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Medical Forum / General / Pharmacy / April 2004Who knows more about Drugs: Pharmacologist or Pharmacist?
Answers plz? Well it depends on what you want to know. If you want to know about generics, common drugs, laws, and what trade names a drug has, you want a pharmacist. If you want to know about physiological mechanisms, metabolism yada yada, you want a pharmacologist. > Answers plz? I don't disgree with what you said, but it makes pharmacists sound like clerks. A pharmacist (a good one anyway) is really quite a versatile person, sort of a part-clinician (yes pharmacists are supposed to know physiological mechanisms, metabolism yada yada) and part-chemical engineer (in the experimentalist sense, when pharmacists make compounds) and at the same time has to be savvy with rules and regulations. Pharmacology is essentially an academic discipline even though they sometimes work in industry. To me the closest juxtaposition of pharmacist/pharmacologist is musician/musicologist. Nobody is going to say a musician is good with just names and rules. The musicologist maybe ...  SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > Well it depends on what you want to know. If you want to know about > generics, common drugs, laws, and what trade names a drug has, you want a > pharmacist. If you want to know about physiological mechanisms, metabolism > yada yada, you want a pharmacologist. > > > Answers plz? In theory yes, but most pharmacists don't compound there own preparations, and they don't check prescription. I think a better comparison would be between a neurologist and a cognitive neuroscientist. One is the clinical application of the other. > I don't disgree with what you said, but it makes pharmacists sound > like clerks. A pharmacist (a good one anyway) is really quite a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Nobody is going to say a musician is good with just names and rules. > The musicologist maybe ... Huh... I compound stuff all the time. I also check prescriptions. Were you referring to pharmacologists? Well you're lucky, in my country pharmacists don't compound things at all really anymore. Maybe 1 out of 1000 customers. > Huh... I compound stuff all the time. I also check prescriptions. > Were you referring to pharmacologists? is a pharmacologist not a specialised pharmacist so he/she would know more about a certain topic/dicipline? No pharmacology isn't a derivative of pharmacy. Think of it this way: pharmacy is a profession and pharmacology is a scientific discipline. A cruder description is that pharmacy is more practice-oriented and pharmacology is more research-oriented. They don't really differ in terms of the range of science they know. SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > is a pharmacologist not a specialised pharmacist so he/she would know > more about a certain topic/dicipline? > No pharmacology isn't a derivative of pharmacy. Think of it this way: > pharmacy is a profession and pharmacology is a scientific discipline. A > cruder description is that pharmacy is more practice-oriented and > pharmacology is more research-oriented. They don't really differ in terms > of the range of science they know. Reminds me of a saying we had in the math program at the University of Waterloo: "Engineering is to physics what reality is to mathematics." Tom --- I agree completely. Sometimes being a pharmacists makes you wonder why you went through four years of university at all. I also sometimes like to call pharmacists "pharmaceutical engineers." SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > > No pharmacology isn't a derivative of pharmacy. Think of it this way: > > pharmacy is a profession and pharmacology is a scientific discipline. A [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Tom > --- I don't know what pharmacists do in your neighbourhood, but anyone who gets prescriptions from a dermatologists will have to compound a few things (as an example). And any pharmacists who don't check prescriptions are asking for a date with their local college's disciplinary committee. I mean, checking prescriptions is one the most primary tasks for pharmacists... SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > In theory yes, but most pharmacists don't compound there own > preparations, and they don't check prescription. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Nobody is going to say a musician is good with just names and rules. > > The musicologist maybe ... Well when you say checking? Do you mean, reading to decifer what in the crap the doctor wrote, and to make sure 5 x alprazolam hasn't been changed to 50? Or actually? "Hmmm, I remember about a month ago this patient bought some OTC calcium supplements, its possible that that might chelate with this dexedrine they've got a prescription for, I should look that up" > I don't know what pharmacists do in your neighbourhood, but anyone who > gets prescriptions from a dermatologists will have to compound a few > things (as an example). And any pharmacists who don't check > prescriptions are asking for a date with their local college's > disciplinary committee. I mean, checking prescriptions is one the > most primary tasks for pharmacists... Both actually. There are different aspects to a pharmacist's job. Yes, you have often to make out poor handwriting, also at the same time you have to evaluate the suitability of the drug, dose, dosage form, etc. in relation to the patient's medical history and other drugs he/she is taking. In the community, this is often limited by a lack of access to other health care workers, but if the insinuation is whether pharmacists are just passive pencil-pushers who deal drugs, then the answer is a resounding "no". And regulatory bodies also hold pharmacists to substantial clinical standards (in North America anyway, but I'm sure that's likely the case elsewhere): let me assure you quality assurance reviews are no cakewalks! I'm just not sure about amphetamines chelating calcium ... SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > Well when you say checking? Do you mean, reading to decifer what in the > crap the doctor wrote, and to make sure 5 x alprazolam hasn't been changed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > disciplinary committee. I mean, checking prescriptions is one the > > most primary tasks for pharmacists... *Shrug* I've worked in a pharmacy, I haven't seen much to agree with you. How can a pharmacist be really that active when a patient is likely to go to one doctor, but many pharmacies? > Both actually. There are different aspects to a pharmacist's job. > Yes, you have often to make out poor handwriting, also at the same [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you quality assurance reviews are no cakewalks! I'm just not sure > about amphetamines chelating calcium ... asd@dsad.com (Sam) smacked the keyboard and out came... >Who knows more about Drugs: >Pharmacologist or Pharmacist? The same. A pharmacologist knows a lot about a little number of drugs, and a pharmacist knows a little about large number of drugs. (simple questions ---> simple answers) I wonder who should get offended here, the pharmacologists or pharmacists ... ;-) SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > asd@dsad.com (Sam) smacked the keyboard and out came... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (simple questions ---> simple answers) Wow I didn't know this simple question could generate such a long thread. The reason I asked is that I'm a pharmacy student at the University of Alberta, and I'm just wondering if at the end of my studies, I'll have the hardcore drug knowledge (metabolism, pharmacokinetics yada yada) of a pharmacologist along with the clinical knowledge of a pharmacist, or will I lack some aspects of drug knowledge that I will have to compliment on my own thru self study. Aaarg anyways. Back to studying for finals. I'm trying to get all these different CYPs thru my head :( Sam > asd@dsad.com (Sam) smacked the keyboard and out came... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (simple questions ---> simple answers) Don't worry, everybody feels the same way near the end of undergrad pharmacy, how we are *ever* going to know enough to deal with clinical problems, but when you get down to it, you'll be fine. My point is that for almost all clinical work, you only need to know the "science" in a practical way (e.g., what are the 3A4 inhibitors, what receptors does a beta-blocker work on and what are the physiological effects of this interaction), not how the binding of atenolol to a beta2 receptor on the cell surface leads to dissociation of a G protein subunit which in turn activates adenylate cyclase and an intracellular calcium cascade etc. etc. etc. Good luck on your finals! And while you were talking about CYPs, remember they love to ask about erythromycins and warfarin for interactions. Gregory SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 2S2 > Wow I didn't know this simple question could generate such a long thread. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > (simple questions ---> simple answers) > not how the binding of atenolol to a beta2 receptor > on the cell surface leads to dissociation of a G protein subunit which > in turn activates adenylate cyclase and an intracellular calcium > cascade etc. etc. etc. BUT THATS THE BEST BIT!!! lol. I like pharmacology so much because it's a rather unrestricting area. I can go from clinical pharmacology, to molecular biology to behavioural pharmacology... Right now I'm trying to write a powerpoint presentation on Regulation of dopamine D1 receptor function by physical interaction with the NMDA receptors. Pei L, Lee FJ, Moszczynska A, Vukusic B, Liu F J Neurosci. 2004 Feb 4;24(5):1149-58. and Potentiation of NMDA receptor currents by dopamine D1 receptors in prefrontal cortex. Chen G, Greengard P, Yan Z. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Feb 24;101(8):2596-600 The Proccedings of the national academnt paper is giving me a real headache... I'm sure they've scewed it up, one one hand injecting Ca2+ /Calmodulin into the cell decreases the measured effect, but then injecting calmodulin inhibitors into the cell also blocks the effect... ...makes me angry. BilZ0r@TAKETHISOUThotmail.com (BilZ0r) thought thoughts so recondite his brain started to smoke, and out came... .. ... ... ... .. ... ... ... .. ... ... ... I like pharmacology so much because it's a rather unrestricting area. I can go from clinical pharmacology, to molecular biology to behavioural pharmacology... Right now I'm trying to write a powerpoint presentation on Regulation of dopamine D1 receptor function by physical interaction with the NMDA receptors. Pei L, Lee FJ, Moszczynska A, Vukusic B, [SNIP-SNIP a lot of esoteric knowledge that only pharmacologists would get excited about]...makes me angry. .. ... ... ... .. ... ... ... .. ... ... ... This reminds me of something one of my professors said. He was a well liked fellow, told lots of rambling stories in his lectures, but knew his stuff and gave challenging exams. He was a frumpled sort of fellow, a VietNam vet, and carried a bottle of NTG that he said he should probably get replaced. He made a remark one day; I'll try to paraphrase it: "I used to say that this course will separate the men from the boys, but now that's politically incorrect and I can't say it. So then I used to say this course will separate the good pharmacists from the bad pharmacists. But now I believe that this course will separate the people who get As, and go on to become good pharmacists, from those who get Bs, and go on to become good pharmacists, from those who get Cs, and go on to become good pharmacists." (Gary Carlson) There was a fair amount of wisdom there. (Nevertheless, try to get an A.) Somewhat sad, but what your prof said is very true. There's no good correlation between academic excellence and being good at being a pharmacist. You are often judged how good a pharmacist just based on how well you can disseminate the latest review articles, which has little to do with how well you learned that medicinal chemistry or pharmaceutics or pharmacology "nonsense" in school. And perception, in the health care circle, is unfortunately everything. SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 2S2 > BilZ0r@TAKETHISOUThotmail.com (BilZ0r) thought thoughts so recondite his > brain started to smoke, and out came... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > There was a fair amount of wisdom there. (Nevertheless, try to get an > A.) > Potentiation of NMDA receptor currents by dopamine D1 receptors in > prefrontal cortex. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > /Calmodulin into the cell decreases the measured effect, but then > injecting calmodulin inhibitors into the cell also blocks the effect... Well it is PNAS! Any better it'll have to appear in Nature or Science! Seriously now, PNAS is a really high-impact journal, but I often find its articles next to unuseable because of the text limit its imposes. The methods are so brief and abbreviated that you cannot hope to reproduce the experiments with that information alone. But then again I should make the disclaimer that metabotropic GPCRs are nowhere near my area ... Good luck! SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 2S2 > > not how the binding of atenolol to a beta2 receptor > > on the cell surface leads to dissociation of a G protein subunit which [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > ...makes me angry. Back when I was a grasshopper I asked a psychologist which was smarter, a rat or a pigeon. She displayed a Yoda-like smile and said that both were supremely well suited for their ecological niches. But why one doctor, but many pharmacies? Price and convenience, my friend. In a big city (like Toronto) with no shortage of pharmacies, people will usually go to whoever is the closest and/or cheapest. It's one of those things that do make community pharmacy frustrating (and superficial, like we're the 7-11 for drugs) sometimes, but until the government gets into the drug scene for everyone, that's the way it's going to be. People who take a lot of (or specialized) meds, though, are more likely to stick with one or a very small number of pharmacies, and that's (in my experience) when you can do the most clinically. Where are you, if you don't mind me asking? SignatureGregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm. Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario > *Shrug* I've worked in a pharmacy, I haven't seen much to agree with you. > How can a pharmacist be really that active when a patient is likely to go [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > you quality assurance reviews are no cakewalks! I'm just not sure > > about amphetamines chelating calcium ... New Zealand. A Pharmacology Masters Student. > But why one doctor, but many pharmacies? Price and convenience, my > friend. In a big city (like Toronto) with no shortage of pharmacies, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Where are you, if you don't mind me asking? Nice to meet you! By the way have you noticed how many faculty members in faculties (or departments) of pharmacy and pharmcology are cross-appointed? Gregory > New Zealand. A Pharmacology Masters Student. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Where are you, if you don't mind me asking? Well my pharmacology proffesors teach departments throughout the university, pharmacology... medicine, pharmacy, psychiatry... We've only got one pharmacy/pharmacology appointment. > Nice to meet you! By the way have you noticed how many faculty > members in faculties (or departments) of pharmacy and pharmcology are [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > >> > Where are you, if you don't mind me asking? |
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