Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2008
Taka and Mont,y, please describe your supposedly EFA deficient diets!
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Matti Narkia - 14 Aug 2008 14:45 GMT Taka and Monty have made some outrageous claims about the imaginary benefits of essential fatty acid deficiency (EFAD) and meat acid, which is elevated especially in omega-6 deficiency. It is well known that EFAD is extremely difficult to achieve and that it is accompanied with various symptoms, see for example
Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency <http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/omega3fa/index.html#deficiency>
"Clinical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency include a dry scaly rash, decreased growth in infants and children, increased susceptibility to infection and poor wound healing (20). Omega-3, omega-6 and omega-9 fatty acids compete for the same desaturase enzymes. The desaturase enzymes show preference for the different series of fatty acids in the following order: omega-3 > omega-6 > omega-9. Consequently, synthesis of the omega-9 fatty acid eicosatrienoic acid (20:3n-9) increases only when dietary intakes of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids are very low (21). A plasma eicosatrienoic acid:arachidonic acid (triene:tetraene) ratio greater than 0.2 is generally considered indicative of essential fatty acid deficiency (20, 22). In patients who were given total parenteral nutrition containing fat-free glucose amino acid mixtures, biochemical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency developed in as little as 7-10 days (23). In these cases, the continuous glucose infusion resulted in high circulating insulin levels, which inhibited the release of essential fatty acids stored in adipose tissue. When glucose-free amino acid solutions were used, parenteral nutrition up to 14 days did not result in biochemical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency. Essential fatty acid deficiency has also been found to occur in patients with chronic fat malabsorption (24) and cystic fibrosis (25). Recently, it has been proposed that essential fatty acid deficiency may play a role in the pathology of protein energy malnutrition (21).
Omega-3 Fatty Acid Deficiency
At least one case of isolated omega-3 fatty deficiency has been reported. A young girl who received intravenous lipid emulsions with very little ALA developed visual problems and sensory neuropathy, which resolved when she was switched to an emulsion containing more ALA (26). Plasma DHA concentrations decrease when omega-3 fatty acid intake is insufficient, but no cutoff values have been established. Isolated omega-3 fatty acid deficiency does not result in increased plasma triene:tetraene ratios (1)."
(eicosatrienoic acid = mead acid)
Questions for Taka and Monty:
1) Do have any symptoms described here? If not, why do you think that you are EFA deficient?
2) Have you had your mead acid and AA levels and mead acid / AA ratio tested. If you have, what were the results? If not, why do you think that you are EFA deficient?
Please describe also your average daily or weekly diet in detail, so that we can assess how much EFAs you actually get.
 Signature Matti Narkia
http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/Nutrition
monty1945@lycos.com - 14 Aug 2008 19:31 GMT Go to my free site. Search google for thescientificdebateforum and click on the link. On my site, you will see my diet described, claims from "experts" about how much dietary PUFAs you need to avoid "EFA deficiency," old, but on-point experiments cited that are relevant to this question (as well as more recent ones that are not on point, because nobody is doing these experiments any longer), and lastly, the changes I've observed that are consistent with "EFA deficiency" notions, though nothing I'd describe as unhealthy.
Moreover, I'm willing to be tested for "EFA" status (depending upon what the particular test entails), provided that someone else pays for it if I am found to have markers consistent with "EFA deficiency," which is what the tests measure. Are you willing to "put your money where your mouth is" on this offer, Matti?
Taka - 18 Aug 2008 09:39 GMT > Questions forTakaandMonty: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Please describe also your average daily or weekly diet in detail, > so that we can assess how much EFAs you actually get. I have just posted an "update" on my "EFAD" experience on Monty's site. You can go there and read my history under the thread "... coconut oil safe?". I don't consider myself EFAD but compared to the past I have greatly reduced the Omega-3 as well as Omega-6 FA in my body with many benefits which fully compensate for the possible drawbacks such as "skin problems" or "impaired reproductive capacity". I believe that the key point is to properly dose Omega-6 according to your level of activity and not to worry about any Omega-3 intake while trying to avoid anything containing refined vegetable oils or their hydrogenated derivatives. The background intake of Omega-6/3 from the real foods like meat, fruit and vegetables will take care of any possible EFAD condition you may run into. Exceptions are sportsmen under heavy training and pregnant women who could possibly supplement with the "EFAs" like putting some grapeseed or evening primose oil on their salads for the former and eating some canned sardines or avocados if they have cravings for fatty fish for the latter.
Taka
jay - 18 Aug 2008 23:01 GMT > ... my "EFAD" experience on Monty's site. A couple of your symtoms could be related to environmental pollutants.
- osteoarthritic knees / aching joints [see abstract below] - eroding teeth at base [see abstract below]
- night sweat - white furring of the tongue - nighttime urination
Positive associations of serum concentration of polychlorinated biphenyls or organochlorine pesticides with self-reported arthritis, especially rheumatoid type, in women. BACKGROUND: Persistent organic pollutants (POPs) can influence the immune system, possibly increasing the risk of rheumatoid arthritis (RA). In addition, as metabolic change due to obesity has been proposed as one mechanism of osteoarthritis (OA), POPs stored in adipose tissue may be also associated with OA. OBJECTIVE: Our goal in this study was to examine associations of background exposure to POPs with arthritis among the general population. DESIGN: We investigated cross-sectional associations of serum POPs concentrations with the prevalence of self-reported arthritis in 1,721 adults >/= 20 years of age in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 1999-2002. RESULTS: Among several POPs, dioxin-like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) or nondioxin-like PCBs were positively associated with arthritis in women. After adjusting for possible confounders, odds ratios (ORs) were 1.0, 2.1, 3.5, and 2.9 across quartiles of dioxin- like PCBs (p for trend = 0.02). Corresponding figures for nondioxin- like PCBs were 1.0, 1.6, 2.6, and 2.5 (p for trend = 0.02). Organochlorine (OC) pesticides were also weakly associated with arthritis in women. For subtypes of arthritis, respectively, RA was more strongly associated with PCBs than was OA. The adjusted ORs for RA were 1.0, 7.6, 6.1, and 8.5 for dioxin-like PCBs (p for trend = 0.05), 1.0, 2.2, 4.4, and 5.4 for nondioxin-like PCBs (p for trend < 0.01), and 1.0, 2.8, 2.7, and 3.5 for OC pesticides (p for trend = 0.15). POPs in men did not show any clear relation with arthritis. CONCLUSIONS: The possibility that background exposure to PCBs may be involved in pathogenesis of arthritis, especially RA, in women should be investigated in prospective studies. PMID: 17589595
Developmental dental toxicity of dioxin and related compounds--a review. Non-halogenated polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and halogenated aromatic hydrocarbons such as polychlorinated dibenzo-p- dioxins and dibenzofurans (PCDD/Fs, or dioxins), and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) are wide-spread environmental pollutants that have unequivocal adverse effects on different species, including humans. Accidental exposure of children to high amounts of PCDD/Fs has been found to be associated with developmental enamel defects and missing permanent teeth. An association between dioxin exposure via mother's milk and developmental mineralisation defects in permanent first molars was also found in otherwise healthy Finnish children born in the late 1980s but not in those born in the late 1990s. Results of experimental animal studies in vivo and in vitro are compatible with findings in human teeth. In addition to the dose, dental effects of the most toxic dioxin congener, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD), essentially depend on the stage of tooth development at the time of exposure. Accordingly, TCDD arrests early rat and mouse molar tooth development and in more advanced teeth it interferes with mineralisation of enamel and dentine and arrests root development. Expression of the specific dioxin receptor (AhR) in dental cells at TCDD-sensitive stages of tooth development suggests that the dental, like other developmental effects of TCDD, are mediated by the AhR. Early effects also depend on the epidermal growth factor receptor and involve enhanced apoptosis. The lowest TCDD dose (30ng/kg) causing adverse dental effects in rats has been estimated to result in maternal tissue levels approaching the high end of human background range and human milk PCDD/F levels that were associated with enamel defects in children. However, because of the uniform and clear decline in background dioxin and PCB levels in mother's milk during the last twenty years, dioxins are currently likely to be of small or no account as regards developmental dental defects in children. Even so, this is not the case after heavy exposure and little is known about the possible synergistic effects of these toxicants with other chemicals interfering with tooth development. PMID: 17243464
Inhibition of dioxin effects on bone formation in vitro by a newly described aryl hydrocarbon receptor antagonist, resveratrol. Aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR) ligands are environmental contaminants found in cigarette smoke and other sources of air pollution. The prototypical compound is TCDD (2,3,7, 8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin), also known as dioxin. There is an increasing body of knowledge linking cigarette smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease, but the direct effects of smoke-associated aryl hydrocarbons on bone are not well understood. Through the use of resveratrol (3,5,4'- trihydroxystilbene), a plant antifungal compound that we have recently demonstrated to be a pure AhR antagonist, we have investigated the effects of TCDD on osteogenesis. It was postulated that TCDD would inhibit osteogenesis in bone-forming cultures and that this inhibition would be antagonized by resveratrol. We employed the chicken periosteal osteogenesis (CPO) model, which has been shown to form bone in vitro in a pattern morphologically and biochemically similar to that seen in vivo, as well as a rat stromal cell bone nodule formation model. In the CPO model, alkaline phosphatase (AP) activity was reduced by up to 50% (P<0.01 vs control) in the presence of 10(-9) M TCDD and these effects were reversed by 10(-6) M resveratrol (P<0.05 vs TCDD alone). TCDD-mediated inhibition of osteogenesis was restricted primarily to the osteoblastic differentiation phase (days 0-2) as later addition did not appear to have any effects. Message levels for important bone-associated proteins (in the CPO model) such as collagen type I, osteopontin, bone sialoprotein and AP were inhibited by TCDD, an effect that was antagonized by resveratrol. Similar findings were obtained using the rat stromal bone cell line. TCDD (at concentrations as low as 10(-10)M) caused an approximately 33% reduction in AP activity, which was abrogated by 3. 5x10(-7) M resveratrol. TCDD also induced a marked reduction in mineralization ( approximately 75%) which was completely antagonized by resveratrol. These data suggest that AhR ligands inhibit osteogenesis probably through inhibition of osteodifferentiation and that this effect can be antagonized by resveratrol. Since high levels of AhR ligands are found in cigarette smoke, and further since smoking is an important risk factor in both osteoporosis and periodontal disease, it may be postulated that AhR ligands are the component of cigarette smoke linking smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease. If so, resveratrol could prove to be a promising preventive or therapeutic agent for smoking-related bone loss. PMID: 11018766
futurespeak - 19 Aug 2008 15:08 GMT > > ... my "EFAD" experience on Monty's site. > [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > linking smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease. If so,resveratrolcould prove to be a promising preventive or therapeutic > agent for smoking-related bone loss. PMID: 11018766 Resveratrol can help you to lead a long and healthy life so says Dr. Oz. Red and wine alone does not supply enough resveratrol to achieve the full range of benefits. You need to take high potency resveratrol supplements to achieve the results documented in scientific studies. Resveratrol Supplements can also help you control your weight naturally by increasing energy, reducing cravings, and limiting your appetite. According to Wikipedia, Consumer Lab, an independent dietary supplement and over the counter products evaluation organization, published a report on 13 November 2007 on the popular resveratrol supplements. The organization reported that there exists a wide range in quality, dose, and price among the 13 resveratrol products evaluated. The actual amount of resveratrol contained in the different brands range from 2.2mg for Revatrol, which claimed to have 400mg of "Red Wine Grape Complex", to 500mg for Biotivia.com Transmax, which is consistent with the amount claimed on the product's label. Prices per 100mg of resveratrol ranged from less than $.30 for products made by Biotivia.com, jarrow, and country life, to a high of $45.27 for the Revatrol brand.
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