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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2008

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Taka and Mont,y, please describe your supposedly EFA deficient diets!

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Matti Narkia - 14 Aug 2008 14:45 GMT
Taka and Monty have made some outrageous claims about the
imaginary benefits of essential fatty acid deficiency (EFAD) and
meat acid, which is elevated especially in omega-6 deficiency.
It is well known that EFAD is extremely difficult to achieve and
that it is accompanied with various symptoms, see for example

Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency
<http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/omega3fa/index.html#deficiency>

    "Clinical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency include a
    dry scaly rash, decreased growth in infants and children,
    increased susceptibility to infection and poor wound healing
    (20). Omega-3, omega-6 and omega-9 fatty acids compete for
    the same desaturase enzymes. The desaturase enzymes show
    preference for the different series of fatty acids in the
    following order: omega-3 > omega-6 > omega-9. Consequently,
    synthesis of the omega-9 fatty acid eicosatrienoic acid
    (20:3n-9) increases only when dietary intakes of omega-3 and
    omega-6 fatty acids are very low (21). A plasma eicosatrienoic
    acid:arachidonic acid (triene:tetraene) ratio greater than 0.2
    is generally considered indicative of essential fatty acid
    deficiency (20, 22). In patients who were given total
    parenteral nutrition containing fat-free glucose amino acid
    mixtures, biochemical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency
    developed in as little as 7-10 days (23). In these cases, the
    continuous glucose infusion resulted in high circulating insulin
    levels, which inhibited the release of essential fatty acids
    stored in adipose tissue. When glucose-free amino acid solutions
    were used, parenteral nutrition up to 14 days did not result in
    biochemical signs of essential fatty acid deficiency. Essential
    fatty acid deficiency has also been found to occur in patients
    with chronic fat malabsorption (24) and cystic fibrosis (25).
    Recently, it has been proposed that essential fatty acid
    deficiency may play a role in the pathology of protein energy
    malnutrition (21).

    Omega-3 Fatty Acid Deficiency

    At least one case of isolated omega-3 fatty deficiency has been
    reported. A young girl who received intravenous lipid emulsions
    with very little ALA developed visual problems and sensory
    neuropathy, which resolved when she was switched to an emulsion
    containing more ALA (26). Plasma DHA concentrations decrease when
    omega-3 fatty acid intake is insufficient, but no cutoff values
    have been established. Isolated omega-3 fatty acid deficiency
    does not result in increased plasma triene:tetraene ratios (1)."

(eicosatrienoic acid = mead acid)

Questions for Taka and Monty:

1) Do have any symptoms described here? If not, why do you think
   that you are EFA deficient?

2) Have you had your mead acid and AA levels and mead acid / AA
   ratio tested. If you have, what were the results? If not, why
   do you think that you are EFA deficient?

Please describe also your average daily or weekly diet in detail,
so that we can assess how much EFAs you actually get.

Signature

Matti Narkia

http://ma.gnolia.com/groups/Nutrition

monty1945@lycos.com - 14 Aug 2008 19:31 GMT
Go to my free site.  Search google for thescientificdebateforum and
click on the link.  On my site, you will see my diet described, claims
from "experts" about how much dietary PUFAs you need to avoid "EFA
deficiency," old, but on-point experiments cited that are relevant to
this question (as well as more recent ones that are not on point,
because nobody is doing these experiments any longer), and lastly, the
changes I've observed that are consistent with "EFA deficiency"
notions, though nothing I'd describe as unhealthy.

Moreover, I'm willing to be tested for "EFA" status (depending upon
what the particular test entails), provided that someone else pays for
it if I am found to have markers consistent with "EFA deficiency,"
which is what the tests measure.  Are you willing to "put your money
where your mouth is" on this offer, Matti?
Taka - 18 Aug 2008 09:39 GMT
> Questions forTakaandMonty:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Please describe also your average daily or weekly diet in detail,
> so that we can assess how much EFAs you actually get.

I have just posted an "update" on my "EFAD" experience on Monty's
site.  You can go there and read my history under the thread "...
coconut oil safe?".  I don't consider myself EFAD but compared to the
past I have greatly reduced the Omega-3 as well as Omega-6 FA in my
body with many benefits which fully compensate for the possible
drawbacks such as "skin problems" or "impaired reproductive
capacity".  I believe that the key point is to properly dose Omega-6
according to your level of activity and not to worry about any Omega-3
intake while trying to avoid anything containing refined vegetable
oils or their hydrogenated derivatives.  The background intake of
Omega-6/3 from the real foods like meat, fruit and vegetables will
take care of any possible EFAD condition you may run into.  Exceptions
are sportsmen under heavy training and pregnant women who could
possibly supplement with the "EFAs" like putting some grapeseed or
evening primose oil on their salads for the former and eating some
canned sardines or avocados if they have cravings for fatty fish for
the latter.

Taka
jay - 18 Aug 2008 23:01 GMT
> ... my "EFAD" experience on Monty's site.

A couple of your symtoms could be related to environmental
pollutants.

- osteoarthritic knees / aching joints [see abstract below]
- eroding teeth at base [see abstract below]

- night sweat
- white furring of the tongue
- nighttime urination

Positive associations of serum concentration of polychlorinated
biphenyls or organochlorine pesticides with self-reported arthritis,
especially rheumatoid type, in women.
BACKGROUND: Persistent organic pollutants (POPs) can influence the
immune system, possibly increasing the risk of rheumatoid arthritis
(RA). In addition, as metabolic change due to obesity has been
proposed as one mechanism of osteoarthritis (OA), POPs stored in
adipose tissue may be also associated with OA. OBJECTIVE: Our goal in
this study was to examine associations of background exposure to POPs
with arthritis among the general population. DESIGN: We investigated
cross-sectional associations of serum POPs concentrations with the
prevalence of self-reported arthritis in 1,721 adults >/= 20 years of
age in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 1999-2002.
RESULTS: Among several POPs, dioxin-like polychlorinated biphenyls
(PCBs) or nondioxin-like PCBs were positively associated with
arthritis in women. After adjusting for possible confounders, odds
ratios (ORs) were 1.0, 2.1, 3.5, and 2.9 across quartiles of dioxin-
like PCBs (p for trend = 0.02). Corresponding figures for nondioxin-
like PCBs were 1.0, 1.6, 2.6, and 2.5 (p for trend = 0.02).
Organochlorine (OC) pesticides were also weakly associated with
arthritis in women. For subtypes of arthritis, respectively, RA was
more strongly associated with PCBs than was OA. The adjusted ORs for
RA were 1.0, 7.6, 6.1, and 8.5 for dioxin-like PCBs (p for trend =
0.05), 1.0, 2.2, 4.4, and 5.4 for nondioxin-like PCBs (p for trend <
0.01), and 1.0, 2.8, 2.7, and 3.5 for OC pesticides (p for trend =
0.15). POPs in men did not show any clear relation with arthritis.
CONCLUSIONS: The possibility that background exposure to PCBs may be
involved in pathogenesis of arthritis, especially RA, in women should
be investigated in prospective studies. PMID: 17589595

Developmental dental toxicity of dioxin and related compounds--a
review.
Non-halogenated polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and
halogenated aromatic hydrocarbons such as polychlorinated dibenzo-p-
dioxins and dibenzofurans (PCDD/Fs, or dioxins), and polychlorinated
biphenyls (PCBs) are wide-spread environmental pollutants that have
unequivocal adverse effects on different species, including humans.
Accidental exposure of children to high amounts of PCDD/Fs has been
found to be associated with developmental enamel defects and missing
permanent teeth. An association between dioxin exposure via mother's
milk and developmental mineralisation defects in permanent first
molars was also found in otherwise healthy Finnish children born in
the late 1980s but not in those born in the late 1990s. Results of
experimental animal studies in vivo and in vitro are compatible with
findings in human teeth. In addition to the dose, dental effects of
the most toxic dioxin congener, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin
(TCDD), essentially depend on the stage of tooth development at the
time of exposure. Accordingly, TCDD arrests early rat and mouse molar
tooth development and in more advanced teeth it interferes with
mineralisation of enamel and dentine and arrests root development.
Expression of the specific dioxin receptor (AhR) in dental cells at
TCDD-sensitive stages of tooth development suggests that the dental,
like other developmental effects of TCDD, are mediated by the AhR.
Early effects also depend on the epidermal growth factor receptor and
involve enhanced apoptosis. The lowest TCDD dose (30ng/kg) causing
adverse dental effects in rats has been estimated to result in
maternal tissue levels approaching the high end of human background
range and human milk PCDD/F levels that were associated with enamel
defects in children. However, because of the uniform and clear decline
in background dioxin and PCB levels in mother's milk during the last
twenty years, dioxins are currently likely to be of small or no
account as regards developmental dental defects in children. Even so,
this is not the case after heavy exposure and little is known about
the possible synergistic effects of these toxicants with other
chemicals interfering with tooth development. PMID: 17243464

Inhibition of dioxin effects on bone formation in vitro by a newly
described aryl hydrocarbon receptor antagonist, resveratrol.
Aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR) ligands are environmental contaminants
found in cigarette smoke and other sources of air pollution. The
prototypical compound is TCDD (2,3,7, 8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin),
also known as dioxin. There is an increasing body of knowledge linking
cigarette smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease, but the
direct effects of smoke-associated aryl hydrocarbons on bone are not
well understood. Through the use of resveratrol (3,5,4'-
trihydroxystilbene), a plant antifungal compound that we have recently
demonstrated to be a pure AhR antagonist, we have investigated the
effects of TCDD on osteogenesis. It was postulated that TCDD would
inhibit osteogenesis in bone-forming cultures and that this inhibition
would be antagonized by resveratrol. We employed the chicken
periosteal osteogenesis (CPO) model, which has been shown to form bone
in vitro in a pattern morphologically and biochemically similar to
that seen in vivo, as well as a rat stromal cell bone nodule formation
model. In the CPO model, alkaline phosphatase (AP) activity was
reduced by up to 50% (P<0.01 vs control) in the presence of 10(-9) M
TCDD and these effects were reversed by 10(-6) M resveratrol (P<0.05
vs TCDD alone). TCDD-mediated inhibition of osteogenesis was
restricted primarily to the osteoblastic differentiation phase (days
0-2) as later addition did not appear to have any effects. Message
levels for important bone-associated proteins (in the CPO model) such
as collagen type I, osteopontin, bone sialoprotein and AP were
inhibited by TCDD, an effect that was antagonized by resveratrol.
Similar findings were obtained using the rat stromal bone cell line.
TCDD (at concentrations as low as 10(-10)M) caused an approximately
33% reduction in AP activity, which was abrogated by 3. 5x10(-7) M
resveratrol. TCDD also induced a marked reduction in mineralization
( approximately 75%) which was completely antagonized by resveratrol.
These data suggest that AhR ligands inhibit osteogenesis probably
through inhibition of osteodifferentiation and that this effect can be
antagonized by resveratrol. Since high levels of AhR ligands are found
in cigarette smoke, and further since smoking is an important risk
factor in both osteoporosis and periodontal disease, it may be
postulated that AhR ligands are the component of cigarette smoke
linking smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease. If so,
resveratrol could prove to be a promising preventive or therapeutic
agent for smoking-related bone loss. PMID: 11018766
futurespeak - 19 Aug 2008 15:08 GMT
> > ... my "EFAD" experience on Monty's site.
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
> linking smoking to osteoporosis and periodontal disease. If so,resveratrolcould prove to be a promising preventive or therapeutic
> agent for smoking-related bone loss. PMID: 11018766

Resveratrol can help you to lead a long and healthy life so says Dr.
Oz.
Red and wine alone does not supply enough resveratrol to achieve the
full range of benefits. You need to take high potency resveratrol
supplements to achieve the results documented in scientific studies.
Resveratrol Supplements can also help you control your weight
naturally
by increasing energy, reducing cravings, and limiting your appetite.
According to Wikipedia, Consumer Lab, an independent dietary
supplement and over the counter products evaluation organization,
published a report on 13 November 2007 on the popular resveratrol
supplements. The organization reported that there exists a wide range
in quality, dose, and price among the 13 resveratrol products
evaluated. The actual amount of resveratrol contained in the
different brands range from 2.2mg for Revatrol, which claimed to have
400mg of "Red Wine Grape Complex", to 500mg for Biotivia.com
Transmax,
which is consistent with the amount claimed on the product's label.
Prices per 100mg of resveratrol ranged from less than $.30 for
products made by Biotivia.com, jarrow, and country life, to a high of
$45.27 for the Revatrol brand.
 
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