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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2004

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Don't give me no LIP / labile iron pool

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doe - 21 Feb 2004 22:15 GMT
Med Hypotheses. 2004 Mar;62(3):442-5.  Related Articles, Links  

Serum markers of stored body iron are not appropriate markers of health effects
of iron: a focus on serum ferritin.

Lee DH, Jacobs DR Jr.

Experimental studies have consistently shown that iron is a critical catalyst
in generating oxygen free radicals via Fenton chemistry. Nevertheless,
epidemiologic studies conflict on the association between stored body iron
markers and disease outcomes, including coronary heart disease. We hypothesize
that stored body iron markers common in epidemiologic studies, such as serum
ferritin, transferrin saturation, iron, or iron-binding capacity, are
inappropriate to investigate harmful health effects related to iron overload.
Oxygen free radicals are produced only by free iron, but stored body iron
markers reflect iron bound to ferritin or transferrin, which are produced to
sequester catalytically active free iron. Moreover, increased serum ferritin
may occur as a defense mechanism in response to oxidative stress; such increase
might eventually minimize oxidative stress and consequent pathology due to free
iron. Therefore, though highly correlated with stored body iron, a measure of
bound iron will fail to identify any harmful effect, unless it is also a marker
of free iron. It is generally believed that free iron rarely exists, except in
iron-overload with 100% transferrin saturation. However, some recent studies
find non-transferrin bound iron (NTBI) or the intracellular labile iron pool
(LIP) in the presence of triggers disturbing iron homeostasis, such as alcohol
consumption. In contrast to the tight bond in ferritin or transferrin, free
iron is more likely to dissociate from a looser bond. Therefore research on the
relation of iron with disease outcomes should investigate NTBI or the
intracellular LIP. Any positive influence of iron on coronary heart and other
diseases might be observable only when a trigger is present. These factors may
explain why there have been conflicting results between serum markers of stored
body iron and disease outcomes in epidemiological studies.

PMID: 14975519 [PubMed - in process]

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Who loves ya.
Tom
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DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

markd@toad-net.com - 22 Feb 2004 01:28 GMT
We luvs ya Tom.  I love it when our friend Tom shoots himself in the foot
with the fruits of his search engine activity.  The contents of the
current posting just about destroys in large part his whole thesis about
iron storage and disease and disorders in humans.  It says stored iron is
no problem as it is by definition bound and is not a source of "rust", as
Tom likes to say.  It is only free iron that may be a problem and it
appears only rarely, perhaps with an adverse physical trigger.  The
authors consider this reality as to why the reports in the literature are
in great conflict about iron stores and problems.  But of course we never
see the conflicting abstracts, now do we, one wonders why?  This one goes
along nicely with another of his that said it is only iron in red meat
that is related to some problems, while total iron intake and other meat
sources show no such relationshipp.  Which of course suggests right away
it is red meat and not meat or total iron that is the source of theproblem
in the first place.
GMCarter - 22 Feb 2004 12:11 GMT
>We luvs ya Tom.  I love it when our friend Tom shoots himself in the foot
>with the fruits of his search engine activity.  The contents of the
>current posting just about destroys in large part his whole thesis about
>iron storage and disease and disorders in humans.  

Ah--I don't buy your interpretation in the slightest. What it suggests
is that the sensitivity and specificity of currently available blood
tests may be inadequate, although they do note that "Therefore, though
highly correlated with stored body iron, a measure of bound iron will
fail to identify any harmful effect, unless it is also a marker of
free iron." Thus, at least in the abstract, this does not utterly
invalidate the use of markers like ferritin.

Indeed, one may identify other factors such as weakness, sexual
dysfunction, arthralgia, cardiac symptoms, difficulty breathing to
evaluate the relevance of these tests (see abstract below).

Indeed, there are a variety of methods that can be used. A study of
iron overload in African Americans further suggests a potentially
heritable trade of iron retention that may result in overload.

>It says stored iron is
>no problem as it is by definition bound and is not a source of "rust", as
>Tom likes to say.  It is only free iron that may be a problem and it
>appears only rarely, perhaps with an adverse physical trigger.  

Ah--in general, yes. But I think the point is that it occurs in some
chronic ailments. I do disagree with Tom's focus on iron in HCV
disease--I think it is a problem that is significant for a subset of
this population but not necessarily central to disease pathogenesis
overall. By contrast, oxidative stress generally and glutathione
depletion specifically may be more critical.

>The
>authors consider this reality as to why the reports in the literature are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>it is red meat and not meat or total iron that is the source of theproblem
>in the first place.

Excessive consumption of red meat is probably contraindicated for a
significant proportion of the population. Another dimension to that
debate, of course, is the environmental one. Consumption of meat
requires a great deal of arable land and water to feed cattle that is
in excess of the energy produced. Aside from the ethical consideration
of the way animals are raised and slaughtered, the risk of diseases
such as BSE and the increased risk of coronary and vascular diseases,
we must recognize that the overpopulated planet on which we reside
cannot sustain the type of consumption Americans typically engage in.
An interesting table in the recent National Geographic underscores the
differences between US consumption and that in China. Given the clear
cutting of jungles and forests to raise these animals for a few
seasons at most before the land reverts to desert, we are doing our
species and life on the planet a bit of a disservice by indulging
excessively or at all in the consumption of red meat.

        George M. Carter

***
Presse Med. 2003 Nov 8;32(36):1716-23.  Related Articles, Links  

 
[Hereditary haemochromatosis]

[Article in French]

Bismuth M, Aguilar-Martinez P, Michel H.

Service d'hepato-gastro-enterologie, Hopital Saint Eloi, Montpellier.
bismuthmichael@hotmail.com

EPIDEMIOLOGY ADN PHYSIOPATHOLOGY: Hereditary haemochromatosis is the
most common genetic disease in France. Its frequency is on average 1
out of 300 French individuals. It is due to excessive dietary iron
absorption, leading to accumulation of iron in the body. Mutations of
the HFE1 gene are responsible for the majority of the case of
haemochromatosis. FROM A CLINICAL POINT OF VIEW: The first clinical
manifestations (weakness, sexual dysfunction, arthralgia, cardiac
symptoms, dyspnoea on effort) can occur after the age of 30 years in
men and 35 years in women (protected for longer by menstruation,
pregnancy and delivery). In the absence of diagnosis, severe
complications can develop during the 5th decade: nervous breakdown,
arthropathy, heart failure, diabetes mellitus, cirrhosis with risk of
progression towards carcinoma, responsible for handicaps and premature
death. DIAGNOSTIC ELEMENTS: The diagnosis is evoked in the case of an
increase in transferrine saturation (>45%), associated or not with
excessive ferritin plasma levels. It is confirmed by the genetic test,
showing homozygotes for the C282Y mutation or compound heterozygotes
for the C282Y and H63D mutations on the HFE1 gene. RMI quantifies
hepatic iron loading and generally avoids the need for a liver biopsy.
The differential diagnosis must exclude secondary iron overload due to
chronic transfusions in congenital or acquired blood diseases, a
polymetabolic syndrome, chronic viral or alcoholic hepatic diseases
and porphyria cutanea tarda. EFFICIENT TREATMENT: Today,
haemochromatosis is still treated by phlebotomy. This consists in
withdrawing 400 to 500ml of blood every week at the initial depletion
stage and subsequently a maintenance therapy in order to maintain
ferritin levels below 50 ng/ml. Paradoxically and through ignorance,
hereditary haemochromatosis remains a serious disease, although its
diagnosis is easy and the treatment simple and effective.

***
Blood Cells Mol Dis. 2003 Nov-Dec;31(3):310-9.  Related Articles,
Links  

 
Genotypic and phenotypic heterogeneity of African Americans with
primary iron overload.

Barton JC, Acton RT, Rivers CA, Bertoli LF, Gelbart T, West C, Beutler
E.

Southern Iron Disorders Center, G-105, 20220 Brookwood Medical Center
Drive, Birmingham, AL 35209, USA. ironmd@dnamail.com

Primary iron overload may be relatively common in African Americans,
but its cause is incompletely understood. Thus, we evaluated genotype
and phenotype characteristics of unselected African American index
patients with primary iron overload who reside in central Alabama. All
had hepatic iron concentration > or =30 micromol/g dry wt or > or =2.0
g of iron mobilized by phlebotomy to achieve iron depletion. Genotype
analyses were performed in African American control subjects from the
same region. There were 23 patients (19 men, 4 women); mean age at
diagnosis was 52 +/- 12 years (1 SD) (range 32-69 years). Nine (39.1%)
reported that they consumed > or =45 g of ethanol daily; five had
chronic hepatitis C. Eight had some form of hemoglobinopathy or
thalassemia. Mean serum transferrin saturation was 56 +/- 28% (range
15-100%). The geometric mean serum ferritin at diagnosis was 1076
ng/mL [95% confidence interval 297-3473 ng/mL]. Increased stainable
liver iron was observed in hepatocytes only in 4 patients, in
macrophages only in 8 patients, and in hepatocytes and macrophages in
8 patients. The mean quantity of iron mobilized by phlebotomy
(corrected for iron absorbed during treatment) was 5.3 +/- 2.0 g
(range 4.0-8.4 g). Iron removed by phlebotomy was greater in patients
with hemoglobinopathy or thalassemia than in those without these forms
of anemia (6.6 +/- 1.3 g vs 3.9 +/- 1.6 g, respectively; P = 0.0144).
Daily consumption of > or =45 g of ethanol or chronic hepatitis C was
not associated with an increased or decreased amount of
phlebotomy-mobilized iron, on the average. The percentage of index
patients positive for HFE C282Y was greater than that of controls (P =
0.0058). The respective percentages of phenotype positivity for HFE
H63D, D6S105(8), and HLA-A*03 were similar in patients and controls.
HFE S65C, I105T, and G93R were not detected in index or control
subjects. Two of 13 patients were heterozygous for the ferroportin
allele nt 744 G-->T (Q248H), although the phenotype frequency of this
allele was similar in patients and 39 controls. Synonymous ferroportin
alleles were also detected in some patients. The ceruloplasmin
mutation nt 1099C-->T (exon 6; Arg367Cys) was detected in 1 of 2
patients tested. Abnormal alleles of beta-2 microglobulin, Nramp2,
TFR2, hepcidin, or IRP2 alleles were not detected in either of the 2
patients so tested. We conclude that primary iron overload in African
Americans is not the result of the mutation of a single gene. HFE
C282Y, ferroportin 744 G-->T, and common forms of heritable anemia
appear to account for increased iron absorption or retention in some
patients.
markd@toad-net.com - 23 Feb 2004 18:50 GMT
"Ah--I don't buy your interpretation in the slightest. What it suggests"

It was not my interpretation, only my restatement of the abstract with
regard to our friend's thesis, the authors are the one's to address your
observations.  It, as stated, contradics the main thrust of his these and
the ironny, pun intended, was too much to pass.  He plucks hits on iron in
biomed abstracts as support for his religious thesis, no one is
questioning that iron can be toxic at certain levels and situations, as
any number of other substances. But, in this case my thesis is supported
he doesn't understand/or doesn't read carefully the contents but just
slaps it in this and other ngs if it has some biomed inmplication.
GMCarter - 24 Feb 2004 09:57 GMT
>"Ah--I don't buy your interpretation in the slightest. What it suggests"
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>he doesn't understand/or doesn't read carefully the contents but just
>slaps it in this and other ngs if it has some biomed inmplication.

I understand the distinction you are making. So, without trying to be
TOO Pollyanna--you are both correct to a certain extent. That "extent"
is defined by where the rubber hits the road: the individual. In some
people, iron is lacking (e.g., menstruating women). In others, it is a
problem (e.g., and in general only, adult men, post-menopausal women).

And, too, with diseases--in iron-deficiency anemia, LACK of iron is
the problem. In hemochromatosis, iron IS the problem. In other
diseases, its role may be more variable, e.g., hepatitis C, where
excess unbound iron may result in added oxidative stress in a disease
whose progression is already intimately tied to inflammatory
processes.

        George M. Carter
Manky Badger - 24 Feb 2004 15:23 GMT
> I understand the distinction you are making.

> And, too, with diseases--in iron-deficiency anemia, LACK of iron is
> the problem.

My mate Tommy assures me there ain't no such animal !!

MB
GMCarter - 25 Feb 2004 00:36 GMT
>> I understand the distinction you are making.
>
>> And, too, with diseases--in iron-deficiency anemia, LACK of iron is
>> the problem.
>
>My mate Tommy assures me there ain't no such animal !!

Excellent. I trust Tommy has rigorous science and logic to back up his
claims that he will share with us here!

In the meantime, other sources persist in recognizing its existence.
E.g., http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000584.htm

or perhaps:
http://www.pitt.edu/~super1/lecture/lec0641/

        George M. Carter
Manky Badger - 25 Feb 2004 17:37 GMT
> >> I understand the distinction you are making.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Excellent. I trust Tommy has rigorous science and logic to back up his
> claims that he will share with us here!

Why not ask him - good luck !!
doe - 25 Feb 2004 11:17 GMT
>Subject: Re: Don't give me no LIP / labile iron pool
>From: "Manky Badger" mb@freeserve.puritan.co.uk
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>MB

ONLY in .. starving .. people ..
OR .. people with internal bleeding or malabsorption ..

That would leave very few people .. no way near the numbers which the medical
profession would have us believe.
Not enough to in any way warrant adding iron to our foods / flour.

http://herbivore.7h.com/anemia.html

EVERYTHING they thought about anemia is being overturned.

Those demographics .. women / children being TARGETED  by adding iron to our
foods have been found to be NOT .. anemic .. at .. all ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Signature

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

Manky Badger - 25 Feb 2004 17:41 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Don't give me no LIP / labile iron pool
> >From: "Manky Badger" mb@freeserve.puritan.co.uk
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Those demographics .. women / children being TARGETED  by adding iron to our
> foods have been found to be NOT .. anemic .. at .. all ..

How about this Tom:

"One can be deficient in iron, but still not anaemic "
doe - 26 Feb 2004 03:23 GMT
>Subject: Re: Don't give me no LIP / labile iron pool
>From: "Manky Badger" mb@freeserve.puritan.co.uk
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
>"One can be deficient in iron, but still not anaemic "

How about .. "the female of the human species is the ONLY female of a species
which is universally anemic" ..

Yeah .. right ..

I would tend to believe the body is fully capable of managing iron all by
itself.
If it needs iron .. it will absorb iron .. if it does not need iron .. it will
not absorb iron.

Increased consumption of meat leads to increased iron stores .. PROVEN in many
studies.

As to iron deficiency being detrimental .. as to yours 'their' .. take .. on
iron in the body.

I believe you and 'yours' have already 'testified' to 'your' .. abilities.

IE: " It seems we may have hastened the deaths of some of our patients by
giving them prophlactic iron .."

ADMITTINGLY have killed patients DUE TO .. ignorance ..

Ignorance ..

Who loves ya.
Tom
Signature

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

markd@toad-net.com - 26 Feb 2004 14:36 GMT
"IE: " It seems we may have hastened the deaths of some of our patients by
giving them prophlactic iron ..""

As I recall, this was with severly ill hiv patients in specific disease
states, hardly something one can generalize to otherwise healthy people.  
There still remains iron anemia as being near the top of the world's
nutrition and related disease problems.  Just restating iron anemia as a
glass half full or empty does nothing to make it go away.  There are
specific and clear reasons why some people need to consume more iron or to
increase it absorption.  Please also address the article saying stored
iron is not the problem but the rarely occuring free iron.
 
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