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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / June 2008

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Arachidonic Acid - the secret killer

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Taka - 28 Apr 2008 02:47 GMT
For those who like it in pictures:

http://www.biol.sc.edu/~bergerlab/guest%20lectures%20610/DIXON.ppt
monty1945@lycos.com - 28 Apr 2008 03:06 GMT
I had trouble opening it.  Can it be accessed another way?

With regard to AA, it basically makes the body biochemically unstable
(assuming that it is in your cells, rather than the natural Mead
acid), so that minor stresses can cause tremendous damage over the
long run, particularly as "chronic inflammation."  Many have asked me
about the AA in products like meat, but that seems to be a minor
issue, relative to a diet rich in PUFAs and cooked meat (due to HCAs
and other dangerous molecules generated - most of the small amounts of
AA in meat probably don't get very far, because they are changed
during cooking, etc.), and low in antioxidant-rich food items.
Taka - 28 Apr 2008 03:54 GMT
On Apr 28, 11:06 am, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> I had trouble opening it.  Can it be accessed another way?

You need MS PowerPoint or a free viewer or compatible suite such as
the OpenOffice (free from SUN) to open it.  Some viewers are e.g.:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/126492
http://pptfaq.com/FAQ00153.htm
http://www.download.com/PowerPoint-Viewer-2007/3000-9694_4-10742145.html
jay - 02 Jun 2008 23:42 GMT
Taka or Monty, I would be interested in your interpretation of below
abstract:

Comparison of low fat and low carbohydrate diets on circulating fatty
acid composition and markers of inflammation.

Abnormal distribution of plasma fatty acids and increased inflammation
are prominent features of metabolic syndrome. We tested whether these
components of metabolic syndrome, like dyslipidemia and glycemia, are
responsive to carbohydrate restriction. Overweight men and women with
atherogenic dyslipidemia consumed ad libitum diets very low in
carbohydrate (VLCKD) (1504 kcal:%CHO:fat:protein = 12:59:28) or low in
fat (LFD) (1478 kcal:%CHO:fat:protein = 56:24:20) for 12 weeks. In
comparison to the LFD, the VLCKD resulted in an increased proportion
of serum total n-6 PUFA, mainly attributed to a marked increase in
arachidonate (20:4n-6), while its biosynthetic metabolic intermediates
were decreased. The n-6/n-3 and arachidonic/eicosapentaenoic acid
ratio also increased sharply. Total saturated fatty acids and 16:1n-7
were consistently decreased following the VLCKD. Both diets
significantly decreased the concentration of several serum
inflammatory markers, but there was an overall greater anti-
inflammatory effect associated with the VLCKD, as evidenced by greater
decreases in TNF-alpha, IL-6, IL-8, MCP-1, E-selectin, I-CAM, and
PAI-1. Increased 20:4n-6 and the ratios of 20:4n-6/20:5n-3 and n-6/n-3
are commonly viewed as pro-inflammatory, but unexpectedly were
consistently inversely associated with responses in inflammatory
proteins. In summary, a very low carbohydrate diet resulted in
profound alterations in fatty acid composition and reduced
inflammation compared to a low fat diet. PMID: 18046594
Taka - 03 Jun 2008 06:08 GMT
> Taka or Monty, I would be interested in your interpretation of below
> abstract:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> profound alterations in fatty acid composition and reduced
> inflammation compared to a low fat diet. PMID: 18046594

What I think the low carb diet does is to fully turn on the
mitochondria and probably eliminate the defective ones because the
cells which cannot properly oxidize fat to produce energy (if they
just make the free radicals) cannot get enough energy (in the absence
of sugar and the glycolytic pathway) and die.  This can be taken
advantage of in the case of killing cancers which have almost always
mitochondrial defects, overproduce free radicals and thrive on sugar.
On the other hand be warned that you need certain level of oxidative
stress and sugar to produce enough sex hormones to reproduce.  I agree
that AA on its own (if not turned into the inflammatory mediators) is
far less dangerous than the more unstable Omega-3 fatty acids - just
look at how different species increase their maximal lifespan - they
reduce Omega-3s in the membranes while leaving Omega-6 mostly
"untouched".

Taka
Marshall Price - 12 Jun 2008 05:12 GMT
>> Taka or Monty, I would be interested in your interpretation of below
>> abstract:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> reduce Omega-3s in the membranes while leaving Omega-6 mostly
> "untouched".

  But most cells can't live without mitochondria, right?  So you're
saying the cells die on a low-carb diet?  Including fat and muscle
cells?  That makes no sense to me.  Once gone, they're gone for good.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Taka - 12 Jun 2008 16:34 GMT
>    But most cells can't live without mitochondria, right?  So you're
> saying the cells die on a low-carb diet?

Yes, cells with defective or downregulated mitochondria cannot
reproduce well without sugar because they use its glycolysis (under
anaerobic conditions) to produce energy.  Normal stem cells could be
such an example but they seem to survive by entering a quiescent state
and using the little glucose body provides even if you don't ingest
any carbohydrates (liver actually makes sugar from protein by
gluconeogenesis).  But the malignant cells won't cease dividing easily
and overproduce ROS instead of preserving energy what is going to kill
them first under severe sugar deprivation conditions and Omega-3s can
facilitate this process by triggering apoptosis.

>  Including fat and muscle
> cells?  That makes no sense to me.  Once gone, they're gone for good.

Terminally differentiated cells easily switch their mitochondria from
burning sugar to burning fat if the former is unavailable.  The
efficiency of burning fat is lower so the cells additionally amplify
their mitochondria to compensate for this.  If they have defective
mitochondria like cancer cells and amplify them they also amplify the
production of ROS what kills them.  There are no cells without
mitochondria and the brain or muscle cells contain them in large
numbers.  Stem cells like the muscle satellite cells function like a
healthy mitochondria storage and they are injecting them into the
muscle fibers when needed.  Also there is a wonderful process of
healthy mitochondria selection/injection during the oocyte
development.  Defective mitochondria can be removed by the process of
autophagy which some people here like DZ are trying to accomplish by
intermittent fasting.

Taka
MattLB - 13 Jun 2008 13:39 GMT
> >    But most cells can't live without mitochondria, right?  So you're
> > saying the cells die on a low-carb diet?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> them first under severe sugar deprivation conditions and Omega-3s can
> facilitate this process by triggering apoptosis.

Malignant cells dying via apoptosis is a good thing.

> >  Including fat and muscle
> > cells?  That makes no sense to me.  Once gone, they're gone for good.
>
> Terminally differentiated cells easily switch their mitochondria from
> burning sugar to burning fat if the former is unavailable.

There is no switch. Whether burning fat or glucose it's all in the
form of Acetyl CoA by the time the mitochondrion gets going on it.

>  The efficiency of burning fat is lower

In what way? The energy output per molecule is much higher than
glucose.

> There are no cells without mitochondria

Red blood cells have no mitochondria.

MattLB
Taka - 13 Jun 2008 16:39 GMT
> There is no switch. Whether burning fat or glucose it's all in the
> form of Acetyl CoA by the time the mitochondrion gets going on it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In what way? The energy output per molecule is much higher than
> glucose.

Perhaps depending on the chain length ...  Energy (ATP) can be
produced from glucose anaerobically, i.e. without oxygen what means
without mitochondria.  This is impossible with fatty acids so the
energy production from fat is more "mitochondria costly" and requires
complicated biochemistry (membrane bound enzymatic systems).  You need
highly differentiated cells at least in terms of mitochondria to
efficiently produce energy from fat, these are not the malignant cells
which went back to the embryonic state in a sense.

> > There are no cells without mitochondria
>
> Red blood cells have no mitochondria.

You caught me, but I would not consider these true cells because they
have no nuclear DNA/chromosomes either and cannot reproduce (at least
in primates).

Taka
Marshall Price - 14 Jun 2008 20:27 GMT
>> There is no switch. Whether burning fat or glucose it's all in the
>> form of Acetyl CoA by the time the mitochondrion gets going on it.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> have no nuclear DNA/chromosomes either and cannot reproduce (at least
> in primates).

  Of course they're true cells, and the fact that they don't reproduce
is nothing unusual.  Most cells don't reproduce.

  I think you've got to review the Cori cycle to understand how
anaerobic metabolism in muscle and red blood cells relies on the
*liver's* ability to oxidize lactate into pyruvate, and look more
closely into how cancer interferes with apoptosis.  Here's a passage
from /MBOC4/ p1010 on how important and normal apoptosis is:

-----
Programmed cell death (apoptosis)

The cells of a multicellular organism are members of a highly organized
community. The number of cells in this community is tightly regulated -
not simply by controlling the rate of cell division, but also by
controlling the rate of cell death. If cells are no longer needed, they
commit suicide by activating an intracellular death program. This
process is therefore called *programmed cell death,* although it is more
commonly called *apoptosis* (from a Greek word meaning "falling off," as
leaves from a tree).

The amount of apoptosis that occurs in developing and adult animal
tissues can be astonishing. In the developing vertebrate nervous system,
for example, up to half or more of the nerve cells normally die soon
after they are formed. In a healthy adult human, billions of cells die
in the bone marrow and intestine every hour. It seems remarkably
wasteful for so many cells to die, especially as the vast majority are
perfectly healthy at the time they kill themselves. What purposes does
this massive cell death serve?

In some cases, the answers are clear. Mouse paws, for example, are
sculpted by cell death during embryonic development: they start out as
spadelike structures, and the individual digits separate only as the
cells between them die (Figure 17-35). In many other cases, cell death
helps regulate cell numbers. In the developing nervous system, for
example, cell death adjusts the number of nerve cells to match the
number of target cells that require innervation. In all these cases, the
cells die by apoptosis.

In adult tissues, cell death exactly balances cell division. If this
were not so, the tissue would grow or shrink. If part of the liver is
removed in an adult rat, for example, liver cell proliferation increases
to make up for the loss. Conversely, if a rat is treated with the drug
phenobarbital - which stimulates liver cell division (and thereby liver
enlargement) - and then the phenobarbital treatment is stopped,
apoptosis in the liver greatly increases until the liver has returned to
its original size, usually within a week or so.  Thus, the liver is kept
at a constant size through the regulation of both the cell death and the
cell birth rate.

...

The intracellular machinery responsible for apoptosis seems to be
similar in all animal cells. This machinery depends on a family of
proteases that have a cysteine at their active site and cleave their
target proteins at specific aspartic acids. They are therefore called
*caspases.* Caspases are synthesized in the cell as inactive precursors,
or /procaspases,/ which are usually activated by cleavage at aspartic
acids by other caspases (Figure 17-38A). Once activated, caspases
cleave, and thereby activate other procaspases, resulting in an
amplifying proteolytic cascade (Figure 17-38B). Some of the activated
caspases then cleave other key proteins in the cell. Some cleave the
nuclear lamins, for example, causing the irreversible breakdown of the
nuclear lamina; another cleaves a protein that normally holds a
DNA-degrading enzyme (a DNAse) in an inactive form, freeing the DNAse to
cut up the DNA in the cell nucleus. In this way, the cell dismantles
itself quickly and neatly, and its corpse is rapidly taken up and
digested by another cell.

Activation of the intracellular death pathway, like entry into a new
stage of the cell cycle, is usually triggered in a complete, all-or-none
fashion. The protease cascade is not only destructive and
self-amplifying but also irreversible, so that once a cell reaches a
critical point along the path to destruction, it cannot turn back.

...

In the best understood pathway, mitochondria are induced to release the
electron carrier protein /cytochrome c/ (see Figure 14-26) into the
cytosol, where it binds and activates an adaptor protein called *Apaf-1*
(Figure 17-39B). This mitochondrial pathway of procaspase activation is
recruited in most forms of apoptosis to initiate or to accelerate and
amplify the caspase cascade. DNA damage, for example, as discussed
earlier, can trigger apoptosis. This response usually requires p53,
which can activate the transcription of genes that encode proteins that
promote the release of cytochrome /c/ from mitochondria. These proteins
belong to the Bcl-2 family.
-----

  So it's no coincidence that cancerous cells' mitochondria aren't
"healthy." Cancer thrives by interfering with mechanisms in the
mitochondrion which ordinarily would cause the orderly death and
disintegration of the cell, *but* it does so without interfering with
those cell functions it needs to survive and grow.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

jay - 02 Jun 2008 23:44 GMT
Taka and Monty: Could you comment on below abstract?

An arachidonic acid-enriched diet does not result in more colonic
inflammation as compared with fish oil- or oleic acid-enriched diets
in mice with experimental colitis.

Fish oils (FO) - rich in EPA and DHA - may protect against colitis
development. Moreover, inflammatory bowel disease patients have
elevated colonic arachidonic acid (AA) proportions. So far, effects of
dietary AA v. FO on colitis have never been examined. We therefore
designed three isoenergetic diets, which were fed to mice for 6 weeks
preceding and during 7 d dextran sodium sulfate colitis induction. The
control diet was rich in oleic acid (OA). For the other two diets, 1.0
% (w/w) OA was exchanged for EPA+DHA (FO group) or AA. At 7 d after
colitis induction, the AA group had gained weight (0.46 (sem 0.54) g),
whereas the FO and OA groups had lost weight ( - 0.98 (sem 0.81) g and
- 0.79 (sem 1.05) g, respectively; P < 0.01 v. AA). The AA group had
less diarrhoea than the FO and OA groups (P < 0.05). Weight and length
of the colon, histological scores and cytokine concentrations in colon
homogenates showed no differences. Myeloperoxidase concentrations in
plasma and polymorphonuclear cell infiltration in colon were decreased
in the FO group as compared with the OA group. We conclude that in
this mice model an AA-enriched diet increased colonic AA content, but
did not result in more colonic inflammation as compared with FO- and
OA-enriched diets. As we only examined effects after 7 d and because
the time point for evaluating effects seems to be important, the
present results should be regarded as preliminary. Future studies
should further elucidate differential effects of fatty acids on
colitis development in time. PMID: 18205994
jay - 03 Jun 2008 00:16 GMT
Taka and Monty, following abstract seems to support your points.

Arachidonate 5-lipoxygenase promoter genotype, dietary arachidonic
acid, and atherosclerosis.

BACKGROUND: Leukotrienes are inflammatory mediators generated from
arachidonic acid (polyunsaturated n-6 fatty acid) by the enzyme 5-
lipoxygenase. Since atherosclerosis involves arterial inflammation, we
hypothesized that a polymorphism in the 5-lipoxygenase gene promoter
could relate to atherosclerosis in humans and that this effect could
interact with the dietary intake of competing 5-lipoxygenase
substrates. METHODS: We determined 5-lipoxygenase genotypes, carotid-
artery intima-media thickness, and markers of inflammation in a
randomly sampled cohort of 470 healthy, middle-aged women and men from
the Los Angeles Atherosclerosis Study. Dietary arachidonic acid and
marine n-3 fatty acids (including a competing 5-lipoxygenase substrate
that reduces the production of inflammatory leukotrienes) were
measured with the use of six 24-hour recalls of food intake. RESULTS:
Variant 5-lipoxygenase genotypes (lacking the common allele) were
found in 6.0 percent of the cohort. Mean (+/-SE) intima-media
thickness adjusted for age, sex, height, and racial or ethnic group
was increased by 80+/-19 microm (95 percent confidence interval, 43 to
116; P<0.001) among carriers of two variant alleles, as compared with
carriers of the common (wild-type) allele. In multivariate analysis,
the increase in intima-media thickness among carriers of two variant
alleles (62 microm, P<0.001) was similar in this cohort to that
associated with diabetes (64 microm, P=0.01), the strongest common
cardiovascular risk factor. Increased dietary arachidonic acid
significantly enhanced the apparent atherogenic effect of genotype,
whereas increased dietary intake of n-3 fatty acids blunted the
effect. Finally, the plasma level of C-reactive protein, a marker of
inflammation, was increased by a factor of 2 among carriers of two
variant alleles as compared with that among carriers of the common
allele. CONCLUSIONS: Variant 5-lipoxygenase genotypes identify a
subpopulation with increased atherosclerosis. The observed diet-gene
interactions further suggest that dietary n-6 polyunsaturated fatty
acids promote, whereas marine n-3 fatty acids inhibit, leukotriene-
mediated inflammation that leads to atherosclerosis in this
subpopulation. PMID: 14702425
Taka - 03 Jun 2008 03:51 GMT
> Taka and Monty, following abstract seems to support your points.
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> mediated inflammation that leads to atherosclerosis in this
> subpopulation. PMID: 14702425

I would say you hit the nail on its head with this study, thanks.  5-
LOX produces the destructive eicosanoids Leukotrienes which are
directly responsible for all the chronic degenerative diseases.  They
are produced in the first "immediate" phase of inflammation.
Originally, it was intended to last just for a short time to help
tissue remodeling or to "melt" the parasites but for different reasons
it is overactivated in the "modern" diseases.  I suspect the
metastatic cancers are also making their ways throughout the body by
melting the tissue collagen with these signaling molecules.  Genetic
predisposition is one way 5-LOX is overactivated, the other may be AA
overload or irritants which constantly stimulate its production.  The
effect of sugar/carbohydrates/insulin well may be to disturb the
balance between 5-LOX and COX-1,2 in the favor of the former, but this
is just my speculation.  It may be good to melt out the old damaged
tissues some times and in spikes, not constantly.  Why exercise is not
proinflammatory may have the same reasons as to why the low carb diet
is not proinflammatory despite of AA release - it is made into the
Prostaglandins rather than Leukotrienes (see my other post about the
"Spaceflight muscle wasting").  That AA increases while you restrict
the carbohydrates is because your body starts mobilizing its fat
stores which are overloaded with linoleic acid (Omega-6, LA) in
novadays people and there is not enough sugar to inhibit the
desaturases and elongases which make it into the longer AA.  It's
foolish to think Omega-3/fish oil will protect you from the AA-
Leukotriene production because it will do more harm in other ways -
first your GI tract goes ...  2.5% of LA in the diet is not low enough
to lower AA, there is a threshold.  You need to go to about 1% (the
sweet spot, also depends on the level or your physical activity) and
keep it for long enough (2 years!) to deplete the excessive Omega-6
stores in your body.  The appearance of Mead acid is a good marker and
should be measured by all these "expert" researchers in addition to
the Omega-6 and Omega-3 series.

Taka
jay - 03 Jun 2008 00:57 GMT
Taka or Monty, please comment on below abstract which seems to say
that the amount of dietary LA from 2.5 to 17.5% of energy had little
affect on the amount of AA in neutrophil and plasma lipids, but was
decreased by 4g of fish oil.

Simple relationships exist between dietary linoleate and the n-6 fatty
acids of human neutrophils and plasma.

Eicosanoids, the enzymatically oxygenated products of arachidonic acid
(AA), appear to be overproduced in some disorders of inflammation.
Dietary strategies for decreasing tissue AA require information on the
relationships between dietary linoleic acid (LA) and tissue
concentrations of AA. The use of either high- or low-LA spreads and
cooking oils by healthy male volunteers resulted in a range of LA
intakes of 2.5-17.5% of energy, as estimated by diet-diary analysis.
Analysis of LA and AA concentrations in neutrophils and plasma lipid
fractions from these subjects indicated that there were positive
linear relationships between dietary LA and the LA concentrations in
neutrophil phospholipids, plasma triglycerides, and plasma cholesteryl
esters. By contrast, differences in dietary LA within a broad range
were not associated with differences in concentrations of AA in these
same neutrophil and plasma fractions. AA concentrations were decreased
by supplementation of the diet with 4 g fish oil (1.6 g
eicosapentaenoic acid, 0.3 g docosahexaenoic acid). The results
suggest that the LA content of tissue lipids may be used to estimate
LA intake, and the reduction of dietary LA by using standard dietary
strategies is not likely to lead to reduction in tissue AA whereas
this can be accomplished by fish-oil supplementation. PMID: 8379505
jay - 03 Jun 2008 21:18 GMT
Arachidonic acid supplementation dose-dependently reverses the effects
of a butter-enriched diet in rats.

Male Sprague Dawley rats were fed a butter-enriched diet (50% fat) for
2 weeks which was supplemented orally with 9, 18, 36, or 72 mg/day of
ethyl arachidonate for a further 2 weeks. The control group of animals
were fed a 5% fat diet for 4 weeks. Aortic prostacyclin (PGI2)
production, platelet aggregation and thromboxane A2 (TXA2) production
and plasma and aortic phospholipid (PL) fatty acids were measured. 50%
butter-feeding resulted in a significant reduction in aortic PGI2
production and collagen-induced platelet aggregation and TXA2
production. These changes were accompanied by a reduction in plasma
and aortic PL arachidonic acid levels and an increase in
eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), 5,8,11-
eicosatrienoic acid (ETA) and dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (DGLA).
These changes in prostanoid production, platelet aggregation and PL
fatty acid composition were dose-dependently reversed by the daily
oral administration of ethyl arachidonate (9, 18, 36, or 72 mg). The
threshold dose being as little as 9 mg of ethyl arachidonate/rat/day
for reversal of PL fatty acid composition, collagen-induced platelet
aggregation and TXA2 production, and 18 mg of ethyl arachidonate/rat/
day for reversal of aortic PGI2 production. Full reversal was seen
generally with 36 or 72 mg of ethyl arachidonate/rat/day. The data
highlight the responsiveness of tissue eicosanoid production to small
quantities (ppm) of dietary eicosanoid precursors. PMID: 8469684
jay - 04 Jun 2008 01:09 GMT
For several years before my body went haywire, I ate farm-raised
salmon frequently, sometimes for lunch and dinner. According to one
book, at the top of the list, a 4oz serving of farm-raised salmon
delivered a whopping 1,300 mg of AA, an amount that could not be
authorized for human study. Apparently salmon, which normally feed on
vegetation, produce AA very efficiently from grain/soy-based diets.
Can anyone backup this info?

Arachidonic acid-induced hind limb gangrene: a new experimental rat
model of peripheral vascular disease.

The purpose of this study was to investigate the characteristics of
arachidonic acid-induced peripheral vascular disease in rats.
Injecting arachidonic acid (2 mg/leg) into the femoral artery caused
hind limb gangrene. Histopathological examination revealed occlusive
thrombi and marked vascular injury, including denudation of the
endothelium and degeneration of the media in the paw arteries.
Arachidonic acid injection markedly enhanced the platelet response to
both U-46619 and collagen. Although the number of circulating
platelets did not differ between sham-operation rats and arachidonic
acid-injected rats, the numbers of circulating white blood cells and
red blood cells were raised 10 d after arachidonic acid injection.
Thrombocytopenia, induced before arachidonic acid injection, markedly
suppressed arachidonic acid-induced hind limb gangrene in rats. In
addition, the combined administration of aspirin (100 mg/kg/d, p.o.)
and ticlopidine (300 mg/kg/d, p.o.) prevented the progression of
arachidonic acid-induced hind limb gangrene. These results suggest
that platelets are involved in the progression of arachidonic acid-
induced hind limb gangrene. This experimental rat model may be
suitable for developing novel drugs for the treatment of peripheral
vascular disease. PMID: 10220280

Assessment of the arachidonic acid content in foods commonly consumed
in the American diet.
Arachidonic acid (AA) is an extremely important fatty acid involved in
cell regulation. When provided in the diet, it is cogently
incorporated in membrane phospholipids and enhances eicosanoid
biosynthesis in vivo and in vitro; however, controversy exists as to
the levels of AA in food and in the diet. This study determined the
amount of AA in cooked and raw portions of beef (rib eye), chicken
(breast and thigh), eggs, pork (loin), turkey (breast), and tuna; it
compared these results to values published in Agriculture Handbook No.
8 (HB-8). The cooked portions were prepared as described in HB-8. With
the exception of chicken thigh and tuna, the levels of AA (w/w) in the
selected foods analyzed were significantly higher, in general, than
those values published in HB-8. The greatest differences were observed
in beef (raw and cooked), turkey breast (raw and cooked), and pork
(cooked) where AA levels were twice that of the values in HB-8. In
contrast, the AA and n-3 fatty acid contents in tuna were almost half
the HB-8 values. The present data indicate that HB-8 tends to
underreport the amounts of AA in a number of foods commonly consumed
in the American diet, and new initiatives should be considered to
validate and update the current database for fatty acid composition of
foods.

By the way according to nutritiondata.com, which gets it data from
USDA, butter has 0mg of AA :)
Taka - 04 Jun 2008 02:17 GMT
> For several years before my body went haywire, I ate farm-raised
> salmon frequently, sometimes for lunch and dinner. According to one
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> vegetation, produce AA very efficiently from grain/soy-based diets.
> Can anyone backup this info?

The grain-fed cattle does the same.  No wonder people in developed
countries are overloaded with Omega-6 AA.  You are what you eat
especially in the case of the fatty acid types.  For some very
physically active people, the extra AA may be a plus given that they
are "burning" it in muscles for the production of the "good"
prostaglandins and use all ingested carbohydrates for energy
production (like the birds do, flying is very physically demanding
activity).  However, this may only work in younger subjects with
undamaged tissues/cells I believe.

Taka
MattLB - 28 Apr 2008 14:01 GMT
> For those who like it in pictures:
>
> http://www.biol.sc.edu/~bergerlab/guest%20lectures%20610/DIXON.ppt

No surprise to discover it's just another sensationalist Taka heading
that isn't backed up by the link. Inflammation is what is being called
the secret killer, not arachidonic acid,  and while you and Monty have
a very blinkered inflammation = arachidonic acid viewpoint the talk
actually focuses on COX-2 as being the big problem. COX-1 produces
beneficial effects with AA.

One slide even highlights the blind spot you both have, namely that
there has to be a stimulus to trigger phospholipase to release the AA.
It doesn't just happen. AA is literally and metaphorically the
messenger not the cause.

MattLB
Taka - 28 Apr 2008 16:39 GMT
> > For those who like it in pictures:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> MattLB

So tell us, MattLB, could there be a chronic degenerative inflammation
WITHOUT AA?

Taka
MattLB - 29 Apr 2008 15:18 GMT
> > > For those who like it in pictures:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> So tell us, MattLB, could there be a chronic degenerative inflammation
> WITHOUT AA?

"Chronic" and "degenerative" are verbal smokescreens, as inflammation
follows certain pathways which involve the prostaglandins from
arachidonic acid, whether they are long-term or not.

It's equivalent to saying "could there be acid reflux without stomach
acid?". The problem is inappropriate activation of something, not that
it exists at all.

MattLB
Taka - 30 Apr 2008 06:38 GMT
> > > > For those who like it in pictures:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> follows certain pathways which involve the prostaglandins from
> arachidonic acid, whether they are long-term or not.

Destructive phase of a healthy inflammation lasts for a short time and
doesn't cause excessive tissue damage.  With (excessive)AA in your
cells there is inadequate too powerful inflammatory response to mild
stimuli.  Sometimes you don't need any inflammatory response like in
the case of symbiotic intestinal bacteria but AA triggers it.  This
stresses the symbionts so they start fighting back in a vicious cycle
which can be stopped only with antibiotics.

> It's equivalent to saying "could there be acid reflux without stomach
> acid?".

This is not exact, comparing the effects of AA to the effects of Mead
acid is like comparing the acid reflux with Hydrofluoric Acid versus
Hydrochloric acid.  Or like putting rocket fuel instead of gasoline
into your car tank ...

> The problem is inappropriate activation of something, not that
> it exists at all.

It is all about the thresholds and the more AA you have the lower the
threshold is.  As you age more irritants accumulate in the body and
they are triggering the long-term chronic inflammation with AA but not
with the Mead acid/low AA.

Taka
MattLB - 01 May 2008 14:44 GMT
> Destructive phase of a healthy inflammation lasts for a short time and
> doesn't cause excessive tissue damage.  With (excessive)AA in your
> cells there is inadequate too powerful inflammatory response to mild
> stimuli.

This isn't in question, it's what's you call excessive that is.
Excessive glucose causes abnormal glycation of proteins and diabetic
complications, excessive vitamin A kills - and so on for lots of other
examples of molecules that are supposed to be in the body in a certain
amount and cause problems when they exceed it. Your and monty1945's
assertion that we need less (or no) omega3/6 than what is considered
normal is what is in question, not that having more will cause
problems.

> Sometimes you don't need any inflammatory response like in
> the case of symbiotic intestinal bacteria but AA triggers it.

You still need something to cause hydrolysis of the ester bond holding
the AA in the membrane. It doesn't need to be a leukocyte-linked
process, but you need some signal to activate the phospholipase that
starts the AA signalling cascade.

> > It's equivalent to saying "could there be acid reflux without stomach
> > acid?".
>
> This is not exact,

It wasn't supposed to be. The point was that something that is
normally present (stomach acid) can causes specific problems
(ulceration of the oesophagus) when something else triggers a change
in behaviour (reflux).

Maybe excitotoxicity would be a closer match. Brain injury causes
uncontrolled release of excitatory glutamate neurotransmitter that
then overstimulates surrounding neurons. Glutamate in itself isn't
dangerous, nor is AA. Change glutamate to arachidonic acid and
overstimulates to over-inflames if you like, but you still need the
analogue to brain injury to start the whole thing off.

> comparing the effects of AA to the effects of Mead
> acid is like comparing the acid reflux with Hydrofluoric Acid versus
> Hydrochloric acid.  Or like putting rocket fuel instead of gasoline
> into your car tank ...

More shameless hyperbole.

MattLB
Taka - 01 May 2008 17:44 GMT
> > Destructive phase of a healthy inflammation lasts for a short time and
> > doesn't cause excessive tissue damage.  With (excessive)AA in your
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> normal is what is in question, not that having more will cause
> problems.

What is considered normal these days doesn't mean that it was normal
during our evolution.  I am speaking about the refined vegetable PUFA-
rich oils which are present everywhere especially in fast foods.  And
the ludicrous thinking that we need to balance it with even more
chemically unstable PUFAs of the Omega-3 series.  In the old times you
would get your dietary fat from lard or butter (mostly MUFAs or SFAs)
while these days they give it to you in the crust of fried meat which
is basically refined carbohydrates soaked in PUFA-rich oil all
"AGEylated" and oxidized at high temperature.  I agree with Monty that
the human diet in the preindustrial age some 100 years ago resulted in
the appearance of measurable amounts of Mead acid in a healthy human
body.

And I suspect that the aging "program" is driven by AA metabolites
similarly to the developmental program so we may slow down aging and
the damage at old age by reducing AA to the bare minimum if any.

> > Sometimes you don't need any inflammatory response like in
> > the case of symbiotic intestinal bacteria but AA triggers it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> process, but you need some signal to activate the phospholipase that
> starts the AA signalling cascade.

How about stress?  Even mental stress which is abundant in the modern
society.  Better walking without the bomb than trying to protect its
trigger from setting off ...  There are different signals in different
tissues, e.g. simple muscle contraction starts the AA cascade.

> > > It's equivalent to saying "could there be acid reflux without stomach
> > > acid?".
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> overstimulates to over-inflames if you like, but you still need the
> analogue to brain injury to start the whole thing off.

Injuries happen all the time ... with less glutamate you will have
less damage anyway.  Can something else less "dangerous" provide the
function of glutamate - NO.  Can something else provide the function
of AA - YES, Mead acid.  Again comparing oranges to elephants ...

Taka
Taka - 02 May 2008 09:42 GMT
> You still need something to cause hydrolysis of the ester bond holding
> the AA in the membrane. It doesn't need to be a leukocyte-linked
> process, but you need some signal to activate the phospholipase that
> starts the AA signalling cascade.

Other factors releasing AA from the membranes are e.g. sugar and
saturated fatty acids as I have posted on these groups previously
(Monty also mentions AA release while starting the SFA/coconut oil
diet).  It is also released for the signaling purposes during
development and by certain hormones like estrogen.

> Maybe excitotoxicity would be a closer match. Brain injury causes
> uncontrolled release of excitatory glutamate neurotransmitter that
> then overstimulates surrounding neurons. Glutamate in itself isn't
> dangerous, nor is AA. Change glutamate toarachidonicacidand
> overstimulates to over-inflames if you like, but you still need the
> analogue to brain injury to start the whole thing off.

Or you can consume the brain excitotoxin MSG directly and don't even
need the brain injury :-)

BTW Omega-3s are also said to induce the long-term potentiation of
neuronal circuits what certain people consider beneficial or even
essential for improved memory ...  With healthy brain you don't need
to overstimulate it with such things such as AA, DHA or MSG.

Taka
MattLB - 02 May 2008 14:24 GMT
> > You still need something to cause hydrolysis of the ester bond holding
> > the AA in the membrane. It doesn't need to be a leukocyte-linked
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> diet).  It is also released for the signaling purposes during
> development and by certain hormones like estrogen.

Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
released probably reflect confusion about the difference between
intra- and extracellular release. Release of AA from triglycerides in
adipose tissue into the blood is completely different from AA being
released from phospholipids in the cell membrane into the cytoplasm of
a cell.

> > Maybe excitotoxicity would be a closer match. Brain injury causes
> > uncontrolled release of excitatory glutamate neurotransmitter that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Or you can consume the brain excitotoxin MSG directly and don't even
> need the brain injury :-)

It's bit of a myth. The liver will soak up the majority of the
consumed glutamate and turn it into urea and energy.

> BTW Omega-3s are also said to induce the long-term potentiation of
> neuronal circuits what certain people consider beneficial or even
> essential for improved memory ...  With healthy brain you don't need
> to overstimulate it with such things such as AA, DHA or MSG.

The brain has a precise and unusual fatty acid composition which
includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
intake like adipose tissue or blood cells.

MattLB
Taka - 02 May 2008 16:37 GMT
> Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
> response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> released from phospholipids in the cell membrane into the cytoplasm of
> a cell.

Now this is an interesting point I would like to know more about.  I
had the feeling that AA is not used for energy storage in the adipose
tissues.  The shorter Omega-6 version linoleic acid (LA) is used
instead and reflects its dietary intake (this may turn quite dangerous
if you get cancer and start "burning" such LA-rich fat).  Most storage
fat would be normally made from carbohydrates and would be therefore
SFA or MUFA (oleic acid) like the animal lard.  I don't think there is
enough AA in meat to be put into the adipose tissue storage?  Or are
you suggesting that the adipocytes or liver have so robust
desaturation and elongation pathways that a significant amount of
ingested LA is converted into AA for storage?  In my current view most
AA is put into cell and mitochondrial membranes to be used for local
signaling when the cells are mechanically or chemically stressed (e.g.
by nitric oxide or high dose of VitB3).  And it is not only
intracellular matter but the prostaglandins and leukotrienes can
diffuse in tissues some distance (e.g. LTB4 acts as powerful
chemoattractant for the destructive leukocytes).

> > BTW Omega-3s are also said to induce the long-term potentiation of
> > neuronal circuits what certain people consider beneficial or even
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
> intake like adipose tissue or blood cells.

Also interesting that nothing has been reported about the EFAD effects
on brain (in adults).  No neurodegeneration from AA insufficiency but
rather the other way around.  Either the brain has a very good
mechanism holding on to the "EFA" stores or it doesn't need them.
AFAIK EFAD has only effects on skin and this may not even be related
to AA but LA.

Taka
Marshall Price - 04 May 2008 04:06 GMT
>> Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
>> response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Taka

  From /Metabolism at a Glance/, 3rd edition, Chapter 11 ("Metabolism
of glucose to fatty acids and triacylglycerol"), p. 30:

-----
*The pentose phosphate pathway generates NADPH for fatty acid synthesis*

  To reiterate, once the immediate energy demands of the animal have
been satisfied, surplus glucose will be stored in the liver as glycogen.
 When the glycogen stores are full, any surplus glucose molecules will
find the glycolytic pathway restricted at the level of
phosphofructokinase.  Under these circumstances, metabolic flux via the
*pentose phosphate pathway* is stimulated.  This is a complex pathway
generating *glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate,* which then re-enters
glycolysis, thus bypassing the restriction at phosphofructokinase-1.
Because of this bypass, the pathway is sometimes referred to as the
'hexose monophosphate shunt' pathway.

  One very important feature of the pentose phosphate pathway is that
it produces NADPH from NADP+.  NADPH is a hydrogen carrier derived from
the vitamin niacin, and as such is a phosphorylated form of NAD+, the
important functional difference being that, whereas NADH is used for ATP
production, NADPH is used for fatty acid synthesis and other
biosynthetic reactions.

*Fatty acid synthesis and esterification*

  Starting from glucose, the chart shows the metabolic flux via the
pentose phosphate pathway and glycolysis to mitochondrial acetyl CoA,
and hence via citrate to acetyl CoA in the cytosol.  Fatty acid
synthesis is catalysed by the fatty acid synthase complex, which
requires malonyl CoA.  The latter combines with the *acyl carrier
protein (ACP)* to form *malonyl ACP.*  Fatty acid synthesis proceeds via
the cyclical series of reactions as shown in the chart to form
*palmitate* (and also stearate, which is not shown).  However, fat is
stored not as fatty acids but as *triacylglycerols* (triglycerides).
These are made by a series of esterification reactions that combine
three fatty acid molecules with *glycerol 3-phosphate* (see Chapter 25).
-----

  Note that this is only about the synthesis of fatty acids (palmitate
and stearate) from glucose.  The incorporation into adipose tissue of
fatty acids from the diet is a different subject entirely.

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MattLB - 06 May 2008 14:25 GMT
> > Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
> > response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> had the feeling that AA is not used for energy storage in the adipose
> tissues.

Not deliberately, but if there's as much in the diet as monty1945
*suggests* then it will end up in adipose stores because I don't think
the intestinal acyltransferases that attach FA to glycerol are all
that fussy.

> Most storage  fat would be normally made from carbohydrates and would be therefore
> SFA or MUFA (oleic acid) like the animal lard.

I think *most* storage fat comes from the diet, although that
obviously depends on what the diet is.

In terms of burning FA, radiolabelling experiments have shown that the
order is  LNA > LA > oleic > saturated i.e. LNA is the preferred
substrate for beta oxidation enzymes. AA wasn't included in the
experiment so I don't know to what extent it is used as energy rather
than for signalling.

> I don't think there is enough AA in meat to be put into the adipose tissue storage?

I doubt it's significant too, but monty1945 always talks about release
of  AA when switching to his diet and in the absence of a clear
explanation of what he means I'm assuming he means release from tissue
stores into the blood to cause systemic inflammation. If what he
really means is release of prostaglandins from cells then he should
say so.

> Or are
> you suggesting that the adipocytes or liver have so robust
> desaturation and elongation pathways that a significant amount of
> ingested LA is converted into AA for storage?

No, it's a very low conversion rate. For a typical 10g daily
consumption of LA, only 0.06g grams ends up as AA.

> And it is not only
> intracellular matter but the prostaglandins and leukotrienes can
> diffuse in tissues some distance (e.g. LTB4 acts as powerful
> chemoattractant for the destructive leukocytes).

They have to have a limited lifespan/reach or they wouldn't be any use
as a localized targeting aid.

> > The brain has a precise and unusual fatty acid composition which
> > includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> rather the other way around.  Either the brain has a very good
> mechanism holding on to the "EFA" stores or it doesn't need them.

Low EPA is associated with depression, I believe, but in general I'd
suspect that the brain did indeed hold on to FA better than (or at the
expense of) other tissues. A gradual brain-wide decline in efficiency
may not be so noticeable as areas of scaly skin.

MattLB
Taka - 06 May 2008 16:37 GMT
> > > Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
> > > response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> experiment so I don't know to what extent it is used as energy rather
> than for signalling.

Perhaps the body knows what is dangerous molecule and tends to get rid
of it first.  This could also explain no ill effects of high Omega-3
intake in the "paleo low carb people" who run mostly on fat (ketosis)
but deleterious effects (such as the metabolic syndrome) in the high
carb + PUFA sedentary crowd.

> > I don't think there is enough AA in meat to be put into the adipose tissue storage?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> really means is release of prostaglandins from cells then he should
> say so.

Prostaglandins can be only made by the inducible COX enzymes but the
more dangerous and destructive leukotrienes are made at least
partially by spontaneous oxidation.  So if AA gets loose in the
tissues it would be primarily converted to leukotienes.  I think he
means that coconut oil somehow stimulates the phospholipase (PLA-2).
In any case there is a spontaneous turnover of AA leading to its
continuous release which is higher in people with high AA content in
membranes or under different stress conditions.  I don't think the
triglyceride-bound form of AA as a transport vehicle in the blood is
dangerous in terms of forming the signaling molecules.

> > Or are
> > you suggesting that the adipocytes or liver have so robust
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No, it's a very low conversion rate. For a typical 10g daily
> consumption of LA, only 0.06g grams ends up as AA.

But this is enough to completely block the Mead acid production.  It
is interesting to read what the people supplementing with AA on
purpose say, no systemic inflammation but much stronger responses to
stimuli such as exercise.  I wonder whether the body has a mechanism
to stop producing AA when the cell membranes are "charged" with it
enough ...

>  > And it is not only
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> They have to have a limited lifespan/reach or they wouldn't be any use
> as a localized targeting aid.

Yes, they probably end up sticking to/oxidizing nearby macromolecules
forming AGEs and other nasty stuff such as DNA adducts.

> > > The brain has a precise and unusual fatty acid composition which
> > > includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> expense of) other tissues. A gradual brain-wide decline in efficiency
> may not be so noticeable as areas of scaly skin.

I have seen some studies suggesting that the Inuits have low
activities of desaturases so that they must be getting the long chain
PUFAs directly e.g. from meat like the cat.  Also atopic dermatitis
has been blamed on insufficient AA in one paper.  But one must
consider that if there is a problem with the LC-PUFA synthesis the
body cannot also make the Mead acid.  This is, however, rarely taken
into account.  With every EPA/DHA or AA supplementation experiment
there should be a proper Mead acid control.

Taka
Marshall Price - 17 May 2008 09:09 GMT
>>>> Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
>>>> response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>
> Taka

  You guys talking about lipolysis, lipogenesis, adipose tissue, type 2
diabetes, etc.?

  I can contribute some paragraphs from /Metabolism at a Glance, ed3/,
if you like.

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Taka - 18 May 2008 16:09 GMT
> >>>> Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
> >>>> response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
>    I can contribute some paragraphs from /Metabolism at a Glance, ed3/,
> if you like.

If that book says something about the Mead acid I would like to see
it, other is all well known agenda.

Taka
Marshall Price - 20 May 2008 08:20 GMT
>>>>>> Thankyou for supporting the point that it is deliberately released in
>>>>>> response to physiological stimuli. Monty1945's claims about AA being
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
> Taka

  Nope.  All I've got is the third edition.  Maybe the new fourth
edition mentions it.

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John Hasenkam - 07 May 2008 15:56 GMT
>> > The brain has a precise and unusual fatty acid composition which
>> > includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> MattLB

The mammalian brain likes to preserve DHA and EPA, particularly the former.
DHA is a substrate for NPD1, a neuroprotectant. Studies on omega 3
supplementation in relation to depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia are
conflicting but in relation to depression at least if the diet is low in
omega 3's increasing intake of the same is a reasonable safeguard. Omega 3
intake also correlates with retinal health, obviously because NPD 1 is very
important for retinal neurons. Ironically studies indicate that it is omega
3's that are very easily oxidised here, hence it is good to maintain the key
carotenes that facilitate retinal health, lutein and zeaxanthin, because
without omega 3's your vision is going to deteriorate anyway. Catch 22, as
it so often bloody well is. Supplementing pregnant women with omega 3's did
lead to measurable increases in visual acuity in their newborn infants.
Deficiencies in omega 3's during pregnancy may result in the mother
experiencing omega 3's deficiencies because the fetus wills strip these fats
from the mother. I sometimes wonder if this serves as a partial basis for
post partum depression.
Taka - 08 May 2008 02:34 GMT
> >> > The brain has a precise and unusual fatty acid composition which
> >> > includes AA and DHA by design. It's not simply a reflection of dietary
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> from the mother. I sometimes wonder if this serves as a partial basis for
> post partum depression.

Looking at Medline the NPD1/LXA4 lipoxins, resolvins and protectins
(e.g. PMID: 18233953,18437155,15912889,15152078,17965751,18060755)
stories look appealing (finally some sensible function for Omega-3s!)
but they are needed only in the presence of AA and its proinflammatory
metabolites such as LTB4.  So much research effort and money is being
invested into finding different ways to counteract the AA-mediated
"oxidative stress" while no one looks at the simplest solution to
reduce or eliminate AA/LA from the body.  If AA is so essential why do
we need to counteract it with drugs like aspirin or NSAIDs all the
time?  If you catch cold or get injured why do you need to take
substances inhibiting AA metabolization???

Taka
jay - 02 Jun 2008 21:21 GMT
> > ... LA is converted into AA ...
>
> ... 10g LA, ... 0.06g ends up as AA.

Would the following three foods be approx equivalent in term of AA?

100g (3.5 oz) of hazelnut
6 eggs yolks
1.44 kg (3.2 lb) of beef

based on data from nutritiondata.com
100 g hazelnut x 7.8g LA/100g x 0.06gAA/10g LA = 468mg of AA
75mg AA + 3.6mg AA from 601mg LA / large egg
30mg AA + 2.6mg AA from 440mg LA / 100g beef, chuck, arm roast
Marshall Price - 04 May 2008 03:24 GMT
>>> You still need something to cause hydrolysis of the ester bond holding
>>> the AA in the membrane. It doesn't need to be a leukocyte-linked
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> It's bit of a myth. The liver will soak up the majority of the
> consumed glutamate and turn it into urea and energy.

  (Let's reserve "AA" for "amino acid.")  Nobody would ever have
thought of adding MSG to food if it weren't already found in food.  Some
of that glutamate, at least, goes into muscles and other tissues, and
enzymes, and it spares the energy and niacin required to make it from
alpha-ketoglutarate, a Krebs cycle intermediate.

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trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 30 Apr 2008 07:23 GMT
> > > > For those who like it in pictures:
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> MattLB

Sidebar point. GERD can exist in the context of suppressed
or non-existent stomach acid secretion. This is called
bile reflux or alkaline reflux and it can be every bit as dangerous
as acid reflux.

I grant this doesn't disprove your original point, just there is
a need of a better illustration.

I am not taking sides here guys just yet, please continue.
Marshall Price - 04 May 2008 03:05 GMT
>>> For those who like it in pictures:
>>> http://www.biol.sc.edu/~bergerlab/guest%20lectures%20610/DIXON.ppt
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So tell us, MattLB, could there be a chronic degenerative inflammation
> WITHOUT AA?

  Wait a minute, Taka, what about wound healing?  You want to do
without that?

  Take a look at slide 19.  Is protecting gastric mucosa a bad thing?
How about promoting and inhibiting platelet aggregation (think
"strokes"), relaxing vascular smooth muscle ("erections"), relaxing
bronchial smooth muscle ("breathing"), increasing renal blood flow
("peeing"), and regulating uterine smooth muscle ("childbearing")?

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mike V - 28 Apr 2008 17:30 GMT
Where do you get your wisdom and patience with obsessed idiots, MattLB?
MikeV

>> For those who like it in pictures:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> MattLB
Taka - 29 Apr 2008 03:05 GMT
> Where do you get your wisdom and patience with obsessed idiots, MattLB?
> MikeV

Have you forgotten taking your daily dose of fish oil to calm you
down, MikeV?
Taka
MattLB - 29 Apr 2008 15:20 GMT
> Where do you get your wisdom and patience with obsessed idiots, MattLB?
> MikeV

Regular breaks :-)

MattLB
Marshall Price - 04 May 2008 02:53 GMT
>> For those who like it in pictures:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> MattLB

  Right on, MattLB.

  And the whole presentation is about *chronic* (not acute)
inflammation and *cancer.*  Who knew we were discussing cancer, of all
things?

  I note that Taka rarely mentions the role of arachidonic acid in
normal human physiology.  Why is that?

  I get the distinct impression that arachidonic acid is an absolutely
necessary constituent of all prostaglandins ("biologically active
phospholipid molecules that regulate many physiological functions"), so
how can we live without it?

  Could Taka be confusing arachidonic acid in physiology with
arachidonic acid in food, the way the establishment did for many years
with cholesterol?

  Now that HDL (high-density lipoprotein) cholesterol is called "the
good cholesterol," you don't hear so many people saying they've "got to
cut down on cholesterol."  Butter, eggs, and bacon are getting expensive
again, just as oatmeal did earlier.  I wonder whether corporate buy-outs
had anything to do with that.

  Have you ever called Kretschmer's 800 line and asked about whether
phytic acid was a good thing to eat with dairy products?  If so, you
probably got the old "What? Never heard of it!" routine.

  Quaker bought Kretschmer, and both their wheat germ and oat bran
products make *strong* health claims on their packaging, which IIRC, is
illegal.

  Let's just fire all those air traffic controllers.  Who needs them
and their lousy union anyway?  (Reagan was the president of one union
while my father was the president of a rival one.  Dad came out of a
meeting with him and said, "that guy ought to go into politics."
Thanks, Dad!)

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Taka - 06 May 2008 03:55 GMT
> >> For those who like it in pictures:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> phospholipid molecules that regulate many physiological functions"), so
> how can we live without it?

I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
all the "essential" functions of the AA metabolites such as
prostaglandins.  It isn't just being actively investigated because it
is so rare in novadays people and experimental animals which are fed
vegetable oils.  I have also tried to summarize the available evidence
in the thread "Mead acid studies" on Monty's site.  Without the
Omega-6/AA and refined carbohydrate overload (combined with artificial
lighting) the human population wouldn't expand so much but people will
live healthier without degenerative diseases caused by chronic
inflammation and the Earth would be cleaner without industrial
pollutions caused by overpopulation.

Taka

>    Could Taka be confusing arachidonic acid in physiology with
> arachidonic acid in food, the way the establishment did for many years
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Marshall Price of Miami
> Known to Yahoo as d021317c
Marshall Price - 16 May 2008 22:45 GMT
> I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
> eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> vegetable oils.  I have also tried to summarize the available evidence
> in the thread "Mead acid studies" on Monty's site.  

  Could you provide a link to that, Taka?

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Taka - 17 May 2008 02:56 GMT
> > I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
> > eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>    Could you provide a link to that, Taka?

http://tinyurl.com/47fuhv

http://tinyurl.com/6cpdnp
Marshall Price - 20 May 2008 12:50 GMT
>>> I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
>>> eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6cpdnp

  I was hoping you'd point me to your reasons for saying, "the Mead
acid eicosanoid family... seems to be complete [in that] it can supply
all the 'essential' functions of the AA metabolites...."

  The Wikipedia article on Mead acid says that in "the physiological
literature, it is given the name 20:3(n-9)."  It also gives the PubChem
identifier for it: 5312531 (
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=5312531 ).

  PubChem gives the following synonyms:

Mead acid
BSPBio_001412
E5888_SIGMA
5Z,8Z,11Z-eicosatrienoic acid
cis-5,8,11-Eicosatrienoic acid
ETrE(5Z, 8Z, 11Z)
LMFA01030381
IDI1_033882
NCGC00161346-01
NCGC00161346-02

... and the IUPAC Name: (5Z,8Z,11Z)-icosa-5,8,11-trienoic acid.

  At the first link you gave, the first abstract in Message 1 mentions
"n-9 eicosatrienoic acid (ETrA; 20:3n-9)."  Is that Mead acid?  Assuming
it is, the text seems to contradict your assertion (in the forum), "Mead
acid is the main component of membranes in young, growing and healthy
tissues."  Instead, it says that in fetal human and sheep joint
cartilage, Mead acid content was higher than in mature subjects, and
that the same is true of muscle tissues in sheep, but *not* in humans.
To me, that implies the contrary: that Mead acid is less abundant in the
muscle tissue of human fetuses than in that of adults.

  (The last sentence in that abstract is disappointingly ambiguous:
"ETrA appears to be a readily measurable component of some tissues at
certain stages of development when its presence in tissues does not
indicate EFA deficiency."  That could mean (a) that it is such a
component only *if* it does not indicate a deficiency, or (b) that at
certain stages of development it *doesn't* indicate deficiency, and is
readily measurable.  Do they know that a comma after "development" is
mandatory if they intend the latter?)

  The second abstract discusses "n-9 eicosatrienoic (20:3 cis-delta
5,8,11) acid," which again I take to mean Mead acid.  Rather than
indicating that it is "the main component," it says that "normal, young
cartilages, in distinction from all other tissues examined, have
unusually high levels of" Mead acid.  So except for cartilage, young
tissues do not have high levels of Mead acid, and even in young
cartilage (although it is "unusually" abundant), that may still mean
that the concentration of it is very low compared to other fatty acids.
 The quotation doesn't say.

  The third abstract (appears to be irrelevant to the youth issue, but)
seems to contradict your assertion (in the newsgroup) that Mead acid is
an adequate substitute for arachidonic acid, since it says that "only
insignificant amounts of LTB3 were formed...."  (I take it that Mead
acid lacks AA's "double bond at C-14".)

  The fourth abstract also seems to contradict your assertion.  In rats
fed EFA-deficient diets, Mead acid failed to establish normal levels of
leukotriene B4 ("a 87% reduction"), "even though the arachidonate
content was reduced by only 34%..., due to inhibition of leukotriene A
hydrolase by a lipoxygenase metabolite."  Also, "little or no
leukotriene B3 was formed."

  I realize that there are 71 more messages in that discussion
("Nutrition: Mead acid studies"), and I haven't even looked at "Mead
acid eicosanoids - the family is complete" (except to note that Monty
winds up saying, "a simple animal experiment could be done") but so far,
I'm disappointed.

  Remember, I'm a novice, and dyslexic, and these are rather heavy
homework assignments!  ;-)

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Taka - 21 May 2008 03:28 GMT
> >>> I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
> >>> eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> To me, that implies the contrary: that Mead acid is less abundant in the
> muscle tissue of human fetuses than in that of adults.

Muscle fibers are highly differentiated cells and AA may tend to
accumulate in them like DHA accumulates in the neurons.  There is a
possibility that in small amounts the "EFAs" are truly essential for
the function of such differentiated tissues, they have been available
in human food all the time but nothing close to the amounts since the
introduction of the refined vegetable oils and Omega-3
supplements ...  Undifferentiated cells and the connective tissues may
be better off with Mead acid.

>    (The last sentence in that abstract is disappointingly ambiguous:
> "ETrA appears to be a readily measurable component of some tissues at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> that the concentration of it is very low compared to other fatty acids.
>   The quotation doesn't say.

The problem is that you don't get large amounts of Mead acid
synthesized when you feed the experimental subjects Omega-6/3 fats.
And all people as well as experimental animals are ingesting large
amounts of these fatty acids even in the womb.  The only thing which
can lead to measurable Mead acid accumulation is a fast growth or poor
blood supply so the conversion of ingested Omega-6 fats to AA doesn't
catchup with its incorporation in newly made cell membranes.  Another
way to deplete AA is chronic inflammation when its needs for the
synthesis of the inflammatory mediators exceed its supply such as in
the active stage of celiac disease.  Someone should really go to the
mountains and try measuring Mead acid and its metabolites in the wild
animals which are not fed vegetable oils or grains.

>    The third abstract (appears to be irrelevant to the youth issue, but)
> seems to contradict your assertion (in the newsgroup) that Mead acid is
> an adequate substitute for arachidonic acid, since it says that "only
> insignificant amounts of LTB3 were formed...."  (I take it that Mead
> acid lacks AA's "double bond at C-14".)

Right, there is no need for "significant" amounts of dangerous
metabolites such as LTB4 especially in aging people.

>    The fourth abstract also seems to contradict your assertion.  In rats
> fed EFA-deficient diets, Mead acid failed to establish normal levels of
> leukotriene B4 ("a 87% reduction"), "even though the arachidonate
> content was reduced by only 34%..., due to inhibition of leukotriene A
> hydrolase by a lipoxygenase metabolite."  Also, "little or no
> leukotriene B3 was formed."

Ditto, that's only good, you don't need to supplement with 5-LOX
inhibitors such as AKBA then.

>    I realize that there are 71 more messages in that discussion
> ("Nutrition: Mead acid studies"), and I haven't even looked at "Mead
> acid eicosanoids - the family is complete" (except to note that Monty
> winds up saying, "a simple animal experiment could be done") but so far,
> I'm disappointed.

I am disappointed too on how the scientific establishment cannot find
a way to validate the old flawed 1929/1940 EFAD experiments ...

Taka
Marshall Price - 02 Jun 2008 13:49 GMT
>>>>> I recommend you have a look at my previous post about the Mead acid
>>>>> eicosanoid family which seems to be complete in terms it can supply
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> supplements ...  Undifferentiated cells and the connective tissues may
> be better off with Mead acid.

  Can you point me to more information on both these subjects -- AA in
muscle fibers and DHA in neurons?

  Omega-3 supplements generally contribute small amounts of omega-3s
compared to fatty fish, don't they?  Isn't it likely that humans
consumed much larger amounts of them in other times and places?

>>    (The last sentence in that abstract is disappointingly ambiguous:
>> "ETrA appears to be a readily measurable component of some tissues at
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> mountains and try measuring Mead acid and its metabolites in the wild
> animals which are not fed vegetable oils or grains.

  Is it fair to say that most scientists consider the accumulation of
Mead acid in adipose tissue to indicate a pathological condition, but
Ray Peat disagrees, and that you are open-minded towards his position?

>>    The third abstract (appears to be irrelevant to the youth issue, but)
>> seems to contradict your assertion (in the newsgroup) that Mead acid is
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I am disappointed too on how the scientific establishment cannot find
> a way to validate the old flawed 1929/1940 EFAD experiments ...

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Marshall Price - 04 May 2008 01:22 GMT
> For those who like it in pictures:
>
> http://www.biol.sc.edu/~bergerlab/guest%20lectures%20610/DIXON.ppt

  Thanks, Taka!  (I'm taking a break while it arrives.)

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

 
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