A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
if there was some other brand that would be a
better choice.
What I use right now is the Long's store brand.
I'm not real happy with this supplement,
especially since they started adding artificial
red coloring. They used to be a gold color,
because of the riboflavin. I'm also not happy
that they use vitamin A instead of beta-carotene
to provide the vitamin A activity. (They have
a little beta-carotene in them, but that's
window dressing.)
I went to several stores -- Trade Joe's, Whole
Foods, Rite-Aid, etc. looking for a better
supplement. One important criterion is that
I don't want any iron. I don't know my
hemochromatosis status, and in the absence of
that knowledge, I'm not going to take a
supplement with iron. I also won't take a
supplement with copper, for reasons I'll
describe later.
Finding a no-iron formulation is tough. There
aren't many. I take separate a separate
supplement for calcium, magnesium, and zinc,
so I want a multivitamin-only supplement.
Whole Foods has a no-iron supplement, but
it contains other minerals including copper.
Whole Foods has by far the largest selection
of supplements, but they are mostly basic
multivitamin/multimineral preparations with
lots of added weird stuff, things like
spirulina and other galenicals many of which
are of unproven benefits or safety. I just
want 100% of the USRDA of vitamins.
Eventually, I just couldn't find anything
suitable, so I went back to Long's. I think
the people who are formulating vitamins
these days are idiots.
I was especially disturbed by the large
number of supplements which have copper.
That is a really, really bad idea. See,
for example, the following abstract.
J Alzheimers Dis. 2007 Jun;11(3):371-83.
A rabbit model of Alzheimer's disease: valid at
neuropathological, cognitive, and therapeutic
levels.
Woodruff-Pak DS, Agelan A, Del Valle L.
Department of Psychology, Temple University,
Philadelphia, PA 19122, USA.
Supplementing a rabbit's diet with 2% cholesterol
alone or with a trace amount of copper created
neuropathological changes that resembled those seen
in Alzheimer's disease (AD). AD model rabbits were
impaired in eyeblink classical conditioning; a form
of learning severely impaired in AD. Our aim was
to replicate AD rabbit model neuropathology, test
eyeblink conditioning in this model, and determine
if galantamine (Razadyne) would ameliorate impaired
conditioning. In Experiment 1 rabbit chow with 2%
cholesterol and drinking water with 0.12 mg/liter
copper sulfate were administered for 10 weeks.
Control rabbits received normal food and water.
Rabbit brains were probed for neuropathology. AD
model rabbits had significant neuronal loss in
frontal cortex, hippocampus and cerebellum. Changes
in neurons in the hippocampus were consistent with
neurofibrillary degeneration and cytoplasmic
immunoreactivity for amyloid-beta and tau.
In Experiment 2 AD model rabbits were injected
daily with vehicle or 3.0 mg/kg galantamine and
tested on 750 ms trace and delay eyeblink
conditioning. Galantamine improved eyeblink
conditioning significantly over vehicle. The AD
rabbit model has validity from neuropathological
to cognitive levels and offers a promising
addition to the available animal models of AD.
Galantamine ameliorated impaired eyeblink
conditioning, extending the validity of the AD
rabbit model to treatment modalities.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Sep 16;100(19):11065-9.
Trace amounts of copper in water induce beta-amyloid
plaques and learning deficits in a rabbit model
of Alzheimer's disease.
Sparks DL, Schreurs BG.
Sun Health Research Institute, 10515 West Santa Fe
Drive, Sun City, AZ 85351, USA.
Despite the crucial role played by cholesterol and
copper in nutrition and normal brain function,
recent evidence indicates that they may both be
important factors in the etiology of Alzheimer's
disease (AD). Here we provide critical evidence
for the role of cholesterol and copper in AD by
showing that the addition of trace amounts of
copper (0.12 ppm) to water given to cholesterol-fed
rabbits can induce beta-amyloid (Abeta)
accumulation, including senile plaque-like
structures in the hippocampus and temporal lobe,
and can significantly retard the ability of rabbits
to learn a difficult trace conditioning task. The
Abeta deposits do not affect the ability of rabbits
to detect or respond to the training stimuli nor to
learn a simpler delay conditioning task. Trace
amounts of copper in drinking water may influence
clearance of Abeta from the brain at the level of
the interface between the blood and
cerebrovasculature and combined with high
cholesterol may be a key component to the
accumulation of Abeta in the brain, having a
significant impact on learning and memory.
Cholesterol-fed rabbits have at least 12
pathological markers seen in AD, suggesting that
the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
for studying AD.
Haley - 07 Apr 2008 03:42 GMT
instead of opting for a multivitamin, you could try just getting the vitamins
you need, granted, that would be quite a few pill capsules to swallow/ingest
everyday.
also, if i were you i would not be basing all of my opinions on the results
of animal testing. tests that have gone perfect in guinea pigs and rabbits
have had catastrophic results in humans, just based on the simple fact that
the DNA's are too different for any real sort of accurate testing. so, long
story short, just because some minerals cause undesirable effects in rabbits
does not necessarily mean they will do the same in people.
hope this helps!
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 07 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
> A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
> supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
> for studying AD.
I recall writing a letter to LEF back in the day (1980's) asking them
to
remove both iron and copper from their standard vitamin mineral
powder which they did. A small amount of their powder would
last you a long time!
In a slightly more ideal world people would be screened to tell
whether
they are iron or copper accumulators. As hemochromatosis has a
known genetic basis, testing is possible. In Wilson's disease urinary
copper excretion is high and has a genetic basis. About 30 per million
person have this
latter condition. Given your past your third decade of life, you
likely don't have Wilson's disease....the copper accumulation disease.
This does raise the question whether carriers are also affected in the
later
decades of life with these traits.
Personally I don't like multiple vitamin minerals supplement in the
all in
the one pill form. I don't like B's with vitamin C. Or vitamins C and
E with copper
or iron. Keep the minerals in mineral caps. Keep the fat soluble
vitamins
in gelcaps. I am not a fan of vitamin D in mineral based tablets.
Understand I view the RDA, RDI, AI as dubious measures to the optimal
vitamin intakes especially in the face of the modern "toxic"
environment.
More over the standard list of vitamins represents an incomplete list
of important nutrient like materials. I like lots of inositol, r-alpha
lipoic acid,
biotin, gamma-tocopherol, and etc.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 08 Apr 2008 12:29 GMT
On Apr 7, 1:30 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
> > supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > a little beta-carotene in them, but that's
> > window dressing.)
I'll suggest retinol is in fact the better choice in a low
maintenance dose supplement. Why because diabetics
are common and they don't convert beta-carotene as well
as the rest of the population nor is this the only group
for which this is true. In larger dose, a case might
be made for a dose mainly of beta-carotene. Personally,
I only occassional take a retinol supplement and I avoid
all trans beta carotene supplements for the most part.
I make a point of eating good carotenoid source foods.
Most supplements contain too much preformed vitamin
A for daily use especially in the context of both the
relative lack of vitamin D and K in such supplements.
The 200 or 400 IU of D is far too low. And 10 mcg
of K1 is nearly meaningless. If they had 300 mcg of
K2-mk7 then they might have something.
> > I went to several stores -- Trade Joe's, Whole
> > Foods, Rite-Aid, etc. looking for a better
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> > Finding a no-iron formulation is tough.
You just have to be willing to look. Most good vitamins
store and catalogs carry selections that can be used
and still avoid iron and copper. One just has to be
willing to take a number of capsules.
If you are trying to get something for an elderly mom who
doesn't take vitamins, I'll suggest the only way that works
is in a nursing home in which the med and vits are provided
to the elderly person and observed went taken.
> > There
> > aren't many. I take separate a separate
> > supplement for calcium, magnesium, and zinc,
> > so I want a multivitamin-only supplement.
Magnesium oxide isn't worth a hoot as supplement anyway.
> > Whole Foods has a no-iron supplement, but
> > it contains other minerals including copper.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > the people who are formulating vitamins
> > these days are idiots.
We don't agree on much, but we do agree on this.
> > I was especially disturbed by the large
> > number of supplements which have copper.
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> lipoic acid,
> biotin, gamma-tocopherol, and etc.
Marshall Price - 12 Apr 2008 17:50 GMT
>> A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
>> supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
[quoted text clipped - 155 lines]
> lipoic acid,
> biotin, gamma-tocopherol, and etc.
As an LEF ("Life Extension Foundation") fan, you're probably getting
plenty of vitamin C. Won't that give you some protection against iron
and copper overloads?

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 09 Apr 2008 10:35 GMT
> A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
> supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
> for studying AD.
Rabbits don't naturally eat cholesterol after weaning.
Since Mark Thorson is worried about copper, perhaps
he should include more white sugar or corn syrup in his diet to
lower his overall micronutrient intake. ( This a tongue
and cheek comment.)
Too little copper maybe a good way to snap a tendon.
I recall Mark posting similar requests in the past.
I suppose this goes to motive.
Mark Thorson has a huge Usenet history in the
Google archive. This may explain why no one else has
chimed in on his first posting to this thread.
Marshall Price - 12 Apr 2008 17:45 GMT
> A few days ago, I ran out of my multivitamin
> supplement, and I decided I'd look around to see
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
> for studying AD.
A few caveats.
Don't underestimate the importance of other trace elements in your diet,
especially manganese and chromium. (Look into the copper-manganese
connection.)
Ordinarily, rabbits get no cholesterol at all in their diets, and wild
rabbits are usually quite lean.
Also, they don't sweat and avoid getting wet, so unlike humans, they
rarely have to fight off fungal skin infections. However, copper is
suspected to be necessary to fight them off (and is crucial, of course,
for many metabolic reactions), though more research is needed, and it's
not likely to be profitable.

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c