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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2008Omega-3 fatty acid supplementation
Hi, There are plenty articles on the benefit of taking omega-3 fatty acid (fish oil). Is there any report that long term consumption of omega-3 fatty acid (2 fish oil capsules per day) resulted to Fatty Liver or other adversed effect? Alan > Hi, > > There are plenty articles on the benefit of taking omega-3 fatty acid (fish > oil). > Is there any report that long term consumption of omega-3 fatty acid (2 fish > oil capsules per day) resulted to Fatty Liver or other adversed effect? http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-3-000971.htm says: "Possible Interactions with: Omega-3 Fatty Acids Also listed as: Omega-3 Fatty Acids Interactions If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use omega-3 fatty acid supplements without first talking to your healthcare provider. Blood-thinning Medications - Omega-3 fatty acids may increase the blood-thinning effects of aspirin or warfarin. While the combination of aspirin and omega-3 fatty acids may actually be helpful under certain circumstances (such as heart disease), they should only be taken together under the guidance and supervision of your healthcare provider. Cyclosporine Taking omega-3 fatty acids during cyclosporine therapy may reduce toxic side effects (such as high blood pressure and kidney damage) associated with this medication in transplant patients. Etretinate and Topical Steroids - The addition of omega-3 fatty acids (specifically EPA) to a drug regimen of etretinate and topical corticosteroids may improve symptoms of psoriasis. Cholesterol-lowering Medications - Following certain nutritional guidelines, including increasing the amount of omega-3 fatty acids in your diet and reducing the omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, may allow a group of cholesterol lowering medications known as "statins" (such as atorvastatin, lovastatin, and simvastatin) to work more effectively. Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs) - In an animal study, treatment with omega-3 fatty acids reduced the risk of ulcers from nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). More research is needed to evaluate whether omega-3 fatty acids would have the same effects in people." -- Ron >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > taken together under the guidance and supervision of your healthcare > provider. Does that mean that one should avoid eating fish, especially salmon? This seems rather kooky considering how much fish oil needs to be taken to create any detectable change in blood work. Personally, I take fish oil that contains 2.5 grams of EPA+DHA, a full strength aspirin, about 800 mg of all 8 isomers of vitamin E, ginkgo, krill oil, and a couple of other things that are reported to thin the blood. My bleeding times and coagulation times are perfectly normal as reported by pt/ptt testing with an IIR of exactly 1.0 or normal.  SignaturePramesh Rutaji p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply >>> Hi, >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > blood. My bleeding times and coagulation times are perfectly normal as > reported by pt/ptt testing with an IIR of exactly 1.0 or normal. Thanks guys for the interesting comments. I am a vegetarian and do not eat fish. I also have a problem with eating flax and chia seeds. I know that the omega-3s can be extracted from both seeds but according to DrWeil the flax seed oil can injure the prostate gland. He suggested that adding lignans might help that problem but there isn't much evidence. Does anyone know if chia seed oil has a similar problem? TIA > Thanks guys for the interesting comments. > I am a vegetarian and do not eat fish. I also have a problem > with eating flax and chia seeds. Whole flax seeds aren't very digestible, try ground flax seeds or ground sprouted flax seeds instead. I don't have any problems with chia seeds, but prepare them in drinks or baked goods. An inexpensive coffee mill will help integrate chia seeds with other foods. Walnuts are more palatable than flax or chia, but are lower in omega 3 fatty acids, so you would probably need an ounce of walnuts to get a reasonable amount of omega 3 fatty acids. You can also get omega 3 fatty acids from canola oil. Those vegetarian sources only have the ALA version of omega 3 which the body converts slowly to the more biologically active forms of EPA and DHA. There is a vegetarian form of DHA that is available, but it's more expensive than fish oil based omega 3 fatty acids. Many green leafy vegetables are also high in omega 3 fatty acids. > I know that the omega-3s can be extracted from both seeds > but according to DrWeil the flax seed oil can injure the prostate gland. > He suggested that adding lignans might help that problem but there isn't much > evidence. Dr Weil sells supplements and is just repeating speculations that he has heard. There isn't any evidence that any of the usual fatty acids are carcinogenic. -- Ron >> Thanks guys for the interesting comments. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Whole flax seeds aren't very digestible, try ground flax seeds or > ground sprouted flax seeds instead. I would never eat flax seeds directly and I believe they would pass through the body taking most of the nutrients with them They would form a transparent muous and I guess that is all that would be absorbed. I can't even find an analysis of that mucus. I have used often a coffee grinder with a little added oats or similar to absorb the oil and stop the mix from being a paste. However the ground seeds are what sends me to the bathroom. > I don't have any problems with chia seeds, but prepare them in drinks > or baked goods. An inexpensive coffee mill will help integrate chia > seeds with other foods. The seeds soften after about an hour in hot water and can be taken directly then but they sent me more often than the flax seeds. Doesn't anyone do studies of food intolerances? > Walnuts are more palatable than flax or chia, but are lower in omega 3 > fatty acids, so you would probably need an ounce of walnuts to get a > reasonable amount of omega 3 fatty acids. You can also get omega 3 > fatty acids from canola oil. Canola oil is my only good fairly good source at present. My system does not tolerate walnuts either. > Those vegetarian sources only have the ALA version of omega 3 which > the body converts slowly to the more biologically active forms of EPA > and DHA. There is a vegetarian form of DHA that is available, but it's > more expensive than fish oil based omega 3 fatty acids. > > Many green leafy vegetables are also high in omega 3 fatty acids. Yes, but with the tiny amounts, how many pounds would it take to give a day's supply? >> I know that the omega-3s can be extracted from both seeds >> but according to DrWeil the flax seed oil can injure the prostate gland. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > has heard. There isn't any evidence that any of the usual fatty acids > are carcinogenic. It's true that he does a lot of advertizing and selling these days but, in this case, if he wanted to make money on it, why would he not sell the flax oil and keep shut up about the research that has been done? See below for his comment in Oct 2006. Thanks Ron for your input. RF > -- > Ron Although flaxseed oil seems to be safe for women, I still haven't seen any data showing that it is safe for men. In October 2004, Nutrition Journal published an analysis of nutrition and cancer. One meta-analysis included in that publication reviewed nine studies that revealed an association between flaxseed oil intake or high blood levels of alpha-linolenic acid and increased risk of prostate cancer. The author speculated that the lignans in flaxseed are a major component of its anti-cancer effects and that the lack of lignans in most brands of flaxseed oil may explain why flaxseed oil is not beneficial. Until we know more about the risk flaxseed oil appears to present, I recommend that men avoid it, or at least stick to brands that put the lignans back in. Flaxseeds, however, present no danger to men. RF Note: Another danger lies in my toilet getting blown up ;-) > Does that mean that one should avoid eating fish, especially salmon? No. There isn't any evidence for excessive bleeding for a healthy person consuming a diet high in omega 3. > This seems rather kooky considering how much fish oil needs to be taken > to create any detectable change in blood work. If a person is on a blood thinning drug, there may be an added risk. Many people take aspirin for its anti platelet activity, so those people might have a problem with very large doses. > Personally, I take fish oil that contains 2.5 grams of EPA+DHA, a full > strength aspirin, about 800 mg of all 8 isomers of vitamin E, ginkgo, > krill oil, and a couple of other things that are reported to thin the > blood. My bleeding times and coagulation times are perfectly normal as > reported by pt/ptt testing with an IIR of exactly 1.0 or normal. Your omega 3 intake seems fine, and you might have some ALA intake through your diet. A full strength aspirin seems like its too much since 40 mg is all that is needed for anti-platelet activity. I think research has shown that the 81mg capsule doesn't cause excessive bleeding in a significant number of cases. -- Ron >> Does that mean that one should avoid eating fish, especially salmon? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If a person is on a blood thinning drug, there may be an added risk. Blood thinning drugs are a problem. Working closely with one's doctor, one can take them with vitamin K in order to stabilize the drug thinning effects. It requires more of the drug but day to day and week to week diet changes don't require one to constantly modify the drug thinning dosage. At that point, I would expect that diet would have a much smaller effect. > Many people take aspirin for its anti platelet activity, so those > people might have a problem with very large doses. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that the 81mg capsule doesn't cause excessive bleeding in a > significant number of cases. Had a heart attack and titrated up from 81 mg aspirin to full strength when I was titrating down and getting off of Plavix, a very nasty drug. SignaturePramesh Rutaji p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply > Blood thinning drugs are a problem. Working closely with one's doctor, > one can take them with vitamin K in order to stabilize the drug thinning > effects. It requires more of the drug but day to day and week to week > diet changes don't require one to constantly modify the drug thinning > dosage. At that point, I would expect that diet would have a much > smaller effect. IIRC, vitamin K has a number of good effects on the vascular system including reducing the calcification of the arteries. > Had a heart attack and titrated up from 81 mg aspirin to full strength > when I was titrating down and getting off of Plavix, a very nasty drug. Aspirin is one of the safer drugs, so it's good that it's working for you. -- Ron RF Note: I sent this yesterday but it has not appeared on my server. Please excuse if you see a duplicate. > On Mar 15, 5:03 pm, RF <R...@Den.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Whole flax seeds aren't very digestible, try ground flax seeds or > ground sprouted flax seeds instead. I would never eat flax seeds directly and I believe they would pass through the body taking most of the nutrients with them They would form a transparent muous and I guess that is all that would be absorbed. I can't even find an analysis of that mucus. I have used often a coffee grinder with a little added oats or similar to absorb the oil and stop the mix from being a paste. However the ground seeds are what sends me to the bathroom. > I don't have any problems with chia seeds, but prepare them in drinks > or baked goods. An inexpensive coffee mill will help integrate chia > seeds with other foods. The seeds soften after about an hour in hot water and can be taken directly then but they sent me more often than the flax seeds. Doesn't anyone do studies of food intolerances? > Walnuts are more palatable than flax or chia, but are lower in omega 3 > fatty acids, so you would probably need an ounce of walnuts to get a > reasonable amount of omega 3 fatty acids. You can also get omega 3 > fatty acids from canola oil. Canola oil is my only good fairly good source at present. My system does not tolerate walnuts either. > Those vegetarian sources only have the ALA version of omega 3 which > the body converts slowly to the more biologically active forms of EPA > and DHA. There is a vegetarian form of DHA that is available, but it's > more expensive than fish oil based omega 3 fatty acids. > > Many green leafy vegetables are also high in omega 3 fatty acids. Yes, but with the tiny amounts, how many pounds would it take to give a day's supply? >> I know that the omega-3s can be extracted from both seeds >> but according to DrWeil the flax seed oil can injure the prostate gland. >> He suggested that adding lignans might help that problem but there isn't much evidence. > Dr Weil sells supplements and is just repeating speculations that he > has heard. There isn't any evidence that any of the usual fatty acids > are carcinogenic. It's true that he does a lot of advertizing and selling these days but, in this case, if he wanted to make money on it, why would he not sell the flax oil and keep shut up about the research that has been done? See below for his comment in Oct 2006. Thanks Ron for your input. RF > -- > Ron Although flaxseed oil seems to be safe for women, I still haven't seen any data showing that it is safe for men. In October 2004, Nutrition Journal published an analysis of nutrition and cancer. One meta-analysis included in that publication reviewed nine studies that revealed an association between flaxseed oil intake or high blood levels of alpha-linolenic acid and increased risk of prostate cancer. The author speculated that the lignans in flaxseed are a major component of its anti-cancer effects and that the lack of lignans in most brands of flaxseed oil may explain why flaxseed oil is not beneficial. Until we know more about the risk flaxseed oil appears to present, I recommend that men avoid it, or at least stick to brands that put the lignans back in. Flaxseeds, however, present no danger to men. RF Note: Another danger lies in my toilet getting blown up ;-) > I would never eat flax seeds directly and I believe they > would pass [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be absorbed. > I can't even find an analysis of that mucus. It's not mucus. That stuff that comes out of the seeds is mucilage. It's harmless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucilage >> I would never eat flax seeds directly and I believe they >> would pass [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucilage It looked like transparent mucus to me ;-) > RF Note: I sent this yesterday but it has not appeared on my > server. [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > RF Note: Another danger lies in my toilet getting blown up ;-) I cannot really understand why all you people are torturing yourself with the highly unsaturated oils and seeds/nuts after all what have been posted here by me and Monty. Just to be politically correct by supplementing Omega-3s? There are much safer alternatives such as magnesium if you like to be sh.tting in the toilet whole days ... Even the most stupid should understand the body language and not eat what makes them sick. Taka > I cannot really understand why all you people are torturing > yourself with the highly unsaturated oils and seeds/nuts > after all what have been posted here by me and Monty. It's because clinical studies demonstrate that unsaturated oils reduce inflammation and cholesterol. Saturated fats increase these risk factors for cardiovascular disease. The fringe theories unsupported by any clinical data posted by you and monty are unconvincing to any but the most gullible. In particular, coconut oil is among the worst oils, with regard to health. > In particular, coconut oil is > among the worst oils, with regard to health. Do you have any scientific studies to support this conclusion except for rabbits fed oxidized cholesterol with coconut oil or the statistical "plays" with mortalities in south Asian countries which recently switched to the vegetable oils? Taka > > In particular, coconut oil is > > among the worst oils, with regard to health. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or the statistical "plays" with mortalities in south Asian > countries which recently switched to the vegetable oils? Absolutely! Here it is! This study blames the MUCH higher rate of cardiovascular mortality in Singapore as compared to Hong Kong on consumption of saturated fats including coconut oil. Eur J Epidemiol. 2001;17(5):469-77. Differences in all-cause, cardiovascular and cancer mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore: role of nutrition. Zhang J, Kesteloot H. Department of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium. BACKGROUND: The majority of inhabitants in Hong Kong and Singapore are ethnic Chinese, but all-cause and cardiovascular mortality rates in these two regions are markedly different. This study describes differences in the magnitude and trends in mortality and attempts to explain these differences. METHODS: Data of mortality rates in 1963-1965 and 1993-1995 in the age class of 45-74 years, dietary habits and other factors were compared between Hong Kong and Singapore using Japan, Spain and the USA as reference countries. Mortality and food consumption data were obtained from WHO and FAO, respectively. RESULTS: Large differences in all-cause and cardiovascular mortality exist between Hong Kong and Singapore. The difference in total cancer mortality was less consistent and smaller. The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in 1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men and women, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highest all-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal to vegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore had higher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-cause and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore. These differences can be most reasonably and plausibly explained by their differences in dietary habits, for example, a higher consumption of coconut and palm oil, mainly containing saturated fat, in Singapore. Coconut oil raises bad cholesterol more than beef fat! Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Aug;42(2):190-7. Plasma lipid and lipoprotein response of humans to beef fat, coconut oil and safflower oil. Reiser R, Probstfield JL, Silvers A, Scott LW, Shorney ML, Wood RD, O'Brien BC, Gotto AM Jr, Insull W Jr. This study's purpose was to evaluate the fasting human plasma lipid and lipoprotein responses to dietary beef fat (BF) by comparison with coconut oil (CO) and safflower oil (SO), fats customarily classified as saturated and polyunsaturated. Nineteen free-living normolipidemic men aged 25.6 +/- 3.5 yr consumed centrally-prepared lunches and dinners of common foods having 35% fat calories, 60% of which was the test fat. The test fats were isocalorically substituted, and each fed for five weeks in random sequences with intervening five weeks of habitual diets. Plasma total cholesterol (TC), high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) concentrations among individuals follows the same relative rank regardless of diet. Triglycerides (TG) concentrations among individuals also maintain their relative rank regardless of diet but in a different order from that of the cholesterols. Plasma TC, HDL-C, and LDL-C responses to BF were significantly lower and TG higher than to CO. As compared to SO, BF produced equivalent levels of TG, HDL-C, and LDL-C and marginally higher TC. Thus, the customary consideration of BF as "saturated" and grouping it with CO appears unwarranted. This study in a rat model for myocardial infarction (induced with a synthetic hormone) found omega-3 fatty acids to be protective against lipid peroxidation and cardiovascular death, while coconut oil raised indicators of damage to the heart muscle. J Nutr Biochem. 1999 Jun;10(6):338-44. Effect of saturated, omega-3 and omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids on myocardial infarction. Nageswari K, Banerjee R, Menon VP. School of Biomedical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay, India. Dietary fatty acids have cholesterol lowering, antiatherogenic, and antiarrhythmic properties that decrease the risk of myocardial infarction (MI). This study was designed to study the effects of various oils rich in either polyunsaturated (omega-3 or omega-6) fatty acids (PUFA) or saturated fatty acids (SFA) on the severity of experimentally induced MI. Male albino Sprague-Dawley rats (100-150 g; n = 20) were fed diets enriched with fish oil (omega-3 PUFA), peanut oil (omega-6 PUFA), or coconut oil (SFA) for 60 days. Experimental MI was induced with isoproterenol. Mortality rates; serum enzymes aspartate amino transferase; alanine amino transferase; creatine phosphokinase (CPK); lipid profiles in serum, myocardium, and aorta; peroxide levels in heart and aorta; activities of catalase and superoxide dismutase; and levels of glutathione were measured. The results demonstrated that mortality rate, CPK levels, myocardial lipid peroxides, and glutathione levels were decreased in the omega-3 PUFA treated group. Maximum increase in parameters indicative of myocardial damage was seen in the coconut oil group. These findings suggest that dietary omega-3 PUFA offers maximum protection in experimentally induced MI in comparison to omega-6 PUFA and SFA enriched diets. SFA was found to have the least protective effect. COCONUT OIL IS BAD STUFF !!! COCONUT OIL KILLS !!! > The ratio of animal to vegetal fat > was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). more animal fat in Singapore here > a higher consumption of coconut and > palm oil, mainly containing saturated fat, in Singapore. and now higher consumption of [vegetal] coconut oil in Singapore? Do these authors classify coconut oil as animal fat then? I wouldn't trust them a word ... > Coconut oil raises bad cholesterol more than > beef fat! High cholesterol protects you from cancer and correlates with lowest mortality in old age. > Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Aug;42(2):190-7. > Plasma lipid and lipoprotein response of humans [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > fish oil (omega-3 PUFA), peanut oil (omega-6 PUFA), > or coconut oil (SFA) for 60 days. 60 days is not enough to get the accumulated arachidonic acid out of the mice cells. The coconut oil will not prevent its release and metabolization like the Omega-3s do. They should conduct a lifetime- long experiments with mice fed coconut oil for at least a year ... > Experimental MI was > induced with isoproterenol. Mortality rates; serum [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > COCONUT OIL IS BAD STUFF !!! COCONUT OIL KILLS !!! bullshit, Kitava thrives on coconut oil and has one of the lowest CHD and metabolic syndrome rates: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Lindeberg%20TG%20Final.pdf (PMID: 12817903) Taka > > The ratio of animal to vegetal fat > > was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Do these authors classify coconut oil as animal fat then? I wouldn't > trust them a word ... No, of course not. That's just your spin on a study you can't refute. > > Coconut oil raises bad cholesterol more than > > beef fat! > > High cholesterol protects you from cancer and correlates > with lowest mortality in old age. Can you cite any data? It seems flatly absurd to assert that high serum cholesterol is good for you, but please feel to cite any studies that back up your assertion. > > Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Aug;42(2):190-7. > > Plasma lipid and lipoprotein response of humans [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > metabolization like the Omega-3s do. They should conduct a lifetime- > long experiments with mice fed coconut oil for at least a year ... And if they had run the experiment that long, you'd have some other lame excuse for not accepting their results, which are: > > Experimental MI was > > induced with isoproterenol. Mortality rates; serum [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > to omega-6 PUFA and SFA enriched diets. SFA was found > > to have the least protective effect. They found omega-3 fatty acids are the most protective, coconut oil is the least. End of story. > > COCONUT OIL IS BAD STUFF !!! COCONUT OIL KILLS !!! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Taka > > High cholesterol protects you from cancer and correlates > > with lowest mortality in old age. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for you, but please feel to cite any studies > that back up your assertion. There are plenty of studies cited e.g. here showing that low cholesterol correlates with increased cancer: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Colorectal%20cancer%20and%20 cholesterol And Ray Peat has also written quite a lot about cholesterol with references which I don't have time right now to go picking up (www.raypeat.com). Also you can enlighten yourself at the THINCS site - http://www.thincs.org/public.htm Of course correlation doesn't automatically mean causation but your cites are not any better ... Taka > There are plenty of studies cited e.g. here showing that low > cholesterol correlates with increased cancer: http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/7/2128 indicates that low cholesterol correlates with cancer only for smokers. -- Ron > > > High cholesterol protects you from cancer and correlates > > > with lowest mortality in old age. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Colorectal%20cancer%20and%20 cholesterol But you can't or won't cite any specific study, because then you might be asked to defend it or explain how it is relevant to the question at hand. You won't cite specific studies, like I did. > And Ray Peat has also written quite a lot about cholesterol with > references which I don't have time right now to go picking up > (www.raypeat.com). Also you can enlighten yourself at the THINCS > site - http://www.thincs.org/public.htm Again, no citation of a specific study. You don't want to be pinned down on any of your alleged "evidence". I understand. Data is not your strong suit. > Of course correlation doesn't automatically mean causation > but your cites are not any better ... Except that I actually cited studies in peer-reviewed scientific literature. You didn't do that, and you don't appear to understand the difference between what I did and the sort of hand-waving and references to dubious web sites that you do. >> I cannot really understand why all you people are torturing >> yourself with the highly unsaturated oils and seeds/nuts [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the most gullible. In particular, coconut oil is > among the worst oils, with regard to health. I have a feeling all these ideas are going to be knocked into a cocked hat by advances in GI microbiology. I wouldn't be surprised if the main influence of all these fatty acids in the diet is related, not to their direct effects on human cells, but to their effects on intestinal flora. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > > It's because clinical studies demonstrate that > > unsaturated oils reduce inflammation and cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > influence of all these fatty acids in the diet is related, not to their > direct effects on human cells, but to their effects on intestinal flora. There are few aspects of nutrition that are as well established by clinical trials as the connection between saturated fats and the development of arteriosclerosis or the anti-inflammatory effect of omega-3 fatty acids. You won't see those results overturned. >>> It's because clinical studies demonstrate that >>> unsaturated oils reduce inflammation and cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > of omega-3 fatty acids. You won't see those results > overturned. But you may find that omega-3 fatty acids in the intestinal lumen alter intestinal flora, whose influence on inflammation throughout the body is also well established, but far more complicated than all this saturated-unsaturated speculation. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > >> I have a feeling all these ideas are going to be knocked into a cocked > >> hat by advances in GI microbiology. I wouldn't be surprised if the main [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the body is also well established, but far more complicated > than all this saturated-unsaturated speculation. But the difference is that the anti-inflammatory properties of omega-3 fatty acids are solidly established by research studies, including clinical trials. Your theory has no support. You may wish to believe it for personal reasons, but that does not affect the scientific evidence. You may as well be proposing that omega-3 fatty acids are receivers of cellphone signals or communication from Planet X. >>>> I have a feeling all these ideas are going to be knocked into a cocked >>>> hat by advances in GI microbiology. I wouldn't be surprised if the main [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > be proposing that omega-3 fatty acids are receivers > of cellphone signals or communication from Planet X. I take it you're talking about diet, rather than metabolism, right? In other words, these are studies of omega-3 fatty acids being consumed in the diet and their relation to inflammation in general throughout the body? If so, the biochemical mechanisms aren't revealed by such studies. If you're talking about biochemistry -- the effect on inflammatory responses within a cell or cell nucleus directly attributable to the binding of an omega-3 fatty acid to a receptor, that reveals a mechanism, but not what's going on among the intestinal flora when various fats are ingested. All I'm suggesting is that there's a lot left to be investigated with respect to gastrointestinal microbiology, a well acknowledged fact. I'm not propounding any theory; I'm just expressing a hunch as to why there's so much speculation (not only in the newsgroup), and why the "conclusions" of so many dietary research studies are still open to such confusion and controversy. Whether DHA lowers inflammation doesn't concern me so much as why certain probiotics can make some people healthier and some sicker. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > >>> It's because clinical studies demonstrate that > >>> unsaturated oils reduce inflammation and cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > also well established, but far more complicated than all this > saturated-unsaturated speculation. There is much of truth in this, but you wouldn't find it in any clinical trial studies Mark Thorson would like to have yet. If you read Monty's site you can understand how the bugs get stressed by the highly reactive PUFAs such as Omega-3s and turn clingy to start attacking the host immune system. The PUFAs literally turn symbionts into infectious bugs ... You may not believe this but I tell you I have confirmed it in my GI tract as well as in my teeth which were eroding on a Omega-3-rich diet. I don't have time to wait another 100 years till the "experts" finally confirm what has been long known as our "grandparents wisdom" by their expensive high-tech clinical and molecular studies. Taka > -- > Marshall Price of Miami > Known to Yahoo as d021317c >>>>> It's because clinical studies demonstrate that >>>>> unsaturated oils reduce inflammation and cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > our "grandparents wisdom" by their expensive high-tech clinical and > molecular studies. But there are thousands of "symbionts" in your digestive tract, and many times as many potential ones. None is entirely good or bad, and they all influence each other in complex ways. Your personal experience is unique and individual, and useless for discovering universal principles. By all means, continue doing what works best for you, but consider carefully whether it ought to be commended to people whose conditions are utterly unknown to you. I have had no problem at all with my teeth, despite untreated cavities (a dentist said I needed at least two "root canals"), since I started using garlic two or three years ago, but I know better than to expect other people to share my experience. No one who has read Roger Williams' /Biochemical Individuality/ can come away with such sweeping generalizations. Monty's site notwithstanding, the preponderance of scientific studies have indicated that DHA especially (of which fish oil is an excellent source) has good anti-inflammatory properties, and our grandparents (in their wisdom) discovered that oils containing it were beneficial to their health. Scientists have built on that wisdom by investigating it ever since, and now not only do we know that what's good for some people might actually be bad for others, but we're starting to find out why. I find many people objecting to science, but nobody offering better alternatives. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > > RF Note: I sent this yesterday but it has not appeared on my > > server. [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > with the highly unsaturated oils and seeds/nuts after all what have > been posted here by me and Monty. ... There are just too many studies that report the beneficial effects of foods such as walnuts like http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/504600_4 which says: "Strategies to enhance the adaptability of the Mediterranean dietary pattern to other cultures continue to be explored. Recent investigations have focused on various food alternatives--including a clinical trial that found that substituting walnuts for monounsaturated fat in a Mediterranean diet enhances vascular health. [41] The purpose of the study was to test the hypothesis that walnut consumption could improve endothelial function in subjects with hypercholesterolemia. Epidemiologic studies and clinical trials have demonstrated that high nut consumption can significantly decrease the risk of CHD. The positive effects of nuts are attributed to their high content of dietary fiber, folic acid, antioxidants, and L-arginine (precursor of the vasodilator nitric oxide). Walnuts, in particular, also have a high content of ALA. The study was significant because unlike previous investigations, which focused on the effect of individual factors on vascular function, it encompassed the effects of whole foods rich in these components." -- Ron >> RF Note: I sent this yesterday but it has not appeared on my >> server. [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] > > Taka OK smartie. Don't you know that magnesium can cause exactly the same toilet problem? Make a breakfast of oats, sesame seeds and sunflower seeds and you can easily have a meal with over 500 gr of the Mg. Solutions for constipation start with pills around 250 Mg. I think you are in need of one of those ;-) > I cannot really understand why all you people are torturing yourself > with the highly unsaturated oils and seeds/nuts after all what have > been posted here by me and Monty. Just to be politically correct by > supplementing Omega-3s? I haven't been following the discussion, but I like nuts. They're convenient and last longer than the extracted oils. But I've been experimenting lately with oils from grapeseeds, almonds, canola (formerly known as rapeseed), and rice bran. If I'm not mistaken, flaxseed oil is just a newer name for linseed oil, right? And why they say grapeseed instead of grape, flaxseed instead of flax, and rice bran instead of rice is beyond me. Is there some sort of confusion they avoid? The reason I take a gram or two of salmon oil a day is because all the plant sources of omega-3 fatty acids require some sort of conversion, which salmon oil doesn't, according to Nicholas V. Perricone, who's done a few shows on PBS. A dermatologist I know calls him the "salmon" doctor! :-) SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > I haven't been following the discussion, but I like nuts. They're > convenient and last longer than the extracted oils. But I've been > experimenting lately with oils from grapeseeds, almonds, canola > (formerly known as rapeseed), and rice bran. Canola isn't quite the same as rapeseed oil. Canola is extracted from special breeds of rapeseed selected for low erucic acid (a weakly toxic fatty acid). > If I'm not mistaken, flaxseed oil is just a newer name for linseed oil, > right? And why they say grapeseed instead of grape, flaxseed instead of > flax, and rice bran instead of rice is beyond me. Is there some sort of > confusion they avoid? It's not new -- the terms flaxseed oil and linseed oil have been used interchangeably for many decades. Grapeseed oil is extracted from waste grapeseeds, not whole grapes, hence the name. Rice bran oil is extracted from waste rice bran, not whole rice grain, hence the name. > The reason I take a gram or two of salmon oil a day is because all the > plant sources of omega-3 fatty acids require some sort of conversion, > which salmon oil doesn't, according to Nicholas V. Perricone, who's done > a few shows on PBS. A dermatologist I know calls him the "salmon" > doctor! :-) For an anti-aging doctor, Perricone looks really old. He's only 59, but he looks at least 10 years older than that. Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with his advice on fish oil. >> I haven't been following the discussion, but I like nuts. They're >> convenient and last longer than the extracted oils. But I've been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > extracted from special breeds of rapeseed selected for > low erucic acid (a weakly toxic fatty acid). That's good to know. >> If I'm not mistaken, flaxseed oil is just a newer name for linseed oil, >> right? And why they say grapeseed instead of grape, flaxseed instead of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Grapeseed oil is extracted from waste grapeseeds, > not whole grapes, hence the name. But it gives the impression that there may be other oils in the plant from which the one derived from seeds must be distinguished. > Rice bran oil is extracted from waste rice bran, > not whole rice grain, hence the name. Ditto. Is there any such thing as rice germ oil? Is it better? What about wheat bran oil? >> The reason I take a gram or two of salmon oil a day is because all the >> plant sources of omega-3 fatty acids require some sort of conversion, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than that. Which is not to say that there's anything > wrong with his advice on fish oil. He's more anti-wrinkle than pro-longevity. He's into high protein consumption, body building, and maximal profit-making. It's a familiar attitude in Hollywood. His books are also error-prone, but his websites don't mention errata, and you can't get through to him. It's okay. We've got Usenet. I just feel sorry for Yale University, whose name he takes in vain. Remember the "Many Lives, Many Masters" shrink? He also touted his Yale past, not to mention his former life as the high priest of ancient Babylon! SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > If you are currently being treated with any of the following > medications, you should not use omega-3 fatty acid supplements without > first talking to your healthcare provider. No problem. I talk to myself all the time! ;-) SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c Here are just a few "highlights" I cited on my free web site: http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/fishoilquotesyoushouldread.msnw > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Alan There are articles which show the use of fish oil leads to an increase of oxidation in the body and this leads to a decrease of vitamin E in the body and it is recommended one take vitamin E if one is using a fish oil supplement. One might look into the short-chain fatty acids found only in plants .. like the one below. "Even after 16-hr exposure to induced oxidation or 24-hr incubation with cultured endothelial cells, macrophage uptake of the LDL was only marginally enhanced. The results suggest that diets sufficiently enriched in oleic acid, in addition to their LDL-lowering effect, may slow the progression of atherosclerosis by generating LDL that is highly resistant to oxidative modification." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol 87, 3894-3898, Copyright © 1990 by National Academy of Sciences -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARTICLE Low Density Lipoprotein Rich in Oleic Acid is Protected Against Oxidative Modification: Implications for Dietary Prevention of Atherosclerosis S Parthasarathy, JC Khoo, E Miller, J Barnett, JL Witztum and D Steinberg Oxidative modification of low density lipoprotein (LDL) enhances its potential atherogenicity in several ways, notably by enhancing its uptake into macrophages. In vivo studies in the rabbit show that inhibition of LDL oxidation slows the progression of atherosclerotic lesions. In the present studies, rabbits were fed either a newly developed variant sunflower oil (Trisun 80), containing more than 80% oleic acid and only 8% linoleic acid, or conventional sunflower oil, containing only 20% oleic acid and 67% linoleic acid. LDL isolated from the plasma of animals fed the variant sunflower oil was highly enriched in oleic acid and very low in linoleic acid. These oleate- rich LDL particles were remarkably resistant to oxidative modification. Even after 16-hr exposure to copper-induced oxidation or 24-hr incubation with cultured endothelial cells, macrophage uptake of the LDL was only marginally enhanced. The results suggest that diets sufficiently enriched in oleic acid, in addition to their LDL-lowering effect, may slow the progression of atherosclerosis by generating LDL that is highly resistant to oxidative modification. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
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