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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2008

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Is Hygiene our Ultimate Western Weakness? Training our Immunity.

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mike V - 04 Mar 2008 14:24 GMT
Something to think about.
Washinton Post. You may need to register.
mikeV

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR2008030303200.
html?wpisrc=newsletter

Taka - 05 Mar 2008 03:29 GMT
> Something to think about.
> Washinton Post. You may need to register.
> mikeV
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR200...

"Our immune systems are much less busy," said Jean-Francois Bach of
the French Academy of Sciences, "and so have much more strong
responses to much weaker stimuli, triggering allergies and autoimmune
diseases."

One way to look at it may be that the "strong responses to much weaker
stimuli" means having the immune system supercharged with the
arachidonic acid ...

Taka
Taka - 05 Mar 2008 05:59 GMT
> > Something to think about.
> > Washinton Post. You may need to register.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Taka

"Researchers believe the lack of exposure to potential threats early
in life leaves the immune system with fewer command-and-control cells
known as regulatory T cells, making the system more likely to
overreact or run wild."

If you look at the molecular level evidence currently available it
says that Prostaglandins (PGE2) underlie the immunosuppressive network
which boosts T regulatory (Treg) cells.  PGE2 is the way cancers evade
the immune system (PMID: 15958566) and it is also the way how
parasites suppress the host immune system (PMID: 17531535).  On the
other hand Leukotrienes (LTC4) are responsible for allergies and are
also killing parasites so the parasites suppress them (PMID:
9952384).  Have you seen many people with simultaneous cancer and
allergies?  But with Mead acid in your cells you don't need to
suppress an overreactive immune system with Tregs, neither get cancers
and perhaps LTA3 takes care of the parasites which are not a big
problem in the modern world either ...

"Still others wonder whether eating more processed food or foods
processed in different ways, or changes in the balance of certain
vitamins that can affect the immune system, such as vitamins C and E
and fish oil, are a factor."

Fish oil, another words Omega-3, is known to polarize the immune
system to higher Th2/Th1 pro-allergic ratio.  Trans-fats are jamming
the delta6-desaturase system which is essential for the production of
Mead acid.

Taka
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 05 Mar 2008 15:38 GMT
I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D
especially when
they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune
system.

Good I see you've got PMID references, I'll read them.
Taka - 06 Mar 2008 01:28 GMT
On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D
> especially when
> they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune
> system.

VitD is certainly suppressing unwanted immunity.  When I was a child I
spent lot of time outdoors and never suffered from any allergies.  It
all came in the late teenage years.  What changed at that time was
spending more time indoors, getting more artificial light at night
while studying for the exams, perhaps overexercising and switching to
the new trendy fats such as margarines.

In the interesting book "Lights Out" I have mentioned previously they
link allergies to the artificial light extending the daytime
especially during the winters.  This causes high PROLACTIN during the
day which overstimulates the immune system.
http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/content/view/18/71/

Taka
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:33 GMT
> On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Taka

When you were a child you had a big, active thymus, too.

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Marshall Price of Miami
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Taka - 23 Mar 2008 15:46 GMT
> > On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
> > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> When you were a child you had a big, active thymus, too.

This brings me to the question how can we rejuvenate thymus or the
thyroid gland?  These together with the adrenals usually get burned
out prematurely in the modern hectic world ...

Taka
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 16:49 GMT
>>> On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
>>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Taka

Until recently, it was taken for granted that one's thymus atrophied
sometime around puberty.  So "prematurely" means "right on schedule"!
As for the thyroid, I hope it keeps up with demand.  People usually slow
down as they get older, so I guess their thyroids become less active.  I
don't think normally healthy people get fat and sluggish late in life,
do they?

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Marshall Price of Miami
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Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:32 GMT
> I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D
> especially when
> they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune
> system.
>
> Good I see you've got PMID references, I'll read them.

I'd be more inclined to worry about too much UV, especially now that
everybody's getting fluorescent lights.

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Kofi - 21 Mar 2008 10:39 GMT
You're right on the money.  I've been posting on this topic for years in
sci.life-extension.  I periodically read papers on regulatory T-cells
(FoxP3+ T-cells) in order to map out their inputs and outputs.

Helminths - the intestinal parasites you mention - are not really
parasites but rather poorly adapted symbiotes.  They have wide-ranging
effects on mast cells and immunoglobulins in addition to affecting
Tregs.  I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity.  
It does work.

<http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-93/features/ofparasitesandpo264/>
<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/695>
<www.ovamed.de>

By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a
central role for Treg function?  It means every doctor prescribing a
long-term COX-2 inhibitor for rheumatoid arthritis is guilty of
malpractice (especially when you further consider the role PGE2 plays in
mobilizing stem cells to make new cartilage).

Vitamin D3 does more than simply switching on Tregs via the VDR.  Its
downstream product, cathelicidin, has direct wound-healing properties
and antiinflammatory effects on mast cells.  It also needs proper
histone acetylation to pull all this off.

When you scrutinize the actions of NSAIDs and antibiotics coupled with a
low-fiber, sugary American diet, it's easy to see why so many people get
sick.

Tregs:

On signals:  FoxP3 (Neurovax), IL-2 (via CD25), IL-10, TGF-beta, HO-1
(glutamine), alpha-MSH (redheads have a mutation affecting alpha-MSH
binding), Vitamin D3 (also some bile acids via this receptor), PGE2
(COX-2), HSP-60 (acetyl-l-carnitine), androgens (via greater carnitine
transport?), estrogens, DHEA, helminths, HDAC inhibitors (typically via
butyrate from fiber digested by gut bacteria - which requires carnitine
for uptake and metabolization), vasoactive intestinal polypeptide,
probiotics (via butyrate synthesis; loss of butyrate also enhances
fungal overgrowth and chitin production, which can set off allergies and
sinusitis)

Off signals:  mTOR (arginine, leucine; glutamine on the other hand is an
mTOR inhibitor and often given for intestinal support), TNF-alpha, CD8,
IL-21,IL-6, possibly caffeine (via neutral endopeptidase which blocks
VIP)

F.Y.I.  Also requiring histone acetylation are the genes for the mu
opioid receptor and metallothionein, the central metal detoxifier.  I've
posted on this as well.
Taka - 23 Mar 2008 02:41 GMT
> By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a
> central role for Treg function?  It means every doctor prescribing a
> long-term COX-2 inhibitor for rheumatoid arthritis is guilty of
> malpractice (especially when you further consider the role PGE2 plays in
> mobilizing stem cells to make new cartilage).

As are the supplement industries selling long chain Omega-3 rich oils
to people.  DHA and EPA acts the same as NSAIDs.  Also the heat
treatment of linoleic acid (LA) rich cooking oils may convert LA to
its trans isomer which jams the Omega-6 (PGE2) metabolism as well ...

Taka
Kofi - 27 Mar 2008 09:55 GMT
In article
<0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8001@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,

> > By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a
> > central role for Treg function?  It means every doctor prescribing a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Taka

This points to an interesting gap in the autoimmune literature.  As a
competing substrate with arachidonic acid, EPA can knock PGE2 production
into PGE3.  While I'm aware of references linking chronic COX-2
inhibition to worsening Treg function (this blocks both PGE2 and PGE3
production), I've not seen anything on fish oil consumption and Tregs
directly, nor have I come across information as to how PGE2 might dock
to a receptor on the Treg.  It's possible that PGE3 is docking to
whatever receptor PGE2 is hitting to activate Tregs - so by consuming
high levels of fish oils you're reducing painful levels of inflammation
from PGE2 without damaging your protective mechanisms against
autoimmunity.  It's also possible that a downstream product of EPA like
a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative
anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2.
Taka - 27 Mar 2008 10:09 GMT
> In article
> <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative
> anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2.

I think it's the second one, Kofi.  You cannot probably find any study
showing STIMULATORY effects of PGE3.  All it does is it competitively
inhibits.  Perhaps some Omega-3 derivatives can stimulate some nuclear
PPARs but not the receptors driving cell division and "oxidative
stress".  Omega-3 eicosanoids are strong inhibitors while Omega-6
eicosanoids are strong stimulants.  The Omega-9 (i.e. Mead acid)
eicosanoids are somewhere in the middle (perhaps most optimal for
health) but not studied much (see my older post on the Mead acid
eicosanoid "family").

Taka
Marshall Price - 27 Mar 2008 11:34 GMT
> In article
> <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8001@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative
> anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2.

I can't believe you guys.

Are you telling me when you go to a doctor complaining of rheumatoid
arthritis you want him to ignore you completely and focus on "mobilizing
stem cells to make new cartilage"?  And if he doesn't, you'll charge him
with malpractice, and the fish oil manufacturers, too?

Golly gee is all I can say!

(And what's all this about the second annual Pro Golf Exhibition, anyway?)

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Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Taka - 27 Mar 2008 16:10 GMT
> > In article
> > <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> stem cells to make new cartilage"?  And if he doesn't, you'll charge him
> with malpractice, and the fish oil manufacturers, too?

Think about the reason you get the arthritis in the first place - the
doctor never does, he just treats the symptoms for money ...

Taka
Kofi - 28 Mar 2008 23:02 GMT
> I can't believe you guys.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> (And what's all this about the second annual Pro Golf Exhibition, anyway?)

You get arthritis because your regulatory T-cells can't block your B-
and T-cells from reacting to your own tissue.  What do celebrex and
other Cox-2 inhibitors do?  They block your regulatory T-cells.  People
going to the doctor to get an autoimmune condition treated shouldn't get
the superficial pain taken care of at the expense of making the
autoimmune problem worse - particularly when they're shelling out
potentially thousands a month for specialized anti-TNF-a antibodies
which are specifically designed to boost Treg function and suppress the
very same autoimmunity.
Marshall Price - 29 Mar 2008 02:06 GMT
>> I can't believe you guys.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> which are specifically designed to boost Treg function and suppress the
> very same autoimmunity.

I've misplaced my book on auto-immune diseases at the moment, but I
bought it at a medical bookstore, and it contained plenty of information
on alternative therapies and recent developments in the field.

So it's not as if endocrinologists, rheumatologists, pathologists, etc.
aren't keeping abreast of the issues.

I'm sure there are incompetent doctors here and there, including many
who are reluctant to refer patients to specialists, but for the most
part, I'm very impressed with doctors, particularly medical school
professors and contributors to textbooks.

If your attitudes aren't generally dismissive of the medical profession,
I'm sorry I broke in, and I apologize.  But I hear so many curmudgeons
complaining that all the experts are all wrong, it does tend to get my
hackles up.  :-)

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Marshall Price of Miami
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Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Mar 2008 14:38 GMT
> If your attitudes aren't generally dismissive of the medical profession,
> I'm sorry I broke in, and I apologize.  But I hear so many curmudgeons
> complaining that all the experts are all wrong, it does tend to get my
> hackles up.  :-)

You Positively can blame this phenomena on science, biomedicine, and
your Science Geeks in particularly always spotting off at the mouth
about stuff that they know absolutely nothing about.

Natural health, rather than biomedicine, offers the best approach to
life.
--
john h gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/
DZ - 23 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT
> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity.  

If I were taking whipworm eggs, should I be revealing that on a first
date?
Always Learning - 24 Mar 2008 00:39 GMT
>> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity.  
>
>If I were taking whipworm eggs, should I be revealing that on a first
>date?

Someone once said dried chicken feces would prevent cancer and I said
even if it prevented death itself I wouldn't take it.

Some of you people take some weird combinations of things thinking it
will cure all.

All you NEED is food, in any quanity or variety, to survive and have a
long life.

MANY millions of people eat whatever they want, never exercise and
live into their 80s
DZ - 24 Mar 2008 22:04 GMT
> DZ:
>>> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity.  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> survive and have a long life.  MANY millions of people eat whatever
> they want, never exercise and live into their 80s

Sorry, but we over here are all well into our 80s already. And Kofi is
also bald I figure, because he often crossposts to some balding group
which brings followups from most hideous trolls there are (but they
are also geriatric).

So, like it or not, now it's time for some pig-whipworm!

P.S. I'm cold
P.P.S. Get off my lawn!
Taka - 25 Mar 2008 02:35 GMT
Some other potential allergy causes to consider:

1) Use of synthetic fabrics (carpets, curtains, clothes) - just look
at the (bed)room dust in bright sunshine, the long term health effects
of plastic-based fabrics have not been tested, how is our immune
system dealing with these inhaled pieces?

2) The use of soaps/detergents/shampoons - we are removing the
protective natural lipid coating on our skin and hairs on daily basis
and thus get in closer contact with many allergens such as pollen
grains, moreover detergents like SDS are aggressive and could act as
adjuvants on their own (how many allergies are among the Sumo
wrestlers who wash their hairs only with oil?)

3) EMF fields - possible long term effect on the brain centers
controlling immune responses

Taka
Kofi - 27 Mar 2008 10:01 GMT
In article
<33c37166-1c66-4603-9253-3f517094e7ae@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,

> Some other potential allergy causes to consider:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Taka

I can't speak to any of this specifically, but I do know that there's an
interesting chain of butyrate production in the body which results in
protection against chronic pain (via mu opioid receptor expression), gut
toxicity (metallothionein (MT) induction) and autoimmunity (FOXP3 in
Tregs).  Gut-friendly bacteria digest fiber into butyrate.  Butyrate is
a histone deacetylase inhibitor.  The three genes I've mentioned all
require histone acetylation to function properly.  MT is particularly
important to detoxifying pesticides, metals and other substances which
are toxic to cells.  Without it, toxins build up and it's possible the
immune system gets dragged into it and starts making antibodies.  
Vitamin D3 plays an important role in this detoxification process as
well.
David Wright - 25 Mar 2008 02:40 GMT
>> DZ:
>>>> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity.  
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>P.S. I'm cold
>P.P.S. Get off my lawn!

I laughed out loud for a full minute over this post.  Thank you!

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?"
                                                       -- Bill Maher
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:30 GMT
>>> Something to think about.
>>> Washinton Post. You may need to register.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> the delta6-desaturase system which is essential for the production of
> Mead acid.

I've known some very long-lived people who were positively careless
about hygiene and others who were scrupulously clean.

One friend lives on a boat infested with roaches and rarely bothers
washing his hands or cleaning his frying pan or utensils.  He never
brushes his teeth or washes his clothes.  But he's in great condition,
and gets up at the crack of dawn every day and dives into the water to
observe the fish who live under his boat.

A lady I know keeps her house spotless and washes her clothes every day.
 All her pots and kitchen utensils look shiny and new, and she cleans
all her vegetables carefully before cooking them.  She shops for fresh
food daily, too.

This is a very old question, and I doubt it'll ever be answered with a
simple yes or no.

On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that frequent infections and
chronic diseases are generally harmful to your health, and at least some
of the damage they cause is cumulative and irreversible.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
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Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Mar 2008 14:28 GMT
> Something to think about.
> Washinton Post. You may need to register.
> mikeV
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR200...

I prefer to call the phenomena: Moms who take their children to the
emergency room for antibiotics every time they sneeze.  And, insist
that anything less is neither good enough or strong enough for them.

These nuts jobs are real!!!!

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