Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2008
Is Hygiene our Ultimate Western Weakness? Training our Immunity.
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mike V - 04 Mar 2008 14:24 GMT Something to think about. Washinton Post. You may need to register. mikeV
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR2008030303200. html?wpisrc=newsletter
Taka - 05 Mar 2008 03:29 GMT > Something to think about. > Washinton Post. You may need to register. > mikeV > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR200... "Our immune systems are much less busy," said Jean-Francois Bach of the French Academy of Sciences, "and so have much more strong responses to much weaker stimuli, triggering allergies and autoimmune diseases."
One way to look at it may be that the "strong responses to much weaker stimuli" means having the immune system supercharged with the arachidonic acid ...
Taka
Taka - 05 Mar 2008 05:59 GMT > > Something to think about. > > Washinton Post. You may need to register. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Taka "Researchers believe the lack of exposure to potential threats early in life leaves the immune system with fewer command-and-control cells known as regulatory T cells, making the system more likely to overreact or run wild."
If you look at the molecular level evidence currently available it says that Prostaglandins (PGE2) underlie the immunosuppressive network which boosts T regulatory (Treg) cells. PGE2 is the way cancers evade the immune system (PMID: 15958566) and it is also the way how parasites suppress the host immune system (PMID: 17531535). On the other hand Leukotrienes (LTC4) are responsible for allergies and are also killing parasites so the parasites suppress them (PMID: 9952384). Have you seen many people with simultaneous cancer and allergies? But with Mead acid in your cells you don't need to suppress an overreactive immune system with Tregs, neither get cancers and perhaps LTA3 takes care of the parasites which are not a big problem in the modern world either ...
"Still others wonder whether eating more processed food or foods processed in different ways, or changes in the balance of certain vitamins that can affect the immune system, such as vitamins C and E and fish oil, are a factor."
Fish oil, another words Omega-3, is known to polarize the immune system to higher Th2/Th1 pro-allergic ratio. Trans-fats are jamming the delta6-desaturase system which is essential for the production of Mead acid.
Taka
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 05 Mar 2008 15:38 GMT I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D especially when they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune system.
Good I see you've got PMID references, I'll read them.
Taka - 06 Mar 2008 01:28 GMT On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D > especially when > they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune > system. VitD is certainly suppressing unwanted immunity. When I was a child I spent lot of time outdoors and never suffered from any allergies. It all came in the late teenage years. What changed at that time was spending more time indoors, getting more artificial light at night while studying for the exams, perhaps overexercising and switching to the new trendy fats such as margarines.
In the interesting book "Lights Out" I have mentioned previously they link allergies to the artificial light extending the daytime especially during the winters. This causes high PROLACTIN during the day which overstimulates the immune system. http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/content/view/18/71/
Taka
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:33 GMT > On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Taka When you were a child you had a big, active thymus, too.
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Taka - 23 Mar 2008 15:46 GMT > > On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" > > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > When you were a child you had a big, active thymus, too. This brings me to the question how can we rejuvenate thymus or the thyroid gland? These together with the adrenals usually get burned out prematurely in the modern hectic world ...
Taka
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 16:49 GMT >>> On Mar 6, 12:38 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" >>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Taka Until recently, it was taken for granted that one's thymus atrophied sometime around puberty. So "prematurely" means "right on schedule"! As for the thyroid, I hope it keeps up with demand. People usually slow down as they get older, so I guess their thyroids become less active. I don't think normally healthy people get fat and sluggish late in life, do they?
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Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:32 GMT > I'll suggest infants get too little UV and too little vitamin D > especially when > they go to solid food. And this results in an over active immune > system. > > Good I see you've got PMID references, I'll read them. I'd be more inclined to worry about too much UV, especially now that everybody's getting fluorescent lights.
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Kofi - 21 Mar 2008 10:39 GMT You're right on the money. I've been posting on this topic for years in sci.life-extension. I periodically read papers on regulatory T-cells (FoxP3+ T-cells) in order to map out their inputs and outputs.
Helminths - the intestinal parasites you mention - are not really parasites but rather poorly adapted symbiotes. They have wide-ranging effects on mast cells and immunoglobulins in addition to affecting Tregs. I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity. It does work.
<http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-93/features/ofparasitesandpo264/> <http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/695> <www.ovamed.de>
By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a central role for Treg function? It means every doctor prescribing a long-term COX-2 inhibitor for rheumatoid arthritis is guilty of malpractice (especially when you further consider the role PGE2 plays in mobilizing stem cells to make new cartilage).
Vitamin D3 does more than simply switching on Tregs via the VDR. Its downstream product, cathelicidin, has direct wound-healing properties and antiinflammatory effects on mast cells. It also needs proper histone acetylation to pull all this off.
When you scrutinize the actions of NSAIDs and antibiotics coupled with a low-fiber, sugary American diet, it's easy to see why so many people get sick.
Tregs:
On signals: FoxP3 (Neurovax), IL-2 (via CD25), IL-10, TGF-beta, HO-1 (glutamine), alpha-MSH (redheads have a mutation affecting alpha-MSH binding), Vitamin D3 (also some bile acids via this receptor), PGE2 (COX-2), HSP-60 (acetyl-l-carnitine), androgens (via greater carnitine transport?), estrogens, DHEA, helminths, HDAC inhibitors (typically via butyrate from fiber digested by gut bacteria - which requires carnitine for uptake and metabolization), vasoactive intestinal polypeptide, probiotics (via butyrate synthesis; loss of butyrate also enhances fungal overgrowth and chitin production, which can set off allergies and sinusitis)
Off signals: mTOR (arginine, leucine; glutamine on the other hand is an mTOR inhibitor and often given for intestinal support), TNF-alpha, CD8, IL-21,IL-6, possibly caffeine (via neutral endopeptidase which blocks VIP)
F.Y.I. Also requiring histone acetylation are the genes for the mu opioid receptor and metallothionein, the central metal detoxifier. I've posted on this as well.
Taka - 23 Mar 2008 02:41 GMT > By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a > central role for Treg function? It means every doctor prescribing a > long-term COX-2 inhibitor for rheumatoid arthritis is guilty of > malpractice (especially when you further consider the role PGE2 plays in > mobilizing stem cells to make new cartilage). As are the supplement industries selling long chain Omega-3 rich oils to people. DHA and EPA acts the same as NSAIDs. Also the heat treatment of linoleic acid (LA) rich cooking oils may convert LA to its trans isomer which jams the Omega-6 (PGE2) metabolism as well ...
Taka
Kofi - 27 Mar 2008 09:55 GMT In article <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8001@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > By the way, you do realize the implications of PGE2 having such a > > central role for Treg function? It means every doctor prescribing a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Taka This points to an interesting gap in the autoimmune literature. As a competing substrate with arachidonic acid, EPA can knock PGE2 production into PGE3. While I'm aware of references linking chronic COX-2 inhibition to worsening Treg function (this blocks both PGE2 and PGE3 production), I've not seen anything on fish oil consumption and Tregs directly, nor have I come across information as to how PGE2 might dock to a receptor on the Treg. It's possible that PGE3 is docking to whatever receptor PGE2 is hitting to activate Tregs - so by consuming high levels of fish oils you're reducing painful levels of inflammation from PGE2 without damaging your protective mechanisms against autoimmunity. It's also possible that a downstream product of EPA like a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2.
Taka - 27 Mar 2008 10:09 GMT > In article > <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative > anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2. I think it's the second one, Kofi. You cannot probably find any study showing STIMULATORY effects of PGE3. All it does is it competitively inhibits. Perhaps some Omega-3 derivatives can stimulate some nuclear PPARs but not the receptors driving cell division and "oxidative stress". Omega-3 eicosanoids are strong inhibitors while Omega-6 eicosanoids are strong stimulants. The Omega-9 (i.e. Mead acid) eicosanoids are somewhere in the middle (perhaps most optimal for health) but not studied much (see my older post on the Mead acid eicosanoid "family").
Taka
Marshall Price - 27 Mar 2008 11:34 GMT > In article > <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8001@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > a resolvin (newly discovered, little studied) is having an alternative > anti-inflammatory effect to compensate for the loss of PGE2. I can't believe you guys.
Are you telling me when you go to a doctor complaining of rheumatoid arthritis you want him to ignore you completely and focus on "mobilizing stem cells to make new cartilage"? And if he doesn't, you'll charge him with malpractice, and the fish oil manufacturers, too?
Golly gee is all I can say!
(And what's all this about the second annual Pro Golf Exhibition, anyway?)
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Taka - 27 Mar 2008 16:10 GMT > > In article > > <0af027ab-2fb7-488a-9c7c-bb1af2db8...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > stem cells to make new cartilage"? And if he doesn't, you'll charge him > with malpractice, and the fish oil manufacturers, too? Think about the reason you get the arthritis in the first place - the doctor never does, he just treats the symptoms for money ...
Taka
Kofi - 28 Mar 2008 23:02 GMT > I can't believe you guys. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > (And what's all this about the second annual Pro Golf Exhibition, anyway?) You get arthritis because your regulatory T-cells can't block your B- and T-cells from reacting to your own tissue. What do celebrex and other Cox-2 inhibitors do? They block your regulatory T-cells. People going to the doctor to get an autoimmune condition treated shouldn't get the superficial pain taken care of at the expense of making the autoimmune problem worse - particularly when they're shelling out potentially thousands a month for specialized anti-TNF-a antibodies which are specifically designed to boost Treg function and suppress the very same autoimmunity.
Marshall Price - 29 Mar 2008 02:06 GMT >> I can't believe you guys. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > which are specifically designed to boost Treg function and suppress the > very same autoimmunity. I've misplaced my book on auto-immune diseases at the moment, but I bought it at a medical bookstore, and it contained plenty of information on alternative therapies and recent developments in the field.
So it's not as if endocrinologists, rheumatologists, pathologists, etc. aren't keeping abreast of the issues.
I'm sure there are incompetent doctors here and there, including many who are reluctant to refer patients to specialists, but for the most part, I'm very impressed with doctors, particularly medical school professors and contributors to textbooks.
If your attitudes aren't generally dismissive of the medical profession, I'm sorry I broke in, and I apologize. But I hear so many curmudgeons complaining that all the experts are all wrong, it does tend to get my hackles up. :-)
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Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Mar 2008 14:38 GMT > If your attitudes aren't generally dismissive of the medical profession, > I'm sorry I broke in, and I apologize. But I hear so many curmudgeons > complaining that all the experts are all wrong, it does tend to get my > hackles up. :-) You Positively can blame this phenomena on science, biomedicine, and your Science Geeks in particularly always spotting off at the mouth about stuff that they know absolutely nothing about.
Natural health, rather than biomedicine, offers the best approach to life. -- john h gohde http://naturalhealthperspective.com/
DZ - 23 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT > I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity. If I were taking whipworm eggs, should I be revealing that on a first date?
Always Learning - 24 Mar 2008 00:39 GMT >> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity. > >If I were taking whipworm eggs, should I be revealing that on a first >date? Someone once said dried chicken feces would prevent cancer and I said even if it prevented death itself I wouldn't take it.
Some of you people take some weird combinations of things thinking it will cure all.
All you NEED is food, in any quanity or variety, to survive and have a long life.
MANY millions of people eat whatever they want, never exercise and live into their 80s
DZ - 24 Mar 2008 22:04 GMT > DZ: >>> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > survive and have a long life. MANY millions of people eat whatever > they want, never exercise and live into their 80s Sorry, but we over here are all well into our 80s already. And Kofi is also bald I figure, because he often crossposts to some balding group which brings followups from most hideous trolls there are (but they are also geriatric).
So, like it or not, now it's time for some pig-whipworm!
P.S. I'm cold P.P.S. Get off my lawn!
Taka - 25 Mar 2008 02:35 GMT Some other potential allergy causes to consider:
1) Use of synthetic fabrics (carpets, curtains, clothes) - just look at the (bed)room dust in bright sunshine, the long term health effects of plastic-based fabrics have not been tested, how is our immune system dealing with these inhaled pieces?
2) The use of soaps/detergents/shampoons - we are removing the protective natural lipid coating on our skin and hairs on daily basis and thus get in closer contact with many allergens such as pollen grains, moreover detergents like SDS are aggressive and could act as adjuvants on their own (how many allergies are among the Sumo wrestlers who wash their hairs only with oil?)
3) EMF fields - possible long term effect on the brain centers controlling immune responses
Taka
Kofi - 27 Mar 2008 10:01 GMT In article <33c37166-1c66-4603-9253-3f517094e7ae@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Some other potential allergy causes to consider: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Taka I can't speak to any of this specifically, but I do know that there's an interesting chain of butyrate production in the body which results in protection against chronic pain (via mu opioid receptor expression), gut toxicity (metallothionein (MT) induction) and autoimmunity (FOXP3 in Tregs). Gut-friendly bacteria digest fiber into butyrate. Butyrate is a histone deacetylase inhibitor. The three genes I've mentioned all require histone acetylation to function properly. MT is particularly important to detoxifying pesticides, metals and other substances which are toxic to cells. Without it, toxins build up and it's possible the immune system gets dragged into it and starts making antibodies. Vitamin D3 plays an important role in this detoxification process as well.
David Wright - 25 Mar 2008 02:40 GMT >> DZ: >>>> I currently take pig whipworm eggs to suppress my autoimmunity. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >P.S. I'm cold >P.P.S. Get off my lawn! I laughed out loud for a full minute over this post. Thank you!
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Marshall Price - 23 Mar 2008 15:30 GMT >>> Something to think about. >>> Washinton Post. You may need to register. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > the delta6-desaturase system which is essential for the production of > Mead acid. I've known some very long-lived people who were positively careless about hygiene and others who were scrupulously clean.
One friend lives on a boat infested with roaches and rarely bothers washing his hands or cleaning his frying pan or utensils. He never brushes his teeth or washes his clothes. But he's in great condition, and gets up at the crack of dawn every day and dives into the water to observe the fish who live under his boat.
A lady I know keeps her house spotless and washes her clothes every day. All her pots and kitchen utensils look shiny and new, and she cleans all her vegetables carefully before cooking them. She shops for fresh food daily, too.
This is a very old question, and I doubt it'll ever be answered with a simple yes or no.
On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that frequent infections and chronic diseases are generally harmful to your health, and at least some of the damage they cause is cumulative and irreversible.
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Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Mar 2008 14:28 GMT > Something to think about. > Washinton Post. You may need to register. > mikeV > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR200... I prefer to call the phenomena: Moms who take their children to the emergency room for antibiotics every time they sneeze. And, insist that anything less is neither good enough or strong enough for them.
These nuts jobs are real!!!!
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