Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2004
Enterosorbent
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George W. Cherry - 16 Feb 2004 02:44 GMT Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan?
POLYPHEPAN is an efficient ecologically benign enterosorbent prepared from the hydrolysis lignin. POLYPHEPAN is 5-10 times more potent in absorbability than activated charcoal, it stimulates the intestinal function, possesses antioxidative effect, increases the phagocytic activity of the reticulo-endothelial system. The presence of functional groups allows POLYPHEPAN to absorb and retain not only various types of microorganisms and the products of their vital activity, including toxins, but also cholesterol, bilirubin, lipids, bile acids, ureas, serotonin, histamin, and the products of mast cells. POLYPHEPAN can adsorb radioactive elements, heavy metal salts, nitrates and nitrites. POLYPHEPAN is non-toxic and completely evacuated from the intestinal. It is indicated to prolong treatment in the case when detoxication of the organism is needed. Besides, POLYPHEPAN can successfully be used while therapeutic fasting. The product can also be applied locally for the treatment of skin diseases and wounds.
John 'the Man' - 16 Feb 2004 04:08 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry rambled on about "Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan? Has anyone ever heard of science-based quackery?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Jeff - 16 Feb 2004 19:20 GMT > jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk > Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Science-based quackery? That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
All the best,
Jeff
John 'the Man' - 17 Feb 2004 04:01 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow Jeff rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>Science-based quackery? That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Life-Extension is an example, Dim Wit!
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Tim Tyler - 16 Feb 2004 13:16 GMT George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > treatment in the case when detoxication of the organism is needed. Besides, > POLYPHEPAN can successfully be used while therapeutic fasting. [...] - http://www.inchemistry.irk.ru:8080/medicine/medicinen.htm
I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does...
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George W. Cherry - 17 Feb 2004 06:26 GMT > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does... You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it because I take it in gelatin capsules.
George W. Cherry
John 'the Man' - 17 Feb 2004 17:00 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>> I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does... > >You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it >because I take it in gelatin capsules. Healthy people do not need to take activated charcoal.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Hua Kul - 19 Feb 2004 19:56 GMT > jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk > Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ha, ... Hah, Ha! No one is entirely healthy.
Just thought you might want to know.
--Hua Kul
John 'the Man' - 20 Feb 2004 02:19 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow Hua Kul rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>No one is entirely healthy. "... you have my sympathies" Science Officer Ash to Ripley, in the movie ALIEN.
Tim Tyler - 20 Feb 2004 19:35 GMT George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
[POLYPHEPAN]
> > - http://www.inchemistry.irk.ru:8080/medicine/medicinen.htm > > > > I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does... > > You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it > because I take it in gelatin capsules. Well - as you can probably imagine - it tastes like... charcoal.
Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay.
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George W. Cherry - 21 Feb 2004 06:56 GMT > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay. When I PubMed <enterosorbent AND betonite> I don't get any abstracts. How much bentonite do you take and when do you take it?
George W. Cherry
Tim Tyler - 21 Feb 2004 22:56 GMT George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> > Well - as you can probably imagine - it tastes like... charcoal. > > > > Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay. > > When I PubMed <enterosorbent AND betonite> I don't get > any abstracts. <charcoal AND bentonite> produces 27 studies, though.
> How much bentonite do you take and when do you take it? As much as I can easily manage (not much since it tastes like clay...) ...and when I'm fasting.
Carbon is probably better - if it is pure.
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George W. Cherry - 22 Feb 2004 04:39 GMT > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > As much as I can easily manage (not much since it tastes like clay...) > ...and when I'm fasting. Add some chocolate syrup. Oops, you're fasting.
> Carbon is probably better - if it is pure. Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful when fasting. What are you sopping up?
George
Tim Tyler - 22 Feb 2004 14:33 GMT George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons > (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful > when fasting. What are you sopping up? Fasting /seems/ like the best time to take them - but I don't know if that issue has been studied.
Eating enterosorbents with food may not be the best thing to do:
You put all the work into eating food - and then don't get so much out of it - and the resulting nutrient profile may be significantly distorted.
Perhaps a boon for those who want to do CR - and still eat cream cakes, though - I suppose ;-)
Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its share of fat-soluble toxins. As well as helping these get excreted, there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started fasting to get rid of as well.
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George W. Cherry - 23 Feb 2004 05:54 GMT > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Eating enterosorbents with food may not be the best thing to do: Right, I take carefully selected and expensive supplements which activated charcoal might absorb. I'm rather afraid to take (or not take!) activated charcoal with food. I think that from now on I'll take it only between meals.
> You put all the work into eating food - and then don't get so > much out of it - and the resulting nutrient profile may be > significantly distorted. > > Perhaps a boon for those who want to do CR - and still eat cream > cakes, though - I suppose ;-) It's certainly more elegant than "sham eating" (a practice which seems to have dropped out of these annals).
> Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its > share of fat-soluble toxins. As well as helping these get excreted, > there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started > fasting to get rid of as well. I think that I'll take my activated charcoal in the middle of the night, when my bladder wakes me up.
George
Tim Tyler - 23 Feb 2004 10:56 GMT George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> > > Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons > > > (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to take (or not take!) activated charcoal with food. I think > that from now on I'll take it only between meals. If we assume it works as a sort of crypto-calorie restriction - by stopping elements from the food from being absorbed at well - then taking it far away from food might nullify any side effects - but is likely to equally nullify any benefits.
I suspect this sort of explanation of its action is quite likely - but I don't think we know for sure.
At some point there are elements ejected by the liver into the intestines that are intended for excretion - and probably are not a good idea to re-absorb - and bacterial flora can get a bit out of hand sometimes - and absorbing their effluent may not always be desirable.
*If* you could *selectively* block absorbsion at those points then *that* might be a good idea - but I don't think charcoal from the top is likely to pull this trick off.
Also, I worry about charcoal's purity and safety. I don't usually eat burned stuff - and even if it /is/ free of impurities, what if I eat too much - and those highly-reactive carbon atoms stick to *me* - and not to my food?
By contrast, clay seems less likely to make it out of my digestive tract. If it /does/ get stuck to bits of me, it seems more likely to become unstuck again.
Safety information for carbon says:
``Harmful if ingested in quantity - IVN-MUS LD50 440 mg/kg''
- http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CA/carbon.html
That might be a fair sized figure - but ten times bigger would be a little bit more reassuring.
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Moosh:) - 19 Mar 2004 15:36 GMT >George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started >fasting to get rid of as well. So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream?
Tim Tyler - 22 Mar 2004 10:22 GMT "Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> >> Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons > >> (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream? No - the gut.
The liver can move things from the blood stream into the gut - via the bile duct - though.
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Moosh:) - 26 Mar 2004 08:22 GMT >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted: >> >George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >The liver can move things from the blood stream into the gut - >via the bile duct - though. What sort of things?
Tim Tyler - 26 Mar 2004 11:37 GMT "Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >> >Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its > >> >share of fat-soluble toxins. As well as helping these get excreted, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What sort of things? E.g. bilirubin - and other waste products.
Some bilirubin breakdown products are reabsorbed and then eliminated via the kidneys. It might be that enterosorbents could prevent that from happening.
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Moosh:) - 27 Mar 2004 08:23 GMT >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted: >> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Some bilirubin breakdown products are reabsorbed and then eliminated >via the kidneys. Really? Are you sure of this?
> It might be that enterosorbents could prevent that >from happening. If it in fact does happen.
But bilirubin is not an "(exo)toxin". This is just a normal waste product. I want to know what you were referring to when you said :
"Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its share of fat-soluble toxins. As well as helping these get excreted, there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started fasting to get rid of as well."
Tim Tyler - 27 Mar 2004 14:13 GMT "Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted: > >> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted: [...]
> >> >> So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Really? Are you sure of this? Yes.
It is a common fate of many such compounds - e.g.:
``The liver is well known to metabolize and excrete into bile many compounds and toxins, thus eliminating them (usually) from the body. Examples can be found among both endogenous molecules (steroid hormones, calcium) and exogenous compounds (many antibiotics and metabolites of drugs). A substantial number of these compounds are reabsorbed in the small intestine and ultimately eliminated by the kidney.''
- http://biology.about.com/library/organs/bldigestliver4.htm
To name one of the bilirubin metabolites so excreted:
``After the excretion to the alimentary tract, the bilirubin is reduced to colorless urobilinogen by intestinal pathogens, followed by oxidation to colored urobilin (stercobilin) which is excreted out of the body by the alimentary tract. A part of urobilinogen is reabsorbed from the alimentary tract and excreted out of the body by the way of the kidney. Therefore, the detection of urinary bilirubin and urobilinogen is of important significance in the diagnosis of liver diseases.''
- http://health.seed.net.tw/chiaungo/profes/bilirubin.htm
> But bilirubin is not an "(exo)toxin". This is just a normal waste > product. I want to know what you were referring to when you said : [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > excreted, there's probably still some junk in your guts from before > you started fasting to get rid of as well." As I said: fat-soluble toxins.
These include pesticides, fertilisers, heavy metals and petrochemical products.
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Moosh:) - 19 Mar 2004 15:36 GMT >> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or >quoted: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >(aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful >when fasting. What are you sopping up? Don't they sop up just about anything? Friend or foe?
George W. Cherry - 22 Feb 2004 04:48 GMT > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > <charcoal AND bentonite> produces 27 studies, though. <activated charcoal AND bentonite> produces 9 abstracts. One of them mentions the reduction of acidosis during fasting.
Kristofer D. Dale - 24 Feb 2004 23:39 GMT > Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay. I'll stick with my diatomaceous earth, it tastes like silica... ;^]
 Signature _o Kristofer Dale, _ \<,_ ragged individualist, _____( )/ ( )_____ statistic at large...
p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
John 'the Man' - 25 Feb 2004 03:52 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>I'll stick with my diatomaceous earth, it tastes like silica... ;^] Good to the last drop, I hear!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
"... you have my sympathies" Science Officer Ash to Ripley, in the movie ALIEN.
Kristofer D. Dale - 07 Mar 2004 19:10 GMT > Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of credibility, mon sewer... ;^]
 Signature _o Kristofer Dale, _ \<,_ ragged individualist, _____( )/ ( )_____ statistic at large...
p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
John 'the Man' - 07 Mar 2004 20:53 GMT Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>> Ha, ... Hah, Ha! > >Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of >credibility, mon sewer... ;^] Shows your complete lack of knowledge of my activity and skills. :)
2004 has been a good year for me.
-Started issuing a formal weekly newsletter on the latest prevention and healthy lifestyles research.
-Data mining has been extremely successful for me. :)
* How the mind hurts and heals the body. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4736318&dopt=Abstract Am Psychol. 2004 Jan; 59(1): 29-40. PMID: 14736318
Full text of the article is available at: http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/press_releases/january_2004/amp59129.pdf.
This is a FREE full text review of the last 100 years of scientific research on the psychosocial factors of health that was published in a peer-reviewed online journal of the APA.
* John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Research Network on Socioeconomic Status and Health http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/overview.htm
Notice that is this is an educational domain!!!!
For those with a brain who can recognize the significance of what they are looking out this URL is the top node of a treasure trove of information on published research that is *directly* applicable to the psychosocial reporting objectives of both my web site and weekly newsletter.
*Hauptseite aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite **The German edition of Wikipedia is a treasure trove of information on the philosophy of alternative medicine.
*And, today, I just solved the mysteries of the Low-Carb / Aktins Diet. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Yes, 2004 will be the year that I will accomplish my dream of turning my web site into a treasure trove of scientific information on the psychological factors that affect health. -- John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Health-with-Attitude is a weekly newsletter for people trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/
John 'the Man' - 11 Mar 2004 12:32 GMT >*Hauptseite >aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie >http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite >**The German edition of Wikipedia is a treasure trove of information >on the philosophy of alternative medicine. Just in case that you do not know. The Google toolbar for your web browser offers transparent translation of the German, as well as French and Spanish languages.
February 2004 statistics: 54,000 articles --As the next biggest edition, the German edition is only one quarter the size of the English version. --Makes the significance of the following findings even more significant. -Coverage of the http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltgesundheitsorganisation Weltgesundheitsorganisation (World Health Organization) , http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundheit Gesundheit (Health) , and http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophylaxe Prophylaxe (Prophylaxis) articles. -Informative rather than obscuring --The significance of the information is clearly pointed out. --Friendly and inviting tone to health and medical articles. -Offers full coverage of preventive medicine and comments on alternative treatment methods can be found in the articles on conventional medicine.
-- http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risikomedizin Risikomedizin (Risk medicine) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risikofaktor Risikofaktor (Modifiable Risk Factors) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorsorgeprogramm Vorsorgeprogramm (Screening program) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorsorgeuntersuchung Früherkennung von Krankheiten (Early recognition of diseases) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene Hygiene -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkologie Onkologie (the science of cancer). ---Offers comments on alternative treatment methods of treating cancer. -Extensive coverage of the philosophy of Alternative medicine is provided. -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternativmedizin Alternativmedizin (Alternative medicine) ---Alternative medicine articles are *not* characterized by edit wars. -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_alternativmedizinischer_Behandlungsmethoden Liste alternativmedizinischer Behandlungsmethoden (List of alternative medical mechanisms of action) ---including at least 13 articles on specific branches of alternative medicine -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krankheitsmodell Krankheitsmodell (Disease model) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulmedizin Schulmedizin (School of medicine) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontanheilung Spontanheilung (Spontaneous healing) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bewegungsmangel Bewegungsmangel (Lack of exercise) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbsthilfegruppe Selbsthilfegruppe (Support groups) -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilpraktiker Heilpraktiker (Welfare practical man) -- John Gohde, Feeling Great and Better than Ever! Alternative medicine was yesterday's quackery, is today's complementary medicine, and will be tomorrow's new branch of medicine. http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/glossary.html
John 'the Man' - 12 Mar 2004 14:14 GMT Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>> Ha, ... Hah, Ha! > >Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of >credibility, mon sewer... ;^] Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:
Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation of Health._ (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995) http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923 -- John Gohde, Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science! Get started on improving your personal health and fitness, today. http://www.Tutorials.NaturalHealthPerspective.com/ Offering easy to understand lessons that will change your life.
markd@toad-net.com - 12 Mar 2004 18:53 GMT "Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:
Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation of Health._ (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995) http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923"
No, the book speaks of the poor application/abuse of medicine and science, it doesn't say abandone it and replace it with non-scientific practices such as homopathetic mumbo jumbo which you have advocated. There are many medicos and scientists who agree in general principle with the book review, but don't; nor does the author; that we abandone the approach.
John 'the Man' - 12 Mar 2004 20:40 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow markd@toad-net.com rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>"Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:
>Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation >of Health._ (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995) >http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923"
>No, the book speaks of the poor application/abuse of medicine and science, >it doesn't say abandone it and replace it with non-scientific practices >such as homopathetic mumbo jumbo which you have advocated. No! The book says many things.
>There are many >medicos and scientists who agree in general principle with the book >review, but don't; nor does the author; that we abandone the approach. Could be why I quoteed the BMJ hyperlink, above?
In his preface, Illich states that the biggest demand for this book of his comes from the bulk orders of medical schools. "The book is being read [by many medicos and scientists] as a demonstration of how you can eat your cake and have it too." :(
Illich was a multilingual prolific writer who focused on the major institutions of the industrialized world. He applied a "model of social assessment of technological progress" to one of these institutions in each of his books in order to expose their current state of counterproductivity. His most celebrated work is generally considered to be _Deschooling Society_, a critical discourse on education.
Looking at his mission, Illich considers "self-reliance, autonomy, and dignity for all, particularly the weaker" to be the highest good. Illich advocates that "individual freedom [is] realized in personal independence." He laments industrialized societies where ever-increasing production, consumption and profit are used to measure the quality of human life. In all of his books, Illich calls for people to rediscover the lost art of living. His universal theme is the "counterproductivity of overindustrialized civilization." To Illich, in order for man to live creatively, man must reassert his autonomy and take control of his environment. From his point of view, society created the institutions in order to serve the society. But, according to Illich, these institutions have all become counterproductive to their original intent because they now exist to benefit themselves rather than the betterment of society. Health care is merely one of many institutions that Illich has written about.
Health, argues Illich, is the capacity to cope with the human reality of death, pain, and sickness. Technology can help, but modern medicine has gone too far launching into a Godlike battle to eradicate death, pain, and sickness. In doing so, it turns people into consumers or objects, destroying their capacity for health.
The concept of medicalisation is attributed to Ivan Illich, who first wrote on the subject in 1976. He proposed that modern medicine had become detrimental to society, by amongst other things, 'launching ... an inhuman attempt to defeat death, pain and sickness'. By doing so, he argued, medicine had deprived individuals and societies of their ability to cope with sickness and death.
According to Illich, "iatrogenesis cannot be understood unless it is seen as the specifically medicial manifestation of /specific counterproductivitiy/." Illich sees three levels of iatrogenesis. Clinical iatrogenesis is the injury done to patients by ineffective, toxic, and unsafe treatments. Social iatrogenesis results from the medicalisation of life. Cultural iatrogenesis is the destruction of traditional ways of dealing with and making sense of death, pain, and sickness.
In short, my web site and weekly newsletter operationally implements Illich's call for man to "reassert his autonomy and take control of his environment."
The above is from a preliminary draft of a new web page on Ivan Illich. -- John Gohde, Feeling Great and Better than Ever!
Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies that builds and restores health by working with the natural recuperative powers of the human body. http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/definition.html
Kristofer D. Dale - 15 Mar 2004 04:31 GMT In sci.med.nutrition John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote:
> Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies > that builds and restores health by working with the natural > recuperative powers of the human body. > http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/definition.html All over the map, as per usual. Heed the wise words of Alfred Korzybski:
"The map is not the territory."
 Signature _o Kristofer Dale, _ \<,_ ragged individualist, _____( )/ ( )_____ statistic at large...
p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
John 'the Man' - 15 Mar 2004 15:00 GMT jheiskan@welho.com jwales@bomis.com TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>> Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies >> that builds and restores health by working with the natural [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >"The map is not the territory." Just remember that all these pearls are coming from a drinker of dirt.
Need, I say more?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt.
Just my opinion. But, I am *right* as usual!
Kristofer D. Dale - 21 Mar 2004 06:10 GMT In sci.med.nutrition John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote:
> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt. Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^]
 Signature _o Kristofer Dale, _ \<,_ ragged individualist, _____( )/ ( )_____ statistic at large...
p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
John 'the Man' - 21 Mar 2004 21:09 GMT Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer 'the Dirt Drinker' rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt. > >Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^] earth (ûrth) n. 1.a. The land surface of the world. b. The softer, friable part of land; soil, especially productive soil.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Tim Tyler - 22 Mar 2004 10:27 GMT John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote or quoted:
> Kristofer 'the Dirt Drinker' rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." > Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
> >> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt. > > > >Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^] > > earth (?rth) n. 1.a. The land surface of the world. b. The softer, > friable part of land; soil, especially productive soil. "Diatomaceous earth" is the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
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John 'the Man' - 22 Mar 2004 14:49 GMT Once upon a time, our fellow Tim Tyler rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>"Diatomaceous earth" is the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms. I do NOT eat, nor drink the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Kristofer D. Dale - 29 Mar 2004 00:58 GMT > I do NOT eat, nor drink the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms. Explains a lot, for me anyway...
For the viewers at home, "ditomaceous earth" is a bit of a misnomer, although "John" gets off on his irrelevant comparison of "earth" and "dirt". Not all "DE" is alike, either, and I want to make it clear to anyone interested that the form I have been using for the past five years is "amorphous", meaning that it is non-crystalline, and does not present a health threat from silicosis that some types of "DE" can. Although "John" would like to belittle this practice becuase he resents the fact that I have repeatedly and publically demonstrated what a thouroughly "chickenshit" character he essentially is at heart, the fact remains that igesting "dirt", not to be confused with "DE", usually in the form of clay, has been a common practice in traditional and alternative healing modalities for centuries (if not millennia) as well. So, now that we have dispensed with yet another one of "John"'s pet "theories" (AKA peeves), let us move on, shall we? ;^]
 Signature _o Kristofer Dale, _ \<,_ ragged individualist, _____( )/ ( )_____ statistic at large...
p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
John 'the Man' - 29 Mar 2004 05:00 GMT Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer Robin rambled on about "Re: Data Mining (Re: Enterosorbent)." Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>For the viewers at home, "ditomaceous earth" is a bit of a misnomer, >although "John" gets off on his irrelevant comparison of "earth" and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >present a health threat from silicosis that some types of "DE" can. >Although "John" would like to belittle this practice ... You simply are not getting it, are you?
I neither eat nor drink dirt, or anything remotely close to it!
How about Kitty Litter? Do you eat Kitty Litter, too, for its health benefits?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha! -- Mental illness happens to be real, live and well on these ngs.
Or, is it just a case of TOTALLY STUPID PEOPLE? http://www.cantrip.org/stupidity.html Are you in the bottom Quadrant of the IQ curve?
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