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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2004

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Enterosorbent

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George W. Cherry - 16 Feb 2004 02:44 GMT
Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan?

POLYPHEPAN is an efficient ecologically benign enterosorbent prepared from
the hydrolysis lignin. POLYPHEPAN is 5-10 times more potent in absorbability
than activated charcoal, it stimulates the intestinal function, possesses
antioxidative effect, increases the phagocytic activity of the
reticulo-endothelial system. The presence of functional groups allows
POLYPHEPAN to absorb and retain not only various types of microorganisms and
the products of their vital activity, including toxins, but also
cholesterol, bilirubin, lipids, bile acids, ureas, serotonin, histamin, and
the products of mast cells. POLYPHEPAN can adsorb radioactive elements,
heavy metal salts, nitrates and nitrites. POLYPHEPAN is non-toxic and
completely evacuated from the intestinal. It is indicated to prolong
treatment in the case when detoxication of the organism is needed. Besides,
POLYPHEPAN can successfully be used while therapeutic fasting. The product
can also be applied locally for the treatment of skin diseases and wounds.
John 'the Man' - 16 Feb 2004 04:08 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry
  rambled on about "Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan?

Has anyone ever heard of science-based quackery?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Jeff - 16 Feb 2004 19:20 GMT
> jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
> Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Science-based quackery? That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

All the best,

Jeff
John 'the Man' - 17 Feb 2004 04:01 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow Jeff
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>Science-based quackery? That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

Life-Extension is an example, Dim Wit!

Just thought that you might want to know. :)

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Tim Tyler - 16 Feb 2004 13:16 GMT
George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

> Has anyone here had experience with Polyphepan?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> treatment in the case when detoxication of the organism is needed. Besides,
> POLYPHEPAN can successfully be used while therapeutic fasting. [...]

- http://www.inchemistry.irk.ru:8080/medicine/medicinen.htm

I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does...
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George W. Cherry - 17 Feb 2004 06:26 GMT
> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does...

You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it
because I take it in gelatin capsules.

George W. Cherry
John 'the Man' - 17 Feb 2004 17:00 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does...
>
>You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it
>because I take it in gelatin capsules.

Healthy people do not need to take activated charcoal.

Just thought that you might want to know. :)

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Hua Kul - 19 Feb 2004 19:56 GMT
> jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
> Once upon a time, our fellow George W. Cherry
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

No one is entirely healthy.

Just thought you might want to know.  

--Hua Kul
John 'the Man' - 20 Feb 2004 02:19 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow Hua Kul
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>No one is entirely healthy.

"... you have my sympathies"
Science Officer Ash to Ripley, in the movie ALIEN.
Tim Tyler - 20 Feb 2004 19:35 GMT
George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

[POLYPHEPAN]

> >  - http://www.inchemistry.irk.ru:8080/medicine/medicinen.htm
> >
> > I wonder if it tastes any better than activated charcoal does...
>
> You've tasted it?! I've never tasted it
> because I take it in gelatin capsules.

Well - as you can probably imagine - it tastes like... charcoal.

Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay.
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George W. Cherry - 21 Feb 2004 06:56 GMT
> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay.

When I PubMed <enterosorbent AND betonite> I don't get
any abstracts. How much bentonite do you take and when
do you take it?

George W. Cherry
Tim Tyler - 21 Feb 2004 22:56 GMT
George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

> > Well - as you can probably imagine - it tastes like... charcoal.
> >
> > Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay.
>
> When I PubMed <enterosorbent AND betonite> I don't get
> any abstracts.

<charcoal AND bentonite> produces 27 studies, though.

> How much bentonite do you take and when do you take it?

As much as I can easily manage (not much since it tastes like clay...)
...and when I'm fasting.

Carbon is probably better - if it is pure.
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George W. Cherry - 22 Feb 2004 04:39 GMT
> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> As much as I can easily manage (not much since it tastes like clay...)
> ...and when I'm fasting.

Add some chocolate syrup. Oops, you're fasting.

> Carbon is probably better - if it is pure.

Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons
(aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful
when fasting. What are you sopping up?

George
Tim Tyler - 22 Feb 2004 14:33 GMT
George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

> Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons
> (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful
> when fasting. What are you sopping up?

Fasting /seems/ like the best time to take them - but I don't know
if that issue has been studied.

Eating enterosorbents with food may not be the best thing to do:

You put all the work into eating food - and then don't get so
much out of it - and the resulting nutrient profile may be
significantly distorted.

Perhaps a boon for those who want to do CR - and still eat cream
cakes, though - I suppose ;-)

Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its
share of fat-soluble toxins.  As well as helping these get excreted,
there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started
fasting to get rid of as well.
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George W. Cherry - 23 Feb 2004 05:54 GMT
> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Eating enterosorbents with food may not be the best thing to do:

Right, I take carefully selected and expensive supplements
which activated charcoal might absorb. I'm rather afraid
to take (or not take!) activated charcoal with food. I think
that from now on I'll take it only between meals.

> You put all the work into eating food - and then don't get so
> much out of it - and the resulting nutrient profile may be
> significantly distorted.
>
> Perhaps a boon for those who want to do CR - and still eat cream
> cakes, though - I suppose ;-)

It's certainly more elegant than "sham eating" (a practice
which seems to have dropped out of these annals).

> Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its
> share of fat-soluble toxins.  As well as helping these get excreted,
> there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started
> fasting to get rid of as well.

I think that I'll take my activated charcoal in the
middle of the night, when my bladder wakes me up.

George
Tim Tyler - 23 Feb 2004 10:56 GMT
George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
> > George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

> > > Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons
> > > (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to take (or not take!) activated charcoal with food. I think
> that from now on I'll take it only between meals.

If we assume it works as a sort of crypto-calorie restriction -
by stopping elements from the food from being absorbed at well -
then taking it far away from food might nullify any side effects -
but is likely to equally nullify any benefits.

I suspect this sort of explanation of its action is quite likely -
but I don't think we know for sure.

At some point there are elements ejected by the liver into the
intestines that are intended for excretion - and probably are
not a good idea to re-absorb - and bacterial flora can get
a bit out of hand sometimes - and absorbing their effluent
may not always be desirable.

*If* you could *selectively* block absorbsion at those points
then *that* might be a good idea - but I don't think charcoal
from the top is likely to pull this trick off.

Also, I worry about charcoal's purity and safety.  I don't usually
eat burned stuff - and even if it /is/ free of impurities, what
if I eat too much - and those highly-reactive carbon atoms stick
to *me* - and not to my food?

By contrast, clay seems less likely to make it out of my digestive tract.  
If it /does/ get stuck to bits of me, it seems more likely to
become unstuck again.

Safety information for carbon says:

``Harmful if ingested in quantity - IVN-MUS LD50 440 mg/kg''

- http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CA/carbon.html

That might be a fair sized figure - but ten times bigger would be
a little bit more reassuring.
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Moosh:) - 19 Mar 2004 15:36 GMT
>George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>there's probably still some junk in your guts from before you started
>fasting to get rid of as well.

So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream?
Tim Tyler - 22 Mar 2004 10:22 GMT
"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:

> >> Interesting that substances used to sop up poisons
> >> (aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream?

No - the gut.

The liver can move things from the blood stream into the gut -
via the bile duct - though.
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Moosh:) - 26 Mar 2004 08:22 GMT
>"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
>> >George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>The liver can move things from the blood stream into the gut -
>via the bile duct - though.

What sort of things?
Tim Tyler - 26 Mar 2004 11:37 GMT
"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:

> >> >Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains its
> >> >share of fat-soluble toxins.   As well as helping these get excreted,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> What sort of things?

E.g. bilirubin - and other waste products.

Some bilirubin breakdown products are reabsorbed and then eliminated
via the kidneys.  It might be that enterosorbents could prevent that
from happening.
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Moosh:) - 27 Mar 2004 08:23 GMT
>"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
>> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Some bilirubin breakdown products are reabsorbed and then eliminated
>via the kidneys.

Really? Are you sure of this?

> It might be that enterosorbents could prevent that
>from happening.

If it in fact does happen.

But bilirubin is not an "(exo)toxin". This is just a normal waste
product. I want to know what you were referring to when you said :

"Fasting causes you to burn off fat - and animal fat often contains
its share of fat-soluble toxins.   As well as helping these get
excreted, there's probably still some junk in your guts from before
you started fasting to get rid of as well."
Tim Tyler - 27 Mar 2004 14:13 GMT
"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:

> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:
> >> >"Moosh:)" <spam@less.ever> wrote or quoted:

[...]

> >> >> So these adsorbants can extract things from the bloodstream?
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Really? Are you sure of this?

Yes.

It is a common fate of many such compounds - e.g.:

``The liver is well known to metabolize and excrete into bile many
 compounds and toxins, thus eliminating them (usually) from the body.
 Examples can be found among both endogenous molecules (steroid
 hormones, calcium) and exogenous compounds (many antibiotics and
 metabolites of drugs). A substantial number of these compounds are
 reabsorbed in the small intestine and ultimately eliminated by the
 kidney.''

- http://biology.about.com/library/organs/bldigestliver4.htm

To name one of the bilirubin metabolites so excreted:

``After the excretion to the alimentary tract, the bilirubin is reduced to
 colorless urobilinogen by intestinal pathogens, followed by oxidation to
 colored urobilin (stercobilin) which is excreted out of the body by the
 alimentary tract. A part of urobilinogen is reabsorbed from the
 alimentary tract and excreted out of the body by the way of the kidney.
 Therefore, the detection of urinary bilirubin and urobilinogen is of
 important significance in the diagnosis of liver diseases.''

- http://health.seed.net.tw/chiaungo/profes/bilirubin.htm

> But bilirubin is not an "(exo)toxin". This is just a normal waste
> product. I want to know what you were referring to when you said :
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> excreted, there's probably still some junk in your guts from before
> you started fasting to get rid of as well."

As I said: fat-soluble toxins.

These include pesticides, fertilisers, heavy metals and petrochemical
products.
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Moosh:) - 19 Mar 2004 15:36 GMT
>> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or
>quoted:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>(aflatoxins, paraquat, and the like) may be useful
>when fasting. What are you sopping up?

Don't they sop up just about anything? Friend or foe?
George W. Cherry - 22 Feb 2004 04:48 GMT
> George W. Cherry <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote or quoted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> <charcoal AND bentonite> produces 27 studies, though.

<activated charcoal AND bentonite> produces 9 abstracts.
One of them mentions the reduction of acidosis during fasting.
Kristofer D. Dale - 24 Feb 2004 23:39 GMT
> Give me bentonite any day - at least that only tastes like clay.

I'll stick with my diatomaceous earth, it tastes like silica... ;^]

Signature

           _o                   Kristofer Dale,
        _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
  _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org

John 'the Man' - 25 Feb 2004 03:52 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>I'll stick with my diatomaceous earth, it tastes like silica... ;^]

Good to the last drop, I hear!

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

"... you have my sympathies"
Science Officer Ash to Ripley, in the movie ALIEN.
Kristofer D. Dale - 07 Mar 2004 19:10 GMT
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of
credibility, mon sewer... ;^]

Signature

           _o                   Kristofer Dale,
        _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
  _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org

John 'the Man' - 07 Mar 2004 20:53 GMT
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
>
>Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of
>credibility, mon sewer... ;^]

Shows your complete lack of knowledge of my activity and skills.  :)

2004 has been a good year for me.

-Started issuing a formal weekly newsletter on the latest prevention
and healthy lifestyles research.

-Data mining has been extremely successful for me. :)

* How the mind hurts and heals the body.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4736318&dopt=Abstract

Am Psychol. 2004 Jan; 59(1): 29-40.
PMID: 14736318

Full text of the article is available at:
http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/press_releases/january_2004/amp59129.pdf.

This is a FREE full text review of the last 100 years of scientific
research on the psychosocial factors of health that was published in a
peer-reviewed online journal of the APA.

* John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur
Research Network on Socioeconomic Status and Health
http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/overview.htm

Notice that is this is an educational domain!!!!  

For those with a brain who can recognize the significance of what they
are looking out this URL is the top node of a treasure trove of
information on published research that is *directly* applicable to the
psychosocial reporting objectives of both my web site and weekly
newsletter.

*Hauptseite
aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite
**The German edition of Wikipedia is a treasure trove of information
on the philosophy of alternative medicine.

*And, today, I just solved the mysteries of the Low-Carb / Aktins
Diet.  Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Yes, 2004 will be the year that I will accomplish my dream of turning
my web site into a treasure trove of scientific information on the
psychological factors that affect health.
--
John Gohde,
    Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!

Health-with-Attitude is a weekly newsletter for people
trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/
John 'the Man' - 11 Mar 2004 12:32 GMT
>*Hauptseite
>aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite
>**The German edition of Wikipedia is a treasure trove of information
>on the philosophy of alternative medicine.

Just in case that you do not know.  The Google toolbar for your web
browser offers transparent translation of the German, as well as
French and Spanish languages.

February 2004 statistics: 54,000 articles
--As the next biggest edition, the German edition is only one quarter
the size of the English version.
--Makes the significance of the following findings even more
significant.
-Coverage of the
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltgesundheitsorganisation
Weltgesundheitsorganisation (World Health Organization) ,
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundheit Gesundheit (Health) , and
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophylaxe Prophylaxe (Prophylaxis)
articles.
-Informative rather than obscuring
--The significance of the information is clearly pointed out.
--Friendly and inviting tone to health and medical articles.
-Offers full coverage of preventive medicine and comments on
alternative treatment methods can be found in the articles on
conventional medicine.

--
http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risikomedizin
Risikomedizin (Risk medicine)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risikofaktor
Risikofaktor (Modifiable Risk Factors)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorsorgeprogramm Vorsorgeprogramm
(Screening program)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorsorgeuntersuchung Früherkennung von
Krankheiten (Early recognition of diseases)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene Hygiene
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkologie Onkologie (the science of
cancer).
---Offers comments on alternative treatment methods of treating
cancer.
-Extensive coverage of the philosophy of Alternative medicine is
provided.
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternativmedizin Alternativmedizin
(Alternative medicine)
---Alternative medicine articles are *not* characterized by edit wars.
--
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_alternativmedizinischer_Behandlungsmethoden
Liste alternativmedizinischer Behandlungsmethoden (List of alternative
medical mechanisms of action)
---including at least 13 articles on specific branches of alternative
medicine
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krankheitsmodell Krankheitsmodell
(Disease model)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulmedizin Schulmedizin (School of
medicine)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontanheilung Spontanheilung
(Spontaneous healing)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bewegungsmangel Bewegungsmangel (Lack
of exercise)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbsthilfegruppe Selbsthilfegruppe
(Support groups)
-- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilpraktiker Heilpraktiker (Welfare
practical man)
--
John Gohde,
  Feeling Great and Better than Ever!
   
Alternative medicine was yesterday's quackery, is today's
complementary medicine, and will be tomorrow's new branch of medicine.
http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/glossary.html
John 'the Man' - 12 Mar 2004 14:14 GMT
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale
  rambled on about "Re: Enterosorbent."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
>
>Your stock cachinnation does nothing to alleviate your complete lack of
>credibility, mon sewer... ;^]

Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:

Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation
of Health._  (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923
--
John Gohde,
    Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
   
Get started on improving your personal health and fitness, today.
http://www.Tutorials.NaturalHealthPerspective.com/
Offering easy to understand lessons that will change your life.
markd@toad-net.com - 12 Mar 2004 18:53 GMT
"Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:

Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation
of Health._  (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923"

No, the book speaks of the poor application/abuse of medicine and science,
it doesn't say abandone it and replace it with non-scientific practices
such as homopathetic mumbo jumbo which you have advocated.  There are many
medicos and scientists who agree in general principle with the book
review, but don't; nor does the author; that we abandone the approach.
John 'the Man' - 12 Mar 2004 20:40 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow markd@toad-net.com
  rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>"Obviously you are an illiterate, ignorant, Geek who has never read:

>Ivan Illich's _Limits to Medicine: Medical Nemesis, the Expropriation
>of Health._  (1st edition 1976, second edition 1995)
>http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/923"

>No, the book speaks of the poor application/abuse of medicine and science,
>it doesn't say abandone it and replace it with non-scientific practices
>such as homopathetic mumbo jumbo which you have advocated.  

No!  The book says many things.

>There are many
>medicos and scientists who agree in general principle with the book
>review, but don't; nor does the author; that we abandone the approach.

Could be why I quoteed the BMJ hyperlink, above?

In his preface, Illich states that the biggest demand for this book of
his comes from the bulk orders of medical schools. "The book is being
read [by many medicos and scientists] as a demonstration of how you
can eat your cake and have it too."  :(

Illich was a multilingual prolific writer who focused on the major
institutions of the industrialized world. He applied a "model of
social assessment of technological progress" to one of these
institutions in each of his books in order to expose their current
state of counterproductivity. His most celebrated work is generally
considered to be _Deschooling Society_, a critical discourse on
education.

Looking at his mission, Illich considers "self-reliance, autonomy, and
dignity for all, particularly the weaker" to be the highest good.
Illich advocates that "individual freedom [is] realized in personal
independence." He laments industrialized societies where
ever-increasing production, consumption and profit are used to measure
the quality of human life.  In all of his books, Illich calls for
people to rediscover the lost art of living. His universal theme is
the "counterproductivity of overindustrialized civilization." To
Illich, in order for man to live creatively, man must reassert his
autonomy and take control of his environment. From his point of view,
society created the institutions in order to serve the society.  But,
according to Illich, these institutions have all become
counterproductive to their original intent because they now exist to
benefit themselves rather than the betterment of society.  Health care
is merely one of many institutions that Illich has written about.

Health, argues Illich, is the capacity to cope with the human reality
of death, pain, and sickness.  Technology can help, but modern
medicine has gone too far launching into a Godlike battle to eradicate
death, pain, and sickness. In doing so, it turns people into consumers
or objects, destroying their capacity for health.

The concept of medicalisation is attributed to Ivan Illich, who first
wrote on the subject in 1976. He proposed that modern medicine had
become detrimental to society, by amongst other things, 'launching ...
an inhuman attempt to defeat death, pain and sickness'. By doing so,
he argued, medicine had deprived individuals and societies of their
ability to cope with sickness and death.

According to Illich, "iatrogenesis cannot be understood unless it is
seen as the specifically medicial manifestation of /specific
counterproductivitiy/."  Illich sees three levels of iatrogenesis.
Clinical iatrogenesis is the injury done to patients by ineffective,
toxic, and unsafe treatments. Social iatrogenesis results from the
medicalisation of life.  Cultural iatrogenesis is the destruction of
traditional ways of dealing with and making sense of death, pain, and
sickness.

In short, my web site and weekly newsletter operationally implements
Illich's call for man to "reassert his autonomy and take control of
his environment."

The above is from a preliminary draft of a new web page on Ivan
Illich.
--
John Gohde,
  Feeling Great and Better than Ever!

Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies
that builds and restores health by working with the natural
recuperative powers of the human body.
http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/definition.html
Kristofer D. Dale - 15 Mar 2004 04:31 GMT
In sci.med.nutrition John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote:

> Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies
> that builds and restores health by working with the natural
> recuperative powers of the human body.
> http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/definition.html

All over the map, as per usual. Heed the wise words of Alfred Korzybski:

"The map is not the territory."

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           _o                   Kristofer Dale,
        _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
  _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org

John 'the Man' - 15 Mar 2004 15:00 GMT
jheiskan@welho.com  jwales@bomis.com  TKNOTT@qcl.org.uk
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer D. Dale
  rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> Natural health is an eclectic self-care system of natural therapies
>> that builds and restores health by working with the natural
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>"The map is not the territory."

Just remember that all these pearls are coming from a drinker of dirt.

Need, I say more?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt.

Just my opinion.  But, I am *right* as usual!
Kristofer D. Dale - 21 Mar 2004 06:10 GMT
In sci.med.nutrition John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote:

> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt.

Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^]

Signature

           _o                   Kristofer Dale,
        _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
  _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org

John 'the Man' - 21 Mar 2004 21:09 GMT
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer 'the Dirt Drinker'
  rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt.
>
>Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^]

earth (ûrth) n. 1.a. The land surface of the world. b. The softer,
friable part of land; soil, especially productive soil.

Just thought that you might want to know. :)

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Tim Tyler - 22 Mar 2004 10:27 GMT
John 'the Man' <DeMan@fdatamining.com> wrote or quoted:
> Kristofer 'the Dirt Drinker' rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
> Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

> >> Good health comes from eating real food, not from drinking dirt.
> >
> >Heh, DE (diatomaceous earth) is to dirt what Ghandi is to "JOHN"... ;^]
>
> earth (?rth) n. 1.a. The land surface of the world. b. The softer,
> friable part of land; soil, especially productive soil.

"Diatomaceous earth" is the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.

Just thought that you might want to know. :)
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John 'the Man' - 22 Mar 2004 14:49 GMT
Once upon a time, our fellow Tim Tyler
  rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>"Diatomaceous earth" is the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.

I do NOT eat, nor drink the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.

Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Kristofer D. Dale - 29 Mar 2004 00:58 GMT
> I do NOT eat, nor drink the fossilized shells of minuscule organisms.

Explains a lot, for me anyway...

For the viewers at home, "ditomaceous earth" is a bit of a misnomer,
although "John" gets off on his irrelevant comparison of "earth" and
"dirt". Not all "DE" is alike, either, and I want to make it clear to
anyone interested that the form I have been using for the past five
years is "amorphous", meaning that it is non-crystalline, and does not
present a health threat from silicosis that some types of "DE" can.  
Although "John" would like to belittle this practice becuase he resents
the fact that I have repeatedly and publically demonstrated what a
thouroughly "chickenshit" character he essentially is at heart, the fact
remains that igesting "dirt", not to be confused with "DE", usually in
the form of clay, has been a common practice in traditional and
alternative healing modalities for centuries (if not millennia) as well.
So, now that we have dispensed with yet another one of "John"'s pet
"theories" (AKA peeves), let us move on, shall we?    ;^]

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           _o                   Kristofer Dale,
        _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
  _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org

John 'the Man' - 29 Mar 2004 05:00 GMT
Once upon a time, our fellow Kristofer Robin
  rambled on about "Re: Data Mining  (Re: Enterosorbent)."
Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>For the viewers at home, "ditomaceous earth" is a bit of a misnomer,
>although "John" gets off on his irrelevant comparison of "earth" and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>present a health threat from silicosis that some types of "DE" can.  
>Although "John" would like to belittle this practice ...

You simply are not getting it, are you?

I neither eat nor drink dirt, or anything remotely close to it!  

How about Kitty Litter?  Do you eat Kitty Litter, too, for its health
benefits?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
--
Mental illness happens to be real, live and well on these ngs.

Or, is it just a case of TOTALLY STUPID PEOPLE?
http://www.cantrip.org/stupidity.html
Are you in the bottom Quadrant of the IQ curve?
 
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