On Jun 15, 8:50 am, j...@wondring.com wrote:

Many alternative remedies and treatments are based on long term
cultural trial and error and observations of efficacy and side
effects. It may not meet modern peer review "standards" but even the
peer review system is ridiculously rife with flaws. My conclusion is
that alternative treatments are probably no better or no worse and no
more dangerous or no more safe than anything sold with the FDA's seal
of approval. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

"Many alternative remedies and treatments are based on long term
cultural trial and error and observations of efficacy and side
effects. It may not meet modern peer review "standards" but even the
peer review system is ridiculously rife with flaws. My conclusion is
that alternative treatments are probably no better or no worse and no
more dangerous or no more safe than anything sold with the FDA's seal
of approval. Six of one, half a dozen of the other."

The same high level of logic, tap dancing over the facts, and hand
waving as final proof we have come to expect.

"My conclusion",aka my opinion without support, is not where science
ends.  All of the assertions above are open to scientific varification
so we don't need to accept coin tosses alone as best evidence.

Someone wrote:

"In response to the below. A couple of things come to mind. First is the
purpose of the group as seen in the title, where science and nutrition
are core ideas."

~< snip>~

  My response: sci.med.nutrition. That is the forum. The point is
nutrition, drugs, alternative medicine, all of these things have a
common thread. Poor nutrition is a root cause of disease, which in turn
directs the discussion towards drugs and alternatives. Where proper
nutrition countermeasures the root cause and should be the thrust of any
arguements in this forum, one can not but bring up how processed and
refined foods are not only unhealthy, but the unholy alliance between
fast food giants and big pharma.

~<snip>~

"While there is a wide range of discussion here, the alternative drug
newsgroup better fits your goals.
Too often the claims of the alternative drug folk lacks even minimal
science rigor and become nothing more then private opinion not based in
science."

~<snip>~

My response: I disagree, diet treatments are a hot topic in this forum.
And the diet industry is linked to the big food and big pharma
industries. The problem with studies pertaining to alternatives is it is
illegal, per the arbitrary law of the FDA, to claim anything other than
a big pharma drug, can cure anything. Whether the studies can prove it
or not. There is conflct of interest with the FDA. They recieve
kickbacks to approve drugs that are hazardous to ones health. Studies
are conducted by companies with agandas. The FDA is in place to insure
the monopolism of big pharma over American health and diet.

~<snip>~

"The response you mention is to reflect this sad truth and the
additional truth that safety and marketing practices are of great
concern. The science claims and the safety and the marketing come under
a poorly emplimented area of oversight which does not allow an informed
consumer to make decisions even at the level of aspirin.
Why should the truth claims of the alternative drug industry be excluded
from science and safety and valid marketing practices?"

~<snip>~

My response: Alternative medicine is under scrutiny, far more than big
pharma is. The science and clinical studies (clinical studies are a form
of proof, if say 20000 people use an alternative treatment and only 2
people did not respond to the treatment or had an adverse effect from
the treatment...in my peanut brain, I would say the odds are good that
the treatment is effective). Alot of the alternatives we speak of are
also considered mainstream in Europe or Mexico. The science behind B17
for cancer or hCG for obesity were driven out of America by the FDA.
These are inexpensive and effective "cures". But it has been made
illegal to make claims in the USA and extremely expensive to test
(license). There is no profit motive to prove them effective and no
patent to be made on natural substances.

~<snip>~

Why not introduce astrology and tea leaf reading into the mix? Why not
healing crystals and majical talismans to ward off illness and promote
good nutrition, by applying the same criteria you suggest?"

~<snip>~

My response: With the exception of Q-ray, I agree. Electromagnetic
forces do affect the body. Check out Royal Rife and the Multiwave
oscillator. It is science not mumbo-jumbo. We can't overlook the placebo
effect either, it has been proven cliically, but the why it exists is
still in question.

~<snip>~

"I have been watching this forum for quite some time and am amazed how
the large minority of postings knock the whole idea of alternative
health and in fact seem to purposely attempt to change the topic towards
anything but the supposed purpose of this site . "

~<snip>~

My response: I agree, to a point. Like I said above nutritional
difficiency is a root cause of disease, and I argue to that effect. When
someone introduces bogus diet plans or suggests one use the microwave to
cook, I have to argue towards the adverse effects of these things. I
agree as well, one sentense responses to serious postings is nothng more
than clutter. Personal attacks, etc...it is the nature of forums I
suppose.

~<snip>~

"As someone who is genuinely interested in alternatives to accepted
Medical practices, especialy herbal or naturaly occurring products, (
keep in mind many accepted pharmaceutical products originated from plant
matter) I am still waiting to see postings from people who do not have a
barrow to push or, whose agenda is to negate the entire concept of
alternative health.
Many people have benefitted from natural or alternative remedies, and it
would be nice to allow them to voice their experinces, without fear of
ridicule."

~<snip>~

My response: I am glad to hear of another open mind on this forum
pertaining to alternatives. Hebals have thier place. I must point
out,even though many drugs are derrived from plant matter, they are
processed with hydrocarbons (petroleum based products) and processed and
refied to such a degree that the compounds that are created may be
considered poisonous. I know, I used to be a chemical operator in a
pharmaceutical company. Modern drugs are for symptomatic treatment only,
they cure nothing. Lifelong prescriptions are prescribed. They are
unnatural products introduced to the body and cause the body to react
unnaturally. Toxic overload is another root cause of disease. Drugs are
not designed to countermeure root cause, only cover symptoms. Drugs make
toxic overload worse.

~<snip>~

"I' m expecting the usual responses , but I'm hoping for more?"
    "Reply Reply to author Forward"

~<snip>~

My response: I hope this was an "unusual" response and look forward to
more dialogue with you. Also remember, Quackwatch trolls these kinds of
forums and detract from serious discussion. I have researched many
things and can back up anything I post with science, and can produce
evidence and references. I do so only when atacked though and only to
responses with more than one sentence.

As a postscript: I recommend any Kevin Trudeau book, I know many posts I
have made mentioning his name are violently attacked, but I don't care.
He opened my eyes to root cause and what big pharma is all about.