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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 20042400 kcal high-carb diet equals weight loss
I like this part of the article: "The whole idea that you could lose weight without reducing energy intake flies in the face of 100 years of data". -------------- ?????? ???????? KORNET ------------- > I like this part of the article: "The whole idea that you could lose weight without reducing energy intake flies in the face of 100 years of data". > > -------------- ?????? ???????? KORNET ------------- Also: "Foods on the successful diets included high-fiber cereal, vegetarian chili, whole-wheat spaghetti, many fruits and vegetables, and skim milk. Daily calories totaled about 2,400, similar to participants' usual consumption. The control group also received prepared meals with similar calories, but the foods included sausage, scrambled eggs, macaroni and cheese, French fries, whole milk and fewer fruits and vegetables." The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging a study. The test group ate whole-wheat spaghetti and high fiber cereal. The control group ate macaroni and french fries. Mixing up the carbs to give false findings. TC > The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other > high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > TC TC, you have been insisting for as long as I have been reading this ng that a carb is a carb is a carb. What happened?  Signaturejmk in NC > > The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other > > high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > TC, you have been insisting for as long as I have been reading this ng > that a carb is a carb is a carb. What happened? Wrong. Do not put words in my mouth. I have always diferentiated between junk carbs and good carbs. The only way to get too many carbs in the diet in general is by consuming junk carbs. A diet with only whole-food carbs, minus starchy tubers and highly genetically modified carbs (like super-sweet corn), makes it virtually impossible to consume too many carbs. In other words, restrict junk carbs. TC >>>The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other >>>high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > genetically modified carbs (like super-sweet corn), makes it virtually > impossible to consume too many carbs. OK, this is interesting. Could you please classify the following items into good or junk? Kashi Good Friends cereal (http://www.kashi.com/goodfriends.html) Milk (skim) Grapefruit Orange Apple Banana Blueberry Carrot (baby) Wasa crispbread (http://us.wasa.com/products/product.jsp?prod=sourdoughrye) Plain yogurt (http://www.stonyfield.com/nutritionlabels/Label.cfm?LabelID=12) Signaturejmk in NC >>>> The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other >>>> high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Plain yogurt > (http://www.stonyfield.com/nutritionlabels/Label.cfm?LabelID=12) TC, I would seriously like your thoughts on these foods. You say that foods are either good carbs or junk carbs, is that right? In your opinion, which category do the above foods fall into? Signaturejmk in NC <snip> > > OK, this is interesting. Could you please classify the following items > > into good or junk? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > foods are either good carbs or junk carbs, is that right? In your > opinion, which category do the above foods fall into? My opinion? This is just my opinion. **************** Kashi Good Friends cereal Nutrition Facts Serving Size 30g = approx. 3/4 cup Serving Per Container:12 Calories: 90 Calories From Fat: 10 *Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2,000 calorie diet. Amount/Serving %DV* Amount/Serving %DV* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total Fat 1g* 2% Total Carb 24g 8% Saturated Fat 0g 0% Dietary Fiber 8g 32% Cholesterol 0mg 0% Sugars 6g Sodium 70mg 3% Protein 3g -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vitamin A 0% Vitamin C 0% Calcium 0% Iron 2% Fairly high in carbs. Few vitamins. Eat sparingly if at all. Little or no nutritional value. * Skim milk. Fine. Milk can be a problem for digestion but if you can tolerate it, go ahead. Neither here nor there. Note that the countries with the highest consumption of dairy have the highest incidence of osteoporosis. * Grapefruit. Fine. Its a whole carb. * Orange. Fine. * Apple. Fine. Kinda empty of much nutrition, though. * Banana. high GI. I wouldn't make a meal of nothing but bananas. But I'll have one once in a while. * Blueberry. I love 'em. Watch them pies though, lots of added sugar. * Carrot (baby). Not bad. I prefer the big carrots, eat them regularly. Baby carrots contain a bit more sugars. * Wasa crispbread (http://us.wasa.com/products/product.jsp?prod=sourdoughrye) 9 grams of carbs per slice. Little in vitamins. Eat sparingly. Rye bread has a lower Glycemic load than wheat. If I eat bread, I eat pretty much only rye bread and rarely more than one slice in a meal. * Plain yogurt, OK. Watch the yogurts with the added sugars. More importantly is in the context that you eat these foods. A typical meal should contain from 2 to 4 oz. of protein - fish, chicken, pork, beef, etc. Along with this goes a good serving of veggies such as broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, peas, etc. All the green salad you want with lots of good fats like olive oil (home made vinaigrettes are great, no added sugars). Carbs to avoid: -soda and other sugar or sugar added drinks, completely lacking in nutritional value, also sweetened juices, especially those targetted towards kids like Sunny Dee orange/sugar syrup -potatoes (eat in smaller portions) -refined white nutritionally bereft wheat flour- spaghetti, pizza crust, bread, cake, donuts, cookies, etc. Oh yeah, drink enough H2O and get regular exercise. Does this not sound like a reasonable diet? This is what low-carbing is about. TC > Carbs to avoid: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -refined white nutritionally bereft wheat flour- spaghetti, pizza > crust, bread, cake, donuts, cookies, etc. What are your thoughts on whole wheat pastas, sweet potatoes and squashes (acorn, butternut, spaghetti)? Signaturejmk in NC > > Carbs to avoid: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What are your thoughts on whole wheat pastas, Better than refined white wheat pasta but still fairly high glycemic load. Eat small portions if at all. > sweet potatoes and I don't eat these so I've never checked the carb content. My guess is that one ought to keep the portions small if you eat them at all. I would treat them like regular potatoes. > squashes (acorn, butternut, spaghetti)? Again, I don't know the carb content off the top of my head, but being a whole food veggy, I'd say go for it. Sounds good to me, nutritionally anyways, I was never a fan of the taste of squashes. TC >>sweet potatoes and > > I don't eat these so I've never checked the carb content. My guess is > that one ought to keep the portions small if you eat them at all. I > would treat them like regular potatoes. Actually, I don't even think that they are in the same family as the white potato -- like russets, yukon gold. Ah, they are in the morning glory family. Signaturejmk in NC > >>sweet potatoes and > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > white potato -- like russets, yukon gold. Ah, they are in the morning > glory family. Sweet potato, baked w/skin (large) 44g carbs Potatoes, baked, flesh and skin, without salt, 1 potato, 42.72 grams carbs TC >>>>sweet potatoes and >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Potatoes, baked, flesh and skin, without salt, 1 potato, 42.72 grams carbs So for you it's all about the number of carbohydrate grams and not the other nutrients the food may possess? Signaturejmk in NC > >>>>sweet potatoes and > >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > So for you it's all about the number of carbohydrate grams and not the > other nutrients the food may possess? Not all. Primarily it is about overall minimizing grams of carbs. That means not eating a lot of the higher carb, higher starch, higher Glycemic load foods. And especially not eating the junk refined grain and refined sugar carbs. That still leaves plenty of good nutrient dense low carb fruits and vegetables to choose from. And I mean plenty. I'm eating way more salads, fruits and veggies on low carb than I did before. And I love eating this way. I've lost 20 lbs and I've kept it off for 4 years. The wife has lost 35 lbs and kept it off. We feel great. Blood lipids are bang on. We are never hungry. TC >>>>>>sweet potatoes and >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Glycemic load foods. And especially not eating the junk refined grain > and refined sugar carbs. OK, I was confused. I mean, clearly a sweet potato does not have the same nutritional value as a white potato. They are completely different. All you said was that they have too many carbs. You seemd to completely discounted the nutrional value contained in foods themselves. You are simply saying get your get your potassion, beta carotene, thiamin, etc. elsewhere? Signaturejmk in NC > >>>>>>sweet potatoes and > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > themselves. You are simply saying get your get your potassion, beta > carotene, thiamin, etc. elsewhere? Pretty much. And I also don't subscribe to completely cutting all potatoes from the diet. Just make the portions smaller. TC >I don't eat these so I've never checked the carb content. My guess is >that one ought to keep the portions small if you eat them at all. I >would treat them like regular potatoes. Boil it max 6-7 minutes. If boiled for longer time, GI increases dramatically. Important for diabetics who want to eat pasta. > > The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other > > high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > TC, you have been insisting for as long as I have been reading this ng > that a carb is a carb is a carb. What happened? I've always stressed that we eat too many carbs. The villain has always been the high-carb-dense refined carbs like sugar and refined white flour. Without these carb dense refined foods it would actually be difficult to eat enough carbs to make much difference. Try to get 100 grams of carbs from a salad, you'll be full way before you even approach 100 grams, yet many small young kids daily and routinely walk out of convenience stores carrying at least that many carbs in a large jug in one hand. TC >>>The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other >>>high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. Talk about fudging [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > white flour. Without these carb dense refined foods it would actually > be difficult to eat enough carbs to make much difference. I'm not sure that is the case. I get most of my carbs from fruits and dairy (milk and yogurt). I don't have a problem with moderate to low carb diets at all, I just don't think that's the WOE for me at the moment, you know? I also eat a lot of whole grains on some days but most days it's the fruits that make up most of the carbohydrates in my diet. Signaturejmk in NC > > I've always stressed that we eat too many carbs. The villain has > > always been the high-carb-dense refined carbs like sugar and refined [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > most days it's the fruits that make up most of the carbohydrates in my > diet. Then you might be on LC WOE without knowing it :) It could be hard to eat significantly above 100g of carbs a day on diet you are suggesting... 100g of carbs is about 2 lb of plain yogurt or 8 oranges etc... Of course, any grains or sugar sweetened yougurt will take you over rather easily. Mirek >>>I've always stressed that we eat too many carbs. The villain has >>>always been the high-carb-dense refined carbs like sugar and refined [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Of course, any grains or sugar sweetened yougurt will take you over > rather easily. Hmm, I tend to be on a "whole food" diet -- whole fruit, veggies and some whole grains as well. I do fine on added sugars, I think, but my total carb count is well over 100 g per day. I'm not really trying to be on a low-carb diet. Signaturejmk in NC > >>>I've always stressed that we eat too many carbs. The villain has > >>>always been the high-carb-dense refined carbs like sugar and refined [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > total carb count is well over 100 g per day. I'm not really trying to > be on a low-carb diet. Following the Zone Diet a full grown typical male will eat a max of around 110 grams of carbs per day. Eating whole foods it is easy to do. Eating donuts, pasta, sugar loaded crap, soda, potatoes, fries, etc, it is virtually impossible. The other factor is glycemic index. The faster the absorption of the carb the higher the insulin spike and the more the body wants to store everything and anything as fat. Guess which carbs have a high glycemic load..... refined sugars, grains and some starchy veggies such as potatoes. Hence the term *junk carbs*. TC > Hmm, I tend to be on a "whole food" diet -- whole fruit, veggies and > some whole grains as well. I do fine on added sugars, I think, but my > total carb count is well over 100 g per day. Have counted ? :) > I'm not really trying to be on a low-carb diet. Does not matter. From my perspective, your diet is pretty close to what LC should be. Remove grains, add some protein and you will get what I believe my maintainance phase should look like. Mirek >>Hmm, I tend to be on a "whole food" diet -- whole fruit, veggies and >>some whole grains as well. I do fine on added sugars, I think, but my >>total carb count is well over 100 g per day. > > Have counted ? :) Yes, typically in the 200-250 range >> I'm not really trying to be on a low-carb diet. > > Does not matter. From my perspective, your diet is pretty close to > what LC should be. Remove grains, add some protein and you will get what > I believe my maintainance phase should look like. Why should I remove whole grains? Signaturejmk in NC > > Does not matter. From my perspective, your diet is pretty close to > > what LC should be. Remove grains, add some protein and you will get what > > I believe my maintainance phase should look like. > > Why should I remove whole grains? Sorry for my bad English, I just wanted to say that your diet minus whole grains plus protein equals my diet :) I was not suggesting any changes to yours... It seems pretty healthy to me anyway. Mirek >>> Does not matter. From my perspective, your diet is pretty close > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I was not suggesting any changes to yours... It seems pretty healthy to > me anyway. Thanks and sorry for my misunderstanding... Signaturejmk in NC >> I like this part of the article: "The whole idea that you could lose weight without reducing energy intake flies in the face of 100 years of data". >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >The "high carb" diet seems to have less refined grains and other >high-GI foods than the supposedly "low carb" diet. SEEMED? Haved you actually looked up the GIs of these foods? >Talk about fudging >a study. Like most of the studies that aren't measured properly. >The test group ate whole-wheat spaghetti and high fiber >cereal. Which can be quite high GI. Like the fresh fruit they ate. >The control group ate macaroni and french fries. Which can be quite low GI >Mixing up the >carbs to give false findings. What mixing are you complaining about? Try looking up the GIs of the different diets and then come back with an informed comment. Moosh:) > >> I like this part of the article: "The whole idea that you could lose weight without reducing energy intake flies in the face of 100 years of data". > >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Moosh:) I think you have croosed the line into the troll category. You are making noise just to make noise. Your arguments are no longer based on any facts, just nonsense. Until you come up with some real science to prove your points, you might as well just be quiet. TC The study that we are talking about is not that interesting. They effectively excluded a major macronutrient, put subjects on researcher-cooked meals, which restricted their junk food eating and the meals probably were quite bland. No wonder these people lost weight, they simply ate less. "low carb" is not that different. It excludes a major macronutrient, ban most junk food, people eat less, and voila they lose weight. i |
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