Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / April 2007
The Shady History Of Standard Process Laboratories
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Mark Thorson - 15 Apr 2007 20:49 GMT Read about it here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lee.html
GMCarter - 16 Apr 2007 11:25 GMT >Read about it here: Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious organization's website?
They're completely unreliable.
George M. Carter
keystone@mark.com - 16 Apr 2007 14:11 GMT "Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious organization's website?
They're completely unreliable."
How so? Which part of the article, with the many references, shows discredit?
Tunderbar - 16 Apr 2007 15:24 GMT On Apr 16, 8:11 am, keyst...@mark.com wrote:
> "Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious > organization's website? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How so? Which part of the article, with the many references, shows > discredit? Quackwatch has a long history of shady dealings. Pretty sad state of affairs that those who appoint themselves as protectors of the truth are those whose truthfulness is the most questionable.
TC
GMCarter - 17 Apr 2007 10:53 GMT >"Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious >organization's website? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >How so? Which part of the article, with the many references, shows >discredit? LOL..that presumes I'd waste my time reading any more of the crap on quackwatch than I already have. I spent too much of my life looking at their hysterical screeching and ranting.
They are as vile and worthless to me as either the multi-level marketing scammer pushing noni at some overpriced rate or the vile stinking pigs of pharma trying to shove drugs down people's throats who don't need them at an even more obscene price.
George M. Carter
Mark Thorson - 17 Apr 2007 20:37 GMT > LOL..that presumes I'd waste my time reading any more of the crap on > quackwatch than I already have. I spent too much of my life looking at > their hysterical screeching and ranting. Is any of it "hysterical screeching and ranting"? Let's look at the first four paragraphs of the article.
Quoting from: http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lee.html
Royal S. Lee (1895-1967), a nonpracticing dentist, founded and operated the Vitamin Products Company, which sold food supplements, and the Lee Foundation for Nutritional Research, which distributed literature on nutrition and health. The company, still family owned and operated, is now called Standard Process, Inc. and located in Palmyra, Wisconsin. Dun and Bradstreet's Million Dollar Directory (2007 edition), estimates the company's income to be $9.9 million, but Standard & Poor's directory estimates $17 million.
The biographical sketch on the Standard Process Web site describes Lee as a prolific inventor who registered more than 70 patents on equipment, processes, internal combustion engines, and food products [1]. He founded Standard Process in 1929 and his foundation in 1941.
Lee's first product was Catalyn, a patent medicine composed of milk sugar, wheat starch, wheat bran, and other plant material. During the early 1930s, a shipment of Catalyn was seized by the FDA and destroyed by court order because it had been marketed with false claims of effectiveness against goiter, hardening of the arteries, heart trouble, high blood pressure, insomnia, prostate trouble, and other serious ailments.
In 1945, the FTC ordered Lee and the Vitamin Products Company to discontinue illegal claims for Catalyn and other products. In 1956, the Post Office Department charged Lee's foundation with fraudulent promotion of a book called Diet Prevents Polio. The foundation agreed to discontinue the challenged claims.
Does that sound like "hysterical screeching and ranting"? And what about the references? Does this article cite its sources of information? Here's the bibliography for that article:
1. Our founder—The life of Dr. Lee. Standard Process Web site, accessed April 20, 2006. 2. Barrett S. The shady activities of Kurt Donsbach. Quackwatch, Feb 13, 2006. 3. FDA Notices of Judgment under the food Drug, and Cosmetic Act, 1962, pp 138-140. 4. Smith RL. The amazing facts about a "crusade" that can hurt your health. Today's Health, Oct 1966, pp 31-36. 5. Milstead KL. Quackery in the medical device field. Presentation at the Second National Conference on Quackery, Chicago, Oct 25, 1963. 6. Wolfe SL. Testimony to the Subcommittee on Health of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, U.S. House of Representatives. Hearing on Food Supplement Regulation, Aug 22, 1974, pp 894. 7. Barrett S, Herbert V. The Vitamin Pushers: How the "Health Food" Industry Is Selling America a Bill of Goods. Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1994, pp 292-293. 8. Barrett S. Contact reflex analysis. Chirobase, April 16, 1998. 9. Nutritional program report for Patient Xxx Xxx. Generated March 27, 2007. 10. The history of the Acoustic CardioGraph. Acoustic CardioGraph Web site, accessed March 27, 2007. 11. ACG - Nutritional cardiograph. drkaslow.com Web site, accessed March 26, 2007. 12. ACG home page, accessed March 28, 2007.
I think any "hysterical screeching and ranting" must be your own.
GMCarter - 18 Apr 2007 11:02 GMT >> LOL..that presumes I'd waste my time reading any more of the crap on >> quackwatch than I already have. I spent too much of my life looking at >> their hysterical screeching and ranting. > >Is any of it "hysterical screeching and ranting"? Let's >look at the first four paragraphs of the article. Go for it. People can read it at their leisure. As a source of opinion, not any original research, I won't waste my time reading their sh.t.
Thank you just the same.
George M. Carter
keystone@mark.com - 18 Apr 2007 17:18 GMT "Go for it. People can read it at their leisure. As a source of opinion, not any original research, I won't waste my time reading their sh.t."
I don't recall quack watch saying they do original research. They provide documented information provided by others and/or reviews of scientific literature bearing on a given topic.
I have yet to see critics provide opposite of same, which would be the only credible basis by which to evaluate either quack watch or the critics. That is what would distinguish it from "opinion".
In the current example statements were made and a time line provided about the practices and products of a company based on documentation. If there are errors and/or equally documented information to the contrary the critics can provide, let them do so.
GMCarter - 19 Apr 2007 11:49 GMT >"Go for it. People can read it at their leisure. As a source of opinion, >not any original research, I won't waste my time reading their sh.t." > >I don't recall quack watch saying they do original research. They don't. They provide their bigoted hysterical spin on research.
Sorta like pharma companies that turn science into sh.t to market drugs and sell more of them. Thus, losing sight of the benefits and limitations of any particular intervention, CAM or drug.
George M. Carter
*** ** http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/17/amgen-dialysis-study-biz-cz_kd_0417amgen.html?p artner=biotech_newsletter Sciences and Medicine Dosing For Dollars By This Author Kerry Dolan BURLINGAME, Calif. -
Large, for-profit dialysis chains administered significantly more of Amgen's blockbuster anti-anemia drug Epogen than did not-for-profit dialysis centers, a study published today in The Journal of the American Medical Association found.
The study was authored by Dr. Mae Thamer of the Medical Technology and Practice Patterns Institute, a research institute in Bethesda, Md., and five other researchers. The authors used Medicare claims data to examine Epogen dosage for 159,500 dialysis patients in December 2004.
For-profit facilities used an average dose of Epogen, also known as epoetin, that was 20,838 units per week--16% higher than the average dose at nonprofit facilities, the study found. An editorial that appears in the same issue of JAMA notes that the 2004 Medicare reimbursement rate of $10 per 1,000 units of Epogen corresponded to $1,700 a year per patient in higher expenses for the higher average dose.
The higher doses of Epogen are more than just an economic issue--they could pose a health risk as well. There has been much debate among the kidney care community lately about the appropriate targets to use when giving Epogen.
The conclusions in the JAMA study also underline flaws in the way Medicare reimbursement for dialysis treatment is currently structured. Most of the 335,000 kidney failure patients in the U.S. who receive dialysis are covered by Medicare, no matter how old they are. Typically, Epogen, a red-blood-cell-boosting drug, is given intravenously during a patient's weekly dialysis session. Medicare reimburses dialysis centers directly for this treatment at a fixed amount. But reimbursement for the use of Epogen is not capped; instead, it is based on the amount of the drug that is used. Perhaps not surprisingly, Medicare spends more money on Epogen--nearly $2 billion--than on any other drug.
Dialysis chains such as DaVita (nyse: DVA - news - people ) and Dialysis Corporation of America (nasdaq: DCAI - news - people ) usually receive volume discounts for drugs such as Epogen, so the chain makes a profit on the spread between the discounted purchase price and the higher Medicare reimbursement rate.
Medicare also reimburses at 6% above the average sales price of the drug. A Morgan Stanley report estimated that dialysis chains made 25% of their profits on the Epogen spread. Last year 21% of DaVita's revenue came from reimbursements for Epogen.
Part of the problem is Medicare's low rate of reimbursement for the dialysis service. The rate has changed very little in the last two decades, and because it has not been adjusted for inflation, the real dollar value that dialysis centers receive for their services has declined by about 65%.
"There is no question the potential for using Epogen as a profit center is out there," says Dr. Jeffrey Berns, a professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania and a kidney care specialist. "The government has known about this all along. [Medicare] has had plenty of opportunities to address this. One is to pay a fair price for the dialysis service itself"--which Berns believes has not happened.
"It's almost a wink, wink kind of thing: We [Medicare] can't get an increase in monthly dialysis payments through Congress," so go ahead and use Epogen as a profit center. "Now it's coming back to bite them," Berns says.
Studies published last year showed increased health risks associated with higher levels of hemoglobin, the oxygen-containing protein in the blood, in chronic kidney disease patients and cancer patients being treated for anemia resulting from chemotherapy. This led the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to put its strongest black-box warning on Epogen and two similar drugs, Aranesp and Procrit, in early March.
Aranesp is an Amgen (nasdaq: AMGN - news - people ) drug used to treat anemia in cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy, and Procrit is a Johnson & Johnson (nyse: JNJ - news - people ) drug that competes with Aranesp. The warning states that use of the anti-anemia drugs results in "an increased number of deaths and of non-fatal heart attacks, strokes and heart attacks" when the drugs were used to target hemoglobin levels higher than 12 grams per deciliter.
Various bodies, including the U.S. House of Representatives' Ways and Means Committee and MedPac, the federal government's Medicare Advisory Panel, have discussed changing the way Epogen is reimbursed, in order to improve patient safety and remove the profit incentive to use higher doses of Epogen.
The JAMA study comes at a difficult time for Amgen, the most profitable biotechnology company in the world. In addition to receiving the black-box warning, Amgen has received disappointing results on a number of clinical trials, including one that might have expanded use of Vectibix, a cancer drug approved last fall. Its stock has fallen 23% from a 52-week high of $77. Last week the company's chief financial officer resigned.
On April 16, full results were released from a study showing that patients with cancer who did not have anemia because of their chemotherapy were significantly more likely to die if they received Aranesp. Such use, though not sanctioned by the FDA, represents perhaps a tenth of the use of anemia drugs.
"I think doctors in general are going to be cautious about prescribing these agents in the cancer of anemia setting," says David P. Steensm, of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., at a press conference. He was not affiliated with the study. "The black-box [warning] makes people pay attention." He emphasized that it is not clear why Aranesp would decrease survival.
The scrutiny of Amgen's drugs is far from over. On May 10, an FDA panel is scheduled to discuss the safety of Epogen, Aranesp and Johnson & Johnson's Procrit.
keystone@mark.com - 19 Apr 2007 15:50 GMT >I don't recall quack watch saying they do original research. "They don't. They provide their bigoted hysterical spin on research."
As requested, support beyond opinion please at the same level as that documented by quack watch.
"Sorta like pharma companies that turn science into sh.t to market drugs and sell more of them. Thus, losing sight of the benefits and limitations of any particular intervention, CAM or drug."
Irrelevant and the last is not a logical extension of the former above.
We remain as before without equal and oppisite documentation by which to support your opinions about quack watch and in the current example about the people and timelines presented about the company and products in question.
GMCarter - 20 Apr 2007 12:02 GMT >>I don't recall quack watch saying they do original research. > >"They don't. They provide their bigoted hysterical spin on research." > >As requested, support beyond opinion please at the same level as that >documented by quack watch. LOL...piss off. If you want to believe every word and interpretation of quackwatch, go right ahead. I could not care less--you will anyway!
That's my view. If you don't like it, that's too bad. I'm CERTAINLY not going to waste my time providing evidence for why I feel this way.
Suffice it to say, my view is that Quackwatch is a crap source for any information. Others may find it simply marvelous.
George M. Carter
keystone@mark.com - 20 Apr 2007 16:18 GMT >>>I don't recall quack watch saying they do original research. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Suffice it to say, my view is that Quackwatch is a crap source for any >information. Others may find it simply marvelous. We know, we know, you have an opinion and will stick to it; absent any evidence in support. Some few times now you have been asked to provide information contrary to that found at quack watch of equal quality to it that shows its flaws as you maintain in your repeated opinion.
You have/can not provide it. Opinion costs only the time to spend at any corner bar any time of the week to get it in abundance.
Mark Thorson - 18 Apr 2007 20:59 GMT > Go for it. People can read it at their leisure. As a source of > opinion, not any original research, I won't waste my time reading > their sh.t. All of the article is backed up by references to primary sources of information. When confronted with reliable factual information that you are unable to refute, you call it "opinion", but that doesn't make it so.
Quackwatch includes some of the historical sources they reference. Here's a link to the text of the criminal conviction of Royal Lee for his fraudulent activities:
http://www.casewatch.org/doj/lee.shtml
It's not an "opinion" that Lee was convicted of the counts in this conviction.
You may now resume your hysterical screeching and ranting.
GMCarter - 19 Apr 2007 11:50 GMT >> Go for it. People can read it at their leisure. As a source of >> opinion, not any original research, I won't waste my time reading >> their sh.t. > >All of the article is backed up by references >to primary sources of information. Again--so what? Their interpretation is in question. I do not trust their interpretation.
You may read and swallow their bullshit as is your wont. I'm not interested in their bullshit propaganda and vile distortions. Any credibility they may have had long ago evaporated for me.
George M. Carter
keystone@mark.com - 19 Apr 2007 15:43 GMT "Again--so what? Their interpretation is in question. I do not trust their interpretation.
You may read and swallow their bullshit as is your wont. I'm not interested in their bullshit propaganda and vile distortions. Any credibility they may have had long ago evaporated for me."
As any relevant view to the contrary is obliged to do to be credible, exactly where do their conclusions about the people and products in the article not find support in the documentation presented? Please point to other documentation to the contrary that supports equallly well another view. Your opinion about their documentated information is yet to be given any serious credibility by heaping more ajectives upon themselves.
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2007 20:47 GMT > Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious > organization's website? You shouldn't. You're mind is already made up.
The web site backs up it's statements with references. It cites evidence. You hate that.
If you were to even look at the web site, you'd find your beliefs being challenged successfully right and left. You couldn't handle that.
No, you definitely should not visit http://www.quackwatch.org
Tunderbar - 16 Apr 2007 21:46 GMT > > Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious > > organization's website? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > No, you definitely should not visithttp://www.quackwatch.org Sorry, but you are wrong.
The "quackwatchers" have little to no credibility.
TC
keystone@mark.com - 16 Apr 2007 21:52 GMT "Sorry, but you are wrong.
The "quackwatchers" have little to no credibility."
With regard to the issue of the subjectline, how is that? Which part of
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2007 23:32 GMT > > > Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious > > > organization's website? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > The "quackwatchers" have little to no credibility. Just because you pronounce it so?
That's not a very strong argument, but I guess it's the strongest one you can make.
If quackwatch were to make such an assertion about you, you can be sure that assertion would be backed up by quotations from you and references to reliable sources of information proving you wrong, along with links to primary sources.
But that's because quackwatch adheres to a high standard of evidence. Nobody expects you to meet that standard.
Tunderbar - 17 Apr 2007 14:58 GMT > > > > Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious > > > > organization's website? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You can't fault me for failing to provide evidence against quackwatch because I used just about the same level of evidence that quackwatch routinely uses against non-mainstream non-AMA approved practitioners.
TC
keystone@mark.com - 17 Apr 2007 15:32 GMT "You can't fault me for failing to provide evidence against quackwatch because I used just about the same level of evidence that quackwatch routinely uses against non-mainstream non-AMA approved practitioners."
What evidence have you presented about quackwatch? Look at the original article to see the routine level of evidence with references and timeline about the topic. What fault do you find in it to illustrate your assertions?
amicuscuriae - 24 Apr 2007 17:38 GMT >"You can't fault me for failing to provide evidence against quackwatch >because I used just about the same level of evidence that quackwatch [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >timeline about the topic. What fault do you find in it to illustrate >your assertions? hi , boy you guys get snakey! how about newstarget.com? i suss their stories and they always check out ok, and the cite full ref,s not cut,n,clips. havent seen quackwatch will go look am curious. big pharma sucks! so do some small co,s. if you dont check out what your,e taking..well ..caveat emptor!
GMCarter - 17 Apr 2007 10:53 GMT >> Why in the world would I read anything at the discredited, delirious >> organization's website? > >You shouldn't. You're mind is already made up. You bet. Based on long experience and wasting too much time of my life on their hysterical ravings.
George M. Carter
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