Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / March 2007
fats used to replace trans fats are dangerous
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Tunderbar - 19 Mar 2007 17:12 GMT http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-c194bc1b-010f-421d-921f-bccab7baf68c.aspx
Trans fats have gained a bad name because of their detrimental effects on cardiovascular health and have been in the news because of the actions of New York City and other US cities, which are banning them from restaurant foods.
An industry response has been the development of so-called inter- esterified fats (since you can't fry or make pastry without fat). Such fats are typically made by first rearranging the location of fatty acids on a natural fat (usually soybean oil) with enzymes, then blending with naturally occurring saturated and unsaturated fats to produce the desired consistency. One such a product is called Novolipid®.
These fats are devoid of trans-fatty acids, which are so common in hydrogenated ("hardened") fats. But studies performed over a mere four weeks have found that use of such replacement fats by 30 healthy adults produced a reduction in HDL "good" cholesterol levels and, worse, a 20% rise in blood glucose level. The glucose effect was traced to a fall in insulin action. The fats compared were palm oil (saturated), partially hydrogenated soybean oil (containing trans- fats), or inter-esterified soybean oil.
It appears it may be necessary to think again about this technological fix. A buch better solution might be to change the food formulation so natural fats can be used.
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TC
Tunderbar - 19 Mar 2007 17:14 GMT > http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-c194bc1b-010f-421d-921f-bccab7baf68c.... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > TC http://www.stop-trans-fat.com/interesterified-fat.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-01/bu-nfs011607.php
Juhana Harju - 19 Mar 2007 17:18 GMT : Trans fats have gained a bad name because of their detrimental effects : on cardiovascular health and have been in the news because of the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] : fix. A buch better solution might be to change the food formulation so : natural fats can be used. Related abstract:
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2007 Jan 15;4:3. Stearic acid-rich interesterified fat and trans-rich fat raise the LDL/HDL ratio and plasma glucose relative to palm olein in humans. Sundram K, Karupaiah T, Hayes K. Food Technology & Nutrition Research Unit, Malaysian Palm Oil Board, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Dietary trans-rich and interesterified fats were compared to an unmodified saturated fat for their relative impact on blood lipids and plasma glucose. Each fat had melting characteristics, plasticity and solids fat content suitable for use as hardstock in margarine and other solid fat formulations. METHODS: Thirty human volunteers were fed complete, whole food diets during 4 wk periods, where total fat (~31% daily energy,
>70% from the test fats) and fatty acid composition were tightly controlled. A crossover design was used with 3 randomly-assigned diet rotations and repeated-measures analysis. One test fat rotation was based on palm olein (POL) and provided 12.0 percent of energy (%en) as palmitic acid (16:0); a second contained trans-rich partially hydrogenated soybean oil (PHSO) and provided 3.2 %en as trans fatty acids plus 6.5 %en as 16:0, while the third used an interesterified fat (IE) and provided 12.5 %en as stearic acid (18:0). After 4 wk the plasma lipoproteins, fatty acid profile, as well as fasting glucose and insulin were assessed. In addition, after 2 wk into each period an 8 h postprandial challenge was initiated in a subset of 19 subjects who consumed a meal containing 53 g of test fat. RESULTS: After 4 wk, both PHSO and IE fats significantly elevated both the LDL/HDL ratio and fasting blood glucose, the latter almost 20% in the IE group relative to POL. Fasting 4 wk insulin was 10% lower after PHSO (p > 0.05) and 22% lower after IE (p < 0.001) compared to POL. For the postprandial study the glucose incremental area under the curve (IAUC) following the IE meal was 40% greater than after either other meal (p < 0.001), and was linked to relatively depressed insulin and C-peptide (p < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Both PHSO and IE fats altered the metabolism of lipoproteins and glucose relative to an unmodified saturated fat when fed to humans under identical circumstances. PMID: 17224066
http://tinyurl.com/382zl4
Free full text: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17224066
 Signature Juhana
monty1945@lycos.com - 19 Mar 2007 21:45 GMT Yes, I've mentioned that the new "non-trans fat" stuff may be worse than the "trans fat." However, keep in mind that "trans fat" is "bad" only in terms of "markers." If you give lab animals a diet rich in a typical margarinem (rich in "trans fat"), they will live longer than giving them a diet rich in rancid fish oil, and also cod liver oil. In fact, it's likely that they would live longer than animals fed the same amount of fat in the form of typical fish oil supplements, as well as something like chicken fat cooked while exposed to air. However, unlike decades ago, there are few studies these days that determine how long the animals live. Instead, they determine if the cholesterol levels of a rabbit are raised a bit on certain diets. Utterly ridiculous !
monty1945@lycos.com - 19 Mar 2007 21:53 GMT I'll add that my general rule of thumb for baked goods is that it has to be fat free or nearly so (and with very little or no cholesterol), or else the fat has to be at least 75% saturated. If it is, I don't care about "trans fat" - that is not an issue. The unsaturated bonds make such foods unhealthy, not the type of bonds. The old nutritional textbooks make this point, but it's been ignored because the people in charge have an ideological committment to the notion that "saturated fat" causes this or that "disease." In fact, the are not even willing to define "saturated fat" in a way that would allow for experimentation. Lard, now about 40% saturated, is called a "saturated fat," which makes no sense whatsoever. Most such studies really show that those who eat more pork products are less healthy than those who do not, which does make sense (saturated fatty acids have nothing to do with it). On my site, I quote recent molecular- level evidence that explains exactly why such food (pork, "red" meat, and "processed" meat) is so unhealthy. There is also evidence showing that steamed salmon and leftover skinned chicken are very unhealthy.
My free site is at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-
monty1945@lycos.com - 19 Mar 2007 22:02 GMT Also, palm oil is about half saturated fatty acids, so why not call it a "half saturated fat?" Don't common sense and basic logic come first, before you begin any scientific investigation?
Ron Peterson - 20 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT On Mar 19, 4:02 pm, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> Also, palm oil is about half saturated fatty acids, so why not call it > a "half saturated fat?" Don't common sense and basic logic come > first, before you begin any scientific investigation? http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17277466 indicates that palm oil is more likely to cause a MI than soybean oil.
"These data suggest that as currently used in Costa Rica, and most likely in many other developing countries, the replacement of palm oil with a polyunsaturated nonhydrogenated vegetable oil would reduce the risk of Ml."
-- Ron
monty1945@lycos.com - 20 Mar 2007 03:33 GMT Ron:
1. Why don't you tell us, since you think this is an important study, how many MI's there were in the palm vs. the soybean groups?
2. What about all the studies that suggest the opposite? Should a person add them up, and whichever category has more, that is what one should follow? Or should a person begin by a molecular-level understanding, and then work up to the tissue/organ level, and finally to "epidemiological studies?" Or do you propose something else?
3. The study you cite does not control for antioxidant content, which is important, because both oils are rich in unsaturated oils. I could do the same experiment and get the same results. How? By using the best quallity soybean oil and the worst quality palm oil.
4. If saturated fatty acids are to blame, how are the millions of Asians consuming large amounts of coconut oil (which is 92% saturated fatty acids) not dropping dead like flies from MI?
5. Have you ever even considered the possibility that highly unsaturated fat sources (including palm and lard) are potentially very dangerous, whereas something like coconut oil is not? Or is this a thought that you cannot tolerate on any level?
monty1945@lycos.com - 20 Mar 2007 06:22 GMT Note to number 4: If, on the other hand, I use the best quality palm oil and the cheapest soybean oil I can buy in a local supermarket, would you be willing to put your own money up, along with mine? We will use several dozen rats, divide them into two equal groups, and see which group lives long on a diet of 30% fat, either the quality palm oil or the cheap soybean oil. If the palm oil doesn't live as long, on average, I will pay for all expenses. Otherwise, you pay for all expenses. Sounds like an easy way to demonstrate that I am incorrect, right? How soon can I expect you to be ready to put your money up for this experiment? It will be held in escrow by our attorneys until the experiment is completed.
Ron Peterson - 21 Mar 2007 05:59 GMT On Mar 19, 9:33 pm, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> 1. Why don't you tell us, since you think this is an important study, > how many MI's there were in the palm vs. the soybean groups? I never made a judgement on the importance of the study because I don't have the full text. The abstract indicated that there were significantly mor MI's in the palm oil group.
> 2. What about all the studies that suggest the opposite? Should a > person add them up, and whichever category has more, that is what one > should follow? Or should a person begin by a molecular-level > understanding, and then work up to the tissue/organ level, and finally > to "epidemiological studies?" Or do you propose something else? The saturated fats have disadvantages on physical properties because of their higher melting point causing them to accumulate in the abdominal cavity.
Saturated fats are not metabolized as well as unsaturated fats, giving rise to additional fat deposits.
The phospholipid layers on cells when dominated by satured fatty acids reduce the ability of the cells to function.
> 3. The study you cite does not control for antioxidant content, which > is important, because both oils are rich in unsaturated oils. I could > do the same experiment and get the same results. How? By using the > best quallity soybean oil and the worst quality palm oil. The supply of vegetables is good in most warmer climates resulting in high levels of antioxidents.
> 4. If saturated fatty acids are to blame, how are the millions of > Asians consuming large amounts of coconut oil (which is 92% saturated > fatty acids) not dropping dead like flies from MI? I have pointed out in previous posts that Malaysia suffers from higher CVD despite their high consumption of coconut oil.
> 5. Have you ever even considered the possibility that highly > unsaturated fat sources (including palm and lard) are potentially very > dangerous, whereas something like coconut oil is not? Or is this a > thought that you cannot tolerate on any level? Palm oil is high in saturated fats, lard is lower, but beef fat is high in saturated fat. Palm kernel oil is very high in saturated fatty acids.
There isn't anyway for consumers to know if coconut oil has been prepared in a safe manner, so people are better off avoiding it.
-- Ron
Juhana Harju - 21 Mar 2007 08:29 GMT : On Mar 19, 9:33 pm, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
:: If saturated fatty acids are to blame, how are the millions of :: Asians consuming large amounts of coconut oil (which is 92% saturated :: fatty acids) not dropping dead like flies from MI? : : I have pointed out in previous posts that Malaysia suffers from higher : CVD despite their high consumption of coconut oil. I don't doubt it but do you have any reference for this?
 Signature Juhana
Ron Peterson - 22 Mar 2007 02:56 GMT On Mar 21, 2:29 am, "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> : I have pointed out in previous posts that Malaysia suffers from higher > : CVD despite their high consumption of coconut oil.
> I don't doubt it but do you have any reference for this? I can't find the original data on which I based my conclusion. However, http://www.foodmarketexchange.com/datacenter/product/fruit/coconut/dc_pi_ft_coco nut09.htm shows that the Philipines is the leading coconut oil producer. And, http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=9&pagesize=20&sort=Country shows that the combined life (M&F) is 67.48, which is quite low.
-- Ron
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Mar 2007 03:52 GMT "I don't doubt it but do you have any reference for this?"
What does it matter? If one can find a nation (Sri Lanka) with a population of millions, widespread use of coconut oil, and very low rates of heart disease, that is a direct refutation of the claim that "saturated fat causes heart disease." There is no need to worry about how Malaysians are eating these days, with all the "modernization" occurring there. And of course, you can find low mortality from all causes, because in some of these countries, there is much higher infant mortality, which brings the statistics down signifcantly. There also tends to be more workplace deaths as well. What does this have to do with death from heart disease? The reason that so much attention is paid to it in nations like the USA is because people (especially men) die of it in their 40s, 50s, and early 60s. Thus, if a nation has a mortality in the late 60s, the statistics are useful in this context, provided that they are still eating a lot of coconut, and not eating the highly refined, highly unsaturated oils (corn, canola, safflower, etc.).
Now if someone like Ron would like to find statistics for all of these factors, then I would take a look at them, but again, I cite studies that simply should not be possible if the "saturated fat causes heart disease" is true, though I don't consider palm oil or lard a "saturated fat" - one can call them an "approximately half saturated fat" perhaps, but calling them "saturated fats" is simply a demonstration of gross ignorance or a lack of basic human reasoning skills. How can people who eat huge amounts of coconut (and animalds fed coconut) and who also have "high cholesterol" not have any heart attacks? The only way is if their life expectancy is about 50 or less, which is not the case for the poeples in question (e.g., the Pukapukans). If you look at people like Malaysians, the only intelligent thing to do is to study the rural people and the urban people seperately, and eliminate deaths in infancy, as well as workplace deaths and any other "un-natural deaths." One can then do this for USA statistics, of course. Think of the USA, where African- American males have a significantly lower life expectancy, yet they eat the same food that "white" males from similar socio-economic backgrounds do. You should know, Ron, that in science, such factors need to be controlled for, or else you do not have science.
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Mar 2007 04:59 GMT Did all of you see the new report, which contains the following passage:
QUOTE: ...The researchers couldn't explain why eating more animal fat was associated with breast cancer risk. It may be that factors other than fat are involved. For instance, grilling red meat can create cancer-causing chemicals, and high-fat dairy products contain growth factors that could affect breast cancer risk.
Earlier studies had suggested one reason for the increased cancer risk, relating this to the heterocyclic amines (HCAs) that form when red meat is cooked at high temperatures (like frying and grilling), especially well-done. In laboratory studies, HCAs bond to estrogen receptors and create estrogen-like effects. In earlier research with women past menopause, those who consistently ate hamburger, beef steak and bacon very well done thus getting high levels of HCAs -had more than four times the breast cancer risk in comparism with women who consumed these meats raw or medium done.
New research suggests that HCAs may pose more danger to some people than others. Like many carcinogens, HCAs have to be activated to be able to damage our DNA and pose cancer risk... UNQUOTE.
I explained this on my site quite a while ago, and I also cited evidence showing how important a role PUFAs play in this process. The evidence is so clear that the question that most intrigues me is how people like Ron refuse to even consider it.
Source of the quoted passage: http://www.tribune.com.ng/22032007/hlt2.html
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Mar 2007 06:21 GMT On my web site, you can go to the page: http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/oddsandendspart2.msnw
and you will see how I integrate some of the relevant studies into a coherent framework (it's a short essay).
MattLB - 23 Mar 2007 19:25 GMT On Mar 22, 5:21 am, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> On my web site, you can go to the page:http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/oddsandendspart2.msnw> > and you will see how I integrate some of the relevant studies into a > coherent framework (it's a short essay). Coherent? It's a rambling assortment of clippings. Just to pick out two...
>And here's a passage from a recent study supporting the point made above about >how PUFAs cause damage: "Arachidonic acid epoxides, previously suggested to > be involved in apoptosis, oncogenesis and cell proliferation, are generated by >cytochrome P450 epoxygenases..." That quote doesn't support your point and doesn't say PUFA cause damage. It says that epoxygenase enzymes create epoxides.
>Finally, here is Lancet study that has received almost no attention: It's a bit of a non-story, that's why.
>QUOTE: How long-term dietary intake of essential fatty acids affects the >fatty-acid content of aortic plaques is not clear. We compared the fatty-acid [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and also between adipose tissue and plaque omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty > acids (r = 0.89). So to summarise: the pattern of PUFA in plaques in the artery walls matches the pattern of PUFA in the blood flowing through those arteries and in adipose tissue. That's what you'd expect if they were both neutral dumping grounds.
MattLB
MattLB - 23 Mar 2007 19:15 GMT On Mar 22, 3:59 am, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> Did all of you see the new report, which contains the following > passage: Funnily enough, no, since Nigerian newspapers aren't where I go to look for scientific information.
> QUOTE: ...The researchers couldn't explain why eating more animal fat > was associated with breast cancer risk. It's an epidemiological study. I thought those were worthless non- science as far as you were concerned.
> New research suggests that HCAs may pose more danger to some people > than others. Like many carcinogens, HCAs have to be activated to be > able to damage our DNA and pose cancer risk... UNQUOTE. > > I explained this on my site quite a while ago, and I also cited > evidence showing how important a role PUFAs play in this process. None at all since it's heat that does it and PUFA don't contain nitrogen.
MattLB
Juhana Harju - 22 Mar 2007 10:46 GMT : On Mar 21, 2:29 am, "Juhana Harju" : <spamshantigiriorama.removes...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : I can't find the original data on which I based my conclusion. : However, http://www.foodmarketexchange.com/datacenter/product/fruit/coconut/dc_pi_ft_coco nut09.htm
: shows that the Philipines is the leading coconut oil producer. And, : http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=9&pagesize=20&sort=Country : shows that the combined life (M&F) is 67.48, which is quite low. Thanks anyway. If you happen to find the above mentioned Malaysia reference later, please post it.
 Signature Juhana
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Mar 2007 22:24 GMT Here is my point made in 2002. As I've said before, these points I am making are not orginal, and are not being made by "alternative" types. Instead, they reflect the molecular-level evidence, as opposed to the "epidemiological." As any epidemiologist will tell you, if the underlying assumptions used for an epidemiological study are incorrect, the results can not only be inaccurate, but also misleading in the extreme, which is why they are not really science, in that they only deal with correlations, not causation.
Mutat Res. 2002 Sep 30;506-507:9-20. "Comments on the history and importance of aromatic and heterocyclic amines in public health." Weisburger JH. The carcinogenic risk of aromatic amines in humans was first discovered when a physician related the occurrence of urinary bladder cancer to the occupation of his patients. They were employed in the dyestuff industry, chronically exposed to large amounts of intermediate arylamines. Laboratory investigations disclosed that rats and mice administered specific azo dyes arylamines or derivatives developed cancer, primarily in the liver. Also, at that time, a possible pesticide, 2-aminofluorene, was tested for chronic toxicity, revealing that it rapidly induced cancers in several organs of rodents. This led to investigations on the mode of action of this class of chemicals, including their metabolic conversion. Biochemical activation to more reactive N-hydroxy compounds was found to occur, mostly in the liver, through what is now known as the cytochrome p450 enzyme systems, and also through prostaglandin synthetases. There were species differences. Guinea pigs were resistant to carcinogenesis because of the low titer of the necessary activating enzymes. In target tissues, a second essential reaction was necessary, namely acylation or sulfate ester formation. The reactive compounds produced display attributes of genotoxicity in appropriate test systems. Interest in this class of compounds increased when of Sugimura and colleagues discovered the formation of mutagens at the surface of cooked meat or fish, that were identified as heterocyclic amines (HCAs). These compounds undergo the same type of activation reactions, as do other arylamines. Epidemiological data suggest that meat eaters may have a higher risk of breast and colon cancer. HCAs induced cancer in rats in these organs and also in the prostate and the pancreas. In addition, there is some evidence that they affect the vascular system. The formation of HCAs during cooking can be decreased by natural and synthetic antioxidants, by tryptophan or proline, or by removing the essential creatine through brief microwave cooking prior to frying or broiling. The amounts of HCAs in cooked foods are small, but other components in diet such as omega-6-polyunsaturated oils have powerful promoting effects in target organs of HCAs. On the other hand, the action of HCAs may be decreased by foods containing antioxidants, such as vegetables, soy, and tea. Some constituents in foods also induce phase II enzymes that detoxify reactive HCA metabolites. Additional mechanisms involved decreased growth of neoplasms by intake of protective foods. Possibly, the carcinogenic effect of HCAs is accompanied by the presence of reactive oxygen species (ROS), which are also inhibited by antioxidants. World-wide, there have been many contributors to knowledge in this field. Adequate information may permit now to adjust lifestyle and lower the risk of human disease stemming from this entire class of aryl and HCA.
MattLB - 23 Mar 2007 19:32 GMT On Mar 22, 9:24 pm, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> Here is my point made in 2002. What point? You just pasted in an abstract. And why are you replying to Juhana's post with something irrelevant to it?
> Instead, they reflect the molecular-level evidence, as opposed > to the "epidemiological." Ahem. From the abstract you quoted: "Epidemiological data suggest that meat eaters may have a higher risk of breast and colon cancer."
They seem to have no problem with epidemiological data so why are you posting their abstract in an anti-epidemiology rant? Once again you shoot yourself in the foot.
MattLB
Tom - 21 Mar 2007 18:37 GMT Trans fats were used primarily because restauranters can maintain their fried foods crispy longest among most fats. A cooking fat widely used in India and Japan (and maybe elsewhere in Asia) is rice bran oil. It has a high smoking point oil that is suitable for frying. Besides, at least for rats, it lowers cholesterol. See
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050512110703.htm
I use it in lieu of canola oil, and my palate does not taste any difference.
Tom
http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-c194bc1b-010f-421d-921f-bccab7baf68c.aspx
Trans fats have gained a bad name because of their detrimental effects on cardiovascular health and have been in the news because of the actions of New York City and other US cities, which are banning them from restaurant foods.
An industry response has been the development of so-called inter- esterified fats (since you can't fry or make pastry without fat). Such fats are typically made by first rearranging the location of fatty acids on a natural fat (usually soybean oil) with enzymes, then blending with naturally occurring saturated and unsaturated fats to produce the desired consistency. One such a product is called Novolipid®.
These fats are devoid of trans-fatty acids, which are so common in hydrogenated ("hardened") fats. But studies performed over a mere four weeks have found that use of such replacement fats by 30 healthy adults produced a reduction in HDL "good" cholesterol levels and, worse, a 20% rise in blood glucose level. The glucose effect was traced to a fall in insulin action. The fats compared were palm oil (saturated), partially hydrogenated soybean oil (containing trans- fats), or inter-esterified soybean oil.
It appears it may be necessary to think again about this technological fix. A buch better solution might be to change the food formulation so natural fats can be used.
***
TC
Tunderbar - 21 Mar 2007 20:58 GMT I use the real deal. Lard and tallow and evoo. Man, does it make food taste good.
Pork fat rules.
TC
> Trans fats were used primarily because restauranters can maintain their > fried foods crispy longest among most fats. A cooking fat widely used in [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > TC monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Mar 2007 01:02 GMT "There isn't anyway for consumers to know if coconut oil has been prepared in a safe manner, so people are better off avoiding it. "
That's what's great about coconut oil - you can tell by taste and smell if it is okay, unlike the highly refined and highly unsaturated oils. In fact, there have been scandals in which the best and worst quality olive oils have been blended together and sold as first cold pressed, extra virgin.
"I have pointed out in previous posts that Malaysia suffers from higher CVD despite their high consumption of coconut oil."
One thing we've probably all seen are studies showing that when people eat such "traditional" diets, then eat a Western diet, they do have much higher rates of heart disease. I have cited and quoted some of these studies on my site. Here is something worthy of note in this context, from a study entitled "The Modernization of Asia:"
"...This region is undergoing unprecedented economic growth, rapid technological changes, urbanization, and major changes in lifestyle. The very high CHD death rates in Singapore (the most economically developed country in the region), which are similar to those of the United States and Australia, provide a warning that Asia may expect a surge in CHD..."
Thus, if one just looks at epidemiological evidence, one can find support for just about any position, in terms of "correlations" or "associations." In any case, usually what happens is that the people eat diets much richer in highly refined, highly unsaturated oils when switching over the the Western diet. If you, Ron, disagree, then why don't you take me up on my experimental offer? Do you want this to be an issue settled by the scientific method or do you just want to adhere to your beliefs, without doing direct, on-point experiments?
Source: Circulation. 1996;94:2671-2673. © 1996 American Heart Association, Inc.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/11/2671
Note: Did you know, Ron, that Dr. Richard Stein, a spokesman for the AHA, pointed out well over a year ago, that only oxidized LDL can cause heart disease, and saturated fatty acids cannot oxidize anything in a human biochemical context? LDL that contains PUFAs, however, are most easily oxidized. Could you please simply acknowledge here that you understand the implications of this (or that you do not)?
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