Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2007
Cancer Death Rates
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GMCarter - 28 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT This underscores the point that an effect may appear to be statistically significant (though come to think of it, I'm not sure whether the mortality decline in cancer deaths is stat sig) but clinically meaningless.
George M. Carter
** http://www.cancerdecisions.com/012807.html CANCER DEATH RATE DRAMA
The US cancer death rate declined by one-half of one percent between 2003 and 2004...and the world went wild. In fact, on January 17, 2007, President Bush paid a rare visit to the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, MD, to bask in the reflected glory of this alleged turning point in the war on cancer.
"Progress is being made," Bush claimed, after attending a roundtable discussion with cancer scientists. "We're spending about $28.6 billion here at the NIH, which was doubled from 15 years ago." However, the President failed to mention the equally significant fact that his administration has cut the National Cancer Institute's (NCI) budget by approximately $72 million between fiscal years 2005 and 2007.
Bush called the decline in cancer deaths "the steepest drop ever recorded." While technically true, this statement gives the unmistakable - and misleading - impression that the decline in the number of deaths was both dramatic and precipitous. This is not the case at all. As the respected weekly Cancer Letter trenchantly pointed out, the number of cancer deaths had either risen or remained the same, on a year by year basis, for over 70 years since record-keeping began. Meanwhile, the widely trumpeted decline in US cancer deaths amounted to only a few thousand - a fraction of a percentage point of the overall toll taken by cancer in 2004. And in 2003 the fall was even smaller, amounting to less than four hundred fewer deaths. Yet on the announcement of that minuscule drop, also, scientists made a self-congratulatory mountain out of a statistical molehill.
This year, the leaders of the cancer war, accompanied by legions of enablers in the mainstream media, seemed to lose all sense of proportion. This was "big news," they intoned, "very exciting;" we've "finally turned the corner," it is "highly gratifying," "no fluke," and so on. John R. Seffrin, PhD, chief executive officer of the American Cancer Society (ACS), said, "The hard work towards preventing cancer, catching it early, and making treatment more effective is paying dramatic, lifesaving dividends." Wow! That's a heavy burden of unwarranted assumptions to place on the shoulders of such a small change in mortality statistics.
Dr. Ahmedin Jemal, the epidemiologist who prepared the report for the ACS, declared that the decline "is not only continuing, but the decrease [in 2004] is much larger" [than that recorded for the previous year, 2003].
But "much larger" is a relative term. According to the figures released by the American Cancer Society (ACS) there were 553,888 US deaths from cancer in 2004. This compared somewhat favorably to the 556,902 cancer deaths in 2003. 2004's figure thus represented a decline of 3,014 deaths, just over half of one percentage point. In 2003, by comparison, there were 557,271 deaths, just 369 fewer than 2002's total.
While any drop in cancer mortality is certainly good news, we have to ask whether the small declines recorded in these two successive years represent some decisive turning point in the war on cancer (as nearly everyone has unquestioningly assumed) or whether it may simply be a statistical glitch in an otherwise unremittingly grim picture. Are we seeing "light at the end of the tunnel," as Larry Norton, MD, of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, told Public Broadcasting System's Jim Lehrer or could it be the headlight of an approaching train?
Of course, politicians of all stripes were quick to seize the opportunity and exploit it to the full. However, it remains to be seen whether this tentative two-year trend (spanning the years 2002-2004) will be sustained into the present day. While I join in appreciating each and every extra life that is not lost to cancer, there are good reasons for skepticism about the self-congratulatory mood that has overtaken the oncology profession in the light of this news.
For example, one need look no further than the American Cancer Society's own recently-released publication, 2007 Cancer Facts & Figures, an annual review that gives a good statistical projection for cancer incidence and mortality in the current year. For 2007, the ACS projects a cancer death figure of 559,650. But wait a minute. Isn't this actually 5,762 more deaths than those recorded for the year 2004, the year that triggered the recent Presidential celebration?
According to statistics given in consecutive editions of Cancer Facts & Figures, which are available online, US cancer deaths for the last five years were as follows:
2002 557,650 2003 556,902 (a decline of 369 over previous year) 2004 553,888 (a decline of 3,014 over previous year) 2005 570,280 (an estimated increase of 16,392 over previous year) 2006 564,830 (an estimated decline of 5,450 over previous year) 2007 559,650 (an estimated decline of 5,180 over previous year)
Perhaps there is some logical explanation for the steep increase in 2005, although I have yet to see one. One is hard pressed to find anyone who has even noticed this less than encouraging projection, although such statistics are easily available at the ACS Web site (www.cancer.org). I came across only one publication that pointed out this discrepancy: the SeniorJournal.com, which tracks trends of interest to Baby Boomers (see below). The SeniorJounal's headline read: "Cancer Society Predicts Cancer Deaths to Increase in 2007 Despite Long Rate of Decline." This seems to me to be a more accurate and newsworthy way of reporting the story. Yes, the absolute number of US cancer deaths did decline a little between 2002 and 2004; however, this year's projected death toll is already more than it was at the end of 2003. Unfortunately, this inconvenient fact does not fit the propaganda needs of those who are committed to the notion that we are making slow but steady progress in the war on cancer. By and large, the media latched uncritically onto the ACS and NCI press releases, and ignored any inconvenient truth that might disturb the rosy picture that these organizations systematically project.
(The issue may be further clouded by the fact that in 2006, ACS statisticians modified their method of tallying cancer mortality. They claim that they now utilize a new and more accurate method of projecting mortality figures, including a larger sample that includes 86 percent of the population. One can only be thankful for improved scientific record keeping. But I read no analyses claiming this new method affected estimates of the overall cancer death rate.)
If the projected 2007 figures prove accurate, as those for previous years generally have, then the alleged "turnaround" in the cancer mortality figures between 2002 and 2004 will turn out to have been a temporary phenomenon, a statistical hiccup that, absent the political agendas of the various key players, would normally have passed without notice outside of a narrow circle of biostatisticians. Enter the Baby Boomers
There are also other reasons for skepticism. It is no secret that cancer is primarily a disease of one's later years. According to government (SEER) data, the median age of US cancer patients at death is 73 years. Of course, this varies by tumor type as well as other factors: for example, the average age at death is 69 years for breast cancer, 71 for lung cancer, 75 for cancers of the colon and rectum, etc. Ethnicity is also relevant: for example, African-Americans in general die of cancer at a younger age than so-called Caucasians.
All other things being equal, however, a nation's death tally from cancer largely depends on the age of its population. Put another way, the larger the senior citizen segment of the population, the more cancer deaths there will be overall.
As is well known, a great many people alive today were born in the post-World War II era, between 1946 and 1958. They are collectively known as the Baby Boom generation. (Some experts now contend that the definition of this postwar generation should be expanded to include people born through 1964.) This cohort began when GIs returned from the War and the US economy expanded rapidly. The birth rate during this period was more than 50 percent greater than for the preceding generation, which was born during the Depression years. In fact, there were over 79 million babies born into the Baby Boom generation.
In the next few years, as these Baby Boomers enter their senior years, cancer incidence will also tend to increase. In about ten to fifteen years, the Baby Boomers will start to die of the diseases of old age, including, of course, cancer. The impact of such demographics will then be solidly felt on national mortality figures for cancer, as well as other diseases. Thus, unless something changes radically in the sphere of cancer treatment or prevention, we can expect that there will be a steady upturn in the overall cancer death statistics, coinciding with the aging of the Boomer generation, and that this will continue for a decade or longer.
The reality of rising cancer mortality figures in an aging population will hit us hard, and it is something for which our leaders appear unprepared, both intellectually and practically. It is likely to make all the current talk about the decline in cancer mortality, and the conquest of cancer, sound increasingly hollow.
Signature --Ralph W. Moss, Ph.D.
monty1945@lycos.com - 28 Jan 2007 21:24 GMT It's more about the "issue business," apparently. Those in power want to talk about the great job they are doing on an issue (such as cancer mortality), and then the media plays it up, but then there is a more close examination, and then there are articles like this one. Obviously, a "much ado about nothing" situation, but how much intellectual energy is used up by the process?
As an aside, Mr. Carter, why don't you quote "AIDS deaths" statistics in those same years, and also tell us who is generating and keeping those statistics?
monty1945@lycos.com - 28 Jan 2007 22:40 GMT Just to be clear, I am talking about "AIDS deaths" in the USA only.
GMCarter - 29 Jan 2007 00:00 GMT >Just to be clear, I am talking about "AIDS deaths" in the USA only. LOL....fine! There are ample data from the US and Europe showing that mortality related to AIDS has dropped steadily over the past decade. Largely because people have access to new antiretroviral drugs.
They are not a cure. They have side effects--sometimes pretty horrible ones. The pharmaceutical industry as usual rapes every last dime out of people for those drugs (that very often NIH FUNDED the R&D for).
So I'm not sure what your point is...but it doesn't much matter.
George M. Carter
monty1945@lycos.com - 29 Jan 2007 01:08 GMT Mr. Carter: Can you answer simple questions? What are the statistics and who is generating them and publishing them? Surely if you can't provide this much, you don't expect anyone to take what you have to say about this subject seriously. I already know - I want you to answer these questions. I will not explain my motivations, aside from the obvious.
GMCarter - 29 Jan 2007 12:54 GMT >Mr. Carter: Can you answer simple questions? What are the statistics >and who is generating them and publishing them? Mr. Monty, these aren't simple questions--they're loaded with bullshit.
If I provide you statistics from CDC or WHO, you'll simply say they're making them up. So what's the point?
You'll believe whatever psychotic fantasies suit you.
Meanwhile, I don't rely on statistics alone. I work with actual human beings living with HIV disease. In many places in the world.
George M. Carter
monty1945@lycos.com - 30 Jan 2007 01:11 GMT You can assume what you like, Mr. Carter. I am willing to test my claims (if someone wants to fund them) in a way that adheres to the scientific method, so if you that that is a "psychotic" notion, so be it.
I asked a simiple question about US "AIDS deaths." It sounds like you are saying that the CDC is doing the research that they then have published as annual "AIDS deaths." Is this so? I don't think you are claiming that people from the WHO are doing anything more than publishing what they are given, but again, my question is what agency is actually compiling the numbers?
spamfree@spam.heaven - 30 Jan 2007 03:35 GMT >You can assume what you like, Mr. Carter. I am willing to test my >claims (if someone wants to fund them) in a way that adheres to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >publishing what they are given, but again, my question is what agency >is actually compiling the numbers? Questions here are to elicit information, not to test people. You are not our teacher. If you know, say so and make your point. Making spurious points around people not being willing to play your game are surely invalid.
jack
monty1945@lycos.com - 30 Jan 2007 05:50 GMT Jack:
I have encountered "Mr. Carter" on this and other newsgroups, and he usually refuses to answer basic questions, yet clearly acts like an "expert." He often uses obscentities, and thinks that he can brow beat everyone into believing his non-scientific notions. Even if he were correct in everything he claimed, this would be an inappropriate way to respond. I wanted to see if he knew, and if not, what he would say.
As to the question at hand, see: http://www.kff.org/hivaids/us.cfm
Ask yourself two basic questions: what interests are represented by "The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation," and why are they generating the statistics?
In any case, I'm not disputing that what gets classified as "AIDS deaths" in the USA differs from what they say. The key point is this: people like Mr. Carter claim that "AIDS deaths" have declined dramatically because of the "miracle drugs." Yet, for example, in newspaper articles about the so-called "new strain" of "HIV" in New York City (over a year ago), the point was made that a large majority of people "infected with HIV" in the USA do not even know that they are, and also that the "miracle drugs" extend life by about 18 months to 2 years. Now if we can all at least agree that there is a huge number of people "infected with HIV," and that most don't know it, and that even if they do, and take the drugs (which often have terrible side effects, leading many to stop taking them), they are only going to live another 2 years or so, there should be a lot more deaths each year in the USA from "HIV/AIDS," probably at least ten times the amount, if not more. Add up the numbers yourself, Jack, and you will see that this is simple mathematics. People like Mr. Carter will not address such points, but instead resort to using obscentities.
However, if he or any other supporter or the "HIV/AIDS" notion is willing to be forthcoming, as you, Jack, demand of me, then let us get to the heart of the issue:
1. Are the "experts" incorrect when they claim that most "HIV infected people" in the USA do not know that they are?
2. Are the "experts" incorrect when they claim that with the "miracle drugs" people will live about 2 years longer?
3. If the "experts" are correct, then how is it possible for there to be so few "AIDS deaths" in the USA over the last few years?
Before I made these points, I wanted to establish that "Mr. Carter" either does not know the most basic of "HIV/AIDS" information, or that he will not disclose this information, even though he acts as if he is a foremost "AIDS expert" in many if not most of his newsgroup posts on this issue.
Can we have an intelligent discussion on this topic, Jack?
monty1945@lycos.com - 30 Jan 2007 06:40 GMT If you want to consider the actual numbers, go to: http://www.kff.org/ hivaids/upload/3029-071.pdf
Now they are saying there are about 1.2 million "infected with HIV," with 400,000 in full-blown "AIDS," and 40,000 newly "infected" each year. Their numbers are that up to 59% are not being "cared for," and that 25% don't know. Yet there are 17,011 "AIDS deaths" in 2005.
This foundation made the following statement for their June 1999 publication:
QUOTE: Due primarily to advances in treatment for HIV, the number of AIDS-related deaths in the US in 1997 (the most recent year for which data are available) was only about half that of 1996 (16,685 compared to 31,130, a decline of 46%). UNQUOTE.
In the same publication, they say that 1 in 300 Americans, approximately, are "living with HIV," as well as that: "The estimated number of new HIV infections occurring each year in the US has stabilized in recent years at approximately 41,000."
What, exactly, is the amount of time it takes to "die of AIDS?" In the mid 1980s, they claimed it took a couple of years, give or take a bit, depending upon who was making the claim and exactly when it was made. After that, it was said to take a year or so to "die of AIDS." If this is the same "pathogen," how could this period of time change significantly? Since, according to this foundation, between about a third and a quarter of those "infected with HIV" don't know, and many are not willing to take the drugs as prescribed, the numbers do not make sense. Even if we assume that the period to "progression to AIDS" takes about a decade, which is roughly the new claim, how can these statistics be possible? There is no claim that only a few hundred people were "infected with HIV" in the early 1990s, but rather that tens of thousands were, and so they should be dying now, and the number of deaths should be at least the same amount said to be "infected" each year, since the "epidemic" has been ongoing since the early 1980s. In fact, a very high percentage of the "AIDS deaths" are due to the side effects from the drugs (such as liver failure), so where are all the deaths from that large percentage of those who don't know that they are "infected with HIV?"
So what do we have to consider, number-wise? About 40,000 new "infections" each year, for the last several years, though there is a claim that those numbers were conisderably higher previously, due to the incredible "miracle drugs" that few take as prescribed, many might try, but don't because they don't know that they are "infected," and that a handful of true believers take as prescribed. It is said to take a bit more than a decade to succumb to this "retrovirus," and that the "miracle drugs" somehow extend life a couple of years (apparently, their mechanism is by doing things like destroying livers - go figure). Obviously, there should be a lot more "deaths from AIDS" by now, if these statistics are remotely close to being accurate. But try to get an "expert" to explain these impossible numbers and you will get more ludicrious claims and/or obscentities (if you are able to get any response at all).
GMCarter - 30 Jan 2007 12:47 GMT >If you want to consider the actual numbers, go to: http://www.kff.org/hivaids/upload/3029-071.pdf And then you spew out your deranged, misinformed nonsense.
So at least you did the work to find some data that you could "refute" in your very imitable fashion.
And sadly, it leaves you just being a kook.
I hope you find some funding for your research. But really, just get "infected" and you will see what happens to your "CD4 cells" and how long it takes you in particular to develop "opportunistic infections" and "die" if you don't take the "drugs."
George M. Carter
GMCarter - 30 Jan 2007 12:44 GMT >You can assume what you like, Mr. Carter. I am willing to test my >claims (if someone wants to fund them) LOL.
Jim Chinnis - 30 Jan 2007 16:44 GMT GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in part:
>>You can assume what you like, Mr. Carter. I am willing to test my >>claims (if someone wants to fund them) > >LOL. Someone would be happy to fund him to do that if he were competent to do the research and write a proposal. That's how it works. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
GMCarter - 31 Jan 2007 11:40 GMT >GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Someone would be happy to fund him to do that if he were competent to do the >research and write a proposal. That's how it works. Partly, yes. Partly though, research funding happens when one is lucky enough to get well-disposed reviewers who are having a good day and don't have a bug up their a.s.
It's a bit like peer review: a lot more arbitrary than folks would like to admit. Given the Congressional (and Bush: f.ck him very much) flat funding of NIH, competition is even more fierce, while money is squandered on big ticket projects.
By contast, even in the best of worlds with lots of money and a higher rate of success for applications, I suspect Monty would still find a tough row to hoe for his inchoate ideas. Maybe if he'd been able to ask Mengele, he'd've had a better chance.
George M. Carter
Roman Bystrianyk - 30 Jan 2007 17:57 GMT What might be found interesting from 1900 to 1990 the cancer mortality rate more than tripled from approximately 60 per 100,000 to 200 per 100,000.
http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php? id=22&event=graphs_print_list_item
> This underscores the point that an effect may appear to be > statistically significant (though come to think of it, I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 172 lines] > Signature > --Ralph W. Moss, Ph.D. monty1945@lycos.com - 30 Jan 2007 21:19 GMT I will simply address one point in this post, and that is that either the "HIV/AIDS experts'" claims cannot be correct, or else the statistics are wrong by a wide margin. If you add up all the people who have been "infected with HIV" since about 1980, and then use an average "latency period" that the "experts" would agree with, there should be a lot more "AIDS deaths" than the statistics presented claim to be the case, even if you take all kinds of other factors into account, which is certainly reasonable. 1 in 300 Americans are supposedly "infected with HIV" now, and this statistic has been similar for several years now, and going back more than a decade, what could the number have been, 1 in 500, 1 in 1000? It does not matter, because by now, there should be a lot more than 17,000 or so "AIDS deaths" per year. By now, a minimum of around 150,000 deaths a year would be a reasonable number to expect, and that is taking into account the "miracle" of the "AIDS cocktail." If others wish to be unreasonable, or to simply ignore this glaring inconsistency, so be it. But there is stands, and it cannot be erased from the historical record. Rebecca Culshaw has a Ph.D. in using statistics to create medical/biological models, and she was led by her research to conclude that the "HIV/AIDS" claims are a stasticial impossibility. Note that I did not read her new book, and I don't know exactly what she studied; rather, I decided to examine the numbers for myself. I am more interested in understanding health and "disease" at the molecular level, but I was curious, and decided to take a look at the numbers that are presented to the public about "HIV/AIDS" in the USA.
spamfree@spam.heaven - 31 Jan 2007 06:47 GMT >I will simply address one point in this post, and that is that either >the "HIV/AIDS experts'" claims cannot be correct, or else the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >level, but I was curious, and decided to take a look at the numbers >that are presented to the public about "HIV/AIDS" in the USA. So you reckon there are not enough AIDS deaths to reconcile with the stats of people who have, and those who don't know they have?
How many families put pneumonia, cancer, or leukemia on the death certificate? I know of two such examples of prominent people who have died of "leukemia". Their lifestyles were not widely known and their familes wanted it kept that way. I know one prominent person who died very publicly of aids after a 20 year battle. He was a hemophilliac. Then there are the folk who don't know they have the virus, and never sero convert, so they would only know if they were tested. There are so many inaccuracies in statistics like this. I guess that there might be some stats that are massaged for some agenda, but not ALL of them IMHO.
jack
spamfree@spam.heaven - 31 Jan 2007 07:29 GMT >What might be found interesting from 1900 to 1990 the cancer mortality >rate more than tripled from approximately 60 per 100,000 to 200 per >100,000. And what is the average age of onset of these cancers? What are the average ages of adult deaths in these two groups?
jack
Roman Bystrianyk - 31 Jan 2007 13:44 GMT On Jan 31, 2:29 am, spamf...@spam.heaven wrote:
> On 30 Jan 2007 09:57:05 -0800, "Roman Bystrianyk" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > jack That's a very good point. I don't have those statistics at this time. I will look into finding the death rate per age group for cancer. If, for example, deaths in 20-30, 30-40 year olds had greatly increased then it would be reasonable to assume that external factors are involved in increased cancer deaths. If not, then we can be more confident that an aging population would be more of a factor. However, discounting child mortality in the first part of the 1900s there hasn't been a huge gain in life expectancy as if often assumed. For example if you reached 20 years of age in 1950 you could expect to live to be about 71 years old and in 1998 (50 years later) about 76 - not a massive increase at all.
http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php?id=41&event=graphs_print_list_item
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