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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2007

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Diet and diabetes

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Susan - 09 Jan 2007 19:55 GMT
http://health.msn.com/centers/diabetes/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100150895&
GT1=9029


Susan
spamfree@spam.heaven - 13 Jan 2007 03:47 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>http://health.msn.com/centers/diabetes/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100150895&
GT1=9029

>
>Susan

Interesting, but seems a bit biased.

Because we won't exercise and keep our weight down, we must deprive
ouselves of a very important macronutrient, and all the cheap,
nutritious, and delicious foods that contain it.?

They simplistically dismiss metformin as only reducing blood glucose.
Well, the mechanisms that it uses to achieve this is surely important.
First up it reduces the high rate of gluconeogenesis in type 2
diabetics which is the pathway that converts your rump steak to
glucose. And it also improves the utilisation of insulin allowing more
glucose into the energy-starved cells.

Now if a fat couch potato presents with raised blood glucose, do you
fix the dangerous and progressing disease causing high blood glucose
with a drug that immediately corrects the high glucose and halts the
progression of the disease, or do you advocate diet and lifestyle
change that may occur instantly, that may occur in a few weeks,
months, or that may never occur? Afterall, if someone presents with
haemorrhage, one does not prescribe a diet rich in clotting factors,
one staunches the flow and THEN changes other things to the best of
one's abilities.

Of course, if you have developed a glucose handling problem, you
should reduce your glucose load and avoid foods that have an adverse
effect on your glucose levels. The simplistic claim that all breads
are bad is not born out by testing many different breads, some of
which are quite benign with respect to spiking glucose levels. And
then there is your rump steak that can spike your glucose
signifiantly.

It ain't as simple as this article seems to want to make out.
And then there is the conept of type 2 DM being a fat metabolism
problem, and the glucose handling bit is only a side show.
The ADA insisting on long term studies seems the middle road to my way
of thinking.

All this propaganda about the ADA being bought by the grain industry
looks a bit silly when you think of the other food industry lobbies
that seem to be ignored. There is the soy bean mob, the beef
producers, and other meat producers and the oil producers.
If they all put their oars in, I would suspect that they would even
out any perceived imbalances in influence.

jack
Enrico C - 13 Jan 2007 10:19 GMT
>>http://health.msn.com/centers/diabetes/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100150895&
GT1=9029
[...]

> Because we won't exercise and keep our weight down, we must deprive
> ouselves of a very important macronutrient, and all the cheap,
> nutritious, and delicious foods that contain it.?
[...]

Don't you think that a low glycemic load diet would be better for diabetics
and prediabetics?
spamfree@spam.heaven - 14 Jan 2007 04:58 GMT
>>>http://health.msn.com/centers/diabetes/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100150895&
GT1=9029

>[...]
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Don't you think that a low glycemic load diet would be better for diabetics
>and prediabetics?

Nope, the ideal would be a balanced diet with regular exercise, but
once the damage has been done, you have to restrict carbs, and/or take
drugs, depending on how advanced the disease is.

If the disease is caught very early, all the symptoms may be
reversible. If irrevocable damage has occurred, then remedial diet
and/or drugs will be required for the rest of one's life.

jack
Enrico C - 14 Jan 2007 12:42 GMT
>>>>http://health.msn.com/centers/diabetes/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100150895&
GT1=9029

>>[...]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Nope,

What do you make of this?

http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp
Canadian Diabetes Association
| Glycemic Index - A new way of looking at carbs
|
[quoted text clipped - 169 lines]
| French fries  
|  

> the ideal would be a balanced diet

What do you mean by "balanced"?

> with regular exercise,

Ok, but lots of people simply do not exercise. I agree they should, but
it's a fact they don't. Thus, I think their diet shoud take into account
their lack of exercise.

> but
> once the damage has been done, you have to restrict carbs,

The American Diabetes Association says:

http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/foodpyramid.jsp
"Using the Diabetes Food Pyramid"
[...]
"At the base of the pyramid are bread, cereal, rice, and pasta..."

> and/or take drugs, depending on how advanced the disease is.

...depending on what you eat, as well, AFAIK.

> If the disease is caught very early, all the symptoms may be
> reversible. If irrevocable damage has occurred, then remedial diet
> and/or drugs will be required for the rest of one's life.

So, it's better to prevent or delay it in the first place! :-)

Signature

Enrico C

My new email address: http://www.x-privat.org/sigmail/sig-5ace6.png

spamfree@spam.heaven - 15 Jan 2007 00:57 GMT
>What do you make of this?

Seems to be OK general advice for diabetics.

>http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp
>Canadian Diabetes Association
>| Glycemic Index - A new way of looking at carbs

<snip diabetic advice>

>> the ideal would be a balanced diet
>
>What do you mean by "balanced"?

Supplying no more and no less than all the body's nutritional
requirements.

>> with regular exercise,

>Ok, but lots of people simply do not exercise. I agree they should, but
>it's a fact they don't. Thus, I think their diet shoud take into account
>their lack of exercise.

I agree, but a balanced diet for a non-exerciser will comprise less
energy. The lack of exercise will likely cause eventual health
problems, although this will depend on how little activity is done and
the person's genetic makeup.

>> but
>> once the damage has been done, you have to restrict carbs,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>[...]
>"At the base of the pyramid are bread, cereal, rice, and pasta..."

Are they perhaps being pragmatic as opposed to strictly nutritionally
optimal? I don't really know enough about the ADA to comment save
saying that I've heard that they balance up all the verified evidence
they have including all the longterm evidence with longterm outcomes
to mould their advice. I don't know, but would guess that they
advocated low GI versions of these foods. Do you know if they do?

>> and/or take drugs, depending on how advanced the disease is.
>
>...depending on what you eat, as well, AFAIK.

Well, yes, you would be advised what to eat, but medication would be
advised according to your meter.

>> If the disease is caught very early, all the symptoms may be
>> reversible. If irrevocable damage has occurred, then remedial diet
>> and/or drugs will be required for the rest of one's life.
>
>So, it's better to prevent or delay it in the first place! :-)

Absolutely. In an ideal world, folk would all eat a balanced diet,
have regular moderate activity and never suffer from MetS and DM2.

jack
Enrico C - 15 Jan 2007 12:21 GMT
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:42:26 +0100, Enrico C

>>What do you mean by "balanced"?
>
> Supplying no more and no less than all the body's nutritional
> requirements.

I can get energy either from carbs or from dietary fat, or even from
protein. What does a "balanced diet" say about that?

>>The American Diabetes Association says:
[...]
> I don't know, but would guess that they
> advocated low GI versions of these foods. Do you know if they do?

They are skeptical about the practical value of GI.

http://www.diabetes.org/glycemic-index.jsp
(American Diabetes Association)

[...]
| believe it or not, many high-fat foods, such as candy bars and pizza,
| have a low GI. If food manufacturers begin lowering the GI of processed
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
| certain foods, you can either choose to eat smaller portions of those
| foods or adjust your mealtime diabetes medication.
GreatArtist - 13 Jan 2007 17:36 GMT
I guess this thread is about removing carbohydrates from your diet to
avoid diabetes? Basically I AGREE strongly with that, except of course
for some healthy foods that have slow-to-digest carbohydrates, like
beans and brown rice. Beans will actually help keep your blood sugar
down, which is very good. Also almost any fruits and vegetables are
good for you, except for a few things like white potatoes. I'm sure
what they're talking about is removing any carbohydrates that are fast
digesting, like soda pop and other junk food. I'm definitely against
refined sugar and bleached flour. I've cut those things almost
completely out of my diet and I feel much better. I feel like crap if I
eat a lot of unhealthy food.

I also don't believe that exercise makes up for eating a crappy diet.
So I don't think heavy exercisers should eat refined sugar, corn syrup,
white potatoes, french fries, and bleached flour either. Besides
causing diabetes, junk food has many other ill effects on your body. I
can think of one celebrity who is skinny, not very old, runs every day,
and got a heart attack. I forgot his name.

Most of America's food industry is behaving in an evil, immoral way
where they do anything to make money. They are causing the majority of
our diseases. They have destroyed the quality of our food. You know how
farmers treat cattle in a very brutal, exploitative way? They give them
the wrong foods and keep them alive with antibiotics and hormones? Well
the food industry is SCREWING US OVER JUST AS BADLY!!! We, their fellow
human beings, are being treated like cattle. They are destroying our
health to make a buck. But I've opted out. I now eat pretty much only
whole, unprocessed foods. I don't want to eat food that has been ruined
by the food processors. I realize what's going on now and I will no
longer be a part of it.
Jim Chinnis - 13 Jan 2007 20:34 GMT
"GreatArtist" <wizzzer@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

>Most of America's food industry is behaving in an evil, immoral way
>where they do anything to make money. They are causing the majority of
>our diseases. They have destroyed the quality of our food.

If people didn't prefer processed  foods based on cheap corn they wouldn't
be so prevalent. The real cause of food-related illness is that people don't
pay attention to what they eat.

Some people shoot up with heroin and some eat Twinkies. Is it really the
producers' fault?
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
spamfree@spam.heaven - 14 Jan 2007 04:51 GMT
>I guess this thread is about removing carbohydrates from your diet to
>avoid diabetes? Basically I AGREE strongly with that, except of course
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>I also don't believe that exercise makes up for eating a crappy diet.

Depends what you mean by a "crappy diet". Sufficient energy (from
wherever) and the required amino acids and micronutrients, along with
water and fibre and you should do fine.

>So I don't think heavy exercisers should eat refined sugar, corn syrup,
>white potatoes, french fries, and bleached flour either.

Why not? So long as the above dietary requirements are met. The
problem is that folk who get into trouble are not necessarily the ones
eating these things, but always those who eat too much.

>Besides
>causing diabetes,

Wrong!!!

>junk food has many other ill effects on your body.

Can you name a few, given the constraints I mentioned above?

>I
>can think of one celebrity who is skinny, not very old, runs every day,
>and got a heart attack. I forgot his name.

Getting a heart attack is not necessarily due to ill health. There are
many factors involved   Genetic lottery is the biggest player.

>Most of America's food industry is behaving in an evil, immoral way
>where they do anything to make money.

That is the legal job of a public corporation. It is illegal to do
otherwise. Look at your corporations law.

>They are causing the majority of
>our diseases.

The overconsumers and under-exercisers are just puppets having their
strings pulled? Look, if no-one bought these "evil" foods that you
cite, do you think these evil, profit-driven corporations would keep
making them?

>They have destroyed the quality of our food.

Certainly not mine. Where do you shop?

>You know how
>farmers treat cattle in a very brutal, exploitative way?

Humans have mistreated animals since the dawn of time, and vice versa.

>They give them
>the wrong foods and keep them alive with antibiotics and hormones?

You obviously have little knowledge of animal physiology. I won't try
to explain your spouting of animal rights propaganda here.

>Well
>the food industry is SCREWING US OVER JUST AS BADLY!!!

I have never seen anyone force fed anything.

>We, their fellow
>human beings, are being treated like cattle.

We have choice, and choose to eat badly. Animals are force fed correct
nutrition. Go figure.

>They are destroying our
>health to make a buck.

YOU are destroying your health. They are making a buck out of your
demands.

>But I've opted out. I now eat pretty much only
>whole, unprocessed foods.

I thought the evil corporations were preventing you from doing this.
Have you been lying to me?

>I don't want to eat food that has been ruined
>by the food processors.

So why did you do it previously? Afterall, any half decent farmer
would not feed that to his cattle.

>I realize what's going on now and I will no
>longer be a part of it.

A bit slow, but at last you have realised that you are a free agent,
and not a captive bullock.

jack
 
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