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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2007Is all part. hydrog. oil trans fat?
I see many foods have part. hydrog. oils as one of the main ingredients, however, trans fat is always 0 grams. How is this possible? Presumably, there were not enough TFAs to reach the threshold they arbitrarily decided upon. If you want to understand this "issue" from a scientific perspectivve, you can go to my free web site: http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/ There is a thread in the nutrition newsgroup about "trans fat." You can ask me questions there if you like. monty1...@lycos.com wrote: > Presumably, there were not enough TFAs to reach the threshold they > arbitrarily decided upon. If you want to understand this "issue" from This makes sense for TFA of less than 0.5 grams, however, if the only oil is par. hydrog. oil , how can there just be 0.5 grams of trans fat is total fat is 10g for example? veg_all@yahoo.com wrote in part: >monty1...@lycos.com wrote: >> Presumably, there were not enough TFAs to reach the threshold they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if the only oil is par. hydrog. oil , how can there just >be 0.5 grams of trans fat is total fat is 10g for example? Give us the nutrition label info. Some foods are naturally high in fat but have some partially-hydrogenated oil added. The g of trans-fat per (usually tiny) serving may then be less than 0.5 even though fat content is high. Sometimes food manufacturers lie, too... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > I see many foods have part. hydrog. oils as one of the main > ingredients, however, trans fat is always 0 grams. How is > this possible? Fully hydrogenated oil will not have trans fats, since all the fats will be saturated. There is only a requirement to report the fats to the nearest gram, so 0.4 grams will be reported as 0 grams. A 12 gram serving of Crisco has 3 grams of saturated fat and 1.5 grams of trans fats.  SignatureRon Molecules are what is important, not artificial categories that look good in textbooks. Take a common fatty acid in fish oil that has 4 double bonds. Use the hydrogenation process to saturate one, two, or three of the bonds, and it's a "trans fatty acid" molecule. Hydrogenate all 4 bonds, and it's no longre a "trans fatty acid" molecule. However, the substance that is was created from is now a "hydrogenated" oil or fat. But the key question, of course, is, what are the health effects? To answer this, one would have to conduct properly controlled experiments that account for all practical dietary combinations. Such experiments have yet to be conducted, though I cited much of the available evidence on my site that appears to be useful in this context. >Molecules are what is important, not artificial categories that look >good in textbooks. Take a common fatty acid in fish oil that has 4 >double bonds. Use the hydrogenation process to saturate one, two, or >three of the bonds, and it's a "trans fatty acid" molecule. >Hydrogenate all 4 bonds, and it's no longre a "trans fatty acid" >molecule. <snip> That's not right, is it? I understood that the naturally common unsaturated fatty acid molecules were cis- isomers. So if you cook up a bunch of double bonds with hydrogen and a catalyst, you will then get a lot of swapping about of double and single bonds, and when it all settles down, you will have a certain proportion of the remaining double bonds as cis- and trans- isomers, and the proportions will depend greatly on the cooking conditions. Manufacturers can reduce the amount of trans- isomesr considerably by tweaking the knobs. Well, that's how I understood it. jack > >Molecules are what is important, not artificial categories that look > >good in textbooks. Take a common fatty acid in fish oil that has 4 > >double bonds. Use the hydrogenation process to saturate one, two, or > >three of the bonds, and it's a "trans fatty acid" molecule. > >Hydrogenate all 4 bonds, and it's no longre a "trans fatty acid" > >molecule. <snip> > That's not right, is it? I understood that the naturally common > unsaturated fatty acid molecules were cis- isomers. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Manufacturers can reduce the amount of trans- isomesr considerably by > tweaking the knobs. Well, that's how I understood it. jack I think that Monty is right in this case. http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html gives a good explanation, but has a slight organic food bias. One purpose of hydrogenation is to increase the melting point of fats to make the fats suitable for cookies and donuts. The increased melting point of fats leads to fat deposition in the body along with reduced fat burning. SignatureRon >> >Molecules are what is important, not artificial categories that look >> >good in textbooks. Take a common fatty acid in fish oil that has 4 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html gives a good >explanation, but has a slight organic food bias. Mind if I don't go there? The name puts me off, and "organic" is a scam IMHO. >One purpose of hydrogenation is to increase the melting point of fats >to make the fats suitable for cookies and donuts. Well, that was taken as read. >The increased melting >point of fats leads to fat deposition in the body along with reduced >fat burning. That certainly doesn't sound right to me. ALL fats in excess of energy requrements of the body will be deposited as mostly saturated fats as I understand the process. jack > >I think that Monty is right in this case. > >http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html gives a good > >explanation, but has a slight organic food bias. > Mind if I don't go there? The name puts me off, and "organic" is a > scam IMHO. It's not that bad since it's mainly technical facts. > >The increased melting > >point of fats leads to fat deposition in the body along with reduced > >fat burning. > That certainly doesn't sound right to me. > ALL fats in excess of energy requrements of the body will be deposited > as mostly saturated fats as I understand the process. jack Fat deposits reflect the diet of non-ruminant animals. Monounsaturates, PUFAs, and short chain saturated fats are burned at a faster rate than saturated fats or trans fats. Abdominal fat is more highly saturated than dermal fat. Animals fed a high PUFA diet won't develop much abdominal fat. SignatureRon >> >I think that Monty is right in this case. >> >http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html gives a good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >It's not that bad since it's mainly technical facts. Rather vague technical facts, actually. I quote: "The high temperatures and catalysts used for this chemical reaction weaken the double bonds and, as a side effect, cause a large percentage of the natural Cis double bonds to change to Trans double bonds. Trans fatty acids are present mainly in partially hydrogenated fats, but they are also present in hydrogenated fats because chemical reactions never achieve 100% efficiency." Two points from this. I mentioned that the temp, pressure, time and other conditions in the hydrogenation chamber could be altered to cause little trans- fat production. Monty said: "Take a common fatty acid in fish oil that has 4 double bonds. Use the hydrogenation process to saturate one, two, or three of the bonds, and it's a "trans fatty acid" molecule. " My contention is that that is not necessarily so, and anyway, its fate can be controlled in the manufacturing process. And there are naturally occurring trans-fats in the living world, and hence in our diets, and so the tiny proportion of double bonds left after complete hydrogenation that might end up with a trans- instead of a cis- configuration is not really worth worrying about. >> >The increased melting >> >point of fats leads to fat deposition in the body along with reduced [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Fat deposits reflect the diet of non-ruminant animals. Yes, there is constant fat deposition/liberation going on in lipocytes. This means that there will be a lagging reflection of dietary molecular species, as you say. >Monounsaturates, PUFAs, and short chain saturated fats are burned at a >faster rate than saturated fats or trans fats. Abdominal fat is more >highly saturated than dermal fat. Surely FFAs are burned according to the body's needs. An interesting fact is that if weight is not being lost or gained, all fats consumed are burned that day. Of course, there is some exchange of molecular types as above. >Animals fed a high PUFA diet won't develop much abdominal fat. They will if they eat too many calories for their expenditure. If they eat too little calories, they will not develop any fat. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >ALL fats in excess of energy requrements of the body will be deposited >as mostly saturated fats as I understand the process. jack Incorrect from the studies I have read. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > >>ALL fats in excess of energy requrements of the body will be deposited >>as mostly saturated fats as I understand the process. jack > >Incorrect from the studies I have read. Thanks Jim, can you give me a quick link? I was under the impresssion that cold-blooded creatures (fish and plants) tended to store mostly unsaturated fats and warm blooded creatures, saturated, but that was just a general principle I heard long ago. I would be interested in updating my knowledge. I just did a quick search, but all I found was the continuing obsesssion with food, and not what the body is made of. If I get a chance later I'll crack open a biochem text, thanks, jack > > > Use the hydrogenation process to saturate one, two, or > > >three of the bonds, and it's a "trans fatty acid" molecule. > > That's not right, is it? <snip> > I think that Monty is right in this case. No, he's wrong as usual, and jack is right. Turning a double bond into a single bond can't make it trans, since it has to be double to be trans in the first place. I've pointed out his error before, but he's clearly very attached to it. MattLB |
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