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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2007How to combine low fat, low sugar, low simple carbohydrates, low oxalate, low purine dietary recommendations. Food shopping. Portions preparations.
1. How would you combine dietary recommendations like . low fat . low sugar . low simple carbohydrates . low oxalate . low purine for a. losing 10-20 pounds b. heart disease risk c. prediabetes risk d. kidney stone risk e. preventing bph, having to get up from sleep at nighttime 2. Aisles. Supermarkets. How would you shop for these combinations of dietary recommendations in the aisles of Whole Foods Markets and Trader Joe's Neighborhood Grocery Stores?... References checked so far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dietetic_Association http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/facres/wlltt.html http://www.channing.harvard.edu/willett.htm > 1. How would you combine dietary recommendations like > . low fat > . low sugar > . low simple carbohydrates > . low oxalate > . low purine > for > a. losing 10-20 pounds > b. heart disease risk > c. prediabetes risk > d. kidney stone risk > e. preventing bph, having to get up from sleep at nighttime The South Beach diet would be your best choice. Saturated and trans-fats are the most important ones to limit since they don't metabolize as well as the mono-unsaturates and PUFAs. Omega 3 fatty acids help with b. and c. Having adequate fluid consumption along with avoiding alcohol is important for preventing kidney stones. Reducing abdominal fat will reduce pressure on the bladder. If you have BHP, you may need to see an urologist or possibly an endocrinologist to check for hormone levels. > 2. Aisles. Supermarkets. > How would you shop for these combinations of > dietary recommendations in the aisles of Whole Foods Markets > and Trader Joe's Neighborhood Grocery Stores?... Although I visit those stores, one can do OK at a regular supermarket. Buy fruits instead of fruit juice. Buy sweet potatos instead of white. Buy whole wheat bread instead of white. Buy lean meats instead of beef. Buy vegetables. Avoid butter, margarine, ice cream, cake, and cookies.  SignatureRon :: 1. How would you combine dietary recommendations like :: . low fat [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] : metabolize as well as the mono-unsaturates and PUFAs. Omega 3 fatty : acids help with b. and c. To my knowledge saturated fats are not avoided in the South Beach diet. Also the consumption of fruits is limited to only one daily fruit. So, I wonder why you are still recommending the diet? : Having adequate fluid consumption along with avoiding alcohol is : important for preventing kidney stones. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : : Buy sweet potatos instead of white. If one wants to avoid oxalates, carrots would be a better choice as sweet potatoes are quite high in oxalates. : Buy whole wheat bread instead of white. : : Buy lean meats instead of beef. Salmon and legumes would be healthier choices. : Buy vegetables. : : Avoid butter, margarine, ice cream, cake, and cookies. Also avoid full fat dairy. SignatureJuhana > : The South Beach diet would be your best choice. Saturated and > : trans-fats are the most important ones to limit since they don't > : metabolize as well as the mono-unsaturates and PUFAs. Omega 3 fatty > : acids help with b. and c. > To my knowledge saturated fats are not avoided in the South Beach diet. Also > the consumption of fruits is limited to only one daily fruit. So, I wonder > why you are still recommending the diet? I watched an explanation of the diet on FitTV, and the diet avoids saturated fat by using lean meat. The limitation on fruits is only at the beginning of the diet. The diet recommends against fruit juices because of the high glycemic index. Of course, any diet can be changed or have some ideosyncrancy that isn't healthy. > Salmon and legumes would be healthier choices. Yes, the South Beach diet does recommend salmon. I am not sure of how they treat legumes. > Also avoid full fat dairy. Sure. Skim milk is great, but it's difficult to find a variety of low fat cheeses. SignatureRon ::: The South Beach diet would be your best choice. Saturated and ::: trans-fats are the most important ones to limit since they don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : saturated fat by using lean meat. The limitation on fruits is only at : the beginning of the diet. Fruits are banned in the initial phase of the diet. Limitation to to one daily fruit is done in phase 2. The maintenance phase of the diet is so liberal that is does not differ much from an unhealthy standard American diet (which is of course the reason why the South Beach diet became so popular). : The diet recommends against fruit juices : because of the high glycemic index. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : Yes, the South Beach diet does recommend salmon. I am not sure of how : they treat legumes. Vegetable protein sources are very healthy and their intake should be increased. :: Also avoid full fat dairy. : : Sure. Skim milk is great, but it's difficult to find a variety of low : fat cheeses. Well, I have been eating low fat cheeses for years. SignatureJuhana > To my knowledge saturated fats are not avoided in the South Beach diet. 13% of caloric intake in Phase 1 (Weeks 1-2), then 8%, AFAUI. http://www.southbeachdiet.com/public/about-dr-agatston/2004_diet_paper_archives.pdf The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated Fat A Randomized Trial Y.WadyAude,MD;ArthurS.Agatston,MD;FranciscoLopez-Jimenez,MD,MSc;EricH.Lieberman,MD; MarieAlmon,MS,RD;MelindaHansen,ARNP;GerardoRojas,MD;GervasioA.Lamas,MD; CharlesH.Hennekens,MD,DrPH "thesak" <don.saklad@gmail.com> wrote in part: >1. How would you combine dietary recommendations like > . low fat [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/facres/wlltt.html >http://www.channing.harvard.edu/willett.htm Since all the criteria you have chosen involve restrictions (rather than targeting things to eat), I would suggest that you simply make a list of things to avoid for each criterion. Anything not on one of the lists would be ok... I'm not saying you're criteria look good, as there are many other aspects to good nutrition (including the sufficient consumption of many fats) which your first criterion conflicts with. I'd suggest you think as much about things you *should* be eating for your health situation, rather than just what restrictions to impose. As an example, depending on the nature of the kidney stone problem, you might want to increase consumption of magnesium and citrate. For heart disease risk minimization, you might need to increase your consumption of unsaturated fats, particulatly long-chain omega-3s. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu : "thesak" <don.saklad@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] : heart disease risk minimization, you might need to increase your : consumption of unsaturated fats, particulatly long-chain omega-3s. I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet could include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, carrots, tomatoes, pomegranates, blueberries, red onions, olive oil, citrus fruits, apples, and whole grains. SignatureJuhana >: "thesak" <don.saklad@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >pomegranates, blueberries, red onions, olive oil, citrus fruits, apples, and >whole grains. Until the finding of the study White LR, Petrovitch H, Ross GW, Masaki K, Hardman J, Nelson J, Davis D, Markesbery W. Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Apr;19(2):242-55. PMID: 10763906 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/2/242> (full text) "... Conclusions: In this population, higher midlife tofu consumption was independently associated with indicators of cognitive impairment and brain atrophy in late life." is properly explained or refuted I would be _very_ wary to recommend tofu. Now Juhana will probably say that in Japan and especially in Okinawa tofu has been consumed for ages and dementia is not especially high there. I would reply that: 1) the association between tofu consumption and cognitive impairment has not been researched in Japan, 2) there could possibly be something in Japanese diet which protects the brains of Japanese people living in Japan from potential harmful effects of tofu. The study of White et al was epidemiological, so naturally causality cannot be concluded. But it is a well designed and conducted study, so perphaps we should pay some attention to it at least until further evidence becomes available. SignatureMatti Narkia ::: "thesak" <don.saklad@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] : consumption was independently associated with indicators of : cognitive impairment and brain atrophy in late life." Well you can always cherry-pick studies. There are much more studies supporting soy consumption. : is properly explained or refuted I would be _very_ wary to recommend : tofu. Now Juhana will probably say that in Japan and especially in : Okinawa tofu has been consumed for ages and dementia is not especially : high there. There is strong epidemiological evidence from the Okinawan centenarian studies that there is much less dementia and other cognitive decline in Japanese populations consuming a lot of tofu. (In Okinawa tofu is consumed in even higher amounts than in the main islands of Japan.) I would reply that: 1) the association between tofu : consumption and cognitive impairment has not been researched in Japan, Or you are not aware of those studies. Much of the Japanese nutritional research is still published only in Japan and in Japanese. : 2) there could possibly be something in Japanese diet which protects : the brains of Japanese people living in Japan from potential harmful : effects of tofu. Yes, Okinawans consume a high amount of vegetables and fish, and that is what I am suggesting as well. : The study of White et al was epidemiological, so naturally causality : cannot be concluded. But it is a well designed and conducted study, so : perphaps we should pay some attention to it at least until further : evidence becomes available. You could also pay attention to those epidemiological studies showing the benefit of soy consumption. And they are not a few. SignatureJuhana >:: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet could >:: include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, carrots, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Well you can always cherry-pick studies. Not in this case. To my knowledge the above White et al. study is the only long-term study exploring the association between tofu consumption and cognitive impairment. >There are much more studies >supporting soy consumption. They have not explored the association between long-term tofu consumption and cognitive impairment. Whatever benefits other studies may have found, the potential negative effect of tofu on brain makes it much less attractive for any purpose, IMHO. The article Tofu and Brain Aging PSA Rising Postate Cancer News, Info Support. <http://psa-rising.com/eatingwell/tofu_brainap00.htm> from prostate cancer support site seems to agree: "... This analysis is part of the Honolulu Heart Program which began tracking the health of 8,000 Japanese-American men in 1965. Tests of cognitive function were administered to 3734 men; brain images were obtained from 574 and autopsy results were available for 290 to evaluate brain atrophy. In addition, test scores of 502 wives of participants were also analyzed. The more tofu eaten, the greater the likelihood of mental decline according to Lon White, MD, of the Hawaii Center for Health Research and lead author of the study. Dr. White said that both men and women eating the most tofu were up to twice as likely to show some signs of impaired mental function later in life than those who rarely ate tofu. The proposed link between tofu consumption and decline of brain function is the isoflavones now being touted for prevention of prostate cancer and breast cancer. These chemicals which have a mild estrogenic effect also affect an enzyme in the body, tyrosine kinase, which may block changes in the brain related to learning. [...] Men commonly report that hormonal therapy for prostate cancer has a negative impact on cognition and memory. If eating tofu, or taking genistein pills, against prostate cancer or its recurrence gradually fogs the brain, it becomes less attractive as a "natural" remedy and more like a drug with specific positive effects and some unfortunate negative side effects." Also, some recent studies have shown that the benefits of soy for some purposes may not be as large as previously thought. Here one of these studies: Kreijkamp-Kaspers S, Kok L, Grobbee DE, de Haan EH, Aleman A, Lampe JW, van der Schouw YT. Effect of soy protein containing isoflavones on cognitive function, bone mineral density, and plasma lipids in postmenopausal women: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2004 Jul 7;292(1):65-74. PMID: 15238592 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/292/1/65> (full text) "... Conclusion This double-blind randomized trial does not support the hypothesis that the use of soy protein supplement containing isoflavones improves cognitive function, bone mineral density, or plasma lipids in healthy postmenopausal women when started at the age of 60 years or later." Comments in Isoflavones and Soy Protein in Postmenopausal Women: Disappointing Results JWatch General 2004;2004:3-3. <http://general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2004/720/3> Soy protein isoflavones do not reduce postmenopausal complications BMJ 2004;329:. <http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7469/0-f> and Soya supplements do not protect against postmenopausal changes Gottlieb BMJ 2004;329:68-68. <http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7457/68-a> >: is properly explained or refuted I would be _very_ wary to recommend >: tofu. Now Juhana will probably say that in Japan and especially in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Japanese populations consuming a lot of tofu. (In Okinawa tofu is consumed >in even higher amounts than in the main islands of Japan.) But to my knowledege there are no studies about the potential association between long-term tofu consumption and cognitive impairment among Okinawans. Okinawan centenarians have HLA (human leukocyte antigen) genetic patterns that place them at lower risk for inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. Lower inflammation levels together with healthy diet and life style including strenuous exercise may help them to retain their cognitive function longer than what is usual in most other populations. However, the existing studies about Okinawans cannot exclude the possibility that high tofu consumption could have harmful effect on their brain, too. But if effect is there, it probably would come later and could be milder than in most other populations for the reasons mentioned above. >I would reply that: 1) the association between tofu >: consumption and cognitive impairment has not been researched in Japan, > >Or you are not aware of those studies. Much of the Japanese nutritional >research is still published only in Japan and in Japanese. Any peer-reviewed Japanese medical or nutritional study worth at least the paper it's printed on would have its abstract or reference in English in Medline. Are you aware of any such studies, which are related to the potential association between long-term tofu consumption and cognitive impairment? >: 2) there could possibly be something in Japanese diet which protects >: the brains of Japanese people living in Japan from potential harmful [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >You could also pay attention to those epidemiological studies showing the >benefit of soy consumption. And they are not a few. You repeat your earlier statement. My earlier reply still applies: These studies have not explored the association between long-term tofu consumption and cognitive impairment. Whatever benefits other studies may have found, the potential negative effect of tofu on brain makes it much less attractive for any purpose. Also, some recent studies have shown that the benefits of soy for some purposes may not be as large as previously thought. SignatureMatti Narkia ::: "thesak" <don.saklad@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] : PMID: 10763906 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] : <http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/2/242> (full text) It should be noticed that there might be confounding factors affecting this outcome. One such is the widespread vitamin B12 deficiency in vegetarian subjects. The study neglected to measure this confounding factor. The possible role of vitamin B12 has not even been discussed in the study which is a clear omission. SignatureJuhana >:: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet could >:: include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, carrots, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >possible role of vitamin B12 has not even been discussed in the study which >is a clear omission. The vitamin B12 factor seems unlikely in this context, IMHO. The tested population was not known to be vegetarian, and the potential effect of B12 of lack of it would probably have caused an inverse association between at least some vitamin B12 rich food items and cognitive impairment. However, the only food item for which association with cognitive impairment was found, was tofu. If the effect was real, one culprit could be soy isoflavones, especially genistein. Genistein is an inhibitor of tyrosine kinase, which is required for the induction of long-term potentiation (LTP) in the brain's hippocampus, and genistein has indeed been found to block LTP. LTP is change in brain cause by learning, and blocking it may therefore have negative effects on cognition. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) facilitates the survival and genesis of brain cells. Soy appears to reduce BDNF in male rats, and reduced BDNF can cause neural atrophy, these findings also appear to provide evidence for a causal mechanism that might explain the positive association between tofu consumption and brain atrophy reported by White et al. But soy has also been shown to increase BDNF in female rats, so in this light BDNF fails to explain the fact the White et al. found among the wifes of the men in their cohort similar association between tofu and brain aging. White et al. proposed that in women long-term consumption of weaker soy estrogens may displace the bodys own stronger estrogen along with its benefits. Links: Tofu and Brain Aging <http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/?id=TOFU.NUT> New Findings May Support Soy-Dementia in Men <http://users.erols.com/igoddard/soy.htm> Too much tofu induces brain aging,' study shows By Helen Altonn Honolulu Star-Bulletin <http://www.vegsource.com/harris/brain_aging.htm> SignatureMatti Narkia >>:: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet could >>:: include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, carrots, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >cognitive impairment. However, the only food item for which >association with cognitive impairment was found, was tofu. One question, which perhaps should be asked, is whether one of the reasons for the relatively high rate of degenerative brain diseases among vegetarians is consumption of tofu or/and other soy products? >If the effect was real, one culprit could be soy isoflavones, >especially genistein. Genistein is an inhibitor of tyrosine kinase, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Honolulu Star-Bulletin ><http://www.vegsource.com/harris/brain_aging.htm> Other links: Long-term potentiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_potentiation> Long-term potentiation <http://hebb.mit.edu/courses/9.03/ltp/sld001.htm> <http://hebb.mit.edu/courses/9.03/ltp/index.htm> Learning Induces Long-Term Potentiation in the Hippocampus Jonathan R. Whitlock, Arnold J. Heynen, Marshall G. Shuler, Mark F. Bear Science 25 August 2006: Vol. 313. no. 5790, pp. 1093 - 109 <http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5790/1093> Brain-derived neurotrophic factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDNF> Phytoestrogens & Cognitive Function <http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04cognitivefunction.htm> SignatureMatti Narkia ::::: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet ::::: could include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] : reasons for the relatively high rate of degenerative brain diseases : among vegetarians is consumption of tofu or/and other soy products? You omitted the fact that vegetarians often have a very high homocysteine due to B12 deficiency, and both high homocysteine and B12 deficiency are related to the higher risk of cognitive decline. This question of B12 deficiency was even more relevant in sixties and seventies when the food data was collected because B12 supplementation was not as frequent as it is nowadays. To put the study in proper proportions it should be noticed that even those Japanese-Americans who had a higher risk of cognitive decline had it less than other Americans consuming a standard American diet. SignatureJuhana >::::: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet >::::: could include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy vegetables, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >data was collected because B12 supplementation was not as frequent as it is >nowadays. I did not omit anything, I suggested a question whether _one_ of the reasons etc. If consumption of tofu and possibly other soy products turns to have causal relation to brain aging, naturally a study similar to White et al. should be conducted also among vegetarians, because there probably are more people among them consuming these foods than in general population, so the potential associations may be easier to find. Actually, it would make sense to start that kind of study already now, because it takes long to finish, and it may help to some extent to confirm or refute the White et al. study. >To put the study in proper proportions it should be noticed that even those >Japanese-Americans who had a higher risk of cognitive decline had it less >than other Americans consuming a standard American diet. So, if tofu really had negative effect on brains of Japanese-Americans, who may be partially protected by the other parts of their diet, by their genes or by both, it could possibly have even worse effect on other Americans consuming a standard American diet. And tofu eating Japanese-Americans don't deserve to have accelerated cognitive decline even if the decline were still slower than among other Americans consuming a standard American diet. SignatureMatti Narkia ::::::: I agree with this guideline. Some healthy foods that the diet ::::::: could include are nuts, fatty fish, tofu, green leafy [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] : cognitive decline even if the decline were still slower than among : other Americans consuming a standard American diet. Actually you deviated from the original subject by starting to talk about brain aging. The orginal poster had other things in his mind. He was interested in loosing weight, lowering heart disease risk, reducing the risk of insulin resistance and kidney stones and preventing benign prostate hyperplacia. To these purposes the consumption of tofu suits well as its overall effects to health are beneficial. Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2001;10(2):159-64. History and characteristics of Okinawan longevity food. Sho H. University of The Air Okinawa Study Center, Japan. Okinawan food culture in the Ryukyu island is one of the world's most interesting culture because its consumers have the longest life expectancies and low disability rates. It is a product of cultural synthesis, with a core of Chinese food culture, inputs through food trade with South-East Asia and the Pacific and strong Japanese influences in eating style and presentation. The Satsamu sweet potato provides the largest part of the energy intake (and contributes to self-sufficiency), there is a wide array of plant foods including seaweed (especially konbu) and soy, and of herbaceous plants, accompanied by fish and pork, and by green tea and kohencha tea. Infusing multiple foodstuff and drinking the broth is characteristic. Raw sugar is eaten. The concept that 'food is medicine' and a high regard accorded medical practice are also intrinsic of Okinawan culture. Again, food-centered and ancestral festivities keeep the health dimensions well-developed. Pork, konbu and tofu (soy bean-curd) are indispensable ingredients in festival menus, and the combination of tofu and seaweed are used everyday. Okinawan food culture is intimately linked with an enduring belief of the system and highly developed social structure and network. PMID: 11710358 http://tinyurl.com/y7ml89 It should also be mentioned that the _healthy_ life expectancy_ of Okinawans is the highest in the world. SignatureJuhana >: So, if tofu really had negative effect on brains of >: Japanese-Americans, who may be partially protected by the other parts [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Actually you deviated from the original subject by starting to talk about >brain aging. And for a good reason. When food items are recommended, their potential serious side effects should also be mentioned, when there is some evidence that such effects may exist. >The orginal poster had other things in his mind. He was >interested in loosing weight, lowering heart disease risk, reducing the risk >of insulin resistance and kidney stones and preventing benign prostate >hyperplacia. To these purposes the consumption of tofu suits well as its >overall effects to health are beneficial. Possibly, although the potential benefits may be much smaller than previously thought. And are the possible small benefits for the heart and other organs worth the trouble, if you cause irreversible damage to your brain? As for the benefits, this recent evaluation by AHA suggests that they may not be that great after all: Sacks FM, Lichtenstein A, Van Horn L, Harris W, Kris-Etherton P, Winston M; American Heart Association Nutrition Committee. Soy protein, isoflavones, and cardiovascular health: an American Heart Association Science Advisory for professionals from the Nutrition Committee. Circulation. 2006 Feb 21;113(7):1034-44. Epub 2006 Jan 17. PMID: 16418439 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/113/7/1034> (full text) Below its abstract: "Soy protein and isoflavones (phytoestrogens) have gained considerable attention for their potential role in improving risk factors for cardiovascular disease. This scientific advisory assesses the more recent work published on soy protein and its component isoflavones. In the majority of 22 randomized trials, isolated soy protein with isoflavones, as compared with milk or other proteins, decreased LDL cholesterol concentrations; the average effect was &3%. This reduction is very small relative to the large amount of soy protein tested in these studies, averaging 50 g, about half the usual total daily protein intake. No significant effects on HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoprotein(a), or blood pressure were evident. Among 19 studies of soy isoflavones, the average effect on LDL cholesterol and other lipid risk factors was nil. Soy protein and isoflavones have not been shown to lessen vasomotor symptoms of menopause, and results are mixed with regard to soy's ability to slow postmenopausal bone loss. The efficacy and safety of soy isoflavones for preventing or treating cancer of the breast, endometrium, and prostate are not established; evidence from clinical trials is meager and cautionary with regard to a possible adverse effect. For this reason, use of isoflavone supplements in food or pills is not recommended. Thus, earlier research indicating that soy protein has clinically important favorable effects as compared with other proteins has not been confirmed. In contrast, many soy products should be beneficial to cardiovascular and overall health because of their high content of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, vitamins, and minerals and low content of saturated fat." >Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2001;10(2):159-64. >History and characteristics of Okinawan longevity food. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >http://tinyurl.com/y7ml89 What is this supposed to prove? That tofu was the reason for the health and longevity of Okinawans? I don't think so. As for the above abstract it could as well be pork, which according to the abstract is an important part of Okinawan diet. Most probable explanation is however the combination of their good genes, exercise and diet as whole taking into consideration also that they didn't overeat, but practised a certain kind of calorie restriction. This abstract gives no clue whether tofu has been a beneficial, neutral or harmful factor in the Okinawa diet. >It should also be mentioned that the _healthy_ life expectancy_ of Okinawans >is the highest in the world. It used to be, but how does that relate to the topic at hand? And what I've heard Okinawa no longer leads men's life expectancy statistics even in Japan. The new number one prefecture is Nagano (where the Winter Olympics were held in 1998), and Okinawa has fallen to 26th place among Japan's prefectures. Too much tofu is starting to show its effects? ;-). Here's a link related to this: Okinawans losing secret to long life July 01 2003 <http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1> "... Prefectural health officials got a shock when data showed that longevity for Okinawan men had fallen to 26th among Japan's 47 prefectures in 2000 from fourth in 1995 and first in 1985. Okinawan women still rank first, but Suzuki is betting they will lose the top slot when the next census is conducted in 2005. ..." SignatureMatti Narkia ::: So, if tofu really had negative effect on brains of ::: Japanese-Americans, who may be partially protected by the other [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : potential serious side effects should also be mentioned, when there is : some evidence that such effects may exist. You have been able to present only one dubious epidemiological study which was not adjusted for important confounding factors like vitamin B12 intake. On the contrary there are plenty of studies supporting the consumption of tofu and other soy products. :: The orginal poster had other things in his mind. He was :: interested in loosing weight, lowering heart disease risk, reducing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : Possibly, although the potential benefits may be much smaller than : previously thought. Here we agree. : And are the possible small benefits for the heart : and other organs worth the trouble, if you cause irreversible damage : to your brain? Still this Okinawan diet including tofu is much better in preventing even brain aging and dementia than standard Western diets. : As for the benefits, this recent evaluation by AHA suggests that they : may not be that great after all: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] : fiber, vitamins, and minerals and low content of saturated : fat." I am aware of this. :: Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2001;10(2):159-64. :: History and characteristics of Okinawan longevity food. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] : abstract it could as well be pork, which according to the abstract is : an important part of Okinawan diet. Pork is consumed as a festive food, yes. :-) But as the saying goes, it is not important what you eat between Christmas and New Year but what you eat between New Year and Christmas. As the abstract states, tofu is eaten daily. : Most probable explanation is : however the combination of their good genes, That is not likely. There are emigration studies showing that when the Okinawans move to Brazil or to the U.S. their risk of diabetes and CHD increase. : exercise and diet as : whole taking into consideration also that they didn't overeat, but : practised a certain kind of calorie restriction. This abstract gives : no clue whether tofu has been a beneficial, neutral or harmful factor : in the Okinawa diet. Didn't you notice that tofu is eaten on a daily basis? It can hardly be harmful if Okinawans achieve one of the longest life expectancies. :: It should also be mentioned that the _healthy_ life expectancy_ of :: Okinawans is the highest in the world. : : It used to be, but how does that relate to the topic at hand? It relates to the question of possible cognitive decline. They comsume a diet high in tofu and still/hence they have an exceptionally high healthy life expentancy. : And what : I've heard Okinawa no longer leads men's life expectancy statistics [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : July 01 2003 : <http://www.iol.co.za/index.php click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1> : "... Prefectural health officials got a shock when data showed : that longevity for Okinawan men had fallen to 26th among Japan's : 47 prefectures in 2000 from fourth in 1995 and first in 1985. : : Okinawan women still rank first, but Suzuki is betting they will : lose the top slot when the next census is conducted in 2005. ..." Yes, I am aware that the Okinawan diet is deteriorating as younger generations eat less tofu and more American fast food. ;-) SignatureJuhana >::: So, if tofu really had negative effect on brains of >::: Japanese-Americans, who may be partially protected by the other [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >You have been able to present only one dubious epidemiological study which >was not adjusted for important confounding factors like vitamin B12 intake. Dubious? This study has been taken very seriously by many researchers including the Finnish professor Herman Adlercreutz, who has been one of the pioneers in the research of soy and phytoestrogens. At a conference some years ago he commented White et al. study by saying: "I am myself frightened a little bit by all of this. There is so much we don't know." I have already commented your vitamin B12 remark. What part of it you did not understand? Ethnic Japanese are typically not vegetarians, so they don't usually have major vitamin B12 issues, tofu does not reduce vitamin B12 levels, and vitamin B12 rich foods had no (inverse or otherwise) association with cognitive decline in the study. >On the contrary there are plenty of studies supporting the consumption of >tofu and other soy products. You are going in circles, repeating yourself, and still not producing any evidence contradicting White et al. study. We been through the possible benefits of soy, which are apparently not great, and not worth the risk of sacrificing part of the brain function. A couple quotes related to this from the article: Too much tofu induces brain aging, study shows A Hawaii research team says high consumption of the soy product by a group of men lowered mental abilities <http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html> "The Pacific Health Research Institute researcher urged caution at a recent conference in Washington as scientists from around the world discussed the role of soy products in the prevention and treatment of disease. The symposium was sponsored by giant soybean growing and processing firms such as Archer Daniels Midland and DuPont. The largely unregulated food supplements industry is preparing to step up sales, claiming that isoflavones, plant chemicals found in high concentrations in soybeans, offer "natural" cures for breast cancer, osteoporosis, prostate cancer, heart disease, menopausal "hot flashes" and other chronic conditions. Negative conclusions But, White said in an interview, "The majority of scientists said the data they were talking about for beneficial effects on health is very weak" and doesn't really support health claims for soy foods. [...] Mark Messina, a soy foods expert and former researcher with the Diet and Cancer Branch of the National Cancer Institute, told the scientists, "It's simply not possible as yet to draw any conclusions about soy consumption and cancer prevention, but further research is certainly warranted." Companies that make money from soy products are pushing hard to have people think of them as "perfect food," White said "But if we're talking about soy foods containing substances that have effects on health that aren't nutrients, that are not vitamins, or fat, but change how cells operate, they're acting as drugs act. And the way we think of them should be how we think about drugs."" >:: The orginal poster had other things in his mind. He was >:: interested in loosing weight, lowering heart disease risk, reducing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Here we agree. So if you agree that the potential benefits are small, why the urge to push tofu or other soy products, when there could be potential risks involved? As White says in my article quote above: "But if we're talking about soy foods containing substances that have effects on health that aren't nutrients, that are not vitamins, or fat, but change how cells operate, they're acting as drugs act. And the way we think of them should be how we think about drugs." The Cretan traditional Mediterranean diet does not include soy, and Cretans were enjoying spectacularly good health on that diet. Why to take risks by eating foods that act like drugs, when we could do very well without them? >: And are the possible small benefits for the heart >: and other organs worth the trouble, if you cause irreversible damage >: to your brain? > >Still this Okinawan diet including tofu is much better in preventing even >brain aging and dementia than standard Western diets. Almost anything is better than standard Western diets, and even Okinawans could perhaps do better without tofu, we simply don't know one way or other. Japanese-Americans in White et al. study did. >: As for the benefits, this recent evaluation by AHA suggests that they >: may not be that great after all: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >: milk or other proteins, decreased LDL cholesterol >: concentrations; the average effect was &3%. [...] Any particular reason why you left out this middle part of the abstract? This reduction is very small relative to the large amount of soy protein tested in these studies, averaging 50 g, about half the usual total daily protein intake. No significant effects on HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoprotein(a), or blood pressure were evident. Among 19 studies of soy isoflavones, the average effect on LDL cholesterol and other lipid risk factors was nil. Soy protein and isoflavones have not been shown to lessen vasomotor symptoms of menopause, and results are mixed with regard to soy's ability to slow postmenopausal bone loss. The efficacy and safety of soy isoflavones for preventing or treating cancer of the breast, endometrium, and prostate are not established; evidence from clinical trials is meager and cautionary with regard to a possible adverse effect. For this reason, use of isoflavone supplements in food or pills is not recommended. Thus, earlier research indicating that soy protein has clinically important favorable effects as compared with other proteins has not been confirmed. >: In contrast, many soy >: products should be beneficial to cardiovascular and overall >: health because of their high content of polyunsaturated fats, >: fiber, vitamins, and minerals and low content of saturated >: fat." [snip] >: Most probable explanation is >: however the combination of their good genes, > >That is not likely. There are emigration studies showing that when the >Okinawans move to Brazil or to the U.S. their risk of diabetes and CHD >increase. Some references would be nice. According to the Okinawa Centenarian Study <http://okinawaprogram.com/study.html> they do have the genetic patterns favoring good health and longevity as I mentioned in my earlier message. If the enviromental changes such as emigration increase the disease risk of emigrating Okinawans, as your forthcoming references may or may not show (?), the question remains, will it raise to the level of the natives in their new country, or does it still stay lower? If the latter is true, the genetic factor may have a role. >: exercise and diet as >: whole taking into consideration also that they didn't overeat, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Didn't you notice that tofu is eaten on a daily basis? It can hardly be >harmful if Okinawans achieve one of the longest life expectancies. No longer. Are you intentionally using wrong the present tense or is this just a continuing lapsus linguae? I do think that it's possible that good genes, otherwise healthy diet, calorie restriction, and regular exercise could substantially offset any potential harmful effects of tofu on Okinawans. But that's no consolation for people with different ethnic origin and life style. >:: It should also be mentioned that the _healthy_ life expectancy_ of >:: Okinawans is the highest in the world. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Yes, I am aware that the Okinawan diet is deteriorating as younger >generations eat less tofu and more American fast food. ;-) Youre surely have some references about this? Very young generations have not yet had much chance to affect life expectancy statistics, and I'm not aware that diet in Okinawa would be deteriorating any faster that in other parts of Japan (it could, but I'm not aware of it :-)), yet especially men's life expectancy in Okinawa has collapsed in comparison to the most of the other parts of Japan. As we remember soy appears to reduce brain-derived neurotrophic factor in male, but not in female rats ... ;-) SignatureMatti Narkia > Why to >take risks by eating foods that act like drugs, when we could do very >well without them? Surely all foods have drug-like effects to some extent? jack Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:04:50 +0900 in article >> Why to >>take risks by eating foods that act like drugs, when we could do very >>well without them? > >Surely all foods have drug-like effects to some extent? Not to the extent (for example) soy foods do. Soy phytoestrogens are endocrine disruptors, which may have beneficial and adverse effects, just like drugs. -Matti Narkia >So if you agree that the potential benefits are small, why the urge to >push tofu or other soy products, when there could be potential risks [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >take risks by eating foods that act like drugs, when we could do very >well without them? Perhaps this is a good opportunity to remind about the well known ethical principle "First, do no harm" (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere>) taught in medical school to all medical students (but remembering at the same time, that sometimes doing nothing also causes harm). SignatureMatti Narkia >.... Okinawan diet. Most probable explanation is >however the combination of their good genes, exercise and diet as >whole taking into consideration also that they didn't overeat, but >practised a certain kind of calorie restriction. I just heard an interesting radio programme about aging. They were saying that the Okinawans used to eat all they wanted (and still do, apparently). The difference was that the foods they ate previously consisted of less-energy-dense foods with more water and fibre content. Their more recent diet, which is resulting in many fat Okinawans, is including refined foods such as white rice and even "fast foods". As most humans are happier eating as much as they like, it seems that a good ploy is to choose less energy dense foods. I suggest that this figure be added to labels. Yes, I know that foods are labelled with calories per 100 grams (at least they are in Australia) but I'm suggesting that instead of burying it in a table, a large number be stamped on packaging from 0 to 10, where 10 would apply to refined fats and oils (the most energy dense foods). Anyone heard of this, or think it might be a good idea? It always seems to me that the elephant in the loungeroom (wrt diet and health) is too much energy. Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:45:15 +0900 in article >>.... Okinawan diet. Most probable explanation is >>however the combination of their good genes, exercise and diet as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >consisted of less-energy-dense foods with more water and fibre >content. Perhaps one of their blessing in disguise was that their food was unappetising, which probably made calorie restriction easier. From Okinawans losing secret to long life <http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1>: "Everything we eat is unappetising. We never had much money, that's just the way it was," said 83-year-old Yoshi Kagami." They for example boiled pork for hours, the result was the loss of almost all fat, which perhaps made the pork healthier, but may be also less appetising. Goya a.k.a. bitter melon a.k.a. bitter gourd (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_melon>) was an integral part of the diet and consumed often. It was probably one of the healthiest food items in their diet. Bitter melon is an acquired taste, but I like it and eat it now and then. I would eat it more often, but fresh ones are expensive and difficult to get here in Finland; canned ones are cheaper and easier to get, but perhaps not as healthy as the fresh ones. But because Okinawan diet self-claimedly was unappetising, it may not be willingly adapted by western people, for whom a healthy diet like Cretan traditional Mediterranean diet may be more appealing. -Matti Narkia : Perhaps one of their blessing in disguise was that their food was : unappetising, which probably made calorie restriction easier. From : : Okinawans losing secret to long life <http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1>: : "Everything we eat is unappetising. We never had much money, that's : just the way it was," said 83-year-old Yoshi Kagami." From the same page you cited: "Consuming large quantities of tofu, which contains phytoestrogen, a hormone found to lower the incidence of breast cancer, prostate cancer and heart disease, also seems to have helped [achieving longevity]." http://www.iol.co.za:80/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1 SignatureJuhana >: Perhaps one of their blessing in disguise was that their food was >: unappetising, which probably made calorie restriction easier. From [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >http://www.iol.co.za:80/index.php?click_id=31&art_id=qw1057026241418B241&set_id=1 That's pure speculation, perhaps based on soy's perceived effects (now found to be rather small) on the diseases mentioned. There are no studies about tofu's possible effects on the longevity of Okinawans. SignatureMatti Narkia >Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:45:15 +0900 in article > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "Everything we eat is unappetising. We never had much money, that's > just the way it was," said 83-year-old Yoshi Kagami." Not to necessarily disagree with you Matti, but merely to put another slant on things, I guess most diets are an acquired taste, but the more energy-concentrated the more popular, such that McDonalds will win over boiled brown rice, and vegetables. >They for example boiled pork for hours, the result was the loss of >almost all fat, which perhaps made the pork healthier, but may be also >less appetising Oh, I don't know. I personally love boiled pork in jelly (brawn) >Goya a.k.a. bitter melon a.k.a. bitter gourd >(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_melon>) was an integral part of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >willingly adapted by western people, for whom a healthy diet like Cretan >traditional Mediterranean diet may be more appealing. Yet you like one of their staples? Seems to me that most folk like what they are used to, but it is easy to get used to high energy dense, cheap, fast food. Go figure :=) jack :: .... Okinawan diet. Most probable explanation is :: however the combination of their good genes, exercise and diet as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : "fast foods". As most humans are happier eating as much as they like, : it seems that a good ploy is to choose less energy dense foods. The energy density is just one factor. There are many factors affecting the longevity of Okinawans: low energy density, low glycemic index, high intake of flavonoids, avoidance of saturated fats, low intake of animal foods, getting ample amount of omega-3 fats, good social support, exercise, spiritituality, sunny location and appreciation of old people and old age. If you want to know more about their diet and lifestyle I suggest that you read the Okinawa Program book written by the lead researchers of Okinawan centenarian studies. http://tinyurl.com/taqmd SignatureJuhana spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >As most humans are happier eating as much as they like, >it seems that a good ploy is to choose less energy dense foods. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >apply to refined fats and oils (the most energy dense foods). >Anyone heard of this, or think it might be a good idea? Energy density is talked about all the time, but there is little support for choosing foods according to their energy density. The evidence that we are happy eating a particular weight of food is non-existent. There are some healthy very high energy-density foods, such as olive oil or nuts, and some healthy low-energy-density foods, such as some high in fiber. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu : spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : oil or nuts, and some healthy low-energy-density foods, such as some : high in fiber. I think that the concept of energy density makes sense if it is used as a pair with nutrient density. I general it makes sense to eat nutrient dense foods instead of energy dense foods. But there are exceptions of this rule, as you mentioned. There are some studies to support eating nutrient dense foods and avoiding energy dense foods. Eating energy dense foods has been associated with weight gain in some studies. On the other hand eating nutrient dense foods is associated with longevity in elderly people. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >associated with weight gain in some studies. On the other hand eating >nutrient dense foods is associated with longevity in elderly people. Density refers to the amount of something, nutrient or energy here, per unit weight. I remain unconvinced that the concept of "density" with respect to foods in the diet has any merit whatsoever. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu : "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in : part: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] : per unit weight. I remain unconvinced that the concept of "density" : with respect to foods in the diet has any merit whatsoever. I suggest that you get acquainted with The World Health Organization WHO report 'Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Diseases'. The concepts of 'nutrient-dense' and 'energy-dense' are used frequently in the report. Nutrient dense foods are to be favored and energy dense foods limited. http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_916.pdf SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in >: part: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_916.pdf The concepts are used by nutritionists everywhere. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in >: part: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_916.pdf I will also say that I believe that the issue for many people is to increase nutrient content per portion or meal and minimize energy content per portion or meal, and not necessarily to rely on WEIGHT consumed. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >"Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >weight. I remain unconvinced that the concept of "density" with respect to >foods in the diet has any merit whatsoever. It's just that one of the things that satisfies in a meal is stomach fullness, and so the less energy you ingest to achieve this, the better. Assuming you are getting a balanced diet. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>"Juhana Harju" <spamshantigiriorama.removespam@gmail.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >fullness, and so the less energy you ingest to achieve this, the >better. Assuming you are getting a balanced diet. jack But there is no evidence that weight is what makes you feel full. Volume has some evidence in its favor, but not weight. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >But there is no evidence that weight is what makes you feel full. Volume has >some evidence in its favor, but not weight. Aren't weight and volume much the same for most foods? What food varies much from the specific gravity of water? As weight is easier to determine with solids, that is what is usually used, but yes, volume would be more accurate if such accuracy was all that necessary here. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >used, but yes, volume would be more accurate if such accuracy was all >that necessary here. jack They are very different. Compare a liquid (milk, olive oil, tea) with dry foods like bread or oat bran. Weight is not the same as volume. There is no basis for the claims made for energy and nutrient density. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >>>But there is no evidence that weight is what makes you feel full. Volume has >>>some evidence in its favor, but not weight. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >foods like bread or oat bran. Weight is not the same as volume. There is no >basis for the claims made for energy and nutrient density. Huh? When the air is expelled as it is in the stomach? Seems to me that you *want* there to be no basis for the claims made for energy and nutrient density. Elementary physiology states that stomach fullness is one of the main satiety signals, and as I've shown that volume/weight of foods is much the same in the stomach, I'm afraid that the conclusion must be reached that energy density of food (overall, not minor components) is quite important in one's daily calorie intake. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>>>But there is no evidence that weight is what makes you feel full. Volume has >>>>some evidence in its favor, but not weight. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Seems to me that you *want* there to be no basis for the claims made >for energy and nutrient density. No. I have no stake in this at all, except as one commenting on what I see as a common error made by nutritionists. >Elementary physiology states that stomach fullness is one of the main >satiety signals, and as I've shown that volume/weight of foods is much >the same in the stomach Not so. Some foods increase markedly in volume in the stomach while others do not. Compare milk with oats. Stomach fullness won't be achieved by swallowing a cup of lead pellets, but will by swallowing that volume and much lower weight of oats. The energy density and nutrient density concepts need work. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >No. I have no stake in this at all, except as one commenting on what I see >as a common error made by nutritionists. I've yet to see this error. >>Elementary physiology states that stomach fullness is one of the main >>satiety signals, and as I've shown that volume/weight of foods is much >>the same in the stomach > >Not so. Some foods increase markedly in volume in the stomach while others >do not. Compare milk with oats. I suspect my milk and oats changes very little in the stomach from when it is popped in my mouth. Do you eat dry oats? Funny, I would have considered this most unapetising. >Stomach fullness won't be achieved by swallowing a cup of lead pellets, but >will by swallowing that volume and much lower weight of oats. Fair enough, but do you mind if I continue on my diet including cooked oats, and not lead shot as you appear to enjoy? >The energy density and nutrient density concepts need work. Well, yes, if you are going to gorge on lead shot and dry oats :=) Jack >I think that the concept of energy density makes sense if it is used as a >pair with nutrient density. I general it makes sense to eat nutrient dense [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >associated with weight gain in some studies. On the other hand eating >nutrient dense foods is associated with longevity in elderly people. I agree, except for the confusion in the word nutrient. The most important nutrient is energy, surely. jack > I agree, except for the confusion in the word nutrient. The most > important nutrient is energy, surely. jack Nutrients are those elements from food and drink that perform a sustaining or metabolic function when taken inside our bodies. If we gage importance of nutrients by how long we can survive without serious harm, water tops the list, then those that supply energy, followed by protein. SignatureRon >> I agree, except for the confusion in the word nutrient. The most >> important nutrient is energy, surely. jack [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >serious harm, water tops the list, then those that supply energy, >followed by protein. Agreed, although there is a vast difference between maintaining good health and starving to death :=) My point was aimed mainly at some folk who forget that energy is critical to the body. Either too much, or too little. jack >Energy density is talked about all the time, but there is little support for >choosing foods according to their energy density. The evidence that we are >happy eating a particular weight of food is non-existent. The weight that distends our stomachs to satisfaction? Surely that is a basic indicator of satiety. And if so, the less energy you use to fill it, the better (as far as energy goes). Luckily, many energy diffuse foods are high in other nutrients and fibre. >There are some healthy very high energy-density foods, such as olive oil or >nuts, and some healthy low-energy-density foods, such as some high in fiber. Nuts are fine, but why on earth eat a refined oil? Why not eat olives, if you like that? And oranges are better than orange juice. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>Energy density is talked about all the time, but there is little support for >>choosing foods according to their energy density. The evidence that we are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >fill it, the better (as far as energy goes). Luckily, many energy >diffuse foods are high in other nutrients and fibre. You are arguing for low energy per unit volume, not energy density. And the evidence for either is almost non-existent. >>There are some healthy very high energy-density foods, such as olive oil or >>nuts, and some healthy low-energy-density foods, such as some high in fiber. > >Nuts are fine, but why on earth eat a refined oil? Why not eat olives, >if you like that? And oranges are better than orange juice. Olive oil is wonderful on my salad, whereas olives don't do much. I also can't saute anything in olives. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >You are arguing for low energy per unit volume, not energy density. And the >evidence for either is almost non-existent. Same thing, in reality. Does not stomach fullness trigger satiety? >>>There are some healthy very high energy-density foods, such as olive oil or >>>nuts, and some healthy low-energy-density foods, such as some high in fiber. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Olive oil is wonderful on my salad, whereas olives don't do much. So you like a refined oil. Fair enough, so long as it comes within your calorie limit, and you get the nutrients of the fruit pulp from elswhere. I personally love a few olives in my salads. >I also can't saute anything in olives. But you could use a non-stick pan if you must cook this way. I would throw in a few crushed, pitted olives, perhaps, but so long as the conditions above are met, there's not much wrong with it in my view. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Same thing, in reality. >Does not stomach fullness trigger satiety? Fullness is determined by volume, not weight. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >>>You are arguing for low energy per unit volume, not energy density. And the >>>evidence for either is almost non-existent. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Fullness is determined by volume, not weight. And as I've demonstrated that these are much the same for all foods when macerated and de-aired in the stomach, you must come to agree with me that energy density (by volume or by weight) is an important factor in how many calories a person will consume in a day. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>>>You are arguing for low energy per unit volume, not energy density. And the >>>>evidence for either is almost non-existent. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >with me that energy density (by volume or by weight) is an important >factor in how many calories a person will consume in a day. I don't think weight and volume are equivalent for macerated, de-aired foods. Nor do I think that energy density has much to do with how many calories are consumed in a day. I'm going to leave it that we disagree. I'll also credit you with being on the side of the majority. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I don't think weight and volume are equivalent for macerated, de-aired >foods. So can you give me an exception to this generalisation? Oh. that's right, you apparently like lead shot for breakfast :=) > Nor do I think that energy density has much to do with how many >calories are consumed in a day. So you would be a follower of Chung's 2 lb diet then? Energy density hasn't much to do with it, so 2 lbs per day will lose you weight? >I'm going to leave it that we disagree. I'll also credit you with being on >the side of the majority. Well I can actually see advantages and disadvantages of the 2 lb diet. If you stick to average energy density foods, it certainly has the element of simplicity, but humans will surely end up eating 2 lb of chocolate daily, i would guess :=) jack [...] > So you would be a follower of Chung's 2 lb diet then? > Energy density hasn't much to do with it, so 2 lbs per day will lose > you weight? [...] > Well I can actually see advantages and disadvantages of the 2 lb diet. > If you stick to average energy density foods, it certainly has the > element of simplicity, but humans will surely end up eating 2 lb of > chocolate daily, i would guess :=) I don't think so. But they would end up not eating much vegetables, and that's bad. >[...] >> So you would be a follower of Chung's 2 lb diet then? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I don't think so. But they would end up not eating much vegetables, and >that's bad. Ayup, two pounds per day of a wholesome varied diet would probably work wonders, but is that any easier to stick to than any other restrictive diet? jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >> Nor do I think that energy density has much to do with how many >>calories are consumed in a day. > >So you would be a follower of Chung's 2 lb diet then? >Energy density hasn't much to do with it, so 2 lbs per day will lose >you weight? No. The reason I don't like the nutrition arguments being based on density is because I don't think weight has much to do with anything (except having a positive correlation with volume). So I certainly don't think a diet based on weight makes any sense. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >a positive correlation with volume). So I certainly don't think a diet based >on weight makes any sense. That's fine. I have not seen any deviation much from a specific gravity of 1 for foods as eaten, and so for me, weight and volume are interchangeable, and for me, stomach fullness is an important signal for satiety, so I will continue to regard trying to aim for low energy dense foods as a valuable adjunct to good healthy nutrition. jack spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >>spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >will continue to regard trying to aim for low energy dense foods as a >valuable adjunct to good healthy nutrition. jack So "a (macerated) pint's a pound the world around," huh? I have to say I don't know. I've never looked inside and measured. But, you know, it may be that volume of the stuff in the stomach isn't the whole story in terms of how much we eat. You think? -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >spamfree@spam.heaven wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >So "a (macerated) pint's a pound the world around," huh? Nope, only if your pint is 16 fluid ounces. Ours is 20. And we have graduated to metrics :=) But yes, a kg is roughly a litre (for all practical dietary purposes) >I have to say I don't know. I've never looked inside and measured. > >But, you know, it may be that volume of the stuff in the stomach isn't the >whole story in terms of how much we eat. You think? Which is why I said it was one of the main signals of satiety. Another one being glucose levels. jack [...] > On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 03:05:50 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> >>You are arguing for low energy per unit volume, not energy density. And the >>evidence for either is almost non-existent. > Same thing, in reality. > Does not stomach fullness trigger satiety? Yes, but there is more than that. Satiety is a complex phenomenon. >>Olive oil is wonderful on my salad, whereas olives don't do much. > > So you like a refined oil. I guess he means "extra virgin olive oil", which is not refined. [...] >>I also can't saute anything in olives. > > But you could use a non-stick pan if you must cook this way. [...] There is more in food than nutrients. Otherwise you could just eat "balanced" kibbles, like a cat. ;-) SignatureEnrico C My new email address: http://www.x-privat.org/sigmail/sig-5ace6.png >[...] >> On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 03:05:50 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Yes, but there is more than that. Satiety is a complex phenomenon. Sorry, I'm not trying to say it is the only thing. Blood sugar is another important trigger, but stomach fullness is surely up there as an important trigger. >>>Olive oil is wonderful on my salad, whereas olives don't do much. >> >> So you like a refined oil. > >I guess he means "extra virgin olive oil", which is not refined. Of course it is. Taking the fruit pulp away is refining. >>>I also can't saute anything in olives. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >There is more in food than nutrients. Otherwise you could just eat >"balanced" kibbles, like a cat. ;-) You mean pleasure, I guess. Well I couldn't agree more, but it is surprising what you can get used to and enjoy immensely. There are many staples in other parts of the world that are very unappealing to foreigners until they get used to it. For instance, I use to love lots of salt as a child, but as an adult, I sometimes cannot eat KFC on the odd occasion that it is offered because it is just so damned salty. The Japanese taste is for much more salt than average westerners. Some inland primitive folk make do with almost NO salt. They do fine, saltwise, but surely would gag on the mere tast of a typical western mouthful. Just a further thought on your comment here, pleasure is what is getting us into so much health trouble. Empty, concentrated calories are apparently very appealing to many folk when it is available, and so perhaps a middle road should be aimed for. Less pleasure and more stoicism. It is surprising what ingenuity can bring out in the plainest of fare. jack >>[...] >>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 03:05:50 GMT, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@alum.mit.edu> <..snip..> >>>>Olive oil is wonderful on my salad, whereas olives don't do much. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Of course it is. Taking the fruit pulp away is refining. Well, it's cold-pressed olive juice. I guess you could call it "refined olive", sort of, if you really want to..., not "refined oil" though, as the oil that comes from the process is not subsequently "refined" in any way. On the contrary, the olive oil labeled just as "olive oil" (not "extra virgin...") is a refined oil with some virgin or extra virgin oil added. [...] > You mean pleasure, I guess. Well I couldn't agree more, but it is > surprising what you can get used to and enjoy immensely. There are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > saltwise, but surely would gag on the mere tast of a typical western > mouthful. Righto. That's why it's important to refer to local traditions and to individual tastes, imho, not just to calories and stuff... :-) > Just a further thought on your comment here, pleasure is what is > getting us into so much health trouble. Empty, concentrated calories > are appar |
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