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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / December 2006

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TC - 12 Dec 2006 17:55 GMT
http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061212/COL0803/6121203
07/1292/health


'No trans fat' doesn't always mean healthy

By Kathy Warwick
kwarwick@canufly.net

New York City Bans Trans Fat In Restaurants!" This was a big headline
last week, and the media is buzzing about the move by the New York City
Board of Health.

As a nutrition professional, I can agree trans fats will raise the
level of bad cholesterol and lower the level of good cholesterol in the
blood. We are all aware high cholesterol levels can increase the risk
of heart disease. On the other hand, I think the Health Department may
have missed the boat if its intention was to decrease rates of obesity
in the city and impact health care costs.

Restaurants will be asked to replace the trans fats in their menus with
more heart-healthy fats such as peanut oil, canola oil or olive oil.
Even these heart-healthy oils contain a lot of calories - in fact, the
same number of calories per measure as the trans fats. One tablespoon
of any oil has 120 calories. Therefore, restaurants can still serve
very high-calorie, high-fat menu items. Obesity is caused by taking in
more calories than we burn up with exercise and daily activity, no
matter where we get the extra calories. If we eat too much organic
health food and we don't exercise, we will gain weight over time.

Most cookies, crackers, baked goods, chips and snack foods have been
produced with trans fat because it helps keep these foods from getting
stale on the grocery store shelf.

Now manufacturers are looking for a fat to substitute for trans fat in
these products. Many are using other saturated fats such as coconut
oil, palm oil or real butter. Because they contain saturated fats,
these snacks can raise your cholesterol levels and may have lots of
calories. The average consumer sees the packaging with "No Trans Fat"
in bold letters and assumes he or she can eat as much of this "healthy"
snack food as desired.

One New York restaurant owner was quoted as saying, "In this country,
there are so many obese people. It is really a disgrace. When I was
growing up in France, my mother never gave me a French fry. We don't
have a fryer here in the restaurant, we just saute our potatoes in real
butter."

This statement just goes to prove how confused everyone really is when
it comes to the fat debate. Real butter is a saturated fat. If I cook
all my low-calorie vegetables in butter or bacon grease, they become
high-calorie and can raise my cholesterol, but they can be labeled "no
trans fat."

When we take in more calories (from any source) than we burn up, we
will gain weight. Obesity is a risk factor for diabetes, heart disease
and cancer. Banning trans fat from restaurant menus will do little, if
anything, to decrease obesity. Until individuals take some personal
responsibility for cutting calories and increasing activity, obesity
levels will continue to rise. Waiting for the government to legislate
us into good health is pure folly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathy Warwick is a registered dietitian, certified diabetes educator
and nutrition consultant. Write to her in care of HealthScene, The
Clarion-Ledger, Box 40, Jackson MS 39205-0040 or e-mail,
kwarwick@canufly.net.

*********

Interesting. The restaurant owner says clearly that here in the US,
there are so many obese people. Then he says that they don't eat french
fries (a lot of carbs), but they eat a lot of food, including potatoes,
sauteed in butter. He did not mention that they don't eat all their
meals with a half gallon jug of hfcs soda.

So the french eat a high animal-fat diet with little refined carbs and
they are less obese and more healthy than the americans eating
generally lower fat and higher carb diets.

And she tries to infer that the restaurant owner is confused about
calories. Calories mean squat in the face of a diet full of highly
processed crap carbs and fake fats.

TC
Noway2 - 13 Dec 2006 01:39 GMT
> http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061212/COL0803/6121203
07/1292/health

>
> 'No trans fat' doesn't always mean healthy

<Article snipped>

> *********
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> TC

Until such time that there is real change in the attitudes of people,
there will continue to be the search for the magic bullet for weight
loss or cause of all the health problems.  The bullet du jour is
apparently trans fats.
NoOption5L@aol.com - 13 Dec 2006 03:18 GMT
> Interesting. The restaurant owner says clearly that here in the US,
> there are so many obese people. Then he says that they don't eat french
> fries (a lot of carbs),

And lots of fat.

> but they eat a lot of food, including potatoes,
> sauteed in butter. He did not mention that they don't eat all their
> meals with a half gallon jug of hfcs soda.

Soda, as we all know, is empty calories.  Calories that could/should be
comsumed by eating healthful foods.

> So the french eat a high animal-fat diet with little refined carbs and
> they are less obese and more healthy than the americans eating
> generally lower fat and higher carb diets.

Be careful about connecting dots that aren't there.  The French do many
things quite different from us obese Americans.

http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/101/106436.htm?pagenumber=1

> And she tries to infer that the restaurant owner is confused about
> calories. Calories mean squat in the face of a diet full of highly
> processed crap carbs and fake fats.

Calories mean everything.  It's all about how many you take in as
opposed to how many you burn.  

Patrick
monty1945@lycos.com - 13 Dec 2006 05:00 GMT
Patrick:

Farmers determined long ago that soy and corn really fattened up their
animals, whereas coconut oil kept them slim.  Have you ever heard of
the phrase, "the corn-fed farmer's daughter?"  This referred to a young
woman who was not slim.  You can do your own experiment with rats and
see for yourself.  Feed one group of rats corn oil at 25-30% of daily
calories vs. another group getting coconut oil at 25-30%.  See what
happens.

As to the claims being made by various "experts:" whether something
like coconut oil raises your cholesterol or LDL a little is totally
irrelevant.  Even AHA spokesman Dr. Richard Stein pointed out that only
oxidized cholesterol is dangerous, and saturated fatty acids do not
oxidize cholesterol.  Unsaturated fatty acids can, especially the want
they are consumed by Americans.  This is a major problem, along with
cooking meat.  Eggs, though high in cholesterol, appear to be
reasonably healthy if boiled.  Enig and Fallon point out that freezing
meat for more than 2 weeks, then eating it raw is best.  However, there
is still a lot of iron, unsaturated fatty acids, and an amino acid
profile that is sub-optimal, at best.
GMCarter - 13 Dec 2006 10:19 GMT
>Patrick:
>
>Farmers determined long ago that soy and corn really fattened up their
>animals, whereas coconut oil kept them slim.  Have you ever heard of
>the phrase, "the corn-fed farmer's daughter?"

This may be true but coming from you I do not believe it without any
citation.
dorsy1943 - 13 Dec 2006 14:50 GMT
Monty, what does happen with corn oil vs coconut oil when feeding rats?
There must be cultures which eat coconuts (do they extract the oil and
eat it alone?) as part of a traditional diet and are healthy as far as
they continue their traditional diet.  It also occurs to me that
perhaps these traditional cultures consume a lot of fish. Do you know
which groups of people eat a lot of coconut oil as part of a
traditional diet and remain healthy?

I also have to say again that cows are not only fed corn, but about 15%
protein as a finisher.  They are also kept immobile, doused with
antibiotics and hormones and the males are castrated.  Cows are natural
grazers not corn eaters. They are practically force fed the corn at the
finishing stage.  I bet if you eliminated the hormones, didn't castrate
the males, fed them corn as a small part of their diet and gave them
gym memberships they wouldn't end up so fat.  There are also whole
cultures of people who traditionally eat corn (not corn oil) in some
form as a mainstay of their diet and as long as they eat the corn along
with squash, beans and anything else they forage or trap, are perfectly
healthy and slim.  What else is the corn fed farmer's daughter eating
besides the corn?
Dolores
> Patrick:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> is still a lot of iron, unsaturated fatty acids, and an amino acid
> profile that is sub-optimal, at best.
TC - 13 Dec 2006 15:02 GMT
> Monty, what does happen with corn oil vs coconut oil when feeding rats?
>  There must be cultures which eat coconuts (do they extract the oil and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the males, fed them corn as a small part of their diet and gave them
> gym memberships they wouldn't end up so fat.

Actually cattle are probably a good test group, in that you can be
fairly well assured that their activity levels will remain fairly
constant regardless of what they are fed. And they are fed grains to
fatten them up. I think we can agree that grains are higher in starch
content than grasses. And the are not "kept immobile", they are allowed
to roam and graze at will. And they were fed grains to fatten them up
before the use of hormones became widely practiced. As far as
castrating them is concerned, we can default to only the females and
you will see the same thing, grains = fattening.

TC

> There are also whole
> cultures of people who traditionally eat corn (not corn oil) in some
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> > is still a lot of iron, unsaturated fatty acids, and an amino acid
> > profile that is sub-optimal, at best.
coonskin@amestwp.com - 13 Dec 2006 16:03 GMT
"You can do your own experiment with rats and see for yourself.  Feed
one group of rats corn oil at 25-30% of daily calories vs. another group
getting coconut oil at 25-30%.  See what happens."

This is being done all the time intentionally.  When researchers need
groups of rats with various metabolic disorders upon which to do
research they feed them a high saturated fat diet of 60 percent.  This
has become a standardized diet for this purpose sold by one company.
All the fat in the diet is 100 percent coconut oil.  One strain of rats
responds to this diet by getting diabetes and others various heart
disease related disorders.
NoOption5L@aol.com - 14 Dec 2006 03:24 GMT
> Patrick:

> Farmers determined long ago that soy and corn really fattened up their
> animals, whereas coconut oil kept them slim.  Have you ever heard of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> calories vs. another group getting coconut oil at 25-30%.  See what
> happens.

Corn didn't fatten up the farmer's daughter.  If that were the case,
the Pilgrams would have expirenced a lot of fat native American girls.

> As to the claims being made by various "experts:" whether something
> like coconut oil raises your cholesterol or LDL a little is totally
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is still a lot of iron, unsaturated fatty acids, and an amino acid
> profile that is sub-optimal, at best.

No disrespect, but if I ever get to the point where I'm eating raw
meat/frozen and then thawed meat/only boiled eggs, call the guys in the
white coats and have them bring me over and fit me in one of those
jackets that tie in the back.

Instead, I think people would be MUCH better served, and lifespans
noticeably lengthened, by avoiding all forms of motorized
transportation, living in a home free of any carpeting, paint,
insulation etc., and maybe by staying away from all high-voltage power
lines, cellular transmissions and radar.  (Now who does this?)

Screw that!  I'm going to enjoy life, and food, and continue eating
omeletes, grilled buffalo burgers, soybeans on my salads and corn on
the cob.  

Patrick
MattLB - 14 Dec 2006 13:41 GMT
> As to the claims being made by various "experts:" whether something
> like coconut oil raises your cholesterol or LDL a little is totally
> irrelevant.  Even AHA spokesman Dr. Richard Stein pointed out that only
> oxidized cholesterol is dangerous,

Funny how much stock you put in a statement by a paid spokesman, when
it suits you, but anyone who disagrees with you is an "industry shill".

Raising LDL levels isn't irrelevant either. If you understood what the
process leading to LDL oxidation and atherosclerosis was you'd know
that the more LDL there is, the more chance it's going to end up
oxidised and lodged in an artery wall.

> and saturated fatty acids do not
> oxidize cholesterol.

Your evidence for this? Coconut oil oxidizes DNA:

Oxidative stress related DNA adducts in the liver of female rats fed
with sunflower-, rapeseed-, olive- or coconut oil supplemented diets.

"1,N(6)-ethenodeoxyadenosine (etheno-dA)...were determined as markers
for DNA-damage derived from lipid peroxidation products and markers for
oxidative stress."
"Highest adducts levels of etheno-dA (133 +/- 113 adducts/10(9) parent
bases) were found in coconut oil diet (lowest content of linoleic
acid)."

What's your molecular level explanation for that?

> and an amino acid
> profile that is sub-optimal, at best.

And you base that on what exactly?

MattLB
dorsy1943 - 13 Dec 2006 09:11 GMT
I don't eat trans fats or hfcs if I can help it.  If the French don't
eat this junk, there are also other things the French and those from
some other cultures don't do.  A friend from Tanzania told me that when
they moved here they were amazed at the portion sizes.  She said in
Tanzania and Europe, a sandwich was thinly sliced bread with a thin
slice of ham between the slices.  My kids were friends with exchange
students who were also amazed at portion sizes.  We Americans feel we
are not getting our money's worth unless the restaurant serves us a
potato the size of Rhode Island and a steak large enough to feed a
small African Village.  And by golly the meal better come with a salad
bar.

Dolores
> http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061212/COL0803/6121203
07/1292/health

>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> TC
dorsy1943 - 13 Dec 2006 09:12 GMT
I don't eat trans fats or hfcs if I can help it.  If the French don't
eat this junk, there are also other things the French and those from
some other cultures don't do.  A friend from Tanzania told me that when
they moved here they were amazed at the portion sizes.  She said in
Tanzania and Europe, a sandwich was thinly sliced bread with a thin
slice of ham between the slices.  My kids were friends with exchange
students who were also amazed at portion sizes.  We Americans feel we
are not getting our money's worth unless the restaurant serves us a
potato the size of Rhode Island and a steak large enough to feed a
small African Village.  And by golly the meal better come with a salad
bar.

Dolores
> http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061212/COL0803/6121203
07/1292/health

>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> TC
allr1@webtv.net - 13 Dec 2006 21:45 GMT
" Restaurants will be asked to replace the trans fats in their menus
with more heart-healthy fats such as peanut oil, canola oil or olive
oil. Even these heart-healthy oils contain a lot of calories "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Healthy oils? Peanut and Canola? WOW.

I'm not sure who is being quoted in the above but 'canola' oil is a
smoke screen to hide that fact of what 'canola' oil really is. (it's
rape seed oil) Do a web search to learn the nasty truth about this
'healthy oil'.

And peanut oil is very high in poly-unsaturates. So that sure wouldn't
be my first choice for a 'healthy oil'.
Jim Chinnis - 13 Dec 2006 22:32 GMT
allr1@webtv.net wrote in part:

>I'm not sure who is being quoted in the above but 'canola' oil is a
>smoke screen to hide that fact of what 'canola' oil really is. (it's
>rape seed oil) Do a web search to learn the nasty truth about this
>'healthy oil'.

It's not rapeseed oil. It's produced from a plant developed in Canada FROM
rape. It appears to reduce heart disease.
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
monty1945@lycos.com - 13 Dec 2006 22:52 GMT
"It's not rapeseed oil. It's produced from a plant developed in Canada
FROM
rape. It appears to reduce heart disease."

Rapeseed oil is often used in "junk food," at least around here.  Go to
your local supermarket and just read the ingedients lists.

As to "appearing" to "reduce" heart disease: most of the time this
means that something lowers cholesterol levels slightly.  As biologist
Ray Peat pointed out long ago, this is a toxic effect, not a beneficial
one.  Again, all one needs to do is to feed one group of rats or dogs a
30% canola oil diet and compare their lives to a group of the same
species fed 30% good quality coconut oil, and see what happens.  If you
don't understand the molecular-level evidence that I present on my
site, and if for some reason the raw demographic data does not strike
you as convincing (though I can't imagine why), then you can do your
own experiment and demonstrate it to yourself.  If you are so sure
about how healthy canola oil is and how "bad" coconut oil is, then you
can take me up on my offer.  If you are right, you pay for nothing.
MattLB - 14 Dec 2006 14:04 GMT
> As to "appearing" to "reduce" heart disease: most of the time this
> means that something lowers cholesterol levels slightly.

"Most of the time" do you know if it's the case this time?

> Ray Peat pointed out long ago, this is a toxic effect, not a beneficial
> one.  Again, all one needs to do is to feed one group of rats or dogs a
> 30% canola oil diet and compare their lives to a group of the same
> species fed 30% good quality coconut oil, and see what happens.

What about hamsters?

From:

Different palm oil preparations reduce plasma cholesterol
concentrations and aortic cholesterol accumulation compared to coconut
oil in hypercholesterolemic hamsters.

"The coconut oil-fed hamsters also had significantly higher plasma
lipid hydroperoxide concentrations compared to RBD-PO (112%) and the
reconstituted RBD-PO (485%)"

i.e. there were *more* oxidised lipids from eating 10% coconut oil than
10% palm oil.

>  and if for some reason the raw demographic data does not strike
> you as convincing (though I can't imagine why),

What data would that be? Are there human populations that eat 30% of a
single oil?

MattLB
TC - 14 Dec 2006 15:04 GMT
> allr1@webtv.net wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu

Technically it is genetically modified rapeseed oil. Canola is a GM
rapeseed. And the oil has to go thru some severe processing to minimize
its content of toxic erucic acids.

And you used the right word in that it "appears" to reduce heart
disease. Then again there were "studies" that made it "appear" that
hydrogenated oils were healthy too. And Ancel Keyes made it "appear"
that "saturated" animal fats were causing heart disease.

So Keyes was wrong about saturated fats and they were wrong about
hydrogenation. What are the chances that they are right about
genetically modified , previously toxic, rapeseed oil being healthy?

TC
 
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