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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / November 2006free radicals (sat fat vs. unsat fat vs. whole food)
I'm quoting montygram: > Go to usda.gov, I think (I'm not on the computer that has it > bookmarked), for the searchable database. They give a breakdown of > all components in common foods, as well as some not so common foods. > The study I cited makes a good point, which is that if what we've been > told about how "bad" "saturated fats" are, these southeast Asian atoll > people should be dropping dead of heart attacks like flies, but they > have almost no heart attacks on their native diets, even with high > choleterol levels. What is the difference between an American who > eats chicken and fish and turkey instead of pork and beef? Not much > in terms of saturated fatty acid consumption, relative to peoples who > eat coconut and palm kernel oil as dietary staples. > The evidence, when looked at as a whole, points to free radical damage from the > unsaturated fatty acids, But if one had to use your same argument then: "if what you've been telling us about how "bad" unsaturated fats are, then populations of nuts eaters and fish eaters should be dropping dead of heart attacks like flies" Examples like the Kitawans or the Okinawans A study found that the consumption of unsaturated fats of Okiwanas is very high, their consumption of EFA is very high and consumption of fish is 37 times greater than americans' Yet they have one of the lowest heart disease and oxidative stress rate and the highest longevity rate world wide It seems to me that the "whole food" argument contradicts what you've been saying You seem to claim that unsaturated fats are bad per se and they're better avoided You say that science backs this up But you'll see that science back this up only as long as you observe the effects of consuming unsaturated fats as processed, distilled, long-stored and overcooked foods But sciences doesn't back this up as far as whole foods rich in unsaturated fats are concerned In other words massive consumption of nuts, seeds, fish and fatty foods like olive and avocados have never been shown to have adverse effects on one's health or to cause oxidative stress You said you're trying to avoid all EFA and that EFA are bad? But why?! As long as you don't take EFA from processed oils and you just eat food like fish and nuts (like the Okinawans do) they won't increase your oxidative stress rate or increase your risk of heart disease And as long as one eats greens, fish, nuts in their whole food state you can't avoid EFA Even eating nothing but lettuce would provide you the 1-2 g of EFA one is supposed to need Also I think the problem of oxidization is better treated with diets high in fruits and vegetables. Many studies showed that the best way to lower oxidative stress was to increase the consumption of green, veggies and fruits ... Davide If you have actually read my posts, you would see that I often say, "in the context of the typical American diet." This is the key point, because it is a diet very rich in omega 6 PUFAs that have had their antioxidant cover stripped away by the refining process, then they are heated/exposed to oxygen again in the way most people use them to cook. It is also a diet that is usually poor in antioxidant-rich foods. If you are studying the Okinawan diet, you will need to do a much better job than the book of that name, which contained numerous and important errors. Moreover, some oils, such as sesame, may contain a lot of omega 6s, but also contain powerful radical neutralizing substances. However, I can't say that if you go to your local supermarker and buy a bottle of sesame oil, that is will contain much of these substances at that point. Another point has to do with whether one has Mead acid or AA in one's cells. If you tested the Okinawans and others, as has been done with other peoples, you would know. Moreover, studies of the Okinawans now say that the "younger generations" are not living so long, but it is also said that they have switched to canola oil. This is consistent with my claims. In any case, when you want to take me up on my experimental offer, you just let me know - it' still open. We will feed one group of common lab animals a diet of either 30% canola and fish oil or 30% coconut oil of my choice. All other food will be the same. A basic vitamin/mineral supplement will be provided, but no extra supplementation (no antioxidants). The canola and fish oil must come from a retailer, just as the coconut oil shall. I am waiting... Another important point is that omega 6 PUFA consumption increased sharply in the USA and other "advanced" nations after WW II, and that is when all these "epidemics" began (that is, "chronic diseases"). On my site, I have cited various nutritional experts who have pointed this out, as early as the 1980s. It certainly may be the case that one can eat a diet rich in omega 6s or omega 3s, but one would also have to know exactly what radical neutralizing foods to eat, and in what amounts, though again, I don't want AA in my cells, so I would refrain from eating such a diet (I want naturrally produced Mead acid in my cells). Since most Americans and other peoples from similar nations are not going to eat the same diet of the Okinawans of circa 1900, the question is, what is the best practical diet in the context of what an American can obtain from the local supermarket, and on my site I have a page that discusses this issue? But the claim that saturated fatty acids themselves are very dangerous has been totally refuted by the raw demographic data alone. My claim has to do with a specific kind of diet. It may be possible to design a diet rich in omega 6 PUFAs that is not terribly unhealthy, but a lot of experimentation would need to be done to determine how to acheive this. Until then, the key issue concerns what is available to most people, how they will cook with it, etc., and how this affects health. Simple experiments can determine this, but one would have to compare ther kind of diet I suggest against the "typical American diet." My diet is one that is tasty, inexpensive, and satisfying, which means that it is practical. Most other diets are not nearly as appealing (such as Pritikin's). To say that the Pritikin diet is also good is irrelevant, because the vast majority of people will not stay on it for long. Think about what happend, historically. The early "nutritionists" wanted to carve out unique disciplinary territory for themselves, but there was no need to for it, because biochemistry can explain what is occurring better than anything else. However, now we see the effects of this endeavor, for example, lard, at 39% saturated fatty acids is classifed with coconut oil (at 92% saturated fatty acids) as "saturated fats." Yet lard is much closer to chicken fat in its SFA content than coconut oil. This is not only not scientific, it is a violation of common sense at its most basic level. My suggestion for a few years now has been to reorganize nutrition so that actual diets people would consider eating for decades are studied against each other. This would be something biochemists would not be interested in, and it would result in a lot of very useful information. On > my site, I have cited various nutritional experts who have pointed this > out, as early as the 1980s. Can you give a link to your site please kind regards andrew vecsey monty1945@lycos.com ha scritto: > If you have actually read my posts, you would see that I often say, "in > the context of the typical American diet." How fish and nuts become foods to avoid "in the context of the typical American diet"? Or let's say I tell you: "I'm going to eat lot of vegetables and fruits and lot of salmon and other fatty fish rich in unsaturated fats and lot of nuts rich in unsaturated fats (like the Okinawans do) and I think such diet will actually protect me from heart disease and will decrease my oxidative stress levels" Do you agree? Davide |
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