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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / November 2006Brie and Goat cheese
I like Brie and Goat cheese very much. I am wondering having Brie and Goat Cheese will increase bad cholesterol. Would anyone please provide some information? Thanks > I like Brie and Goat cheese very much. I am wondering having Brie and > Goat Cheese will increase bad cholesterol. > Would anyone please provide some information? > > Thanks Brie and goat cheese don't elevate cholesterol, but crackers and bread underneath them will. Susan >> I like Brie and Goat cheese very much. I am wondering having Brie and >> Goat Cheese will increase bad cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Brie and goat cheese don't elevate cholesterol, but crackers and bread >underneath them will. I agree. IMHO many types of bread and other grain products may be more harmful than cheese, at least if consumed in large quantities.  SignatureMatti Narkia Matti Narkia <mna@mbnet.fi> wrote in part: >>> I like Brie and Goat cheese very much. I am wondering having Brie and >>> Goat Cheese will increase bad cholesterol. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I agree. IMHO many types of bread and other grain products may be more >harmful than cheese, at least if consumed in large quantities. I agree, also. I also think it is possible that the greatest harm comes from bread/crackers made from other than minimally-processed grain. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > I also think it is possible that the greatest harm comes from bread/crackers > made from other than minimally-processed grain. Not in my case. I test my bg after I eat, and it makes no difference, all starches cause a Big Spike up. Whole kernel rye is better, but not good. Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Susan Well, I agree that's what YOU should pay attention to. But the tables of glycemic index measured the change in blood glucose following consumption of different foods containing the same amount of carbs. The whole-kernel grain products look best (among grains), followed by "whole-grain" (US food industry language to describe ground-up, broken kernels!), followed by (white) flour products made with the bran removed. Rye does seem best among the grains. I limit my intake of carbs somewhat, but the reduction is all from excluding the most processed products, potatoes, and rice. I still consume a little whole-kernel and whole-grain crackers/bread, mostly with my cheese. Tonight is a great one: a really stinky Roquefort... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > Well, I agree that's what YOU should pay attention to. But the tables of > glycemic index measured the change in blood glucose following consumption of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (white) flour products made with the bran removed. Rye does seem best among > the grains. Not just me, Jim. Ask anyone who uses a meter to test the impact of starches. GI is a terrible predictor of actual impact on blood glucose. > I limit my intake of carbs somewhat, but the reduction is all from excluding > the most processed products, potatoes, and rice. I still consume a little > whole-kernel and whole-grain crackers/bread, mostly with my cheese. Tonight > is a great one: a really stinky Roquefort... Oooh, one of my all time favorite cheeses. I cheat and only eat the creamy middle. Leave the rest for dressing or other folks to eat. :-) There are lots of promotions offering free glucose meters at the moment; I just got a second meter, an Ascencia Contour for $23.99 with a rebate for the whole cost after a $50 point of sale rebate. Might be worth getting hold of one and see how you react to whole grains. BTW, once they're ground into flour, they're processed. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Not just me, Jim. Ask anyone who uses a meter to test the impact of > starches. GI is a terrible predictor of actual impact on blood glucose. Following your postings I actually bought one of the freebie meters and have monitored my glucose response. It is rarely over 110 after ANY meal and ANY amount of carbohydrate at one and two hours (on rare occasions after eating astounding amounts of carbohydrates I might push it over 110). For example, I eat a bowl of oat groats, soy milk, a mixture of dried fruit(dates, apricots, cranberries, prunes, figs about 50 grams) and walnuts (probably 600-800 calories total) and the glucose response is in the 90-100 range. I ate a huge bowl of rice and ma po tofu about an hour and half back and I measured myself at 104 just now. Being diabetic you seem to think the entire universe responds similarly to you and that is not so. I like the idea of monitoring insulin sensitivity, and will continue to do so every few months to pick up early problems but at the moment it would appear that I for one have no problem with ANY carbohydrates. Roland > Following your postings I actually bought one of the freebie meters and > have monitored my glucose response. It is rarely over 110 after ANY > meal and ANY amount of carbohydrate at one and two hours (on rare > occasions after eating astounding amounts of carbohydrates I might push > it over 110). Congratulations! People with intact pancreatic function stay within a very narrow range, typically 85-105 no matter what they eat. This suggests that you are not IR and not IGT. > For example, I eat a bowl of oat groats, soy milk, a > mixture of dried fruit(dates, apricots, cranberries, prunes, figs about > 50 grams) and walnuts (probably 600-800 calories total) and the glucose > response is in the 90-100 range. I ate a huge bowl of rice and ma po > tofu about an hour and half back and I measured myself at 104 just now. Do you ever measure at one hour? That's when the peak typically hits, about 45 minutes to an hour. I am diabetic, but still have a robust phase 2 insulin response, so by an hour and a half or two hours, I'm in normal numbers, too, after a spike, though I never eat that much food, much less that much carb. > Being diabetic you seem to think the entire universe responds similarly > to you and that is not so. You're very presumptuous and somewhat uncomprehending. This is a newsgroup for those with CVD and its complications, a group in which insulin resistance is typically the root cause of their CVD. Those are the folks who would do best to avoid highly insulinogenic nutrition. The fact that your numbers are in the normal range doesn't negate the possibility of your suffering the atherogenic effects of the high levels of insulin your pancreas must produce to keep your blood glucose that level, though your presumed insulin sensitivity means you don't require as much of it as someone who is IR. My bias is that everyone would be healthier and more likely to prevent CVD and DM more reliably by not excreting such high levels of insulin daily, but it's your body, your science experiment. > I like the idea of monitoring insulin > sensitivity, and will continue to do so every few months to pick up > early problems but at the moment it would appear that I for one have no > problem with ANY carbohydrates. I don't know what makes you think you're monitoring insulin sensitivity; you may just be monitoring the result of high insulin levels, which promote CVD and inflammation. Further, by eating calorically dense, high glycemic starches which promote oxidation, one is usually eating less low calorie, antioxidant and nutrient dense colorful leafy stuff. You pays your money and you take your chances. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Susan P.S. Roland, nothing you wrote addressed the issue I'd raised, which was about whole grains vs. processed flours. Susan > Following your postings I actually bought one of the freebie meters and > have monitored my glucose response. It is rarely over 110 after ANY > meal and ANY amount of carbohydrate at one and two hours (on rare > occasions after eating astounding amounts of carbohydrates I might push > it over 110). [...] Have you ever tried testing 30 minutes after you eat? > Have you ever tried testing 30 minutes after you eat? If he can eat a boatload of carby stuff and be at 110 at one hour, odds are he's got a very robust insulin response. Susan > If he can eat a boatload of carby stuff and be at 110 at one hour, odds > are he's got a very robust insulin response. Out of curiousity, would a 76 reading 90 mins after breakfast be *too* low (hypoglycemic) ? > Out of curiousity, would a 76 reading 90 mins after breakfast be *too* low > (hypoglycemic) ? I chose not to address hyperinsulinemia once more into the conversation, but to answer your question, yes and no. If a person doesn't feel bad then it's not too low, in terms of hypoglyemia. OTOH, a 76 within two hours of a meal suggests the possibility hyperinsulinemia, which, though it keeps bg within good control, causes a host of problems on its own, and will eventually lead to IR and/or DM down the road, most often. Susan >> Out of curiousity, would a 76 reading 90 mins after breakfast be *too* low >> (hypoglycemic) ? BTW, that was after a (too!) rich breakfast: plenty of rolled oats, milk, nuts, some dried fruit and a few (70%) chocolate squares. I mean I ate a bit too much, that morning! > I chose not to address hyperinsulinemia once more into the conversation, > but to answer your question, yes and no. > If a person doesn't feel bad I felt that *that* particular breakfast was a bit too rich and heavy, indeed. My usual breakfast, on the contrary, with normal quantities of oats, nuts and milk, doesn't make me feel bad. > then it's not too low, in terms of > hypoglyemia. OTOH, a 76 within two hours of a meal suggests the > possibility hyperinsulinemia, Should that 76 reading be compared to other readings? I measured my glycemia at fast once, a few months ago, and it was 84. > which, though it keeps bg within good > control, causes a host of problems on its own, and will eventually lead > to IR and/or DM down the road, most often. Hmmm...! > BTW, that was after a (too!) rich breakfast: plenty of rolled oats, milk, > nuts, some dried fruit and a few (70%) chocolate squares. I mean I ate a > bit too much, that morning! Too rich, or too sugary? > I felt that *that* particular breakfast was a bit too rich and heavy, > indeed. > My usual breakfast, on the contrary, with normal quantities of oats, nuts > and milk, doesn't make me feel bad. I wasn't talking about remorsefulness, by "feel bad" I was referring to clamminess, weakness, disorientation brought on my hypoglycemia. > Should that 76 reading be compared to other readings? I measured my > glycemia at fast once, a few months ago, and it was 84. That's a normal number, but the least informative one. The most informative numbers are taken 45-60 minutes post meal (typicall the bg peak) and two hours post meal, timing from the first bite, typically. Susan > > Following your postings I actually bought one of the freebie meters and > > have monitored my glucose response. It is rarely over 110 after ANY [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Have you ever tried testing 30 minutes after you eat? Not 30 but probably have done 45 minutes. Made sufficient measurements after a range of suspect meals (pancake + maple syrup etc.) to be fairly certain I do not have a problem. The oat groats + dried fruit+ walnuts + soymilk is my normal breakfast. Other than that I do not go out of my way to eat high glycemic index carbs and mainly eat self baked whole wheat sourdough, whole grains etc. My activity level supports a 3000 calorie diet. Roland > The oat groats + dried fruit+ walnuts + soymilk is my normal breakfast. My typical breakfast is Raw oats + nuts + whole milk >>The oat groats + dried fruit+ walnuts + soymilk is my normal breakfast. > > My typical breakfast is > > Raw oats + nuts + whole milk Mine is egg whites with reduced fat cheese and salsa or ratatouille. Susan >I like Brie and Goat cheese very much. I am wondering having Brie and >Goat Cheese will increase bad cholesterol. >Would anyone please provide some information? Cheese does not increase LDL much, at least if you don't overdo it, and if your diet is otherwise healthy and includes enough vegetables, fruit and fatty fish. Eating cheese didn't seem to affect very unfavorably the participants of the Lyon Diet Heart Study: despite eating cheese their CHD event and mortality was reduced 70% in relation to control group. And if we believe Serge Renaud, the originator and one of the authors of the Lyon Diet Heart Study, and why wouldn't we, cheese has never been associated with CHD: Bruno Simini. Serge Renaud: from French paradox to Cretan miracle Lancet, Volume 355, Number 9197, 01 January 2000 <http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605719905/fulltext> "Renaud's answer is simple. The participants in the Lyon study ate like Cretans: no butter, cream, or milk; lots of vegetables, fruit, bread, and cereals; and little meat. For the study, Renaud designed a margarine similar in composition to olive oil, but enriched in a-linolenic acid. Patients ate cheese (a 9000 year old invention not linked to coronary disease) and, of course, drank wine." An interesting quote from the Wikipedia page Cheese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese>: "... Whether cheese's highly saturated fat actually leads to an increased risk of heart disease is called into question when considering France and Greece, which lead the world in cheese eating (more than 14 ounces (400 grams) a week per person, or over 45 pounds (20 kg) a year) yet have relatively low rates of heart disease.[14] ..." The article FINFOOD - Finland eighth in cheese consumption <http://www.finfood.fi/finfood/finnfoo1.nsf/print/A60CF138ED337B94C22571C0004005F 5?opendocument> also claims that the top three countries in cheese consumption are France, Greece and Iceland. France and Greece have low rates of heart disease and Iceland is one of the leading countries in life expectancy. The article also says that the cheese consumption of the Finns has nearly doubled in 50 years. During the same period CHD mortality has plummeted in Finland. Cheese does not seem to affect serum lipis unfavorably: Colquhoun DM, Somerset S, Irish K, Leontjew LM. Cheese added to a low fat diet does not affect serum lipids. Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2003;12 Suppl:S65. PMID: 15023695 [PubMed - in process] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=15023695&> "Background - Dietary fat is the major macronutrient that modifies lipids and lipoproteins. Saturated fat increases LDL, HDL with minimal effect on triglycerides. Part of the French Paradox is high intake of cheeses and low rates of CHD. The effect of cheeses on serum lipids has not been investigated. Method - 20 patients had baseline cholesterol, 4 week low fat (LF) diet (< 25% of calories as fat) followed by 4 week cheese diet (100g of camembert daily, 32-35% of calories of fat). Plasma Lipids were measured at baseline, after LF, and after cheese diet. Patients had dietary counseling at LF and cheese. Food intake was assessed by 3 day dietary diaries at the end of each diet period. Results - During LF compared to baseline, Total cholesterol, HDL and LDL (Friedewald calculation) dropped significantly (P=0.001, P=0.0001 and P=0.008). No other changes were detected. Conclusions - On the background of a LF diet, including cheese is not associated with adverse effects on serum lipids. Fermentation presumably is responsible for these favorable effects." Nestel PJ, Chronopulos A, Cehun M. Dairy fat in cheese raises LDL cholesterol less than that in butter in mildly hypercholesterolaemic subjects. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Sep;59(9):1059-63. PMID: 16015270 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16015270> "... CONCLUSION: A total of 40 g dairy fat eaten daily for 4 weeks as butter, but not as cheese, raised total and LDL cholesterol significantly compared with a diet containing significantly less saturated fat. Dietary advice regarding cheese consumption may require modification." Biong AS, Muller H, Seljeflot I, Veierod MB, Pedersen JI. A comparison of the effects of cheese and butter on serum lipids, haemostatic variables and homocysteine. Br J Nutr. 2004 Nov;92(5):791-7. PMID: 15533268 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15533268> "... Total cholesterol was significantly lower after the CH diet than after the BC diet (-0.27 mmol/l; P=0.03), while the difference in LDL-cholesterol was found to be below significance level (-0.22 mmol/l; P=0.06). There were no significant differences in HDL-cholesterol, triacylglycerols, apo A-I, apo B or lipoprotein (a), haemostatic variables and homocysteine between the diets. The results indicate that, at equal fat content, cheese may be less cholesterol increasing than butter. ..." Tholstrup T, Hoy CE, Andersen LN, Christensen RD, Sandstrom B. Does fat in milk, butter and cheese affect blood lipids and cholesterol differently? J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr;23(2):169-76. PMID: 15047684 [PubMed - in process] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15047684> "... RESULTS: Fasting LDL cholesterol concentration was significantly higher after butter than cheese diet (p = 0.037), with a borderline significant difference in total cholesterol (p = 0.054) after the experimental periods of three weeks. Postprandial glucose showed a higher response after cheese diet than after milk diet (p = 0.010, diet x time interaction). CONCLUSIONS: A different effect of fat in milk and butter could not be confirmed in this study. The moderately lower LDL cholesterol after cheese diet compared to butter diet should be investigated further..." Hauswirth CB, Scheeder MR, Beer JH. High {omega}-3 Fatty Acid Content in Alpine Cheese. The Basis for an Alpine Paradox. Circulation. 2004 Jan 6;109(1):103-7. Epub 2003 Dec 15. PMID: 14676141 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/103> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4676141&dopt=Abstract> Segall JJ. Why is cheese safe for the coronary arteries? Int J Cardiol. 1992 May;35(2):281-3. No abstract available. PMID: 1572753 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=1572753> SignatureMatti Narkia |
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