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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / October 2006

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I am back as Vegan

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Blueshark - 23 Oct 2006 21:27 GMT
I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
fisheater.

It lasted a month but I am now back to vegan.

I can't deny fish tasted good, but eventually it made me ill, more so
than since I have been vegan (18 months)

I will seek out other sources for omega-3 and B12.

The statement and vegan cause is too important to me for me to give up
on.

I look forward to discussions.
Dutch - 23 Oct 2006 21:57 GMT
>I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I look forward to discussions.

If food upsets your stomach that's a good signal to avoid it. It's always
good to listen to your body, as opposed to telling it what it you think it
should want.
Blueshark - 23 Oct 2006 22:08 GMT
> If food upsets your stomach that's a good signal to avoid it. It's always
> good to listen to your body, as opposed to telling it what it you think it
> should want.

Thanks.

I tend to agree Dutch.

> >I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> > fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > I look forward to discussions.
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Oct 2006 22:27 GMT
Just remember that you can get B12 in supplement form and that is fine.
Also, omega 3s are clearly not essential, as was shown in the 1948
experiments in which rats were given a fat free diet.  This refuted the
1930 Burr & Burr experiment, which is still cited.  Apparently, the
Burr's had a more ambitious graduate student than those conducting the
1949 experiments.  In any case, for more information on this and other,
similar issues, go to:

http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/

I was a vegan for over 12 years, but was not getting enough good
quality protein.  I also seem to have consumed too little salt.  My
great grandfather lived to be over 100, and he had no source of omega
3s in his diet, except for the tiniest of trace amounts that you would
get in just about any common diet these days in the West.  I have been
avoiding all PUFAs, except for unavoidable trace amounts, for several
years now, and my health is better than ever.
AWilliamson <AW - 24 Oct 2006 13:04 GMT
>Also, omega 3s are clearly not essential, as was shown in the 1948
>experiments in which rats were given a fat free diet.  This refuted the
>1930 Burr & Burr experiment, which is still cited.  

I didn't read through your cited web page, but I know there's quite a
bit of research today that Omega 3 are need.  They are even being
hyped as a supplement in dog food.

>great grandfather lived to be over 100, and he had no source of omega
>3s in his diet, except for the tiniest of trace amounts that you would
>get in just about any common diet these days in the West.

He lived in a time where the air, water and food were clean.

A.Williamson  mailto:healanthart@shaklee.net

http://www.shaklee.net/healanthart
    Thought of the day:
    The road to success is under construction...
bcpg@canada.com - 23 Oct 2006 23:47 GMT
> I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I will seek out other sources for omega-3 and B12.

If you ate the fish raw you got omega-3, if cooked, you didn't.

You can get your omegas from Omega Nutrition products. The oils are
pressed so they don't overheat and packaged so no sunlight hits the
oils.

B-12 can be obtained from wheat grown in a manured soil.

Grasses uptake B-12 if it is present and wheat is a grass.

> The statement and vegan cause is too important to me for me to give up
> on.
>
> I look forward to discussions.
Dutch - 24 Oct 2006 02:20 GMT
>> I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
>> fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> If you ate the fish raw you got omega-3, if cooked, you didn't.

Totally false. see
http://www.tufts.edu/med/nutrition-infection/hiv/health_omega3.html

> You can get your omegas from Omega Nutrition products. The oils are
> pressed so they don't overheat and packaged so no sunlight hits the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Grasses uptake B-12 if it is present and wheat is a grass.

Flaxseed oil is the best source of Omega 3.

>> The statement and vegan cause is too important to me for me to give up
>> on.
>>
>> I look forward to discussions.
Whining, Crying, Bawl - 24 Oct 2006 18:19 GMT
> > I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> > fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> pressed so they don't overheat and packaged so no sunlight hits the
> oils.

Omega Nutrition makes a blended oil that has omega 3,6,and 9 in proper
proportion.

> B-12 can be obtained from wheat grown in a manured soil.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > I look forward to discussions.
Blueshark - 25 Oct 2006 12:31 GMT
Yeah flaxseed looks pretty good.

15g teaspoon would meet the daily requirements for omega-3.

And at this amount, the EPA and DHA would meet the RDA.

Wikipedia claims it is a cure for cancer, but it doesn't give much
credence to the claim!

> > > I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> > > fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> > >
> > > I look forward to discussions.
pearl - 25 Oct 2006 13:09 GMT
> Yeah flaxseed looks pretty good.

Walnuts as well.  See:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=99
Pumpkin seeds are a good source too, as are hemp seeds, and
leafy greens..  If you take flax seeds it's best to grind them and
soak in fresh water for 20 minutes.  Then just drink them down.

> 15g teaspoon would meet the daily requirements for omega-3.
>
> And at this amount, the EPA and DHA would meet the RDA.
>
> Wikipedia claims it is a cure for cancer, but it doesn't give much
> credence to the claim!
Dutch - 25 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT
> Yeah flaxseed looks pretty good.
>
> 15g teaspoon would meet the daily requirements for omega-3.

I forget, isn't that *weekly requirement*? The seeds are not very
digestible, I sometimes grind them up before cooking them in oatmeal.

Good luck, vegetarian diets are great, if you can make them work for you.

> And at this amount, the EPA and DHA would meet the RDA.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> > >
>> > > I look forward to discussions.
Blueshark - 26 Oct 2006 10:53 GMT
Could be, to be honest, I have not read up on the exact details yet.

I figure I will just increase the quantity for consumption, to minimise
the inefficient EFA/DHA conversion rates.

> > Yeah flaxseed looks pretty good.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> >> > >
> >> > > I look forward to discussions.
pearl - 26 Oct 2006 11:46 GMT
> Could be, to be honest, I have not read up on the exact details yet.
>
> I figure I will just increase the quantity for consumption, to minimise
> the inefficient EFA/DHA conversion rates.

'.. it is important to ensure that there are sufficient amounts of ALA, which is
necessary for the production of EPA and DHA. Most healthy vegetarians
would be well advised to double their intake of ALA, providing  1% of
energy from n-3 fatty acids or 1.1 g/1000 cal. For those with increased needs
or decreased capacity to convert, an intake of 2% of energy or 2.2 g/1000 cal
may be necessary. The primary sources of ALA are selected seeds, nuts, and
legumes (flaxseed, hempseed, canola, walnuts, and soy) and the green leaves
of plants, including phytoplankton and algae.
..
Practical guidelines for achieving optimal EFA intake in vegetarians are as
follows. 1) Make a wide variety of whole plant foods the foundation of the
diet. 2) Get most fat from whole foods- nuts, seeds, olives, avocados, and
soy foods. 3) If using concentrated fats and oils, select those rich in
monounsaturated fats, such as olive, canola, or nut oils. n-3-Rich oils can
also be used but should not be heated. Moderate use of n-6-rich oils is
recommended. 4) Limit intake of processed foods and deep-fried foods
rich in trans and n-6 fatty acids. 5) Reduce intake of foods rich in saturated
fat and cholesterol. 6) Include foods rich in n-3 fatty acids in the daily diet.
Aim for 2-4 g ALA/d.  7) Consider using a direct source of DHA. Aim for
100-300 mg/d. '
...
 For those with increased needs for EPA and DHA (eg, pregnant and
lactating women) or at greater risk for poor conversion (persons with
diabetes, those with neurological disorders, premature infants, the elderly),
it may be prudent to ensure that there is a direct source of EPA and DHA.'

While they are the original sources of EPA and DHA (fish do not produce
long-chain n-3 fatty acids), most are not concentrated sources because of
their extremely low total fat content. An important exception is a DHA-rich
microalgae that provides 10-40% DHA by dry weight and is currently
available in supplement form. When supplementing with a direct DHA
source, 100-300 mg/d is recommended. Blue-green algae (spirulina and
Aphanizomenon flos-aquae) are low in long-chain n-3 fatty acids. Spirulina
is rich in -linolenic acid (GLA, n-6), while A. flos-aquae is more
concentrated in ALA. Though blue-green algae is not a significant source
of EPA or DHA, some research indicates that it has a very high conversion
rate in comparison to other plants (R Kushak et al, unpublished observations,
1999). Macroalgae, otherwise known as seaweed, is even lower in fat than
most vegetables (< 1-14% of calories from fat), although it does contain
small amounts of long-chain fatty acids. A 100-g serving provides, on
average, 100 mg EPA but little DHA. Seaweeds do not contribute
significantly to EPA intakes in the Western world but are important sources
where people use large quantities of seaweed on a daily basis (eg, Japan
and other parts of Asia). Thus, while vegetarians can rely on eggs and/or
microalgae supplements for DHA, most consume little if any EPA.
However, < 10-11% of DHA is retroconverted to EPA; thus, if sufficient
ALA and DHA are consumed, total EPA production would be expected
to be adequate (61).
...'
http://tinyurl.com/65xn7
Blueshark - 26 Oct 2006 12:55 GMT
An important exception is a DHA-rich
> microalgae that provides 10-40% DHA by dry weight and is currently
> available in supplement form. When supplementing with a direct DHA
> source, 100-300 mg/d is recommended.

That is interesting info, I am going to look into algae as a food
source/supplement

> > Could be, to be honest, I have not read up on the exact details yet.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> ...'
> http://tinyurl.com/65xn7
Geoff - 24 Oct 2006 12:04 GMT
>I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
>fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I will seek out other sources for omega-3 and B12.

Flaxseed is excellent.
dh@. - 26 Oct 2006 15:16 GMT
>I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
>fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I can't deny fish tasted good, but eventually it made me ill, more so
>than since I have been vegan (18 months)

   Then you must be doing something very bad to your body
by trying to be vegan. If you work yourself up to eating some
grass raised beef you will be helping yourself, as well as
contributing to decent lives for livestock and a better environment
for wildlife than you could by consuming any vegetable products.
Blueshark - 26 Oct 2006 16:29 GMT
>     Then you must be doing something very bad to your body
> by trying to be vegan. If you work yourself up to eating some
> grass raised beef you will be helping yourself, as well as
> contributing to decent lives for livestock and a better environment
> for wildlife than you could by consuming any vegetable products.

I, just, don't want to.

> >I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan to
> >fisheater.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> contributing to decent lives for livestock and a better environment
> for wildlife than you could by consuming any vegetable products.
dh@. - 27 Oct 2006 14:33 GMT
>>     Then you must be doing something very bad to your body
>> by trying to be vegan. If you work yourself up to eating some
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I, just, don't want to.

   Right. It doesn't really have anything  to do with ethics or with your
own nutrition. You have a personal aversion to eating flesh, and/or
you just think veg*nism is something to be proud of and respected
for some reason. Most likely your aversion to eating flesh caused
you to develop a great respect for the idea of being veg*n somewhere
along the way, and cognitive dissonance prevents you from ever
wanting to consider something else. It's a sad thing, but apparently
you're stuck with it.
Blueshark - 30 Oct 2006 11:30 GMT
>     Right. It doesn't really have anything  to do with ethics or with your
> own nutrition. You have a personal aversion to eating flesh, and/or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> wanting to consider something else. It's a sad thing, but apparently
> you're stuck with it.

I like you dh@, in fact I want to boil you with some potatoes and eat
you elbows.

Then we will discuss my veganism.

..Actually there is some truth in your childish grammatical construct.

> >>     Then you must be doing something very bad to your body
> >> by trying to be vegan. If you work yourself up to eating some
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> wanting to consider something else. It's a sad thing, but apparently
> you're stuck with it.
dh@. - 30 Oct 2006 16:30 GMT
>>     Right. It doesn't really have anything  to do with ethics or with your
>> own nutrition. You have a personal aversion to eating flesh, and/or
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I like you dh@, in fact I want to boil you with some potatoes and eat
>you elbows.

   Thanks.

>Then we will discuss my veganism.

   You really demand too much. Hmm...that seems to be part of it too,
with the whole "ar" thing you know. That's pretty demanding, and you
guys don't even observe it.

>..Actually there is some truth in your childish grammatical construct.

  It's most likely all true, and some parts of it you might be willing to
acknowledge. If you hate the idea of eating flesh, you could try
some cage free eggs and consider the fact that you're contributing
to a cage free environment for laying hens. I've been doing that up
until the last dozen. I felt the cage free were too expensive last time,
but today I'll buy them anyway and feel sort of bad for giving in like
that.

>> >>     Then you must be doing something very bad to your body
>> >> by trying to be vegan. If you work yourself up to eating some
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> wanting to consider something else. It's a sad thing, but apparently
>> you're stuck with it.
rick - 26 Oct 2006 21:57 GMT
>I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan
>to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I look forward to discussions.

Nope, you're still not a vegan.

Grassfed beef has better omega 3/6 ratios than fish.  Plus it
tastes great...
http://www.mercola.com/beef/omega3_oil.htm
Blueshark - 27 Oct 2006 10:26 GMT
> Grassfed beef has better omega 3/6 ratios than fish.  Plus it
> tastes great...http://www.mercola.com/beef/omega3_oil.htm

Grassfed bovines? Large, lumbering beasts which probably scare the hell
out of you if you were stranded in a field with them.

Never mind, suckle on their breasts. Mmmmm.

> >I made some posts on usenet describing my transition from vegan
> >to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Grassfed beef has better omega 3/6 ratios than fish.  Plus it
> tastes great...http://www.mercola.com/beef/omega3_oil.htm
 
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