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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2006

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Insulin and foods

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Davide - 22 Jul 2006 16:12 GMT
I was wondering: what is the truth about the control of production of
insulin and the foods we eat?

Since many people believe that only carbohydrates raise insulin it is
often suggested to conbine carbs with protein to lower the insulin
response

But since the truth is that proteins raise insulin as much as carbs and
that for example beef has an higher insulin score than refined pasta Am
J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264-76
how does that change the effect of foods on insulin?

Is still combining carbs and protein a good way to lower insulin?
Or maybe eating just carbs would result in less insulin?
Or maybe we can't lower insulin levels because only fats are neutral to
insulin?

Your opinion?
David
TC - 22 Jul 2006 17:29 GMT
> I was wondering: what is the truth about the control of production of
> insulin and the foods we eat?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Your opinion?
> David

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316099066/sr=1-3/qid=1153585695/ref=pd_bbs_3/1
04-8418895-1358305?ie=UTF8&s=books


Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving
Normal Blood Sugars Revised & Updated (Hardcover)
by Richard K. Bernstein

********

TC
outsor@citynet.net - 22 Jul 2006 17:36 GMT
"Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving
Normal Blood Sugars Revised & Updated (Hardcover)
by Richard K. Bernstein"

And how does this address the original question of the poster?
TC - 23 Jul 2006 07:23 GMT
> "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving
> Normal Blood Sugars Revised & Updated (Hardcover)
> by Richard K. Bernstein"
>
> And how does this address the original question of the poster?

It is the definitive guide on managing diabetes with diet. Any
questions you may have will be answered by this book.

TC
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Jul 2006 16:56 GMT
Where you go are going wrong is to assume that arbitrary designations
of "calorie restricted" and "normal" diets are scientific constructs,
rather than sociological ones.  On my diet, I am naturally calorie
resticted - I don't have the desire or the need to eat more than
perhaps 1800 calories a day.  I do agree that once one is in such bad
physical shape as to be called a "diabetic," all bets are off, as they
say.  Obviously, it makes sense to attentuate oxidative and other
stressors, make sure your body is making enough stomach acid and
digestive enzymes, make sure your body is getting truly essential
vitamins and minerals (some of which are depleted rapidly during a lot
of oxidative stress), etc., but until someone does the kinds of
experiments I propose on real people (and not those that are on
"death's door"), I generally restrict myself to making suggestions
about maintaining health, not curing "diseases" that should have never
occurred in the first place (if our "experts" weren't the incompetents
they in fact are, for the most part).
italiangm - 22 Jul 2006 17:52 GMT
> I was wondering: what is the truth about the control of production of
> insulin and the foods we eat?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Your opinion?
> David

"... Acute exposure of the pancreatic b-cell to FFA (free fatty acids)
results in an increase of insulin release, whereas a chronic exposure
results in desensitization and suppression of secretion. We recently
showed that palmitate (an FFA) augments insulin release in the presence
of non-stimulatory concentrations of glucose. ..."

Pleiotropic effects of fatty acids on pancreatic beta-cells.
Haber EP, Ximenes HM, Procopio J, Carvalho CR, Curi R, Carpinelli AR
J. Cell. Physiol. 194: 1-12, 2002.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/99520748/HTMLSTART

Notes:

-- Beef contains various amounts of saturated fat including palmitate.
-- Parenthetical remarks are mine and were added for clarity.
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Jul 2006 19:04 GMT
It's more complicated than you think, for example:

"The results can be summed up by saying that a calorically restricted
animal, even one that has just eaten, is rapidly turning over
(renewing) its peripheral tissues. It's an effect that you'd expect, in
fact, because insulin is a very powerful anabolic (tissue-building)
hormone. Insulin levels fall in calorie-restricted animals, but you get
a spike (rapid increase) in insulin levels after they eat, an intense
spike, and they're very insulin-sensitive (able to respond to insulin).
What I expect happens after they eat is an intense wave of protein
biosynthesis under the influence of insulin. As soon as the insulin
level falls, they start to break down their proteins again and put the
products out into the blood for energy generation. This keeps
calorie-restricted animals constantly recycling their proteins so they
don't accumulate damaged, oxidized, old, defective and toxic proteins."

Source:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/dec2001_cover_spindler_04.html

This is consistent with the molecular-level evidence - Spindler knows
what he's talking about here.  To learn more about the best quality
evidence, go to:

http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/

You can ask me questions, if you like, though the message boards there.
italiangm - 22 Jul 2006 19:39 GMT
> It's more complicated than you think, for example:
>
> "The results can be summed up by saying that a calorically restricted
> animal, even one that has just eaten, is rapidly turning over
> (renewing) its peripheral tissues.

The key phrase here is calorically-restricted.

The context of Spindler's studies are based on mice who were placed on
a short term calorie restricted diet (calories were reduced 20% for the
first two weeks, then 40% for the next two weeks). He did this to
capture metrics for subjects kept in a calorie restricted metabolic
state.

The human participants in the study I cited ate their normal diets
prior to an overnight fast. They had a fasting glucose taken before
glucose and insulin testing with individual food items began.  None of
the human participants were progressively calorie restricted over 4
weeks time like the mice were.

The metabolic/homeostatic conditions under which the two studies were
conducted were entirely different.
TC - 25 Jul 2006 16:56 GMT
> > It's more complicated than you think, for example:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> capture metrics for subjects kept in a calorie restricted metabolic
> state.

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/macronutrientland.html

quote***

Stephen R. Spindler, professor of biochemistry at the University of
California at Riverside is the current guru of calorie restriction.
"Low-Calorie Diet Slows Aging in Mice in Study," claimed a recent
headline.17 According to the article, "Putting elderly mice on a very
low-calorie diet for as little as four weeks reversed many of the
changes in the activity of various genes that had occurred during
normal aging. . ." The resesearchers were not looking at actual signs
of disease, nor were they measuring lifespan, but instead focused on
the analysis of 11,000 different genes using a method called microarray
technology in which Spindler has large financial holdings.

Actually, none of these studies is particularly relevant to humans
eating real food because the rat and mice chow used is a highly
artificial concoction straight from Macro-Nutrient Land. The chow used
in Ross's rat studies consisted of 22 percent casein, 6 percent corn
oil and 59 percent sucrose! Thus, calorie restriction in these studies
means restriction of isolated protein (produced at high temperatures
that produce carcinogens), vegetable oil (invariably rancid) and
refined sugar (completely devoid of nutrients and a stress on any
living system). If this research has anything to teach us, it is that
the calories humans of every age should restrict are the empty calories
of white flour and sugar in processed foods; instead we are being
urged, over and over again, to cut back on fats.

unquote***

> The human participants in the study I cited ate their normal diets
> prior to an overnight fast. They had a fasting glucose taken before
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The metabolic/homeostatic conditions under which the two studies were
> conducted were entirely different.
MattLB - 26 Jul 2006 14:22 GMT
> Is still combining carbs and protein a good way to lower insulin?
> Or maybe eating just carbs would result in less insulin?
> Or maybe we can't lower insulin levels because only fats are neutral to
> insulin?

Combining carbs and protein isn't about lowering insulin, it's about
preventing the insulin-induced drop in blood glucose that makes you
feel hungry and want to snack again.

Although some of the amino acids in proteins raise insulin, the others
raise glucagon, which acts to counterbalance the effect of insulin
smoothing off the response as blood glucose levels approach normal
(rather than overshooting and leading to hunger).

MattLB
 
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