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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2006Steroids
Has anyone here used steroids? What are the side effects? I have been chatting to a guy that has suggested I try steroids as this will help me get the type of body I want. He said that he has some mood swings with them but nothing else to worry about. Should I give them a go? > Has anyone here used steroids? What are the side effects? > I have been chatting to a guy that has suggested I try steroids as this > will help me get the type of body I want. He said that he has some > mood swings with them but nothing else to worry about. > Should I give them a go? A coworker and a friend of his tried steroids while in the service. It increased his physical strength considerably. He had the steroids under medical supervision, so he wasn't overdosed as many are. When he went off the steroids, his strength returned to normal. He said that the steroids caused him to anger easily. He is weight lifter, but not a body builder. If you don't do weight lifting, the steroids won't help. You should go to an endocrinolgist first to have your testosterone levels checked and then the endocrinoligist can prescribe supplemental testosterone or steroids. Testosterone doesn't have the muscle building of steroids, but it will make you a little more lean.  SignatureRon Thanks Ron, I'm a fat guy already, this bloke said that it would help me gain more muscle definition and mass by just using them, no exercise was needed. So you can imagine that I am interested. > > Has anyone here used steroids? What are the side effects? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > testosterone or steroids. Testosterone doesn't have the muscle building > of steroids, but it will make you a little more lean. >Thanks Ron, > >I'm a fat guy already, this bloke said that it would help me gain >more muscle definition and mass by just using them, no exercise was >needed. So you can imagine that I am interested. Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in conjunction with resistance exercise. The BEST bet is to start a program of exercise that works best for you. Avoid the drugs as they can have side effects and are costly. George M. Carter > >Thanks Ron, > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in > conjunction with resistance exercise. Sad to say, that's not actually true. Steroids with no exercise will still work. In fact, one well known study found couch potatoes on T gain more muscle then guys weight training without T. As expected, guys on T who lifted weights had the most dramatic results. Though i would never recommend such a stupid (read lazy) strategy of steroids and no exercise, it will have some effects. N Engl J Med. 1996 Jul 4;335(1):1-7.Click here to read Links The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men. Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. BACKGROUND: Athletes often take androgenic steroids in an attempt to increase their strength. The efficacy of these substances for this purpose is unsubstantiated, however. METHODS: We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively. RESULTS: Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [+/-SE] change in triceps area, 424 +/- 104 vs. -81 +/- 109 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607 +/- 123 vs. -131 +/- 111 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9 +/- 4 vs. -1 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05) and squatting exercises (16 +/- 4 vs. 3 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1 +/- 0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501 +/- 104 square millimeters; quadriceps area, 1174 +/- 91 square millimeters) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22 +/- 2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38 +/- 4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group. CONCLUSIONS: Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men. SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com T use? T for Than! [...] > <snip>Steroids with no exercise will still work. In fact, one > well known study found couch potatoes on T gain more muscle > then guys weight training without T. ^^^^^^^^^ Than. Whenever you're comparing two groups or items it's thAn. Example: Couch potatoes versus fitness trainers - "The couch potatoes using T gained more musle thAn the fitness trainers. As a factor of time it's thEn. Example: When Will Brink uses that word correctly thEn hell will certainly have frozen over! > As expected, guys on T who lifted weights had the most > dramatic results. Though i would never recommend such a > stupid (read lazy) strategy of steroids and no exercise, it > will have some effects. > > N Engl J Med. 1996 Jul 4;335(1):1-7.<snip> Interesting post regardless of the misuse, however. SignatureCurt snip >> Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in >> conjunction with resistance exercise. > >Sad to say, that's not actually true. Steroids with no exercise will >still work. Thanks for the study--the abstract is confusing (and a little peculiar that men in the placebo group had a LOSS of tissue?) I'd like to read the whole article. At that dose (pretty high) you'll probably get something but if one continued on for more than 10 weeks, other issues would probably arise. So I think the study supports the idea that steroids alone could make some changes--and if a person wants to try it, they can do whatever they want. But then some people think Bush is smart and Scientology is a religion! George M. Carter >In fact, one well known study found couch potatoes on T gain >more muscle then guys weight training without T. As expected, guys on T [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle >size and strength in normal men. > snip > >> Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that men in the placebo group had a LOSS of tissue?) I'd like to read > the whole article. It's worth reading. Sure, if they increased energy use without additional cals, tissue loss would be the result. I am just speculating there BTW. > At that dose (pretty high) Not really. High for HRT, yes, High for what most bbers use to gain LBM, no, it's quite low. > you'll probably get something but if one > continued on for more than 10 weeks, other issues would probably > arise. Possible, but it still shows how amazingly safe these compounds are and (yet again) debunks the anti steroid myths. > So I think the study supports the idea that steroids alone could make > some changes--and if a person wants to try it, they can do whatever > they want. But not recommended! > But then some people think Bush is smart and Scientology is a > religion! No comment! SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com >> snip >> >> Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Not really. High for HRT, yes, High for what most bbers use to gain LBM, >no, it's quite low. If that's the case, bodybuilders may be doing themselves considerable harm. But they undoubtedly know that. What is worrisome is if the "roid rage" is taken out on others. >> you'll probably get something but if one >> continued on for more than 10 weeks, other issues would probably >> arise. > >Possible, but it still shows how amazingly safe these compounds are and >(yet again) debunks the anti steroid myths. For HRT, I think anabolics are very safe (or can be). Especially gels or injectable forms that bypass the liver. >> So I think the study supports the idea that steroids alone could make >> some changes--and if a person wants to try it, they can do whatever >> they want. > >But not recommended! I wouldn't recommend somebody use anabolics without exercise. Indeed, I'd say just do the exercise. Unless you want one of those bodies which I find rather distorted and bizarre looking. Whatever floats the proverbial boat, I guess! >> But then some people think Bush is smart and Scientology is a >> religion! > >No comment! LOL. George M. Carter > >> snip > >> >> Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If that's the case, bodybuilders may be doing themselves considerable > harm. And what do you base that on? The key word there being "may." Millions of athletes have used high dose AAS over decades and we have at best, a handful of deaths we can point to as *possibly* being related to AAS. No doubt, AAS has to follow the three Ds of toxicity, which is drug, dose, and duration. Regardless, far more people are harmed by drugs many consider safe then have ever been harmed by AAS. Finally, like everything, it's a risk to benefit on their part. >But they undoubtedly know that. What is worrisome is if the > "roid rage" is taken out on others. AAS do not turn mr nice guy into an ax murderer. Take a real jerk and load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but booze is far worse in that respect. > >> you'll probably get something but if one > >> continued on for more than 10 weeks, other issues would probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For HRT, I think anabolics are very safe (or can be). Especially gels > or injectable forms that bypass the liver. Liver issues are overrated but do exist. Liver issues are only a concern with oral steroids,specifically 17AA oral steroids. > >> So I think the study supports the idea that steroids alone could make > >> some changes--and if a person wants to try it, they can do whatever [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Unless you want one of those bodies which I find rather distorted and > bizarre looking. Whatever floats the proverbial boat, I guess! Agreed! SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com > > >> snip > > >> >> Then your friend is misinformed. Anabolic steroids ONLY work in [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but > booze is far worse in that respect. Amen. A fact which is re-established daily. > > AAS do not turn mr nice guy into an ax murderer. Take a real jerk and > > load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but > > booze is far worse in that respect. > > Amen. A fact which is re-established daily. Ask any cop how many people he has taken to jail for "roid rage" compared to "booz rage" SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com > "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ask any cop how many people he has taken to jail for "roid rage" > compared to "booz rage" Well, we do have Craig Titus and his woman in our local lockup. I think it may have been the heat, though, and not the steroids. David > > "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@yahoo.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, we do have Craig Titus and his woman in our local lockup. Is that still making the news out there or are they onto other terrible stories? > I think it may have been the heat, though, and not the steroids. I believe there, as is often the case, a whole mess of different drugs involved, including AAS. I have a feeling that meth, coke, and two grams of T a week or so can make people a little edgy.... > David SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com > > "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@yahoo.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, we do have Craig Titus and his woman in our local lockup. Maybe Craig and Bertil Fox could be pen pals. They could even collaborate on a book. "Body for Lifers" > > > "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Maybe Craig and Bertil Fox could be pen pals. They could even > collaborate on a book. They didn't hang Bertil? > "Body for Lifers" Would be a best seller! SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com >> > > "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >They didn't hang Bertil? It appears they intended to do that upon his conviction. However, on appeal of his conviction, he confessed to the murders in exchange for leniency, and he got a life imprisonment. > >They didn't hang Bertil? > > It appears they intended to do that upon his conviction. However, on > appeal of his conviction, he confessed to the murders in exchange for > leniency, and he got a life imprisonment. Awwww, another happy ending in the bodybuilding world.... SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com [...] > > Well, we do have Craig Titus and his woman in our local lockup. > > Maybe Craig and Bertil Fox could be pen pals. They could even > collaborate on a book. > > "Body for Lifers" (groan) Bertil was given a bum rap, imo, however Titus needs to buuuuurn! And Ryan, too. GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!!! http://titusandryan.com/ SignatureCurt >> > AAS do not turn mr nice guy into an ax murderer. Take a real jerk and >> > load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Ask any cop how many people he has taken to jail for "roid rage" >compared to "booz rage" They've come up with a cure for booze rage, though. It's called a Taser. On-site electroconvulsive therapy. snip >> >Not really. High for HRT, yes, High for what most bbers use to gain LBM, >> >no, it's quite low. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of athletes have used high dose AAS over decades and we have at best, a >handful of deaths we can point to as *possibly* being related to AAS. "Harm" doesn't automatically equate with "mortality." As to the data about the risks, I think there are a lot of people who are very savvy about stacking, cycling, the androgenic features, liver toxicities and other issues around the various anabolic steroids that harm can be minimized. I think others get desperate to bulk up and do too much for their own health. Do you deny that "roid rage" exists? That CAN be a serious issue. >No >doubt, AAS has to follow the three Ds of toxicity, which is drug, dose, >and duration. Regardless, far more people are harmed by drugs many >consider safe then have ever been harmed by AAS. Finally, like >everything, it's a risk to benefit on their part. Agreed. >>But they undoubtedly know that. What is worrisome is if the >> "roid rage" is taken out on others. > > AAS do not turn mr nice guy into an ax murderer. Take a real jerk and >load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but >booze is far worse in that respect. Could be. I really haven't reviewed the data but would be happy to see what data you know exist to support the point. >> >> you'll probably get something but if one >> >> continued on for more than 10 weeks, other issues would probably [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Liver issues are overrated but do exist. Liver issues are only a concern >with oral steroids,specifically 17AA oral steroids. Agreed. As to whether they are overrated--that's a judgment call I'm not entirely sure I agree with. >> >> So I think the study supports the idea that steroids alone could make >> >> some changes--and if a person wants to try it, they can do whatever [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Agreed! I ain't a prude. People WILL do what they wish, of course! I think the best bet is to help people be as best informed as possible about risks and benefits. In the realm of HIV disease (which is where I have learned what little I know), I have certainly seen the clinical benefits of HRT use of anabolics. George M. Carter > snip > >> >Not really. High for HRT, yes, High for what most bbers use to gain LBM, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "Harm" doesn't automatically equate with "mortality." Not saying it is, but harmful effects can be tracked via blood tests, etc. and are easy enough to control via additional meds, etc. > As to the data about the risks, I think there are a lot of people who > are very savvy about stacking, cycling, the androgenic features, liver > toxicities and other issues around the various anabolic steroids that > harm can be minimized. Knowledge is power. Ignorance kills. Applies to all aspects of life and all drugs; like the number of liver failures per year due to long term NSAID use. "But doc, it must be safe, I got it at CVS!" > I think others get desperate to bulk up and do too much for their own > health. I am sure that is the case at times, no doubt >Do you deny that "roid rage" exists? That CAN be a serious > issue. It does not exist in the way it's portrayed by the "don't confuse me with the facts" media. Already outlined the reality behind it below, so I wont rehash it. > > AAS do not turn mr nice guy into an ax murderer. Take a real jerk and > >load him up with androgens, yes, it will make him more aggressive, but > >booze is far worse in that respect. > > Could be. I really haven't reviewed the data but would be happy to see > what data you know exist to support the point. I would say the burden of proof is on you in this case to supply *hard* data to support roid rage. What does exist is not worth the paper it's printed on to be honest with you. > >> For HRT, I think anabolics are very safe (or can be). Especially gels > >> or injectable forms that bypass the liver. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Agreed. As to whether they are overrated--that's a judgment call I'm > not entirely sure I agree with. That's up to you, but it's a fact. I have read more blood tests in that area then 10 MDs combined. Studies are quite clear on that. Sick people, given high doses of liver toxic 17AA steroids (in particular Anadrol) for long periods of time (years in most cases) finds clear toxicity. In healthy athletes, increased liver values are transient and often less then a person taking Motrin too often. Athletes who take very high doses of known to be liver toxic orals will show elevated liver enzymes that go back to base line afterward. So, the media's position that steroids will make your liver fall out is, in point of fact, FAR overrated and both data and 50 years of real world experience support that. If you are really interested in this topic, the best review to date is: Can J Appl Physiol. 1996 Dec;21(6):421-40. Androgen use by athletes: a reevaluation of the health risks. Street C, Antonio J, Cudlipp D. It has been estimated that 1 to 3 million male and female athletes in the United States have used androgens. Androgen use has been associated with liver dysfunction, altered blood lipids, infertility, musculotendinous injury, and psychological abnormalities. Although androgens have been available to athletes for over 50 years, there is little evidence to show that their use will cause any long-term detriment; furthermore, the use of moderate doses of androgens results in side effects that are largely benign and reversible. It is our contention that the incidence of serious health problems associated with the use of androgens by athletes has been overstated. > I ain't a prude. People WILL do what they wish, of course! I think the > best bet is to help people be as best informed as possible about risks > and benefits. Exactly, but that's not being allowed by the powers that be due to the failed "war on drugs" and other pseudo moral bullsh*&. > In the realm of HIV disease (which is where I have > learned what little I know), I have certainly seen the clinical > benefits of HRT use of anabolics. As have I. A study of interest. They did find elevated liver enzymes, but as we both know, that is not a sign of liver disfunction per se: HIV Clin Trials. 2003 May-Jun;4(3):150-63.Click here to read Links Oxymetholone for the treatment of HIV-wasting: a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled phase III trial in eugonadal men and women. Department of Dermatology, University of Dusseldorf, Dusseldorf, Germany. BACKGROUND: Despite highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART), chronic involuntary weight loss still remains a serious problem in the care of HIV patients due to various alterations in energy metabolism and endocrine regulation. Previous studies in HIV-positive men undergoing androgen replacement therapy or treatment with recombinant growth hormone (rGH) have shown partial restoration of lean body mass (LBM), but these treatments have largely not been sufficiently studied in eugonadal individuals. METHOD: A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of 89 HIV-positive eugonadal women and men with wasting assigned to the anabolic steroid oxymetholone (50 mg bid or tid) or placebo for 16 weeks was performed. Body weight, bioimpedance measurements, quality of life parameters, and appetite were analyzed. RESULTS: Oxymetholone led to a significant weight gain of 3.0 +/- 0.5 and 3.5 +/- 0.7 kg in the tid and bid groups, respectively (p <.05 for each treatment versus placebo), while individuals in the placebo group gained an average of 1.0 +/- 0.7 kg. Body cell mass (BCM) increased in the oxymetholone bid group (3.8 +/- 0.4 kg; p <.0001) and in the oxymetholone tid group (2.1 +/- 0.6 kg; p <.005). Significant improvements were noted in appetite and food intake, increased wellbeing, and reduced weakness by self-examination. The most important adverse event was liver-associated toxicity. Overall, 43% of patients in the tid group, 25% of patients in the bid oxymetholone group, and 8% in the placebo group had a greater than 5 times baseline increase for ALT, AST, or gamma GT, while other adverse events were not increased over placebo. CONCLUSION: Oxymetholone can be considered an effective anabolic steroid in eugonadal male and female patients with AIDS-associated wasting. The bid (100 mg/day) regimen appeared to be equally effective to the tid (150 mg/day) regimen in terms of weight gain, LBM, and BCM and was associated with less liver toxicity. Additional studies of interest: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed > George M. Carter SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> schreef: >>Liver issues are overrated but do exist. Liver issues are only a concern >>with oral steroids,specifically 17AA oral steroids. > Agreed. As to whether they are overrated--that's a judgment call I'm > not entirely sure I agree with. It takes years of using orals to f.ck up the liver completely. With injectables like testosterone or nandrolone its close to impossible. I have been using 22 years now, and my liver is in perfect condition, and so are all the other organs. (except for my brain...) ---- Pete > > >Thanks Ron, > > > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle > size and strength in normal men. Does that explain why competitive women bodybuilders are rarely bigger than men who don't even exercise? > Does that explain why competitive women bodybuilders are rarely bigger > than men who don't even exercise? Nope, and it's not true anyway. SignatureWill Brink @ www.BrinkZone.com > Has anyone here used steroids? What are the side effects? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Should I give them a go? no, you shouldn't...unless you're a competitive bodybuilder that's already won some shows. since you're not putting any information out there, i'll just assume this is one of those nonsense posts intended to start a flame war. |
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