Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2004
High Levels of Arsenic Found in Chickens
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pearl - 11 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT '.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and the United States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety Inspection Service sampled the liver tissue of 5,000 chickens to estimate the arsenic concentrations of the muscle tissue, which is the part of the chicken that is most consumed. They found arsenic concentrations in young chickens to be three- to four-fold higher than in other poultry or meat sampled.
Arsenic is an approved animal feed supplement that farmers use to control intestinal parasites in chickens. Of the 5,000 chicken samples, 3,611 were young chickens and 1,582 were mature chickens. By 1997, 99 percent of chicken was consumed as a young chicken. .. Researchers calculated that a person consuming approximately two ounces of chicken daily might ingest 3.6 micrograms to 5.2 micrograms of inorganic arsenic. People who eat more chicken than this are ingesting up to 10-times higher levels of arsenic. Chronic exposure of inorganic arsenic, or 10 micrograms to 40 micrograms per day, is associated with skin, respiratory and bladder cancers. .'
http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
Marky - 12 Jan 2004 03:00 GMT So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious substances?
> '.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and the United > States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety Inspection Service [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
 Signature remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies. I fart in Darl McBride's general direction. Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings. Rust is good--it eliminates dents.
pearl - 12 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT > So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious > substances? *NO*.
> > '.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and the United > > States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety Inspection Service [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765 Jim Webster - 12 Jan 2004 06:58 GMT Some cross posts cut
> > So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious > > substances? > > *NO*. Pearl wants to increase grain production for the third world by using organic production techniques which cut production by 30%
Jim Webster
William A. Noyes - 12 Jan 2004 10:12 GMT > Pearl wants to increase grain production for the third world by using > organic production techniques which cut production by 30% > > Jim Webster While your comment may or may not refer to a plan of Pearl's, it does NOT address the issue of the extra As in the table bound chicken meat.
Remember this is crossposted so we are not all familiar with your or hers past positions. And no matter what they are, the doesn't address the issue only the various biases.
Marky - 15 Jan 2004 06:37 GMT But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not enough arable land remaining on the plant to grow sufficient foodstuffs for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard, but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks.
>> So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally >> noxious substances? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
 Signature remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies. I fart in Darl McBride's general direction. Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings. Rust is good--it eliminates dents.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 14:47 GMT > But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not > enough arable land remaining on the plant 'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes. (New Internationalist, May, 1995)' IOW,the land used to grow grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates <excluding grazing/silage/hay> [grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...." -- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of, Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California
(822mt / 600m = 1.37 tonnes total grain per person, per year.) SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually providing the equivalent in grain for (642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 1.37t =) ~93.72 million, instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people. When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80% of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up. Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption of livestock products.
> to grow sufficient foodstuffs > for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses > due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I > don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard, > but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks. They shouldn't be.
Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar 1-17-01
Farmers across the developing world are throwing away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable" farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring on millions of farms.
The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex, says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past decade and that farming without tilling is among the most widely adopted forms.
Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."
Nature versus nurture
Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input. It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.
And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases of 40 to 100 per cent.
"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad movement involving governments and the private sector", says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK government's Department for International Development. "It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry people."
Weed killer
In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.
The most widespread new technique is farming without ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season crops that kill them.
Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming by accumulating carbon in the soil.
"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater productivity, increased income and a better environment," said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."
Correspondence about this story should be directed to latestnews@newscientist.com
https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325
> >> So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally > >> noxious substances? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >> > > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765 pearl - 15 Jan 2004 16:04 GMT Correction*
> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not > enough arable land remaining on the plant 'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes. (New Internationalist, May, 1995)' IOW,the land used to grow grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates <excluding grazing/silage/hay> [grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...." -- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of, Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California
(822mt / 6,000*m = 0.137* tonnes total grain per person, per year.) SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually providing the equivalent in grain for (642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 1.37t =) ~930.72* million, instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people. When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80% of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up. Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption of livestock products.
> to grow sufficient foodstuffs > for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses > due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I > don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard, > but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks. They shouldn't be.
Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar 1-17-01
Farmers across the developing world are throwing away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable" farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring on millions of farms.
The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex, says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past decade and that farming without tilling is among the most widely adopted forms.
Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."
Nature versus nurture
Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input. It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.
And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases of 40 to 100 per cent.
"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad movement involving governments and the private sector", says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK government's Department for International Development. "It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry people."
Weed killer
In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.
The most widespread new technique is farming without ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season crops that kill them.
Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming by accumulating carbon in the soil.
"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater productivity, increased income and a better environment," said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."
Correspondence about this story should be directed to latestnews@newscientist.com
https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:21:50 -0700, pearl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> > > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
> > to grow sufficient foodstuffs > > for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > >> > > > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765 pearl - 15 Jan 2004 16:08 GMT Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..
> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not > enough arable land remaining on the plant 'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes. (New Internationalist, May, 1995)' IOW,the land used to grow grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates <excluding grazing/silage/hay> [grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...." -- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of, Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California
(822mt / 6,000m = 0.137 tonnes total grain per person, per year.) SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually providing the equivalent in grain for (642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 0.137t =) ~937.22 million, instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people. When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80% of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up. Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption of livestock products.
> to grow sufficient foodstuffs > for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses > due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I > don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard, > but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks. They shouldn't be.
Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar 1-17-01
Farmers across the developing world are throwing away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable" farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring on millions of farms.
The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex, says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past decade and that farming without tilling is among the most widely adopted forms.
Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."
Nature versus nurture
Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input. It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.
And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases of 40 to 100 per cent.
"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad movement involving governments and the private sector", says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK government's Department for International Development. "It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry people."
Weed killer
In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.
The most widespread new technique is farming without ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season crops that kill them.
Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming by accumulating carbon in the soil.
"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater productivity, increased income and a better environment," said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."
Correspondence about this story should be directed to latestnews@newscientist.com
https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325
> > "Marky" <lightone@bresnanspamsucks.net> wrote in message > > news:pan.2004.01.12.03.00.41.489329.118@bresnanspamsucks.net... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >> > > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765 usual suspect - 15 Jan 2004 18:32 GMT Chelsea Ditz wrote:
> Oh dear. Ok, third time correct.. Glad to see some things never change. Keep trying, Chelsea. It amuses me to no end.
Fredrick L. Rice - 15 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT > Oh dear. Ok, third time correct.. Nope. You filthy diseased slut: you can never get it right.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT > > Oh dear. Ok, third time correct.. > > Nope. Yes, foulmouthed liar
"Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment." http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Marky - 16 Jan 2004 10:51 GMT Not all livestock bred for slaughter is fed with cultivated grain (at least not year 'round). I cannot cite specific numbers, but here in the western states, large herds graze range. In many instances, that range land is not terrain that could be cultivated, both from topographic and irrigational points of view. I would suspect that this is not the scenario for the majority of slaughter herds, but I am curious as to how this consideration would shift the figures.
> Oh dear. Ok, third time correct.. > [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] >> >> > >> >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
 Signature remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies. I fart in Darl McBride's general direction. Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings. Rust is good--it eliminates dents.
pearl - 16 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT > Not all livestock bred for slaughter is fed with cultivated grain (at > least not year 'round). I cannot cite specific numbers, but here in the > western states, large herds graze range. In many instances, that range > land is not terrain that could be cultivated, both from topographic and > irrigational points of view. Range land need not be cultivated. Simply shifting arable land use from feed-grain to human-edible foods will eliminate the need for grazing (currently straddling about 60% of the eleven western states). That would be a _very good_ thing. See; http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter3.html , http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter6.html , and http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter4.html .
> I would suspect that this is not the > scenario for the majority of slaughter herds, Indeed it isn't.
> but I am curious as to how > this consideration would shift the figures. 'On lands where feed grain is produced, soil loss averages 13 tons per hectare per year. Pasture lands are eroding at a slower pace, at an average of 6 tons per hectare per year. But erosion may exceed 100 tons on severely overgrazed pastures, and 54 percent of U.S. pasture land is being overgrazed. ..' http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html
'At least 50 percent of U.S. wetlands have been lost since colonial times, along with 60 million acres of long-leafed pine forests in the southeastern coastal plain and nearly 90 percent of all natural prairie areas in the Midwest and in the Canadian grain belt. Loss of vital organic matter and soil nutrients to erosion costs U.S. and Canadian farmers more than $2 billion yearly in lost production.
Deteriorating Water Quality North American surface waters--lakes, rivers, streams and estuaries--may be cleaner than they were 25 years ago, but progress in combating pollution has been slower than experts expected. As a consequence, fish populations are increasingly imperiled. Scientists claim some 364 species of North American freshwater fish either have been extinguished or are endangered as a direct result of the loss of riverine habitats to human activities. In addition, 43 percent of the continent's freshwater mussel species and subspecies have either disappeared or are in trouble.
Groundwater aquifers have fared little better. Out of 124,000 wells sampled in the United States, 24,000 of them had elevated concentrations of nitrates, with nearly 9,000 exceeding EPA safe limits for drinking water. At the same time that aquifers are becoming more polluted, they are also being drained dry from overuse or misuse.
Endangered Ecosystems A number of North America's most diverse and productive ecosystems are endangered. Besides virgin forests, which have been virtually eliminated, wetlands, tall-grass prairies and oak savannas have all declined precipitously during the past 200 years. The National Biological Service reports that the United States has 126 "imperiled areas"--most of them in the eastern half of the nation--that have lost more than 70 percent of their natural habitats. The loss of vital habitats has translated into species declines on an unprecedented scale. The U.S. government has listed more than 950 plant and animal species as endangered or threatened. Nearly 4,000 more (3 percent of all North American species) are candidates for listing.'
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/worldvu.html
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 17:00 GMT >> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not >> enough arable land remaining on the plant [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates ><excluding grazing/silage/hay> I am confused.
I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry people could pay for food etc.
Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story, below) The lands used to be productive in the hands of white farmers. Then they were confiscated and given to blacks, who did not take care of the land properly and are now starving.
How is it the fault of my meat eating habit that these blacks are now starving.
Should I give up my meat eating and instead send grains to these people to reward them for confiscating white land?
i who prefers to eat his meat
Once a Breadbasket, Zimbabwe Today Can't Feed Itself Politics, Drought, AIDS Bring A Severe Food Shortage; Aid Is Coming Up Short
By ROGER THUROW Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
PUPU, Zimbabwe -- There will be no traditional Christmas goat roasting on a spit here this year, and no Christmas chickens, either. The prospect of Christmas beer dried up long ago, along with the supplies of sorghum used for brewing.
The big holiday helpings of corn meal will be smaller than usual, for corn, the nation's staple food, is the scarcest commodity of all.
"We don't have enough food to really celebrate this year," says Luka Philip Ngwenya. "Christmas will just come and go like any other day."
For most people, that will mean a small ration of corn meal, supplemented with the roasted Mopani caterpillars and dried wild fruit that have helped keep villagers alive for the past couple of months.
Mr. Ngwenya, a 63-year-old peasant farmer, stretched out under a dying Msasa tree in one of the hungriest places in one of the hungriest countries in the world. He waited patiently, along with hundreds of his neighbors, for the monthly distribution of food from the U.N.'s World Food Program and the aid organization, World Vision. DOW JONES REPRINTS This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. To order presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients or customers, use the Order Reprints tool at the bottom of any article or visit: www.djreprints.com. ? See a sample reprint in PDF format ? Order a reprint of this article now.
On that day, 4,008 people were fed -- 70% of the local population. Throughout Zimbabwe, international humanitarian agencies are gearing up to feed more than six million people, which is more than half of the entire nation. That makes Zimbabwe, proportionally at least, the neediest recipient of food aid in the world.
The feeding of such multitudes is a surprising sight in a country that several years ago was selling up to 500,000 metric tons of surplus food to the WFP for distribution to starving people elsewhere. Now, it receives 500,000 tons of food aid. Zimbabwe today is home to many of the same factors, natural and man-made, that are propelling an increase in the number of hungry people world-wide -- even though more food is being produced than ever before.
A scorching drought has taken a toll here. But the situation has been exacerbated by politics. President Robert Mugabe, in the face of rising opposition, pushed a fast-track land reform that confiscated white-owned commercial farms and redistributed the property to loyal supporters of his Zanu-PF party. Many of the new owners were inexperienced in running large agribusinesses and food production has fallen dramatically.
In Christmases past, as recently as four or five years ago, when Zimbabwe was a breadbasket of Africa, this was a time of communal feasting and Christian celebration. But now, most families don't have enough for themselves, let alone for sharing. Rampant food shortages and an inflation rate soaring toward 700% have made goats and chickens too expensive to eat.
"Even if we have a chicken for a special meal, it is better to sell it for money to buy other food," says Lahlekile Mpofu, a skinny, elderly woman who opens up a ragged plastic bag to receive her ration of split peas.
She and others came to this distribution last week hoping there might be a Christmas present of a bit more food than usual. Instead, organizers announced they would actually be getting less, as the standard ration of corn meal was cut in half to 11 pounds. The pipeline of international food aid into the country is growing thin, the hungry were told, so corn-meal rations were reduced this month to make supplies stretch until the next harvest in April or May.
"What can we do? We have no choice," Mrs. Mpofu says with a shrug. "Half a loaf is better than none."
The drought is into its third year in some rural places such as Pupu. HIV/AIDS has stricken one-third of Zimbabwe's adults and is devastating the ranks of productive farm workers. So many people are dying that one of the few thriving industries is funerals. The county's largest funeral company announced last week that it would be opening five new parlors around the country, prompting speculation that it might even seek a listing on the Zimbabwe Stock Exchange.
Today only a couple of hundred of the 4,500 confiscated farms are still fully functioning. Harvests of food staples plummeted by as much as 90%, livestock herds dwindled and production of the main cash crop, tobacco, slumped badly.
The resulting dearth of foreign currency has caused shortages of seed, fertilizer and fuel, which in turn have led to a drop in production on the peasant farms. Unemployment, which has soared to 70%, combines with the inflation rate to make whatever food is available too expensive for most of the population. A goat now costs as much as the equivalent of $200, which would nearly consume a teacher's monthly salary. Human-rights groups have charged that the ruling party has doled out food that is being produced locally in exchange for electoral support.
In October, the U.S.-based Human Rights Watch released a report documenting examples of residents being forced to display a Zanu-PF party membership card before being given some government grain. Those that didn't went hungry, the group says.
"Zimbabwe stands alone as how one person can ruin a country," says Tony Hall, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed crimes against humanity."
Mr. Mugabe has dismissed such criticism, as well as the financial and travel sanctions imposed by the U.S. and Europe against him, as the actions of rich, white nations that don't want to see a black African country succeed. His government rarely issues visas to foreign correspondents, branding them agents of Western critics. Reporters who do slip into the country must report clandestinely and are unable to question government officials. In the past, Mr. Mugabe, who led Zimbabwe to independence in 1980, has blamed his troubles on former colonial master Britain for not supporting land reform earlier. Britain has said that Mr. Mugabe corrupted the process by rewarding the party faithful.
Addressing a party conference earlier this month, Mr. Mugabe defended his government's seizure of commercial farms for redistribution to black Zimbabweans. "Our people are overjoyed, the land is ours," he told his followers, according to local press reports of the conference. "We are now the rulers and owners of Zimbabwe."
January to April are the toughest months in Zimbabwe as food stocks from the previous spring's harvest are exhausted. During that period earlier this year, the international community fed seven million of Zimbabwe's 12 million people. Now, the numbers are inching up to that mark again, as hunger also takes hold among unemployed urban residents and the resettled farmers.
At the same time, the pipeline of food aid coming into the country is getting thinner. After two years of sending food to Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Ethiopia and other African nations, donor fatigue seems to be setting in. Humanitarian-aid agencies are finding donations aren't keeping pace with all the competing demands.
In Zimbabwe, the crisis has deteriorated rapidly. While neighboring countries such as Zambia and Malawi, which were also stricken by drought, have recovered as the weather has improved, Zimbabwe, with its political and economic turmoil, hasn't.
In December, the WFP had enough cereals, mainly corn meal, to meet only 49% of estimated requirements, which is why it went to half-rations. By March, given current donor pledges and scheduled shipments, it estimates it will be able to meet only 25% of cereal requirements and 19% of staples such as beans and peas. It takes about two months for food donations to be shipped to Zimbabwe, and at the moment, there is little scheduled to arrive in April. The WFP is trying to generate more donations of food or money for Zimbabwe. If it doesn't, rations will continue to get smaller to stretch out the food that is in the pipeline.
This puts the U.S. in the quandary of responding to a humanitarian crisis in a country led by a government it has stridently criticized, somewhat like the situation in North Korea. Even though the U.S. has pushed to isolate the Mugabe government, it has sent aid to the country. Since 2002, the U.S. has donated 437,000 metric tons of food to Zimbabwe.
One group that hasn't received much international aid so far are farmers on the resettled lands in Zimbabwe. International aid agencies say some large donors have been reluctant to have their money and food go to these farmers because the donors don't want to support Mr. Mugabe's land program. The government, in turn, hasn't cooperated with aid agencies seeking to do a needs survey on those lands.
The U.S. and the European Union, the two largest donors of food to Zimbabwe, say they are monitoring the situation there and will continue to respond to humanitarian need.
Next year's harvest may not offer much relief. Even if the weather cooperates, the corn production in Zimbabwe isn't expected to exceed this year's harvest of about 800,000 tons. Already, the international aid community in the U.S. and Europe is penciling in a 1 million-ton deficit for 2004.
In the western area of the country around Pupu, the outlook is bleak. The rains are late, seeds are scarce and many animals once used for plowing have died from a lack of food and water. The yield from last April's meager harvest began running out in August, forcing many people to survive on tea, wild fruit and the Mopani caterpillars, which in good times are eaten as a snack, not as sustenance. The WFP and World Vision, which fed this area during the lean months last year, returned again in November.
"If they didn't come back, people would be dying," says Siphatisiwe Ncube while waiting in line for food.
Field monitors of international aid agencies report scattered cases of desperate farmers eating their seeds rather than waiting for optimal planting conditions. Under the Msasa tree in Pupu, Mr. Ngwenya and a dozen other peasant farmers say they haven't resorted to that.
But are they tempted?
"Oh, yes," they shout in unison.
While the people waited patiently under a scorching noonday sun for their rations of corn, split peas and cooking oil, the village dogs bided their time too. When the last bag of food aid had been carried away, the dogs moved in to lick up any of the corn meal or peas that fell to the ground and escaped the brooms of the sweepers.
"This is really a sign of hunger," says Robinah Mulenga, a WFP official at the distribution as she watched two brown dogs lap up stray corn meal. "African dogs usually eat what is left over from the family meals. But now nothing is left over, so even the dogs are hungry."
Other signs of growing desperation noted by aid workers in the country: men leaving their drought-choked farms to pan for gold, women heading to the cities to work as prostitutes, young people sneaking across the border to find work in the neighboring countries, particularly South Africa.
On food distribution day, the parched soccer field of the Pupu primary school was covered with hundreds of bags filled with food from all over the world. From one of the goalposts hung a sign explaining the rations: 11 pounds of corn per person, 4 pounds of peas, and 3 pounds of the corn-soya blend.
Another banner posted at a corner of the field said: "Food provided to the people of Zimbabwe by WFP in collaboration with World Vision to restore hope, alleviate suffering and save lives."
"This is just about food. People must come in normal clothes, no political T-shirts," said Zvidzai Maburutse, World Vision's deputy director of relief in Zimbabwe. Last year, aid agencies suspended distributions in other parts of the country when local politicians tried to turn the handouts to their own benefit.
At this distribution, 35 tons of food was handed out without incident. Mrs. Ncube, barefoot and in a blue dress, walked two hours to collect her share, but she worries it won't be enough to feed a family of 11 for a month. As she waited her turn, she chewed on a small piece of dried wild fruit. "It gives you energy for several hours," she said.
What is her Christmas wish? "More corn meal, please," she says.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT > >> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not > >> enough arable land remaining on the plant [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I am confused. You must be. I was responding to your statement "There simply is not enough arable land remaining on the planet to grow sufficient foodstuffs for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. " I've shown you that there is more than enough arable land on the planet to feed the human population.
> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production > capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry > people could pay for food etc. 'Analyses of world hunger, done in the 1970s and 1980s by food economists such as Susan George, William Murdoch, and Francis Moore Lappe, aptly described the Western food system as a giant "Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for those sectors of the world's population who can pay the most. These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries lack the resources to feed themselves.
With its vast capacity to absorb resources, the Western animal- centered system converts many poor countries into appendages which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food for themselves. Low, abundance-induced global market prices for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites to turn away from production of staple food crops in favor of exports, including cattle and non-food crops such as cotton and rubber. Beef requires vast resources, but is profitable, and in high demand in the West. The U.S. accounts for 40 percent of all world beef imports.
Third World livestock production enriches a small domestic elite but does little to help feed the local population. An extreme example is Brazil, where extensive cattle-ranching has been augmented since the 1960s by large-scale feed-production. Forced to give up staple food production, peasants have become hired hands on large farms, or have migrated to the cities in search of work. While the cattle and the feed for cattle, chickens, and other animals are exported, the relative shortage of traditional staples drives up basic food prices, devastating the poor. The trend to substitute feed grains like sorghum for food grains like corn has spread throughout Latin America. ..' http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/articles/july94karian.htm
> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white > lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Should I give up my meat eating and instead send grains to these > people to reward them for confiscating white land? "Zimbabwe stands alone as how one person can ruin a country," says Tony Hall, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed crimes against humanity."
> i > who prefers to eat his meat Why?
<..
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 18:42 GMT >> >> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse. There simply is not >> >> enough arable land remaining on the plant [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > unwanted plant growth. " I've shown you that there is more than > enough arable land on the planet to feed the human population. Now you are confused. I made no such statement, ever!!!
>> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production >> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for > those sectors of the world's population who can pay the most. of course. you pay, you eat.
> These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths > that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food > for themselves. Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh, India and Africa...
> Low, abundance-induced global market prices > for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites > to turn away from production of staple food crops in favor of > exports, including cattle and non-food crops such as cotton and > rubber. So, then, you admit that food is cheap and hunger is not due to scarcity.
>> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white >> lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed > crimes against humanity." It is just politically incorrect to say that Zimbabweans ruined their country collectively. Would smack of disdain towards blacks. But yet it's true. Mugabe facilitated land confiscation, but it is the new black owners who could not make use of the land.
>> who prefers to eat his meat > > Why? Because I like it.
i
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 20:47 GMT > >> > "Marky" <lightone@bresnanspamsucks.net> wrote in message <..>
> Now you are confused. I made no such statement, ever!!! I must have been. Apologies.
> >> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production > >> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > of course. you pay, you eat. Why 'of course'? People can always grow their own food as well as harvest wild-growing plant-foods, providing the land and wild habitat is available for them to do so.
> > These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths > > that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh, 'Many', not 'all' work to grow feed for livestock.
'Many indebted countries promote the export of coffee, bananas, flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that can pay down their loans. The chief beneficiaries of these policies have been large corporations, foreign investors and large landowners at the cost of small farmers. The excessive promotion of exports to the detriment of food crops through the IMF?s structural adjustment programs has resulted in much of the best agricultural land in the world to grow commodities such as cotton, sisal, tea, tobacco, sugar cane, and cocoa, items which are non-food products or are only marginally nutritious, but for which there is a large market. http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature s1.htm
Bangladesh owes the IMF and World Bank US$6.67 billion.[52] http://www.wdm.org.uk/cambriefs/debt/stateunrest3/unrest3j.htm
Bangladesh Major agricultural products are rice, jute, wheat, potato, pulses, sugarcane, tea, tobacco etc. Tea, leather and frozen shrimp are also major foreign exchange earners. ' http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/bangladesh/intro/
> India 'Mr Mehta said countries such as South Korea, Japan, Indonesia and China were looking to India to source their oilmeal needs for compound feed.
China produces 50 million tonnes (mt) of compound feed annually, Japan produces 25 mt, Korea 14 mt and Indonesia 5 mt. Oilmeals make up 20-25 per cent of the compound feed, he said.
Use for compound feed was seen rising on demand for poultry meat across the globe. These are signs of economic revival, an exporter said.
Demand will not be confined just to soyameal. We see a good demand for groundnut meal and rapeseed meal also, Mr Mehta said. ' http://www.poultrysolutions.com/pserv/DetailedNews?news_id=591
'Soyameal exports from India used to be around 2.2-2.3 million tonnes every year. However, last year, such exports declined to 1.7 million tonnes following sharp reduction in domestic bean crop owing to drought conditions.
Assured exports of soyameal to EU can potentially benefit soyabean growers here, .. ' http://www.poultrysolutions.com/pserv/DetailedNews?news_id=468
> and Africa... 'Millions of acres of potentially productive farmland is used to pasture cattle, an extremely inefficient use of land, water and energy, but one for which there is a market in wealthy countries. "Even while thousands of people were dying each day from famine in Ethiopia in 1984", writes Jeremy Rifkin in the Guardian, "Ethiopia was using some of its agricultural land to produce linseed cake, cottonseed cake and rapeseed meal for export to the UK and other European nations as feed for livestock." Millions of acres of third world land are now being used exclusively to produce feed for European livestock. ..' http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature s1.htm
> > Low, abundance-induced global market prices > > for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So, then, you admit that food is cheap and hunger is not due to > scarcity. Food is -relatively- cheap on the -global markets-. Scarcity occurs because land is used to produce more profitable goods for export.
> >> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white > >> lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > it's true. Mugabe facilitated land confiscation, but it is the new > black owners who could not make use of the land. That place has gone to the mad dogs.
> >> who prefers to eat his meat > > > > Why? > > Because I like it. Think you could live without it?
Fredrick L. Rice - 15 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT >>>"Ignoramus12172" <ignoramus12172@NOSPAM.12172.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I must have been. You always were, and still are.
You f.cking hole.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 21:23 GMT Jonathan Ball, posing as some "Fredrick L. Rice"
"You are mentally ill ~~jonnie_the_woman_hater~~." http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 21:27 GMT >> > "Ignoramus12172" <ignoramus12172@NOSPAM.12172.invalid> wrote in message > news:bu6gum$d5a$0@pita.alt.net... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I must have been. Apologies. no problem.
>> >> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production >> >> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > as well as harvest wild-growing plant-foods, providing the > land and wild habitat is available for them to do so. well, not everyone owns land.
And growing your own food is not that easy, and yes I have done it. So it is silly to presume that everyone can grow their own food. Food markets are there fr a reason.
>> > These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths >> > that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 'Many', not 'all' work to grow feed for livestock. Which is, pretty much, edible by humans. see thebangladesh example
> 'Many indebted countries promote the export of coffee, bananas, > flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > also major foreign exchange earners. ' > http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/bangladesh/intro/ all edible stuff, rice, potatoes wheat etc.
>> India > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Japan produces 25 mt, Korea 14 mt and Indonesia 5 mt. Oilmeals > make up 20-25 per cent of the compound feed, he said. 50 mt of feed in a 1.2 billion population is not much, and quite possible a lot is used internally anyway. Just 80 lbs per person per year.
> Use for compound feed was seen rising on demand for poultry meat > across the globe. These are signs of economic revival, an exporter said. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 1.7 million tonnes following sharp reduction in domestic bean > crop owing to drought conditions. a miniscule amount, about 2.5 lbs per indian person
> Assured exports of soyameal to EU can potentially benefit soyabean > growers here, .. ' [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > export to the UK and other European nations as feed for > livestock." too bad he forgot their civil war
> Millions of acres of third world land are now being > used exclusively to produce feed for European livestock. ..' does not mean that they cause hunger this way.
> http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature s1.htm > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Food is -relatively- cheap on the -global markets-. Scarcity occurs > because land is used to produce more profitable goods for export. but cheap food could be imported.
>> >> who prefers to eat his meat >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Think you could live without it? I know I could, as I lived without meat for a year. Did not like it. See no reason to go backto it.
i
Jonathan Ball - 15 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT >>>>'Analyses of world hunger, done in the 1970s and 1980s by food >>>>economists such as Susan George, William Murdoch, and Francis >>>>Moore Lappe, Frances Lappe is not an economist. I doubt the other two are, either. No real economist disparages markets.
>>>>aptly described the Western food system as a giant >>>>"Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So it is silly to presume that everyone can grow their own food. Food > markets are there fr a reason. Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own food. Most of the sanctimonious "vegans", of which she is one, do not grow ANY of their own food. Lesley the Irish prostitute (seriously) says she grows some of hers, but she doesn't grow anything close to what she consumes; it's a minute fraction of boutique stuff.
>>>>These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths >>>>that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food >>>>for themselves. Bullshit.
>>>Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that >>can pay down their loans. That is, the foreign exchange they borrowed earlier in order for the socialist robbers whom Lesley adores to live like royalty.
>>The chief beneficiaries of these policies >>have been large corporations, foreign investors and large landowners [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > i Ignoramus12172 - 16 Jan 2004 03:02 GMT > Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony > posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hers, but she doesn't grow anything close to what she > consumes; it's a minute fraction of boutique stuff. Well, growing one's own food is a great idea and I plan on doing the same thing this spring. Some people are just nuts about food, but that does not mean that growing your own stuff is bad. You get free fresh food, what can be better? Plus I have a kid, who will hopefully benefit from seeing food grown, etc, lest he will think that food grows in supermarkets.
i
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 03:30 GMT >>Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony >>posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > same thing this spring. Some people are just nuts about food, but that > does not mean that growing your own stuff is bad. Not in the least. I grow a little bit of mine, and I'd like to grow more if I had room. However, I don't tell a lot of whopping lies about damned near surviving on the food I grow, the way that fuckwitted prostitute Lesley does.
> You get free fresh > food, what can be better? Plus I have a kid, who will hopefully > benefit from seeing food grown, etc, lest he will think that food > grows in supermarkets. > > i Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 04:58 GMT <snip.
> the way that fuckwitted > prostitute Lesley jonnie -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would use "prostitute" as an insult? Libertarians support legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as people providing a service to willing customers. You obviously are not a libertarian, and are certainly a misogynist.
(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever actually a prostitute. We all know jonnie makes these things up out of whole cloth. It's just interesting how his choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real political beliefs).
Rat
pearl - 16 Jan 2004 09:54 GMT <..>
> (No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever > actually a prostitute. No way.
> We all know jonnie makes these > things up out of whole cloth. It's just interesting how his > choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real > political beliefs). It demonstrates what's going on in that tiny dank mind.
usual suspect - 16 Jan 2004 14:31 GMT >>(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever >>actually a prostitute. > > No way. Couldn't get any of the lads to pay you a few pence, eh?
<snip
pearl - 16 Jan 2004 14:44 GMT > Couldn't get any of the lads to pay you a few pence, eh? "All cruelty springs from weakness." (Seneca, 4BC-AD65)
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 16:20 GMT Lesley the Irish whore wrote:
> <..> > >>(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever >>actually a prostitute. > > No way. That's a lie. You have been convicted several times of prostitution.
Ignoramus28064 - 16 Jan 2004 17:10 GMT > Lesley the Irish whore wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's a lie. You have been convicted several times of > prostitution. What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.
i
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT <snip>
> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need. That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I agree with.
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT > <snip> > >> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need. > > That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I > agree with. You necessarily equivocate on the word "legitimate". That's because you are a slimy sophist.
Barry Gold - 18 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT >> <snip> >> >>> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need. and...
>> That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I >> agree with. and...
>You necessarily equivocate on the word "legitimate". >That's because you are a slimy sophist. ================================ = Please don't feed the trolls = ================================
 Signature I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all.
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:52 GMT >>Lesley the Irish whore wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need. That doesn't oblige me to admire it.
I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for money. That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange. I admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines of a committed relationship, preferably marriage. I find uncommitted, casual sexual encounters, like prostitution, to be not morally wrong, but morally corrosive to the participants. It damages their morality in other indirect ways, and lessens them.
I accept, though, that you can't make people be good by outlawing everything they might do that is bad. As a general rule, I believe the harm that results from some mutually consensual interaction must be such that unconnected third parties might reasonably be seen as harmed by it, before the activity might be seen as eligible to be outlawed. Prostitution fails that test.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT <snip>
> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for > money. No, you don't. If you really supported their moral right, you would not regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive".
> That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange. I > admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines of > a committed relationship, preferably marriage. I find uncommitted, > casual sexual encounters, like prostitution, to be not morally wrong, > but morally corrosive to the participants. It damages their morality in > other indirect ways, and lessens them. My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude. Do you believe every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded morally? Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual personal relations on others? If both participants consent, and neither participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally corrosive" in this exchange, any more than in hairdressing, massage, personal training in sports, etc. You do not have the right to define others' morality in areas which are fully consensual.
No libertarian would believe you do. You are no libertarian.
> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good <snip> So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"?
No libertarian would believe that.
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 19:54 GMT > <snip> > >> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for >> money. > > No, you don't. Yes, I do.
> If you really supported their moral right, you would not > regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive". Non sequitur, and utterly false.
>> That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange. I >> admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude. No to numbers 1 and 3. Not rightwing, and not at all judgmental. You clearly don't know what judgmental means. Also no to number 2 in the pejorative sense you mean it; not moralistic, rather moral.
> Do you believe > every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his > wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded > morally? What a stupid question.
> Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual > personal relations on others? I don't. A recognition of why it's not good to do that is what leads me to libertarianism. Your inability to understand the nuances of the word "respect" is what leads you into error.
> If both participants consent, and neither > participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally > corrosive" in this exchange, False.
> You do not have the right to define > others' morality in areas which are fully consensual. I'm not defining *others'* morality, you stupid f.ck. You are getting badly confused, in exactly the way someone who is stuck in one of Kohlberg's lower stages of moral development does.
First of all, you morally retarded a.shole, "fully consensual" does not, by itself, delineate the proper limits of what is moral and legal. Two persons might "fully consent" to settle a dispute by staging a duel with submachineguns on Main Street at high noon. We will quite properly stop them.
Secondly, you ignorant skank, even in something like prostitution, which I believe should be legal, I *still* have an absolute right to pass moral judgment on it. You are wrong.
> No libertarian would believe you do. Lots of liberatarians do.
> You are no libertarian. I am.
>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good > > <snip> > So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"? In my opinion - the only one that counts - yes.
> No libertarian would believe that. Lots of libertarians do. That you don't know any only shows that you are too clannish with your fellow statists.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 20:08 GMT Interesting header -- the very bias which shows your non-libertarian attitude is showing again.
Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?
Rat
<snip
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 20:15 GMT > Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker? Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 21:46 GMT >> Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?
> Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt. *LOL* You're a prude and a fraud, jonnie. Rush Limbaugh has rotted your brain.
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 21:58 GMT >>> Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker? > >> Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt. > > *LOL* You're a reprobate.
usual suspect - 16 Jan 2004 23:46 GMT degene-Rat spewed:
>> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for >> money. > > No, you don't. If you really supported their moral right, you would not > regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive". Not necessarily. Many libertarians disagree with others on various issues ranging from religion to morality to specific means to political ends (e.g., taxation, abortion, etc.). Nowhere in libertarianism is it required that one approve or regard all forms of behavior equally or at all. Many libertarians disapprove of the use of drugs like marijuana but nevertheless favor decriminalization for many reasons. Prostitution is a similar issue. Many libertarians are of the possession that it should be decriminalized despite their concerns about the side-effects. The underlying principle of decriminalization to libertarians isn't that it's good, right, or even necessarily moral, but that it should be legal insofar as it's a voluntary act between two (or more) consenting adults.
>> That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange. I >> admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude. I don't think it's any of the above. Many libertarians favor decriminalization of marijuana, gambling, and prostitution even though they may never engage in or approve of those acts. You are confusing LIBERTINE for LIBERTARIAN. The two are NOT the same.
> Do you believe > every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his > wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded > morally? I know we're only just into the third week of the year, but you've just won "Idiot of the Year" for that irrelevant comparison. I doubt anyone can top you now. Congrats!
> Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual > personal relations on others? Your confusion comes from misunderstanding what libertarianism is. His view is that prostitution should be legal even though he doesn't approve of it personally. This is entirely consistent with the libertarian philosophy. Your view is not. Your view is libertine.
> If both participants consent, and neither > participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally > corrosive" in this exchange, any more than in hairdressing, massage, > personal training in sports, etc. You do not have the right to define > others' morality in areas which are fully consensual. Yes he does. He is not forbidding anyone from doing anything, much less making or enforcing laws against it.
> No libertarian would believe you do. You are no libertarian. He is libertarian. You are libertine.
>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good > > <snip> > So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"? Good and bad is a matter of personal opinion, not necessarily a matter of law.
> No libertarian would believe that. Many do. Not all libertarians are morally neutral, and many are libertine.
-------- 1. What is libertarianism?
Libertarians want a win-win world of peace and plenty. And we believe that the only way to get it is through self-government... NOT others- government.
Self-government is the combination of personal responsibility and tolerance. Responsibility means you govern yourself. Tolerance means you don't force your values on peaceful, honest people.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/libertarian/faq/ ---------
Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors?
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 23:55 GMT > degene-Rat spewed: > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > He is libertarian. You are libertine. But only feels she and people who agree with her should have the right to be.
>>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to > disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors? ...while supporting their right to engage in it if they wish.
This shows again that Karen Winter is a disgusting statist. If she disapproves of something, as she disapproves of meat eating, it is inconceivable to her that the people engaging in the disapproved activity might be left alone; she can ONLY conceive of imposing her views *and* behavior on others if she disapproves of what they're doing.
usual suspect - 17 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT >>>> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex >>>> for money. [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > But only feels she and people who agree with her should have the right > to be. I've noticed that about her. She has quite an authoritarian streak about her.
>>>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > ...while supporting their right to engage in it if they wish. Exactly. That's not only the model of libertarianism, it's the model of tolerance. Polar opposite of the totalitarianism displayed by degene-Rat.
> This shows again that Karen Winter is a disgusting statist. If she > disapproves of something, as she disapproves of meat eating, it is > inconceivable to her that the people engaging in the disapproved > activity might be left alone; she can ONLY conceive of imposing her > views *and* behavior on others if she disapproves of what they're doing. You are correct. The first quote below is indicative of a libertarian position on an issue, much like your own regarding prostitution.
I don't think any rational person "supports" abortion. I do believe people who want it should have access to it... -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/2ghra
Her intolerance, though, comes through clear as day on other issues. While she concedes that abortion isn't necessarily a good thing, she accepts and condones the killing of pre-born humans while feeling violated and outraged over the deaths of non-human species at every stage of development. She's misanthropic. Consider the following in contrast to above:
If it is real, I let them know how I feel about it, but I don't threaten physically. My latest was seeing a stuffed coyote in a local hunters' shop in a mall. I went in and told them it made me very distressed to be forced to see the dead body as I walked by, and that I felt it was a violation of my freedom to have it shoved in my face, rather than decently hidden inside where only patrons of their store would see it -- sort of a pornography of death being forced on unwilling victims passing by. -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/3ypkn
I think she's hypocritical in speaking her mind on the deaths of animals while condoning the deaths of little humans. Regardless, her intolerance of others is noted.
(What follows that particular quotation is very perverted, but she seems familiar enough with the issue to speak about it. I don't know if I should ask how she knows of such things.)
She also said in that thread:
I do have every right to tell a shop-owner I don't like what's in his window... -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/2lprt
So, too, do you have a right to tell others what you think of prostitution and its effects on individuals and society. It doesn't change the label of your one's political philosophy unless one seeks to coerce others through force of law to follow one's own sensibilities and values. It's clear that she does that, and that you don't.
ipse dixit - 16 Jan 2004 23:57 GMT >Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to >disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors? He's a troll, and you said as much yourself before he whipped you into shape and made you his water boy. Remember this?
"Good morning, persona non grata.
You ARE a troll. I gave you a chance to engage me (and others) in a friendly discussion. Rick Etter was man enough to accept. You, on the other hand, declined the opportunity to let your wisdom outshine your snide and crude remarks.
As for our search for "support", I think you're misinformed on the definition of that word. Just like you were about "syllogism". And just like you are about your understanding of logical fallacies.
We do not waste our time here. Exchanging recipes and information is hardly a waste of time. The only time I've wasted is in playing with you, because you are irrelevant.
I don't live in a fantasy world. I'm not the one who incessantly thinks of strangers and what they do and say while changing diapers. I don't carry on discussions with my wife about how other people clean vegetables.
Do you honestly think for a moment that calling someone dirty little names will make them change his/her mind and agree with you? Do you think that your sordid posts here are making a difference in anyone else's life (other than your own and your wife's)? We're not wrapped up in your world, you're wrapped up in ours." usual suspect 2002-04-30 05
pearl - 17 Jan 2004 01:48 GMT > You have been convicted several times of prostitution. A complete and utter lie.
Jonathan Ball - 17 Jan 2004 02:03 GMT >>You have been convicted several times of prostitution. > > A complete and utter lie. No, it isn't.
pearl - 17 Jan 2004 02:23 GMT > >>You have been convicted several times of prostitution. > > > > A complete and utter lie. > > No, it isn't. Yes, it is. It is a foul and contemptible lie. Shame on you.
how miserable must one be to put so much effort into spreading negative energy? grow up and worry about yourself. your efforts are not effective or appreciated. http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Rat & Swan - 17 Jan 2004 07:40 GMT >>You have been convicted several times of prostitution.
> A complete and utter lie. Obviously -- jonnie said it about someone he dislikes. He says the same kind of stupid lies about me all the time. No one believes him.
Rat
usual suspect - 17 Jan 2004 12:49 GMT degene-Rat wrote:
>> A complete and utter lie. > > Obviously -- jonnie said it about someone he dislikes. > He says the same kind of stupid lies about me all the time. What lie has he said about you?
> No one believes him. Speak for yourself.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:36 GMT <snip>
>>We all know jonnie makes these >>things up out of whole cloth. It's just interesting how his >>choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real >>political beliefs).
> It demonstrates what's going on in that tiny dank mind. Indeed. His choice of insults demonstrates a truly repulsive list of his prejudices and hatred.
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 16:08 GMT > <snip. > >> the way that fuckwitted prostitute Lesley > > jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would > use "prostitute" as an insult? Plenty.
> Libertarians support > legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as > people providing a service to willing customers. As do I. That doesn't mean I hold them in high moral regard. Believing people have a right to trade in certain things doesn't mean I have moral respect for them if they do. The ACLU and I defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie; that hardly obligates us to admire Nazis.
You f.cking moron.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:32 GMT >> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would >> use "prostitute" as an insult?
> Plenty. None I ever read or spoke with.
>> Libertarians support >> legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as >> people providing a service to willing customers.
> As do I. That doesn't mean I hold them in high moral regard. As long as they provide a legitimate service and treat their customers well, why not? No libertarian would express the attitude you do here -- nor would any anarchist.
<snip>
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:41 GMT >>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would >>> use "prostitute" as an insult? > >> Plenty. > > None I ever read or spoke with. Argumentum ad ignorantiam. That's just classic!
>>> Libertarians support >>> legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As long as they provide a legitimate service and treat > their customers well, why not? Irrelevant. The division is perfectly rational: those things I am willing to accept, on priniciple, need not coincide perfectly with those things I admire and consider moral and healthy.
> No libertarian would > express the attitude you do here False. I am a libertarian, and I expressed it.
You clearly do not understand what libertarianism is about, and you never have, which is why you abandoned your juvenile, naive dabbling with it when the implications of it began to scare you.
> nor would any anarchist. There is no such thing as an anarchist.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 19:38 GMT >>>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would >>>> use "prostitute" as an insult?
>>> Plenty.
>> None I ever read or spoke with.
> Argumentum ad ignorantiam. That's just classic! No, argument from information. Please provide a list of, or a link to, these "plenty" of libertarians who have used "prostitute" as an insult.
<snip>
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 19:55 GMT >>>>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would >>>>> use "prostitute" as an insult? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No, argument from information. No, argumentum ad ignorantiam. You are ignorant of libertarians who think something, so you conclude that none do. That is classic argumentum ad ignorantiam; just textbook.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT <snip>
> You are ignorant of libertarians who > think something, so you conclude that none do. Then enlighten us all, rather than bluster. Please provide a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have used "prostitute" as an insult.
I'll leave you the necessary space:
Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 20:14 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have > used "prostitute" as an insult. Not my burden or job, and it wouldn't change the fact you STUPIDLY committed a massive logical fallacy.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 21:44 GMT <snip>
>> Then enlighten us all, rather than bluster. Please provide >> a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have >> used "prostitute" as an insult.
> Not my burden or job, Than you
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