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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2004

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High Levels of Arsenic Found in Chickens

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pearl - 11 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT
'.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and
the United States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety
Inspection Service sampled the liver tissue of 5,000 chickens
to estimate the arsenic concentrations of the muscle tissue,
which is the part of the chicken that is most consumed. They
found arsenic concentrations in young chickens to be three-
to four-fold higher than in other poultry or meat sampled.

Arsenic is an approved animal feed supplement that farmers
use to control intestinal parasites in chickens. Of the 5,000
chicken samples, 3,611 were young chickens and 1,582
were mature chickens. By 1997, 99 percent of chicken was
consumed as a young chicken.
..
Researchers calculated that a person consuming approximately
two ounces of chicken daily might ingest 3.6 micrograms to 5.2
micrograms of inorganic arsenic. People who eat more chicken
than this are ingesting up to 10-times higher levels of arsenic.
Chronic exposure of inorganic arsenic, or 10 micrograms to 40
micrograms per day, is associated with skin, respiratory and
bladder cancers. .'

http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
Marky - 12 Jan 2004 03:00 GMT
So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious
substances?

> '.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and the United
> States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety Inspection Service
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765


Signature

remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies.
I fart in Darl McBride's general direction.
Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings.
Rust is good--it eliminates dents.

pearl - 12 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT
> So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious
> substances?

*NO*.

> > '.. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health and the United
> > States Department of Agriculture's Food Safety Inspection Service
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >
> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
Jim Webster - 12 Jan 2004 06:58 GMT
Some cross posts cut

> > So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally noxious
> > substances?
>
> *NO*.

Pearl wants to increase grain production for the third world by using
organic production techniques which cut production by 30%

Jim Webster
William A. Noyes - 12 Jan 2004 10:12 GMT
> Pearl wants to increase grain production for the third world by using
> organic production techniques which cut production by 30%
>
> Jim Webster

While your comment may or may not refer to a plan of Pearl's,
it does NOT address the issue of the extra As in the table bound
chicken meat.

Remember this is crossposted so we are not all familiar
with your or hers past positions. And no matter what
they are, the doesn't address the issue only the various
biases.
Marky - 15 Jan 2004 06:37 GMT
But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
enough arable land remaining on the plant to grow sufficient foodstuffs
for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses
due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth.  I
don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard,
but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks.

>> So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally
>> noxious substances?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> >
>> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765


Signature

remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies.
I fart in Darl McBride's general direction.
Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings.
Rust is good--it eliminates dents.

pearl - 15 Jan 2004 14:47 GMT
> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
> enough arable land remaining on the plant

'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million
tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes.
(New Internationalist, May, 1995)'  IOW,the land used to grow
grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.

"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a
given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the
food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates
<excluding grazing/silage/hay>
[grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough
meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year,
whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.)
eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given
quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as
it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by
humans in the form of livestock products...."
-- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal
agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science
Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of,
Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California

(822mt / 600m = 1.37 tonnes total grain per person, per year.)
SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually
providing the equivalent in grain for
(642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 1.37t =) ~93.72 million,
instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80%
of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up.
Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other
resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption
of livestock products.

> to grow sufficient foodstuffs
> for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses
> due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I
> don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard,
> but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks.

They shouldn't be.

Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar
1-17-01

Farmers across the developing world are throwing
away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable"
farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring
on millions of farms.

The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable
agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday
The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex,
says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as
a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions
of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been
the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past
decade and that farming without tilling is among the most
widely adopted forms.

Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we
can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."

Nature versus nurture

Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade
inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input.
It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the
soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.

And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third
world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are
having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases
of 40 to 100 per cent.

"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from
being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad
movement involving governments and the private sector",
says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects
in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK
government's Department for International Development.
"It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often
improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most
helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their
families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry
people."

Weed killer

In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past
farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans
rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel
Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.

The most widespread new technique is farming without
ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see
a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season
crops that kill them.

Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs
on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality
and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming
by accumulating carbon in the soil.

"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater
productivity, increased income and a better environment,"
said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in
southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely
adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."

Correspondence about this story should be directed to
latestnews@newscientist.com

https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325

> >> So we should all eat beans and corn that are sprayed with equally
> >> noxious substances?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> >> >
> >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 16:04 GMT
Correction*

> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
> enough arable land remaining on the plant

'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million
tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes.
(New Internationalist, May, 1995)'  IOW,the land used to grow
grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.

"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a
given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the
food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates
<excluding grazing/silage/hay>
[grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough
meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year,
whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.)
eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given
quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as
it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by
humans in the form of livestock products...."
-- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal
agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science
Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of,
Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California

(822mt / 6,000*m = 0.137* tonnes total grain per person, per year.)
SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually
providing the equivalent in grain for
(642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 1.37t =) ~930.72* million,
instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80%
of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up.
Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other
resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption
of livestock products.

> to grow sufficient foodstuffs
> for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses
> due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I
> don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard,
> but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks.

They shouldn't be.

Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar
1-17-01

Farmers across the developing world are throwing
away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable"
farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring
on millions of farms.

The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable
agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday
The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex,
says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as
a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions
of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been
the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past
decade and that farming without tilling is among the most
widely adopted forms.

Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we
can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."

Nature versus nurture

Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade
inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input.
It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the
soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.

And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third
world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are
having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases
of 40 to 100 per cent.

"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from
being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad
movement involving governments and the private sector",
says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects
in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK
government's Department for International Development.
"It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often
improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most
helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their
families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry
people."

Weed killer

In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past
farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans
rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel
Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.

The most widespread new technique is farming without
ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see
a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season
crops that kill them.

Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs
on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality
and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming
by accumulating carbon in the soil.

"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater
productivity, increased income and a better environment,"
said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in
southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely
adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."

Correspondence about this story should be directed to
latestnews@newscientist.com

https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325

> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:21:50 -0700, pearl wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> >> >
> >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765

> > to grow sufficient foodstuffs
> > for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 16:08 GMT
Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..

> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
> enough arable land remaining on the plant

'Worldwide, between 1988-1990, humans consumed 822 million
tonnes of grain, while livestock consumed 642 million tonnes.
(New Internationalist, May, 1995)'  IOW,the land used to grow
grain for livestock could provide grain for ~ 4,680 million people.

"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a
given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the
food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates
<excluding grazing/silage/hay>
[grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough
meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year,
whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.)
eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given
quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as
it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by
humans in the form of livestock products...."
-- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal
agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science
Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of,
Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California

(822mt / 6,000m = 0.137 tonnes total grain per person, per year.)
SO, the 642 million tonnes of grain fed to livestock is actually
providing the equivalent in grain for
(642mt / 5 = 128.4 million tons. 128.4mt / 0.137t =) ~937.22 million,
instead of (potentially) providing grain for ~ 4,680 million people.
When the gross food value of meat is replaced by grain, 80%
of the land used to grow grain for livestock is still freed-up.
Thus, the best way to reduce pressure on arable land, (and other
resources, like water) is to reduce or eliminate the consumption
of livestock products.

> to grow sufficient foodstuffs
> for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to combat losses
> due to insects and resource competition from unwanted plant growth. I
> don't particularly enjoy the prospect of eating a chemist's smorgasboard,
> but 'organically' grown foods are prohibitively expensive for most folks.

They shouldn't be.

Farmers Throw Away Ploughs - Crop Yields Soar
1-17-01

Farmers across the developing world are throwing
away their ploughs in a dramatic example of "sustainable"
farming, a practice that is now sending crop yields soaring
on millions of farms.

The findings come from the largest ever study of sustainable
agriculture, released at a conference in London on Monday
The report's author, Jules Pretty of the University of Essex,
says sustainable agriculture is now defying its reputation as
a worthy enterprise with little chance of feeding millions
of starving people. He says sustainable farming has been
the most effective way of raising farm yields in the past
decade and that farming without tilling is among the most
widely adopted forms.

Pretty says the growth is very exciting: "If it spreads we
can make substantial inroads in reducing hunger."

Nature versus nurture

Sustainable agriculture deliberately lowers manmade
inputs such as chemicals, while maximising nature's input.
It replaces fertilisers with plants that fix nitrogen in the
soil and pesticides with natural enemies of pests.

And it is catching on. It now covers three per cent of third
world fields, an area the size of Italy. Its methods are
having big impacts on farm yields, with typical increases
of 40 to 100 per cent.

"Sustainable farming has grown in the past decade from
being the preserve of a few enthusiasts into a broad
movement involving governments and the private sector",
says Pretty, whose study collected data on 200 projects
in 52 countries and was commissioned by the UK
government's Department for International Development.
"It is cheap, uses locally available technology and often
improves the environment," he says. "Above all it most
helps the people who need it - poor farmers and their
families, who make up the majority of the world's hungry
people."

Weed killer

In Latin America, small farmers left behind by past
farming revolutions have seen yields of grain and beans
rise by two-thirds using "green" methods, says Miguel
Altieri of the University of California, Berkeley.

The most widespread new technique is farming without
ploughing. In Argentina a third of fields now never see
a plough - farmers get rid of weeds by planting off-season
crops that kill them.

Besides relieving them of one of the most tedious jobs
on the farm, abandoning the plough improves soil quality
and raises crop yields. It even helps curb global warming
by accumulating carbon in the soil.

"In a short time, farmers saw reduced costs and greater
productivity, increased income and a better environment,"
said Lauro Bassi, an agronomist from Santa Catarina in
southern Brazil, where zero-tillage has been widely
adopted "For us zero-tillage is like a social movement."

Correspondence about this story should be directed to
latestnews@newscientist.com

https://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999325

> > "Marky" <lightone@bresnanspamsucks.net> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.01.12.03.00.41.489329.118@bresnanspamsucks.net...
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >> >
> >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765
usual suspect - 15 Jan 2004 18:32 GMT
Chelsea Ditz wrote:
> Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..

Glad to see some things never change. Keep trying, Chelsea. It amuses me
to no end.
Fredrick L. Rice - 15 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT
> Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..

Nope.  You filthy diseased slut:  you can never get it
right.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT
> > Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..
>
> Nope.

Yes, foulmouthed liar

"Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment."
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Marky - 16 Jan 2004 10:51 GMT
Not all livestock bred for slaughter is fed with cultivated grain (at
least not year 'round).  I cannot cite specific numbers, but here in the
western states, large herds graze range.  In many instances, that range
land is not terrain that could be cultivated, both from topographic and
irrigational points of view.  I would suspect that this is not the
scenario for the majority of slaughter herds, but I am curious as to how
this consideration would shift the figures.

> Oh dear. Ok, third time correct..
>
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=7765


Signature

remove 'spamsucks' from mail addy for replies.
I fart in Darl McBride's general direction.
Be kind to animals--use proper seasonings.
Rust is good--it eliminates dents.

pearl - 16 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
> Not all livestock bred for slaughter is fed with cultivated grain (at
> least not year 'round).  I cannot cite specific numbers, but here in the
> western states, large herds graze range.  In many instances, that range
> land is not terrain that could be cultivated, both from topographic and
> irrigational points of view.

Range land need not be cultivated.  Simply shifting arable land use
from feed-grain to human-edible foods will eliminate the need for
grazing (currently straddling about 60% of the eleven western states).
That would be a _very good_ thing.  See;
http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter3.html ,
http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter6.html , and
http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter4.html .

> I would suspect that this is not the
> scenario for the majority of slaughter herds,

Indeed it isn't.

> but I am curious as to how
> this consideration would shift the figures.

'On lands where feed grain is produced, soil loss averages
13 tons per hectare per year. Pasture lands are eroding at
a slower pace, at an average of 6 tons per hectare per year.
But erosion may exceed 100 tons on severely overgrazed
pastures, and 54 percent of U.S. pasture land is being
overgrazed. ..'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html

'At least 50 percent of U.S. wetlands have been lost since
colonial times, along with 60 million acres of long-leafed
pine forests in the southeastern coastal plain and nearly
90 percent of all natural prairie areas in the Midwest and
in the Canadian grain belt. Loss of vital organic matter
and soil nutrients to erosion costs U.S. and Canadian farmers
more than $2 billion yearly in lost production.

Deteriorating Water Quality
North American surface waters--lakes, rivers, streams and
estuaries--may be cleaner than they were 25 years ago, but
progress in combating pollution has been slower than experts
expected. As a consequence, fish populations are
increasingly imperiled. Scientists claim some 364 species of
North American freshwater fish either have been extinguished
or are endangered as a direct result of the loss of riverine
habitats to human activities. In addition, 43 percent of the
continent's freshwater mussel species and subspecies have
either disappeared or are in trouble.

Groundwater aquifers have fared little better. Out of 124,000
wells sampled in the United States, 24,000 of them had
elevated concentrations of nitrates, with nearly 9,000
exceeding EPA safe limits for drinking water. At the same time
that aquifers are becoming more polluted, they are also being
drained dry from overuse or misuse.

Endangered Ecosystems
A number of North America's most diverse and productive
ecosystems are endangered. Besides virgin forests, which have
been virtually eliminated, wetlands, tall-grass prairies and oak
savannas have all declined precipitously during the past 200
years. The National Biological Service reports that the United
States has 126 "imperiled areas"--most of them in the eastern
half of the nation--that have lost more than 70 percent of their
natural habitats. The loss of vital habitats has translated into
species declines on an unprecedented scale. The U.S.
government has listed more than 950 plant and animal species
as endangered or threatened. Nearly 4,000 more (3 percent
of all North American species) are candidates for listing.'

http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/worldvu.html
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 17:00 GMT
>> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
>> enough arable land remaining on the plant
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates
><excluding grazing/silage/hay>

I am confused.

I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production
capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry
people could pay for food etc.

Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white
lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story,
below) The lands used to be productive in the hands of white
farmers. Then they were confiscated and given to blacks, who did not
take care of the land properly and are now starving.

How is it the fault of my meat eating habit that these blacks are now
starving.

Should I give up my meat eating and instead send grains to these
people to reward them for confiscating white land?

i
who prefers to eat his meat

Once a Breadbasket,
Zimbabwe Today
Can't Feed Itself
Politics, Drought, AIDS Bring
A Severe Food Shortage;
Aid Is Coming Up Short

By ROGER THUROW
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

PUPU, Zimbabwe -- There will be no traditional Christmas goat roasting
on a spit here this year, and no Christmas chickens, either. The
prospect of Christmas beer dried up long ago, along with the supplies
of sorghum used for brewing.

The big holiday helpings of corn meal will be smaller than usual, for
corn, the nation's staple food, is the scarcest commodity of all.

"We don't have enough food to really celebrate this year," says Luka
Philip Ngwenya. "Christmas will just come and go like any other day."

For most people, that will mean a small ration of corn meal,
supplemented with the roasted Mopani caterpillars and dried wild fruit
that have helped keep villagers alive for the past couple of months.

Mr. Ngwenya, a 63-year-old peasant farmer, stretched out under a dying
Msasa tree in one of the hungriest places in one of the hungriest
countries in the world. He waited patiently, along with hundreds of
his neighbors, for the monthly distribution of food from the U.N.'s
World Food Program and the aid organization, World Vision.
DOW JONES REPRINTS
This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. To order
presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients
or customers, use the Order Reprints tool at the bottom of any article
or visit: www.djreprints.com.  ? See a sample reprint in PDF format  ?
Order a reprint of this article now.

On that day, 4,008 people were fed -- 70% of the local
population. Throughout Zimbabwe, international humanitarian agencies
are gearing up to feed more than six million people, which is more
than half of the entire nation. That makes Zimbabwe, proportionally at
least, the neediest recipient of food aid in the world.

The feeding of such multitudes is a surprising sight in a country that
several years ago was selling up to 500,000 metric tons of surplus
food to the WFP for distribution to starving people elsewhere. Now, it
receives 500,000 tons of food aid. Zimbabwe today is home to many of
the same factors, natural and man-made, that are propelling an
increase in the number of hungry people world-wide -- even though more
food is being produced than ever before.

A scorching drought has taken a toll here. But the situation has been
exacerbated by politics. President Robert Mugabe, in the face of
rising opposition, pushed a fast-track land reform that confiscated
white-owned commercial farms and redistributed the property to loyal
supporters of his Zanu-PF party. Many of the new owners were
inexperienced in running large agribusinesses and food production has
fallen dramatically.

In Christmases past, as recently as four or five years ago, when
Zimbabwe was a breadbasket of Africa, this was a time of communal
feasting and Christian celebration. But now, most families don't have
enough for themselves, let alone for sharing. Rampant food shortages
and an inflation rate soaring toward 700% have made goats and chickens
too expensive to eat.

"Even if we have a chicken for a special meal, it is better to sell it
for money to buy other food," says Lahlekile Mpofu, a skinny, elderly
woman who opens up a ragged plastic bag to receive her ration of split
peas.

She and others came to this distribution last week hoping there might
be a Christmas present of a bit more food than usual. Instead,
organizers announced they would actually be getting less, as the
standard ration of corn meal was cut in half to 11 pounds. The
pipeline of international food aid into the country is growing thin,
the hungry were told, so corn-meal rations were reduced this month to
make supplies stretch until the next harvest in April or May.

"What can we do? We have no choice," Mrs. Mpofu says with a
shrug. "Half a loaf is better than none."

The drought is into its third year in some rural places such as
Pupu. HIV/AIDS has stricken one-third of Zimbabwe's adults and is
devastating the ranks of productive farm workers. So many people are
dying that one of the few thriving industries is funerals. The
county's largest funeral company announced last week that it would be
opening five new parlors around the country, prompting speculation
that it might even seek a listing on the Zimbabwe Stock Exchange.

Today only a couple of hundred of the 4,500 confiscated farms are
still fully functioning. Harvests of food staples plummeted by as much
as 90%, livestock herds dwindled and production of the main cash crop,
tobacco, slumped badly.

The resulting dearth of foreign currency has caused shortages of seed,
fertilizer and fuel, which in turn have led to a drop in production on
the peasant farms. Unemployment, which has soared to 70%, combines
with the inflation rate to make whatever food is available too
expensive for most of the population. A goat now costs as much as the
equivalent of $200, which would nearly consume a teacher's monthly
salary. Human-rights groups have charged that the ruling party has
doled out food that is being produced locally in exchange for
electoral support.

In October, the U.S.-based Human Rights Watch released a report
documenting examples of residents being forced to display a Zanu-PF
party membership card before being given some government grain. Those
that didn't went hungry, the group says.

"Zimbabwe stands alone as how one person can ruin a country," says
Tony Hall, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture
Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed crimes
against humanity."

Mr. Mugabe has dismissed such criticism, as well as the financial and
travel sanctions imposed by the U.S. and Europe against him, as the
actions of rich, white nations that don't want to see a black African
country succeed. His government rarely issues visas to foreign
correspondents, branding them agents of Western critics. Reporters who
do slip into the country must report clandestinely and are unable to
question government officials. In the past, Mr. Mugabe, who led
Zimbabwe to independence in 1980, has blamed his troubles on former
colonial master Britain for not supporting land reform
earlier. Britain has said that Mr. Mugabe corrupted the process by
rewarding the party faithful.

Addressing a party conference earlier this month, Mr. Mugabe defended
his government's seizure of commercial farms for redistribution to
black Zimbabweans. "Our people are overjoyed, the land is ours," he
told his followers, according to local press reports of the
conference. "We are now the rulers and owners of Zimbabwe."

January to April are the toughest months in Zimbabwe as food stocks
from the previous spring's harvest are exhausted. During that period
earlier this year, the international community fed seven million of
Zimbabwe's 12 million people. Now, the numbers are inching up to that
mark again, as hunger also takes hold among unemployed urban residents
and the resettled farmers.

At the same time, the pipeline of food aid coming into the country is
getting thinner. After two years of sending food to Iraq and
Afghanistan, as well as Ethiopia and other African nations, donor
fatigue seems to be setting in. Humanitarian-aid agencies are finding
donations aren't keeping pace with all the competing demands.

In Zimbabwe, the crisis has deteriorated rapidly. While neighboring
countries such as Zambia and Malawi, which were also stricken by
drought, have recovered as the weather has improved, Zimbabwe, with
its political and economic turmoil, hasn't.

In December, the WFP had enough cereals, mainly corn meal, to meet
only 49% of estimated requirements, which is why it went to
half-rations. By March, given current donor pledges and scheduled
shipments, it estimates it will be able to meet only 25% of cereal
requirements and 19% of staples such as beans and peas. It takes about
two months for food donations to be shipped to Zimbabwe, and at the
moment, there is little scheduled to arrive in April. The WFP is
trying to generate more donations of food or money for Zimbabwe. If it
doesn't, rations will continue to get smaller to stretch out the food
that is in the pipeline.

This puts the U.S. in the quandary of responding to a humanitarian
crisis in a country led by a government it has stridently criticized,
somewhat like the situation in North Korea. Even though the U.S. has
pushed to isolate the Mugabe government, it has sent aid to the
country. Since 2002, the U.S. has donated 437,000 metric tons of food
to Zimbabwe.

One group that hasn't received much international aid so far are
farmers on the resettled lands in Zimbabwe. International aid agencies
say some large donors have been reluctant to have their money and food
go to these farmers because the donors don't want to support
Mr. Mugabe's land program. The government, in turn, hasn't cooperated
with aid agencies seeking to do a needs survey on those lands.

The U.S. and the European Union, the two largest donors of food to
Zimbabwe, say they are monitoring the situation there and will
continue to respond to humanitarian need.

Next year's harvest may not offer much relief. Even if the weather
cooperates, the corn production in Zimbabwe isn't expected to exceed
this year's harvest of about 800,000 tons. Already, the international
aid community in the U.S. and Europe is penciling in a 1 million-ton
deficit for 2004.

In the western area of the country around Pupu, the outlook is
bleak. The rains are late, seeds are scarce and many animals once used
for plowing have died from a lack of food and water. The yield from
last April's meager harvest began running out in August, forcing many
people to survive on tea, wild fruit and the Mopani caterpillars,
which in good times are eaten as a snack, not as sustenance. The WFP
and World Vision, which fed this area during the lean months last
year, returned again in November.

"If they didn't come back, people would be dying," says Siphatisiwe
Ncube while waiting in line for food.

Field monitors of international aid agencies report scattered cases of
desperate farmers eating their seeds rather than waiting for optimal
planting conditions. Under the Msasa tree in Pupu, Mr. Ngwenya and a
dozen other peasant farmers say they haven't resorted to that.

But are they tempted?

"Oh, yes," they shout in unison.

While the people waited patiently under a scorching noonday sun for
their rations of corn, split peas and cooking oil, the village dogs
bided their time too. When the last bag of food aid had been carried
away, the dogs moved in to lick up any of the corn meal or peas that
fell to the ground and escaped the brooms of the sweepers.

"This is really a sign of hunger," says Robinah Mulenga, a WFP
official at the distribution as she watched two brown dogs lap up
stray corn meal. "African dogs usually eat what is left over from the
family meals. But now nothing is left over, so even the dogs are
hungry."

Other signs of growing desperation noted by aid workers in the
country: men leaving their drought-choked farms to pan for gold, women
heading to the cities to work as prostitutes, young people sneaking
across the border to find work in the neighboring countries,
particularly South Africa.

On food distribution day, the parched soccer field of the Pupu primary
school was covered with hundreds of bags filled with food from all
over the world. From one of the goalposts hung a sign explaining the
rations: 11 pounds of corn per person, 4 pounds of peas, and 3 pounds
of the corn-soya blend.

Another banner posted at a corner of the field said: "Food provided to
the people of Zimbabwe by WFP in collaboration with World Vision to
restore hope, alleviate suffering and save lives."

"This is just about food. People must come in normal clothes, no
political T-shirts," said Zvidzai Maburutse, World Vision's deputy
director of relief in Zimbabwe. Last year, aid agencies suspended
distributions in other parts of the country when local politicians
tried to turn the handouts to their own benefit.

At this distribution, 35 tons of food was handed out without
incident. Mrs. Ncube, barefoot and in a blue dress, walked two hours
to collect her share, but she worries it won't be enough to feed a
family of 11 for a month. As she waited her turn, she chewed on a
small piece of dried wild fruit. "It gives you energy for several
hours," she said.

What is her Christmas wish? "More corn meal, please," she says.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT
> >> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
> >> enough arable land remaining on the plant
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I am confused.

You must be.  I was responding to your statement "There simply
is not enough arable land remaining on the planet to grow sufficient
foodstuffs for earth's population without resorting to chemicals to
combat losses due to insects and resource competition from
unwanted plant growth. "  I've shown you that there is more than
enough arable land on the planet to feed the human population.

> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production
> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry
> people could pay for food etc.

'Analyses of world hunger, done in the 1970s and 1980s by food
economists such as Susan George, William Murdoch, and Francis
Moore Lappe, aptly described the Western food system as a giant
"Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for
those sectors of the world's population who can pay the most.
These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths
that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries
lack the resources to feed themselves.

With its vast capacity to absorb resources, the Western animal-
centered system converts many poor countries into appendages
which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food
for themselves. Low, abundance-induced global market prices
for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites
to turn away from production of staple food crops in favor of
exports, including cattle and non-food crops such as cotton and
rubber. Beef requires vast resources, but is profitable, and in
high demand in the West. The U.S. accounts for 40 percent of
all world beef imports.

Third World livestock production enriches a small domestic
elite but does little to help feed the local population. An extreme
example is Brazil, where extensive cattle-ranching has been
augmented since the 1960s by large-scale feed-production.
Forced to give up staple food production, peasants have
become hired hands on large farms, or have migrated to the
cities in search of work. While the cattle and the feed for cattle,
chickens, and other animals are exported, the relative shortage
of traditional staples drives up basic food prices, devastating
the poor. The trend to substitute feed grains like sorghum for
food grains like corn has spread throughout Latin America.
..'
http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/articles/july94karian.htm

> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white
> lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Should I give up my meat eating and instead send grains to these
> people to reward them for confiscating white land?

"Zimbabwe stands alone as how one person can ruin a country," says
Tony Hall, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture
Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed
crimes against humanity."

> i
> who prefers to eat his meat

Why?

<..
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 18:42 GMT
>> >> But on a global scale, that is the only recourse.  There simply is not
>> >> enough arable land remaining on the plant
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> unwanted plant growth. "  I've shown you that there is more than
> enough arable land on the planet to feed the human population.

Now you are confused. I made no such statement, ever!!!

>> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production
>> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for
> those sectors of the world's population who can pay the most.

of course. you pay, you eat.

> These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths
> that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food
> for themselves.

Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh,
India and Africa...

> Low, abundance-induced global market prices
> for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites
> to turn away from production of staple food crops in favor of
> exports, including cattle and non-food crops such as cotton and
> rubber.

So, then, you admit that food is cheap and hunger is not due to
scarcity.

>> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white
>> lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Organization and the WFP. Mr. Mugabe, he says, "has committed
> crimes against humanity."

It is just politically incorrect to say that Zimbabweans ruined their
country collectively. Would smack of disdain towards blacks. But yet
it's true. Mugabe facilitated land confiscation, but it is the new
black owners who could not make use of the land.

>> who prefers to eat his meat
>
> Why?

Because I like it.

i
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 20:47 GMT
> >> > "Marky" <lightone@bresnanspamsucks.net> wrote in message
<..>
> Now you are confused. I made no such statement, ever!!!

I must have been.  Apologies.

> >> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production
> >> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> of course. you pay, you eat.

Why 'of course'?  People can always grow their own food
as well as harvest wild-growing plant-foods, providing the
land and wild habitat is available for them to do so.

> > These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths
> > that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh,

'Many', not 'all' work to grow feed for livestock.

'Many indebted countries promote the export of coffee, bananas,
flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that
can pay down their loans. The chief beneficiaries of these policies
have been large corporations, foreign investors and large landowners
at the cost of small farmers. The excessive promotion of exports to
the detriment of food crops through the IMF?s structural adjustment
programs has resulted in much of the best agricultural land in the
world to grow commodities such as cotton, sisal, tea, tobacco,
sugar cane, and cocoa, items which are non-food products or are
only marginally nutritious, but for which there is a large market.
http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature
s1.htm


Bangladesh owes the IMF and World Bank US$6.67 billion.[52]
http://www.wdm.org.uk/cambriefs/debt/stateunrest3/unrest3j.htm

Bangladesh
Major agricultural products are rice, jute, wheat, potato, pulses,
sugarcane, tea, tobacco etc. Tea, leather and frozen shrimp are
also major foreign exchange earners. '
http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/bangladesh/intro/

> India

'Mr Mehta said countries such as South Korea, Japan, Indonesia
and China were looking to India to source their oilmeal needs for
compound feed.

China produces 50 million tonnes (mt) of compound feed annually,
Japan produces 25 mt, Korea 14 mt and Indonesia 5 mt. Oilmeals
make up 20-25 per cent of the compound feed, he said.

Use for compound feed was seen rising on demand for poultry meat
across the globe. These are signs of economic revival, an exporter said.

Demand will not be confined just to soyameal. We see a good
demand for groundnut meal and rapeseed meal also, Mr Mehta said. '
http://www.poultrysolutions.com/pserv/DetailedNews?news_id=591

'Soyameal exports from India used to be around 2.2-2.3 million
tonnes every year. However, last year, such exports declined to
1.7 million tonnes following sharp reduction in domestic bean
crop owing to drought conditions.

Assured exports of soyameal to EU can potentially benefit soyabean
growers here, .. '
http://www.poultrysolutions.com/pserv/DetailedNews?news_id=468

> and Africa...

'Millions of acres of potentially productive farmland is used to
pasture cattle, an extremely inefficient use of land, water and
energy, but one for which there is a market in wealthy countries.
"Even while thousands of people were dying each day from
famine in Ethiopia in 1984", writes Jeremy Rifkin in the
Guardian, "Ethiopia was using some of its agricultural land to
produce linseed cake, cottonseed cake and rapeseed meal for
export to the UK  and other European nations as feed for
livestock." Millions of acres of third world land are now being
used exclusively to produce feed for European livestock. ..'
http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature
s1.htm


> > Low, abundance-induced global market prices
> > for basic food crops encourage Third World land-owning elites
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So, then, you admit that food is cheap and hunger is not due to
> scarcity.

Food is -relatively- cheap on the -global markets-.  Scarcity occurs
because land is used to produce more profitable goods for export.

> >> Example: blacks are now starving in Africa after confiscating white
> >> lands. (see a Wall Street Journal article detaining their story,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> it's true. Mugabe facilitated land confiscation, but it is the new
> black owners who could not make use of the land.

That place has gone to the mad dogs.

> >> who prefers to eat his meat
> >
> > Why?
>
> Because I like it.

Think you could live without it?
Fredrick L. Rice - 15 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT
>>>"Ignoramus12172" <ignoramus12172@NOSPAM.12172.invalid> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I must have been.

You always were, and still are.

You f.cking hole.
pearl - 15 Jan 2004 21:23 GMT
Jonathan Ball, posing as some "Fredrick L. Rice"

"You are mentally ill ~~jonnie_the_woman_hater~~."
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Ignoramus12172 - 15 Jan 2004 21:27 GMT
>> > "Ignoramus12172" <ignoramus12172@NOSPAM.12172.invalid> wrote in message
> news:bu6gum$d5a$0@pita.alt.net...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I must have been.  Apologies.

no problem.

>> >> I thought that the cause of hunger was not lack of food production
>> >> capacity, but wars, sieges, lack of any substance that the hungry
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> as well as harvest wild-growing plant-foods, providing the
> land and wild habitat is available for them to do so.

well, not everyone owns land.

And growing your own food is not that easy, and yes I have done it.
So it is silly to presume that everyone can grow their own food. Food
markets are there fr a reason.

>> > These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths
>> > that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> 'Many', not 'all' work to grow feed for livestock.

Which is, pretty much, edible by humans. see thebangladesh example

> 'Many indebted countries promote the export of coffee, bananas,
> flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> also major foreign exchange earners. '
> http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/bangladesh/intro/

all edible stuff, rice, potatoes wheat etc.

>> India
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Japan produces 25 mt, Korea 14 mt and Indonesia 5 mt. Oilmeals
> make up 20-25 per cent of the compound feed, he said.

50 mt of feed in a 1.2 billion population is not much, and quite
possible a lot is used internally anyway. Just 80 lbs per person per
year.

> Use for compound feed was seen rising on demand for poultry meat
> across the globe. These are signs of economic revival, an exporter said.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 1.7 million tonnes following sharp reduction in domestic bean
> crop owing to drought conditions.

a miniscule amount, about 2.5 lbs per indian person

> Assured exports of soyameal to EU can potentially benefit soyabean
> growers here, .. '
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> export to the UK  and other European nations as feed for
> livestock."

too bad he forgot their civil war

> Millions of acres of third world land are now being
> used exclusively to produce feed for European livestock. ..'

does not mean that they cause hunger this way.

> http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishdaily/ktmpost/2002/jun/jun21/feature
s1.htm

>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Food is -relatively- cheap on the -global markets-.  Scarcity occurs
> because land is used to produce more profitable goods for export.

but cheap food could be imported.

>> >> who prefers to eat his meat
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Think you could live without it?

I know I could, as I lived without meat for a year. Did not like
it. See no reason to go backto it.

i
Jonathan Ball - 15 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT
>>>>'Analyses of world hunger, done in the 1970s and 1980s by food
>>>>economists such as Susan George, William Murdoch, and Francis
>>>>Moore Lappe,

Frances Lappe is not an economist.  I doubt the other
two are, either.  No real economist disparages markets.

>>>>aptly described the Western food system as a giant
>>>>"Global Supermarket," where food commodities are produced for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> So it is silly to presume that everyone can grow their own food. Food
> markets are there fr a reason.

Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony
posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own
food.  Most of the sanctimonious "vegans", of which she
is one, do not grow ANY of their own food.  Lesley the
Irish prostitute (seriously) says she grows some of
hers, but she doesn't grow anything close to what she
consumes; it's a minute fraction of boutique stuff.

>>>>These analysts debunked certain key myths, including the myths
>>>>that there is a global food scarcity, and that most poor countries
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>>>which work to grow feed for livestock exports, rather than food
>>>>for themselves.

Bullshit.

>>>Hm, I was not aware of us importing lots of meat from Bangladesh,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>flowers and other cash crops in order to earn foreign exchange that
>>can pay down their loans.

That is, the foreign exchange they borrowed earlier in
order for the socialist robbers whom Lesley adores to
live like royalty.

>>The chief beneficiaries of these policies
>>have been large corporations, foreign investors and large landowners
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
>
> i
Ignoramus12172 - 16 Jan 2004 03:02 GMT
> Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony
> posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hers, but she doesn't grow anything close to what she
> consumes; it's a minute fraction of boutique stuff.

Well, growing one's own food is a great idea and I plan on doing the
same thing this spring. Some people are just nuts about food, but that
does not mean that growing your own stuff is bad. You get free fresh
food, what can be better? Plus I have a kid, who will hopefully
benefit from seeing food grown, etc, lest he will think that food
grows in supermarkets.

i
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 03:30 GMT
>>Interesting that Lesley, the real name of the phony
>>posing as "pearl", is advocating growing one's own
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> same thing this spring. Some people are just nuts about food, but that
> does not mean that growing your own stuff is bad.

Not in the least.  I grow a little bit of mine, and I'd
like to grow more if I had room.  However, I don't tell
a lot of whopping lies about damned near surviving on
the food I grow, the way that fuckwitted prostitute
Lesley does.

> You get free fresh
> food, what can be better? Plus I have a kid, who will hopefully
> benefit from seeing food grown, etc, lest he will think that food
> grows in supermarkets.
>
> i
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 04:58 GMT
<snip.
> the way that fuckwitted
> prostitute Lesley

jonnie -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
use "prostitute" as an insult?  Libertarians support
legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as
people providing a service to willing customers.  You
obviously are not a libertarian, and are certainly a
misogynist.

(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever
actually a prostitute.  We all know jonnie makes these
things up out of whole cloth.  It's just interesting how his
choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real
political beliefs).

Rat
pearl - 16 Jan 2004 09:54 GMT
<..>

> (No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever
> actually a prostitute.

No way.

> We all know jonnie makes these
> things up out of whole cloth.  It's just interesting how his
> choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real
> political beliefs).

It demonstrates what's going on in that tiny dank mind.
usual suspect - 16 Jan 2004 14:31 GMT
>>(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever
>>actually a prostitute.
>
> No way.

Couldn't get any of the lads to pay you a few pence, eh?

<snip
pearl - 16 Jan 2004 14:44 GMT
> Couldn't get any of the lads to pay you a few pence, eh?

"All cruelty springs from weakness." (Seneca, 4BC-AD65)
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 16:20 GMT
Lesley the Irish whore wrote:

> <..>
>
>>(No offense to Lesley -- I assume she is/was not ever
>>actually a prostitute.
>
> No way.

That's a lie.  You have been convicted several times of
prostitution.
Ignoramus28064 - 16 Jan 2004 17:10 GMT
> Lesley the Irish whore wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> That's a lie.  You have been convicted several times of
> prostitution.

What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.

i
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT
<snip>

> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.

That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I
agree with.

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT
> <snip>
>
>> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.
>
> That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I
> agree with.

You necessarily equivocate on the word "legitimate".
That's because you are a slimy sophist.
Barry Gold - 18 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
>> <snip>
>>
>>> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.

and...

>> That is the attitude a libertarian would express, and one I
>> agree with.

and...
>You necessarily equivocate on the word "legitimate".
>That's because you are a slimy sophist.

        ================================
        = Please don't feed the trolls =
        ================================
Signature

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.

Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:52 GMT
>>Lesley the Irish whore wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> What's wrong with prostitution? It fulfills a legitimate need.

That doesn't oblige me to admire it.

I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people
to trade sex for money.  That doesn't mean I admire the
participants in the exchange.  I admire people who keep
their sexual interactions within the confines of a
committed relationship, preferably marriage.  I find
uncommitted, casual sexual encounters, like
prostitution, to be not morally wrong, but morally
corrosive to the participants.  It damages their
morality in other indirect ways, and lessens them.

I accept, though, that you can't make people be good by
outlawing everything they might do that is bad.  As a
general rule, I believe the harm that results from some
mutually consensual interaction must be such that
unconnected third parties might reasonably be seen as
harmed by it, before the activity might be seen as
eligible to be outlawed.  Prostitution fails that test.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
<snip>
> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for
> money.

No, you don't.  If you really supported their moral right, you would not
regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive".

>  That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange.  I
> admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines of
> a committed relationship, preferably marriage.  I find uncommitted,
> casual sexual encounters, like prostitution, to be not morally wrong,
> but morally corrosive to the participants.  It damages their morality in
> other indirect ways, and lessens them.

My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude.  Do you believe
every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his
wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded
morally?  Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual
personal relations on others?  If both participants consent, and neither
participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally
corrosive" in this exchange, any more than in hairdressing, massage,
personal training in sports, etc.  You do not have the right to define
others' morality in areas which are fully consensual.

No libertarian would believe you do.  You are no libertarian.

> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good

<snip>
So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"?

No libertarian would believe that.

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 19:54 GMT
> <snip>
>
>> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for
>> money.
>
> No, you don't.

Yes, I do.

> If you really supported their moral right, you would not
> regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive".

Non sequitur, and utterly false.

>>  That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange.  I
>> admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude.

No to numbers 1 and 3.  Not rightwing, and not at all
judgmental.  You clearly don't know what judgmental
means.  Also no to number 2 in the pejorative sense you
mean it; not moralistic, rather moral.

> Do you believe
> every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his
> wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded
> morally?

What a stupid question.

> Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual
> personal relations on others?

I don't.  A recognition of why it's not good to do that
is what leads me to libertarianism.  Your inability to
understand the nuances of the word "respect" is what
leads you into error.

> If both participants consent, and neither
> participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally
> corrosive" in this exchange,

False.

> You do not have the right to define
> others' morality in areas which are fully consensual.

I'm not defining *others'* morality, you stupid f.ck.
You are getting badly confused, in exactly the way
someone who is stuck in one of Kohlberg's lower stages
of moral development does.

First of all, you morally retarded a.shole, "fully
consensual" does not, by itself, delineate the proper
limits of what is moral and legal.  Two persons might
"fully consent" to settle a dispute by staging a duel
with submachineguns on Main Street at high noon.  We
will quite properly stop them.

Secondly, you ignorant skank, even in something like
prostitution, which I believe should be legal, I
*still* have an absolute right to pass moral judgment
on it.  You are wrong.

> No libertarian would believe you do.

Lots of liberatarians do.

> You are no libertarian.

I am.

>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good
>
> <snip>
> So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"?

In my opinion - the only one that counts - yes.

> No libertarian would believe that.

Lots of libertarians do.  That you don't know any only
shows that you are too clannish with your fellow statists.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 20:08 GMT
Interesting header -- the very bias which shows your non-libertarian
attitude is showing again.

Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?

Rat

<snip
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 20:15 GMT
> Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?

Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 21:46 GMT
>> Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?

> Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt.

*LOL*  You're a prude and a fraud, jonnie.  Rush Limbaugh
has rotted your brain.

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 21:58 GMT
>>> Why would it be an insult to say I had been a professional sex worker?
>
>> Because virtuous people hold prostitutes in contempt.
>
> *LOL*

You're a reprobate.
usual suspect - 16 Jan 2004 23:46 GMT
degene-Rat spewed:
>> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex for
>> money.
>
> No, you don't.  If you really supported their moral right, you would not
> regard exercising that right as "morally corrosive".

Not necessarily. Many libertarians disagree with others on various
issues ranging from religion to morality to specific means to political
ends (e.g., taxation, abortion, etc.). Nowhere in libertarianism is it
required that one approve or regard all forms of behavior equally or at
all. Many libertarians disapprove of the use of drugs like marijuana but
nevertheless favor decriminalization for many reasons. Prostitution is a
similar issue. Many libertarians are of the possession that it should be
decriminalized despite their concerns about the side-effects. The
underlying principle of decriminalization to libertarians isn't that
it's good, right, or even necessarily moral, but that it should be legal
insofar as it's a voluntary act between two (or more) consenting adults.

>>  That doesn't mean I admire the participants in the exchange.  I
>> admire people who keep their sexual interactions within the confines
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> My, what a right-wing, moralistic, judgmental attitude.

I don't think it's any of the above. Many libertarians favor
decriminalization of marijuana, gambling, and prostitution even though
they may never engage in or approve of those acts. You are confusing
LIBERTINE for LIBERTARIAN. The two are NOT the same.

> Do you believe
> every customer who eats out in a restaurant instead of eating his
> wife's cooking (if he is lucky enough to have a wife ) is corroded
> morally?  

I know we're only just into the third week of the year, but you've just
won "Idiot of the Year" for that irrelevant comparison. I doubt anyone
can top you now. Congrats!

> Why do you wish to force your moral opinions on consensual
> personal relations on others?

Your confusion comes from misunderstanding what libertarianism is. His
view is that prostitution should be legal even though he doesn't approve
of it personally. This is entirely consistent with the libertarian
philosophy. Your view is not. Your view is libertine.

> If both participants consent, and neither
> participant feels the exchange is immoral, there is nothing "morally
> corrosive" in this exchange, any more than in hairdressing, massage,
> personal training in sports, etc.  You do not have the right to define
> others' morality in areas which are fully consensual.

Yes he does. He is not forbidding anyone from doing anything, much less
making or enforcing laws against it.

> No libertarian would believe you do.  You are no libertarian.

He is libertarian. You are libertine.

>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good
>
> <snip>
> So anyone involved in prostitution is being "bad"?

Good and bad is a matter of personal opinion, not necessarily a matter
of law.

> No libertarian would believe that.

Many do. Not all libertarians are morally neutral, and many are libertine.

--------
1. What is libertarianism?

   Libertarians want a win-win world of peace and plenty. And we believe
   that the only way to get it is through self-government... NOT others-
   government.

   Self-government is the combination of personal responsibility and
   tolerance. Responsibility means you govern yourself. Tolerance means
   you don't force your values on peaceful, honest people.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/libertarian/faq/
---------

Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to
disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors?
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 23:55 GMT
> degene-Rat spewed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> He is libertarian. You are libertine.

But only feels she and people who agree with her should
have the right to be.

>>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to
> disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors?

...while supporting their right to engage in it if they
wish.

This shows again that Karen Winter is a disgusting
statist.  If she disapproves of something, as she
disapproves of meat eating, it is inconceivable to her
that the people engaging in the disapproved activity
might be left alone; she can ONLY conceive of imposing
her views *and* behavior on others if she disapproves
of what they're doing.
usual suspect - 17 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT
>>>> I fully support the legal and moral *right* of people to trade sex
>>>> for money.
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> But only feels she and people who agree with her should have the right
> to be.

I've noticed that about her. She has quite an authoritarian streak about
her.

>>>> I accept, though, that you can't make people be good
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> ...while supporting their right to engage in it if they wish.

Exactly. That's not only the model of libertarianism, it's the model of
tolerance. Polar opposite of the totalitarianism displayed by degene-Rat.

> This shows again that Karen Winter is a disgusting statist.  If she
> disapproves of something, as she disapproves of meat eating, it is
> inconceivable to her that the people engaging in the disapproved
> activity might be left alone; she can ONLY conceive of imposing her
> views *and* behavior on others if she disapproves of what they're doing.

You are correct. The first quote below is indicative of a libertarian
position on an issue, much like your own regarding prostitution.

    I don't think any rational person "supports" abortion.  I
    do believe people who want it should have access to it...
    -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/2ghra

Her intolerance, though, comes through clear as day on other issues.
While she concedes that abortion isn't necessarily a good thing, she
accepts and condones the killing of pre-born humans while feeling
violated and outraged over the deaths of non-human species at every
stage of development. She's misanthropic. Consider the following in
contrast to above:

    If it is real, I let them know how I feel about it, but I don't
    threaten physically. My latest was seeing a stuffed coyote in a
    local hunters' shop in a mall.  I went in and told them it made
    me very distressed to be forced to see the dead body as I walked
    by, and that I felt it was a violation of my freedom to have it
    shoved in my face, rather than decently hidden inside where only
    patrons of their store would see it -- sort of a pornography of
    death being forced on unwilling victims passing by.
    -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/3ypkn

I think she's hypocritical in speaking her mind on the deaths of animals
while condoning the deaths of little humans. Regardless, her intolerance
of others is noted.

(What follows that particular quotation is very perverted, but she seems
familiar enough with the issue to speak about it. I don't know if I
should ask how she knows of such things.)

She also said in that thread:

    I do have every right to tell a shop-owner I don't like what's
    in his window...
    -- degene-RAT http://tinyurl.com/2lprt

So, too, do you have a right to tell others what you think of
prostitution and its effects on individuals and society. It doesn't
change the label of your one's political philosophy unless one seeks to
coerce others through force of law to follow one's own sensibilities and
values. It's clear that she does that, and that you don't.
ipse dixit - 16 Jan 2004 23:57 GMT
>Is Jon forcing his values on others, or simply exercising his right to
>disapprove of certain deleterious behaviors?

He's a troll, and you said as much yourself before he whipped
you into shape and made you his water boy. Remember this?

"Good morning, persona non grata.

You ARE a troll. I gave you a chance to engage me (and others) in a
friendly discussion. Rick Etter was man enough to accept. You, on the
other hand, declined the opportunity to let your wisdom outshine your
snide and crude remarks.

As for our search for "support", I think you're misinformed on the
definition of that word. Just like you were about "syllogism". And just
like you are about your understanding of logical fallacies.

We do not waste our time here. Exchanging recipes and information is
hardly a waste of time. The only time I've wasted is in playing with
you, because you are irrelevant.

I don't live in a fantasy world. I'm not the one who incessantly thinks
of strangers and what they do and say while changing diapers. I don't
carry on discussions with my wife about how other people clean
vegetables.

Do you honestly think for a moment that calling someone dirty little
names will make them change his/her mind and agree with you? Do you
think that your sordid posts here are making a difference in anyone
else's life (other than your own and your wife's)? We're not wrapped up
in your world, you're wrapped up in ours."
usual suspect  2002-04-30 05
pearl - 17 Jan 2004 01:48 GMT
> You have been convicted several times of prostitution.

A complete and utter lie.
Jonathan Ball - 17 Jan 2004 02:03 GMT
>>You have been convicted several times of prostitution.
>
> A complete and utter lie.

No, it isn't.
pearl - 17 Jan 2004 02:23 GMT
> >>You have been convicted several times of prostitution.
> >
> > A complete and utter lie.
>
> No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.  It is a foul and contemptible lie.  Shame on you.

how miserable must one be to put so much effort into
spreading negative energy?
grow up and worry about yourself.
your efforts are not effective or appreciated.
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html
Rat & Swan - 17 Jan 2004 07:40 GMT
>>You have been convicted several times of prostitution.

> A complete and utter lie.

Obviously -- jonnie said it about someone he dislikes.
He says the same kind of stupid lies about me all the time.
No one believes him.

Rat
usual suspect - 17 Jan 2004 12:49 GMT
degene-Rat wrote:
>> A complete and utter lie.
>
> Obviously -- jonnie said it about someone he dislikes.
> He says the same kind of stupid lies about me all the time.

What lie has he said about you?

> No one believes him.

Speak for yourself.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:36 GMT
<snip>

>>We all know jonnie makes these
>>things up out of whole cloth.  It's just interesting how his
>>choice of insults demonstrates he lies about his real
>>political beliefs).

> It demonstrates what's going on in that tiny dank mind.

Indeed.  His choice of insults demonstrates a truly repulsive list
of his prejudices and hatred.

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 16:08 GMT
> <snip.
>
>> the way that fuckwitted prostitute Lesley
>
> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
> use "prostitute" as an insult?

Plenty.

> Libertarians support
> legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as
> people providing a service to willing customers.

As do I.  That doesn't mean I hold them in high moral
regard.  Believing people have a right to trade in
certain things doesn't mean I have moral respect for
them if they do.  The ACLU and I defended the right of
Nazis to march in Skokie; that hardly obligates us to
admire Nazis.

You f.cking moron.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 18:32 GMT
>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
>> use "prostitute" as an insult?

> Plenty.

None I ever read or spoke with.

>> Libertarians support
>> legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as
>> people providing a service to willing customers.

> As do I.  That doesn't mean I hold them in high moral regard.

As long as they provide a legitimate service and treat
their customers well, why not?  No libertarian would
express the attitude you do here -- nor would any anarchist.

<snip>

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 18:41 GMT
>>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
>>> use "prostitute" as an insult?
>
>> Plenty.
>
> None I ever read or spoke with.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam.  That's just classic!

>>> Libertarians support
>>> legalization of sex work, and regard prostitutes as
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> As long as they provide a legitimate service and treat
> their customers well, why not?

Irrelevant.  The division is perfectly rational:  those
things I am willing to accept, on priniciple, need not
coincide perfectly with those things I admire and
consider moral and healthy.

> No libertarian would
> express the attitude you do here

False.  I am a libertarian, and I expressed it.

You clearly do not understand what libertarianism is
about, and you never have, which is why you abandoned
your juvenile, naive dabbling with it when the
implications of it began to scare you.

> nor would any anarchist.

There is no such thing as an anarchist.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 19:38 GMT
>>>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
>>>> use "prostitute" as an insult?

>>> Plenty.

>> None I ever read or spoke with.

> Argumentum ad ignorantiam.  That's just classic!

No, argument from information.  Please provide a list
of, or a link to, these "plenty" of libertarians who have used
"prostitute" as an insult.

<snip>

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 19:55 GMT
>>>>> jon -- what genuine libertarian (or Libertarian) would
>>>>> use "prostitute" as an insult?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No, argument from information.

No, argumentum ad ignorantiam.  You are ignorant of
libertarians who think something, so you conclude that
none do.  That is classic argumentum ad ignorantiam;
just textbook.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT
<snip>

>  You are ignorant of libertarians who
> think something, so you conclude that none do.

Then enlighten us all, rather than bluster.  Please provide
a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have
used "prostitute" as an insult.

I'll leave you the necessary space:

Rat
Jonathan Ball - 16 Jan 2004 20:14 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have
> used "prostitute" as an insult.

Not my burden or job, and it wouldn't change the fact
you STUPIDLY committed a massive logical fallacy.
Rat & Swan - 16 Jan 2004 21:44 GMT
<snip>
>> Then enlighten us all, rather than bluster.  Please provide
>> a list of, or a link to, "plenty" of libertarians who have
>> used "prostitute" as an insult.

> Not my burden or job,

Than you