Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / May 2006
How to determine best multivitamin or vitamin regimen?
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Doc - 17 May 2006 00:25 GMT There seems to be some debate over the best way to take vitamins - i.e. single pill (and if so, which is "the best"), multiple pills (how to determine which ones to take), or "you don't need supplements it's all a scam and a waste of money".
I see the topic of individual vitamin needs mentioned - i.e. "everybody is different". How would you go about determining your individual needs? How would you have yourself tested to see if you're deficient in anything? Is this something any competent doctor can do or are there specific doctors or even other types of specialists who can do an analysis? Are MD types likely to have a bias on the topic that you might not agree with?
For the time being, any recommendations for a proven "you can't go wrong with" brand/type to hit the middle of the bell curve of nutritional needs without knowing anything else? (In my case, male, non-smoker, recently stepping up my workout regimen, no known chronic medical issues)
Anyone care to chime in with opinions on the "you don't need vitamin supplements at all it's a waste of money" idea?
Thanks for all input
Ron Peterson - 17 May 2006 01:24 GMT > There seems to be some debate over the best way to take vitamins - i.e. > single pill (and if so, which is "the best"), multiple pills (how to > determine which ones to take), or "you don't need supplements it's all a > scam and a waste of money". I like to take separate pills because I can change the dosage on each supplement. A pill with all the vitamins and minerals combined would be too large to take as a single pill (calcium and omega-3 are bulky). My SO takes more Ca than I, so that needs to be adjusted or we would need to take different single pills.
> I see the topic of individual vitamin needs mentioned - i.e. "everybody is > different". How would you go about determining your individual needs? How > would you have yourself tested to see if you're deficient in anything? Is > this something any competent doctor can do or are there specific doctors or > even other types of specialists who can do an analysis? Are MD types likely > to have a bias on the topic that you might not agree with? The expense of testing for deficiencies would far exceed the cost of the supplements, if you could find someone to do the tests. I just want to make sure that I get a "recommended" amount of the nutrients I need even if I goof up my diet and don't eat enough kale.
Yes, MDs have a bias in thinking that a vitamin or mineral is unlikely to be effective in preventing a major disease such as cardiovascular problems, and don't consider the possible benefit in avoiding minor things like cataracts and arthritis.
> For the time being, any recommendations for a proven "you can't go wrong > with" brand/type to hit the middle of the bell curve of nutritional needs > without knowing anything else? (In my case, male, non-smoker, recently > stepping up my workout regimen, no known chronic medical issues) I think that you should start with just a small number of supplements and keep in mind the reason you are taking each. I will suggest one, and let others suggest their favorites. I recommend vitamin D (1,000 IU) because if you wear sunblock and avoid sun like you should to protect against skin cancer your body won't produce enough vitamin D.
> Anyone care to chime in with opinions on the "you don't need vitamin > supplements at all it's a waste of money" idea? Certainly, megadosing is a waste of money and possibly dangerous. (You could probably easily afford to megadose).
 Signature Ron
Just Cocky - 17 May 2006 03:28 GMT >Certainly, megadosing is a waste of money and possibly dangerous. Actually, with a few exceptions (Vitmain A comes to mind), there isn't a shred of evidence that megadosing is harmful. In some causes, for example Vitamin B12, megadosing is the way to go to obtain a therapeutic response to the nutrient. And I'm not even going to mention what Linus Pauling recommended regarding Vitamin C...
See, for example: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/sep2005_report_kurzweil_01.htm
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 19 May 2006 12:39 GMT >>Certainly, megadosing is a waste of money and possibly dangerous. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >therapeutic response to the nutrient. And I'm not even going to >mention what Linus Pauling recommended regarding Vitamin C... Giving kidney stones.
Just Cocky - 19 May 2006 17:18 GMT >>>Certainly, megadosing is a waste of money and possibly dangerous. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Giving kidney stones. Sorry, no evidence for that.
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 20 May 2006 18:18 GMT >>Giving kidney stones. > >Sorry, no evidence for that. It is converted to oxalic acid, adding up to other sources of that, and increase the chances getting kidney stones.
Just Cocky - 20 May 2006 18:24 GMT >>>Giving kidney stones. >> >>Sorry, no evidence for that. > >It is converted to oxalic acid, adding up to other sources of that, >and increase the chances getting kidney stones. The "Vitamin C => Kidney stones" is just a myth unless evidence shows otherwise. If you have evidence, shouw it to us, please.
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 20 May 2006 19:00 GMT >>>>Giving kidney stones. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The "Vitamin C => Kidney stones" is just a myth unless evidence shows >otherwise. If you have evidence, shouw it to us, please. Like JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr. 2005 Nov-Dec;29(6):454; author reply 454. Related Articles, Links
Comment on: JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr. 2004 Nov-Dec;28(6):435-8.
Urinary oxalate excretion increases in home parenteral nutrition patients on a higher intravenous ascorbic acid dose.
Fairholm L, Saqui O, Baun M, Allard J.
and its comment: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15568291&itool=pubmed_Abstract
or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15754276&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum Am J Kidney Dis. 2005 Mar;45(3):540-9. Related Articles, Links
Long-term, low-dose, intravenous vitamin C leads to plasma calcium oxalate supersaturation in hemodialysis patients.
Canavese C, Petrarulo M, Massarenti P, Berutti S, Fenoglio R, Pauletto D, Lanfranco G, Bergamo D, Sandri L, Marangella M.
And several more.
Just Cocky - 20 May 2006 20:38 GMT >>>>>Giving kidney stones. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Canavese C, Petrarulo M, Massarenti P, Berutti S, Fenoglio R, Pauletto >D, Lanfranco G, Bergamo D, Sandri L, Marangella M. I'm sorry, but none of the studies provided shows the mythical "vitamin c leads to kidney stones" hypothesis.
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 20 May 2006 23:55 GMT >I'm sorry, but none of the studies provided shows the mythical >"vitamin c leads to kidney stones" hypothesis. It states increased release of oxalic acid, which in combination with calcium gives nephrolithiasis (mentioned in both) which is medical word for kidney stones.
Just Cocky - 21 May 2006 08:41 GMT >>I'm sorry, but none of the studies provided shows the mythical >>"vitamin c leads to kidney stones" hypothesis. > >It states increased release of oxalic acid, which in combination with >calcium gives nephrolithiasis (mentioned in both) which is medical >word for kidney stones. Yet, there aren't *ANY* studies showing a clear association between kidney stones and (healthy) people megadosing on Vitamin C. How come, if the thing appears to be a slum dunk?
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 24 May 2006 00:10 GMT >Yet, there aren't *ANY* studies showing a clear association between >kidney stones and (healthy) people megadosing on Vitamin C. How come, >if the thing appears to be a slum dunk? I found several. But, since you have decided to ignore any research that don't fit your a priori dogma, there is no use in citing them.
Just Cocky - 24 May 2006 00:23 GMT >>Yet, there aren't *ANY* studies showing a clear association between >>kidney stones and (healthy) people megadosing on Vitamin C. How come, >>if the thing appears to be a slum dunk? > >I found several. But, since you have decided to ignore any research >that don't fit your a priori dogma, there is no use in citing them. No, you found several that show an increase in oxalic acid output with increased intake of Vitamin C.
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Alf Christophersen - 24 May 2006 00:42 GMT >No, you found several that show an increase in oxalic acid output with >increased intake of Vitamin C. Now, have you did a search on increased oxalic acid release and nephrolithiasis ?? (or kidney stone forming)
Just Cocky - 24 May 2006 03:19 GMT >>No, you found several that show an increase in oxalic acid output with >>increased intake of Vitamin C. > >Now, have you did a search on increased oxalic acid release and >nephrolithiasis ?? (or kidney stone forming) Ah, linear thinking. Could it be that Vitamin C, or some metabolite, has a protective efective by preventing the oxalates from accumulating? Because I've never seen a study that shows a correlation between Vitamin C intake and kidney stobe formation.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/index.html#stone
 Signature "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Ron Peterson - 24 May 2006 05:39 GMT > Ah, linear thinking. Could it be that Vitamin C, or some metabolite, > has a protective efective by preventing the oxalates from > accumulating? Because I've never seen a study that shows a correlation http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html explains that vitamin C increases urine flow and acidifies the urine causing some types of kidney stones to dissolve. However, it doesn't dissolve the oxalate stones, which for some reason don't form when taking a vitamin C supplement despite increasing the production of oxalate.
 Signature Ron
ahra - 17 May 2006 03:45 GMT You need to read the book "Fantastic Voyage" by the inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil, and his MD, Terry Grossman. This book covers everything currently known about using supplementation, mainstream medical treatments, and future options (things that are in the labs and being tested or developed) to help you avoid, or help your body deal with, all the major common illnesses (cholesterol, diabetes, heart disease, etc. etc.). Designing a personal supplement program is discussed. This is, to date, the clearest and most thorough and concise book on the subject.
ahra - 17 May 2006 03:58 GMT Most MD's don't go for training in nutrition. If you want one-2-one professional help in evaluating where you're at and what supplementation might be of benefit, you want to see a Certified Clinical Nutritionist (not a registered dietician).
Meantime, consider: everyone should be taking a basic daily multi; an Omega 3 supplement (fish oil and/or flax); Cal/Mag/D 1000 mg per day (especially if you're not drinking any milk, and make that 1500 mg per day if you're preg/ nursing/ postmenopausal); and eat those leafy green veggies and broccoli, ideally raw.
Also consider: the best food you can eat is a fresh picked organically grown plant, rinsed.
Doc - 17 May 2006 07:48 GMT > Most MD's don't go for training in nutrition. If you want one-2-one > professional help in evaluating where you're at and what > supplementation might be of benefit, you want to see a Certified > Clinical Nutritionist (not a registered dietician). What kind of training/specialized knowledge is a Certitied Clinical Nutritionist going to have?
I keep hearing that doctors don't tend to know a lot about nutrition, which seems odd to me. If they spend all those hours learning chemistry, biology, anatomy, diagnosis and mechanisms of disease, how drugs interact with the body etc. it seems it would be logical, even necessary for them to additionally have an in-depth knowledge about the process of fueling the body and how it affects its functions.
If they spend all this time focused on the functions of the human body but omit nutrition, seems they'd be missing a big piece of the puzzle, would they not? How, for example, can you intelligently counsel a pregnant woman, or one contemplating having a baby, about her needs if you don't have state of the art knowledge of nutrition?
On the other side of the coin, I guess I wonder about "nutrition experts" who *don't* have the in-depth knowledge of a doctor, how can they really understand how diet/supplements benefit (or harm) the body without this knowledge?
Ron Peterson - 17 May 2006 14:47 GMT > What kind of training/specialized knowledge is a Certitied Clinical > Nutritionist going to have? I checked their website which says they need 15 semester hours of nutrition specific courses. It' s good, but they aren't medical doctors.
Quackwatch.org says: "Most conditions for which detailed nutrition advice is needed require medical diagnosis first. These include high blood cholesterol, diabetes, severe food allergy or sensitivity, high blood pressure, certain digestive problems, osteoporosis, severe kidney disease, cancer, and obesity. Consultation with an expert can also be worthwhile for pregnant and lactating women, competitive athletes, and individuals who feel confused about nutrition."
> I keep hearing that doctors don't tend to know a lot about nutrition, which > seems odd to me. If they spend all those hours learning chemistry, biology, > anatomy, diagnosis and mechanisms of disease, how drugs interact with the > body etc. it seems it would be logical, even necessary for them to > additionally have an in-depth knowledge about the process of fueling the > body and how it affects its functions. Doctors can't know every field of medicine and that's why there are specialist. A doctor specializing in cardiavascular problems would probably know what foods and nutrients affect the cardiovascular system, but they may not know about nutrition needed for vision.
> If they spend all this time focused on the functions of the human body but > omit nutrition, seems they'd be missing a big piece of the puzzle, would > they not? How, for example, can you intelligently counsel a pregnant woman, > or one contemplating having a baby, about her needs if you don't have state > of the art knowledge of nutrition? They're going to know about major things like folic acid intake even if they haven't taken a nutrition course.
> On the other side of the coin, I guess I wonder about "nutrition experts" > who *don't* have the in-depth knowledge of a doctor, how can they really > understand how diet/supplements benefit (or harm) the body without this > knowledge? We should be skeptical of all "nutrition experts" even if they have a medical degree. As we check out their claims, we can gain more confidence in their knowledge.
There is the problem of vendors and diet book writers pushing their products by misleading the public.
 Signature Ron
Alf Christophersen - 19 May 2006 12:51 GMT >> What kind of training/specialized knowledge is a Certitied Clinical >> Nutritionist going to have? > >I checked their website which says they need 15 semester hours of >nutrition specific courses. It' s good, but they aren't medical >doctors. Here you may find all about our institute: http://www.med.uio.no/imb/nutri/english/index.html
Ron Peterson - 19 May 2006 14:54 GMT > >I checked their website which says they need 15 semester hours of > >nutrition specific courses. It' s good, but they aren't medical > >doctors.
> Here you may find all about our institute: > http://www.med.uio.no/imb/nutri/english/index.html That looks like a good program. It would be nice if more of that course material were available on the Web.
 Signature Ron
Alf Christophersen - 20 May 2006 18:19 GMT >> >I checked their website which says they need 15 semester hours of >> >nutrition specific courses. It' s good, but they aren't medical [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That looks like a good program. It would be nice if more of that course >material were available on the Web. I'll check what is possible.
Alf Christophersen - 19 May 2006 12:49 GMT >I keep hearing that doctors don't tend to know a lot about nutrition, which >seems odd to me. If they spend all those hours learning chemistry, biology, >anatomy, diagnosis and mechanisms of disease, how drugs interact with the >body etc. it seems it would be logical, even necessary for them to >additionally have an in-depth knowledge about the process of fueling the >body and how it affects its functions. That ignorance of nutrition must be a US phenomena. All doctors here at least are taught also nutrition, but normally they do not specialize in it. (Some are, but they usually end up as researchers, but not all). After having working in one of Europe's largest nutrition research institute connected to a medical (http://www.med.uio.no/imb/nutri/english/index.html) since 1983 (1979), what I have learned is that now, almost all medical training schools are now teaching medical students also in nutrition.
But, of course, many medical students may be did not pay any attention to what they learned, mostly interesting learning how to earn as much money as possibly on prescribing the right medicine for the patients (giving most profit)
When studying biochemistry, I was leader of the student welfare committee at the institute and had to make a statement on what medical biochemistry students had decided. They wanted to get rid of all lessons on chemistry. biochemistry, nutrition and some other basal courses since that was not relevant for prescribing medicine. :-)
joni - 18 May 2006 00:44 GMT > There seems to be some debate over the best way to take vitamins - i.e. > single pill (and if so, which is "the best"), multiple pills (how to > determine which ones to take), or "you don't need supplements it's all a > scam and a waste of money". I always thought yeah I should take my daily vitamins/supplements etc and lapsed alot until I read an interesting (and a bit alarming to me) article about vitamins and what a reknown biochemist, Bruce Ames PhD had to say about them ...here is a reprint I found online: http://www.juvenon.com/pdfs/june05_ames-prescrip.pdf
joanne
Doc - 18 May 2006 05:20 GMT > I always thought yeah I should take my daily vitamins/supplements etc > and lapsed alot until I read an interesting (and a bit alarming to me) > article about vitamins and what a reknown biochemist, Bruce Ames PhD > had to say about them ...here is a reprint I found online: > http://www.juvenon.com/pdfs/june05_ames-prescrip.pdf Excellent, thanks.
MattLB - 19 May 2006 13:31 GMT > > I always thought yeah I should take my daily vitamins/supplements etc > > and lapsed alot until I read an interesting (and a bit alarming to me) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Excellent, thanks. Although you should be aware that the journalist has misinterpreted a number of things (particularly about mitochondria and metabolism).
MattLB
Doc - 19 May 2006 23:00 GMT > > Excellent, thanks. > > Although you should be aware that the journalist has misinterpreted a > number of things (particularly about mitochondria and metabolism). Can you elaborate?
Ultimately, do you feel the suggestion for the type of vitamin supplement is bad advice?
MattLB - 26 May 2006 13:56 GMT > > > Excellent, thanks. > > > > Although you should be aware that the journalist has misinterpreted a > > number of things (particularly about mitochondria and metabolism). > > Can you elaborate? For example: "The conversion process requires mitochondria to take electrons from oxygen molecules..."
It doesn't. Electrons are given *to* oxygen molecules.
"...and shuttle them around to create chains of other molecules."
No idea what this means, but you don't make chains of molecules.
"only a few oxygen electrons are lost, spinning off to become what are called free radicals."
Electrons can't be free radicals on their own. Free radicals are molecules that have a imbalance of electrons - effectively half a chemical bond - that will react with other molecules, often damaging them.
> Ultimately, do you feel the suggestion for the type of vitamin supplement is > bad advice? I think multivitamins are good insurance for any deficiencies in the diet, although personally I prefer separates so I can take them at different meals if they compete for absorption (like some minerals do), or take extra antioxidants if eating foods cooked in certain ways.
MattLB
Alf Christophersen - 20 May 2006 18:20 GMT >Although you should be aware that the journalist has misinterpreted a >number of things (particularly about mitochondria and metabolism). Have you ever met a journalist who has not misunderstood and misinterpreted more or less completely what you have said?
Mr. Natural-Health - 18 May 2006 13:37 GMT > Anyone care to chime in with opinions on the "you don't need vitamin > supplements at all it's a waste of money" idea? http://naturalhealthperspective.com/supplements/
Ron Peterson - 18 May 2006 13:51 GMT > There seems to be some debate over the best way to take vitamins - i.e. > single pill (and if so, which is "the best"), multiple pills (how to > determine which ones to take), or "you don't need supplements it's all a > scam and a waste of money". latimes.com is running this story: Benefits From Vitamins Are Few Some supplements are deemed useful, but multivitamins neither help nor harm, a U.S. panel finds. It says more studies are needed. By Denise Gellene, Times Staff Writer May 18, 2006
There's no evidence that multivitamins do healthy adults much good, but the supplements don't seem to do much harm either, a federal panel said Wednesday.
Concluding a three-day conference convened by the National Institutes of Health, the panel called for further studies of multivitamins. Half of adults in the U.S. take multivitamins, helping to push annual sales of nutritional supplements to $23 billion.
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Dr. J. Michael McGinnis of the National Institute of Medicine, the chairman of the panel, said the studies of multivitamins reviewed by the group were "especially thin" and most of the clinical trials were too short to determine the long-term effects of taking the supplements.
Consequently, he said, the panel had no opinion on whether healthy adults should take multivitamins. "The data is insufficient to make a recommendation for the general population," McGinnis said after the meeting in Bethesda, Md.
Still, the panel found that some individual vitamins or minerals appeared to show specific benefits.
One well-designed trial suggested that antioxidants and zinc might slow the progression of age-related macular degeneration, the leading cause of blindness in the elderly, McGinnis said. Calcium and vitamin D supplements seem to have an effect on fracture risk and bone density in post-menopausal women, he added.
The panel endorsed consumption of folic acid by women of childbearing age to prevent congenital deformities of the nervous system, such as spina bifida.
Experts took a position against one supplement, beta carotene, a form of vitamin A. They said there was no reason for the general population to take beta carotene because studies consistently showed the vitamin failed to prevent chronic illnesses, such as cancer or heart disease.
The panel did not look at vitamin use by children or adults with poor diets or specific nutritional needs.
Most of the people who took multivitamins were in good health, the panel found, raising the possibility that some people might consume excessive amounts of certain nutrients.
Panel member Patsy Brannon of Cornell University said 1% to 11% of supplement users may exceed the maximum levels for some vitamins and minerals by adding pills to the nutrients in their diets. One study found that some people consumed too much niacin, which can damage the liver, she said.
Still, Brannon said, there was no reason for people to stop taking multivitamins.
"If you choose to take a supplement, the simplest advice I can give is to take one that provides 100% of the daily values," she said, adding that such supplements would not put people with good diets in danger of exceeding maximum nutrient levels.
Andrew Shao of the Council for Responsible Nutrition, a trade group that represents supplement manufacturers, said he was disappointed that the panel dismissed the multivitamin studies it reviewed as weak and poorly conducted.
Shao said the industry welcomed further research, but added that supplement makers could not afford to conduct the long-term controlled studies that the panel sought because they "cost hundreds of millions of dollars."
 Signature Ron
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