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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / May 2006

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Lettuce inhibiting digestion???

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Ben Fullerton - 18 Apr 2006 02:03 GMT
A short while ago, someone made mention of the dark green lettuce leaves
containing some substance that interfered with or had some negative effect
on digestion.

I do not remember any details, if they were even given, but am interested
in finding out what the comment was all about. (I am having various
digestive problems at present and looking for clues as to the possible
causes.)

Ben F.
monty1945@lycos.com - 19 Apr 2006 05:39 GMT
Search this group for "Food to avoid: a good web site" and then you'll
see the first item is it.  I eat herbs and spices in very small
amounts, but otherwise, I'll only eat an occasional carrot, never the
leafy greens.  You are better off with berries and dark chocolate, and
avoiding highly unsaturated oils and oxidized cholesterol.  This will
go a long way to keeping you healthy.  Search this group for montygram
if you want more technical information.
Ben Fullerton - 23 Apr 2006 13:56 GMT
: Search this group for "Food to avoid: a good web site" and then you'll
: see the first item is it.  I eat herbs and spices in very small
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: go a long way to keeping you healthy.  Search this group for montygram
: if you want more technical information.

My search (maybe because of a rather 'clunky' ng reader) found only one
posting - and it appeared to be the last one in the thread. It had no URL
for any web site.

As a senior who is trying to maintain - or if possible, improve - what
little health I have left, rather than maintain youthful good health, I
long ago reached the condition where I have NO tolerance for chocolate
and, more recently, can tolerate only tiny amounts of a few fruits.

Any other suggestions for information sources?

Ben F.
jt - 23 Apr 2006 14:47 GMT
>: Search this group for "Food to avoid: a good web site" and then you'll
>: see the first item is it.  I eat herbs and spices in very small
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>little health I have left, rather than maintain youthful good health, I
>long ago reached the condition where I have NO tolerance for chocolate

There is a difference between dark chocolate and MILK chocolate.

>and, more recently, can tolerate only tiny amounts of a few fruits.

What condition would cause someone to be intolerant to fruit?
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Apr 2006 21:38 GMT
If you have health problems, I would have to do some research to
determine what seems best to do, but I'd need a lot more information.
Here's the "food to avoid" material.  It's from beyondveg.com's web
site.

I did not post the parts of this page that contained speculation about

the diets of prehistoric humans.  Note that lipid peroxidation is
mentioned, but they seem unaware at how dangerous the highly
unsaturated oils are (it's interesting that talk about prehistoric
peoples, yet don't realize how these new oils, which are potent
oxidizing agents, can cause so much damage to the body).

"Mycotoxins

>From Marth [1990], mycotoxins (toxins produced by molds) are completely

destroyed at their melting point, which is generally at high
temperatures: 164°C (327°F) for Zearalenone, 170°C (338°F) for
Rubratoxia. When roasting peanuts, the toxicity of aflatoxin B1 is
reduced by 70%, and that of aflatoxin B2 by 45%. Thus, heat treatment
cannot be considered as a satisfactory means to eliminate mycotoxins.

Beans

Raw kidney beans at a level as low as 1% of diet can cause death in
rats in two weeks. Beans cooked at 100°C (212°F) for 30 minutes, and
incorporated at a level as high as 20% of diet, do not retard growth
when tested against casein. (Feeding rats with casein instead of beans
doesn't affect their growth rate, and can therefore be used as a
baseline for comparison.) However, when beans which have been cooked at

the lesser temperature of 70°C (158°F) for 30 minutes are
incorporated, growth retardation is almost as great as that which
occurs when raw beans are fed. The small amount of lectin present in
beans cooked at 70°C might be responsible for this effect [McPherson
1990]. However, cooking kidney beans doesn't destroy all antinutrients
[Grant et al. 1982].

Fava beans. The well-known disease "favism" is caused by consumption of

fava beans in genetically susceptible individuals. Such individuals
carry a polymorphism of a gene (present in some regions where malaria
is prevalent) that is thought to protect against malaria but also
results in severe deficiency of glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase
(G6PD) [Golenser 1983].

Soybeans. From Liener [1994], soybeans contain some heat-labile
protease inhibitors and hemagglutinins. ("Heat-labile" means those
susceptible to changes by heat; a hemagglutinin is something that
causes red blood cells to clump together.) Soy also contains factors
that are relatively heat-stable, though of lesser significance, such
as:

Goitrogens: substances that cause goiters, i.e., an enlargement of the
thyroid gland.

Tannins: complex plant compounds that are often bitter or astringent.

Phytoestrogens: plant analogues of the hormone estrogen.

Flatus-producing oligosaccharides: carbohydrates of small molecular
weight that cause flatulence (gas).

Phytates: which bind minerals preventing absorption.

Saponins.

Antivitamins.

>From Faldet [1992], heat treatment of soybeans destroys or reduces

heat-labile antinutritional factors, improves digestibility and
availability of sulfur amino acids, and increases fat digestibility by
non-ruminants, but excessive cooking will reduce protein availability.
(Note: Ruminants are hoofed, cud-chewing animals such as cattle, sheep,

goats, deer, and giraffes, having multiple stomach chambers that are
specially adapted for digesting tough cellulose raw.) Thus, there is an

optimal heat treatment, which was found to be 120 minutes at 140°C
(284°F), or 30 minutes at 160°C (320°F).

Grains

The antinutrients here (anti-amylases, phytates) are affected by
heating, but phytates require other processing (such as fermentation)
for further neutralization, which is still only partial. Also,
soaking/germination (sprouting) reduces phytates [Hurrell 1997].
Soaking under optimal conditions (55°C, pH 4.5-5.0) can eliminate
phytates [Sandberg and Svanberg 1991].

Egg Whites

Raw egg white contains a protein called "conalbumin" which binds to
iron. Additionally, raw egg white contains avidin, which binds to
biotin and can impair metabolism of other B-vitamins. Note however that

raw egg toxicity should not be overstated: 20 raw eggs per day for
several weeks would be necessary to create a biotin deficiency.

Mushrooms

The most common commercial mushroom, Agaricus bisporus, causes cancer
in mice [Toth 1986]. The dosages required were almost half of their
total food intake.

Concerning poisonous mushrooms, obviously cooking amanitas (an
extremely poisonous variety of mushroom) won't make them edible, but
there are examples of mushrooms which become edible after cooking.
Since these varieties are very special and can't be found at the
grocery, we won't expand further.

Potatoes

Potatoes contain solanine and chaconine, which are not hazardous unless

large quantities are eaten. They don't accumulate in the body, and are
not destroyed by heat.

Spinach and Rhubarb

These contain oxalates, which among other effects inhibit calcium
absorption. Again, they are not hazardous unless large quantities are
eaten. They don't accumulate in the body, and are not destroyed by
heat.

Cyanogenic Glycosides

These are found in lima beans, cassava, and many fruit pits [Beier et
al. 1994]. Processing techniques partially destroy cyanogenic
glycosides, but some poisonings caused by the consumption of large
amounts of cassava or fruit pits have been reported, including apricot
kernels. When in contact with stomach acids, the cyanogenic glycosides
release cyanide, which is the active component in Zyklon B (used by the

Nazis in death camps). So indeed cyanide is toxic in large amounts, but

obviously a few apricot kernels will not do much harm.

Taro

Contains some trypsin inhibitors and lectins, which are destroyed by
heat [Seo 1990].

Parsnips

These contain toxic psoralens, which are potent light-activated
carcinogens and mutagens not destroyed by cooking [Ivie 1981]. Parsnips

contain psoralens at a concentration of 40 ppm, and Ivie [1981, p. 910]

reports:

[C]onsumption of moderate quantities of this vegetable by man can
result in the intake of appreciable amounts of psoralens. Consumption
of 0.1 kg of parsnip root could expose an individual to 4 to 5 mg of
total psoralens, an amount that might be expected to cause some
physiological effects under certain circumstances...

Flavonoids

Flavonoids are a broad class of compounds common in plants and in the
human diet. The basic characteristic of flavonoids is that their
chemical structure includes what is known as the flavonoid skeleton,
that is, a skeleton (core) of diphenylpyrans, i.e., C6-C3-C6, where the

C stands for carbon, and C6 is a benzene ring [Hertog and Katan 1998].
Over 4,000 flavonoids are known, and new ones are being researched and
described [Hollman 1997]. In plants, flavonoids serve a number of
functions: as pigments (the color of fruits and flowers is due to
flavonoids), antioxidants, sunscreens, etc.
Because of the large number of compounds in this class, generalizations

about the function of flavonoids are difficult [McClure 1975]. However,

the following can be said about certain flavonoids:

Quercetin, a very common flavonoid in the human diet, is known to be
mutagenic [Nagao 1981]. However, it is not carcinogenic, and has been
shown to have anticarcinogenic properties in tests in vitro; see Hertog

and Katan [1998], and Chung et al. [1998].

Flavonoids can inhibit enzyme systems in mammals [Hollman 1997].

The flavonoid phloridzin (and its breakdown products) can inhibit
respiration in animal tissues [McClure 1975].

Certain flavonoids can function as antioxidants and help preserve
vitamin C [McClure 1975].

Some flavonoids protect against the mutagenic effect of other
substances. (Refer to the previous section on Mutagenicity and
Carcinogenicity, subtopic "Other Factors Influencing Carcinogenesis.")

Alfalfa Sprouts

Alfalfa sprouts contain approximately 1.5% canavanine, a substance
which, when fed to monkeys, causes a severe lupus erythematosus-like
syndrome. (In humans, lupus is an autoimmune disease.) Canavanine is an

analog for the amino acid arginine, and takes its place when
incorporated into proteins. However, alfalfa that is cooked by
autoclaving (i.e., subjected to pressure-cooking) doesn't induce this
effect [Malinow 1982, Malinow 1984].
Note here that the monkeys were fed semi-purified diets, with a
canavanine content of 1-2%, versus a typical canavanine content of 1.5%

(dry weight--that is, when completely dehydrated) for alfalfa sprouts
[Malinow 1982]. Thus, although it would be very difficult for a human
to eat enough fresh alfalfa sprouts to ingest even 1% canavanine,
individuals should be aware of the potential risks, and consume (or not

consume) alfalfa sprouts accordingly. (In particular, those rawists who

juice sprouts should probably strictly limit or avoid the consumption
of alfalfa sprout juice, due to the concentration effect that results
from juicing.)

Other Examples

Let's mention quickly a few other examples: pyrrolizidine alkaloids,
present in herbal teas, are carcinogenic, mutagenic, and teratogenic
(cause birth defects); gossypol in cottonseed causes abnormal sperm and

male sterility, and is a carcinogen; piperine in black pepper causes
tumors in mice; capsaicin in hot pepper is a mutagen; allyl
iosthiocyanate, in oil of mustard and horseradish, is a carcinogen in
rats; quinones and their phenol precursors (in many different plants)
have mutagenic and antimutagenic properties.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other toxic effects of cooking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heated Milk Protein

It is possible that heated milk protein may be a factor in
atherosclerosis [Annand 1971, 1972, 1986].

Heated Fats

Oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol. Research reveals that in animal
models, oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol induce higher levels of
arterial plaque (i.e., atherogenesis) than do the corresponding
non-oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol [Taylor et al. 1979, Kummerow
1993, Kubow 1993, O'Keefe et al. 1995]. The biochemical processes that
make oxidized fats atherogenic are the subject of scientific
controversy; however, one suggestion is that the heating of fats, oils,

and cholesterol increases the levels of lipid peroxide products. The
idea is that the peroxides (in combination with lipids) promote an
atherogenic response [Kubow 1993].

In tests feeding high-cholesterol diets to rabbits, the consumption of
scrambled or baked eggs produced increases in serum cholesterol of 6-7
times the pre-existing levels, while fried or hard-boiled eggs raised
levels by 10-14 times [Pollack 1958]. Cordain [in a posting to the
Paleodiet list of 10/9/1997] also reports that his research group
routinely induces atherogenesis in test animals (miniature swine) by
feeding oxidized fats/cholesterol.

Role of oxidized LDL cholesterol in atherogenesis. O'Keefe et al.
[1995, pp. 70, 72] explain the role of oxidized cholesterol in
atherogenesis as follows:

LDL cholesterol must be oxidized or glycosylated (or both) before it
becomes atherogenic.(8,9) Oxidative modification of cholesterol occurs
by means of oxygen free radical processes. Only after the LDL has been
modified (through oxidation or glycosylation) does it activate
differentiation and migration of macrophages. The scavenger receptors
on the macrophages recognize oxidized LDL (but not unmodified LDL) and
allow for subsequent phagocytosis. When the macrophage becomes filled
with oxidized LDL cholesterol, it becomes the foam cell that is
typically observed in early atherosclerotic lesions...
The oxidative modification of LDL cholesterol seems to be the final
common pathway in the process of atherosclerosis.

Steinberg et al. [1989] also report that oxidized LDL cholesterol, at
high levels, is atherogenic. For a good summary of the atherogenic
properties of oxidized LDL cholesterol, see Table 2 in O'Keefe et al.
[1995, p. 72], and Table 1 in Steinberg et al. [1989, p. 917]."
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Apr 2006 21:44 GMT
If you have health problems, I would have to do some research to
determine what seems best to do, but I'd need a lot more information.
Here's the "food to avoid" material.  It's from beyondveg.com's web
site.

I did not post the parts of this page that contained speculation about

the diets of prehistoric humans.  Note that lipid peroxidation is
mentioned, but they seem unaware at how dangerous the highly
unsaturated oils are (it's interesting that talk about prehistoric
peoples, yet don't realize how these new oils, which are potent
oxidizing agents, can cause so much damage to the body).

"Mycotoxins

>From Marth [1990], mycotoxins (toxins produced by molds) are completely

destroyed at their melting point, which is generally at high
temperatures: 164°C (327°F) for Zearalenone, 170°C (338°F) for
Rubratoxia. When roasting peanuts, the toxicity of aflatoxin B1 is
reduced by 70%, and that of aflatoxin B2 by 45%. Thus, heat treatment
cannot be considered as a satisfactory means to eliminate mycotoxins.

Beans

Raw kidney beans at a level as low as 1% of diet can cause death in
rats in two weeks. Beans cooked at 100°C (212°F) for 30 minutes, and
incorporated at a level as high as 20% of diet, do not retard growth
when tested against casein. (Feeding rats with casein instead of beans
doesn't affect their growth rate, and can therefore be used as a
baseline for comparison.) However, when beans which have been cooked at

the lesser temperature of 70°C (158°F) for 30 minutes are
incorporated, growth retardation is almost as great as that which
occurs when raw beans are fed. The small amount of lectin present in
beans cooked at 70°C might be responsible for this effect [McPherson
1990]. However, cooking kidney beans doesn't destroy all antinutrients
[Grant et al. 1982].

Fava beans. The well-known disease "favism" is caused by consumption of

fava beans in genetically susceptible individuals. Such individuals
carry a polymorphism of a gene (present in some regions where malaria
is prevalent) that is thought to protect against malaria but also
results in severe deficiency of glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase
(G6PD) [Golenser 1983].

Soybeans. From Liener [1994], soybeans contain some heat-labile
protease inhibitors and hemagglutinins. ("Heat-labile" means those
susceptible to changes by heat; a hemagglutinin is something that
causes red blood cells to clump together.) Soy also contains factors
that are relatively heat-stable, though of lesser significance, such
as:

Goitrogens: substances that cause goiters, i.e., an enlargement of the
thyroid gland.

Tannins: complex plant compounds that are often bitter or astringent.

Phytoestrogens: plant analogues of the hormone estrogen.

Flatus-producing oligosaccharides: carbohydrates of small molecular
weight that cause flatulence (gas).

Phytates: which bind minerals preventing absorption.

Saponins.

Antivitamins.

>From Faldet [1992], heat treatment of soybeans destroys or reduces

heat-labile antinutritional factors, improves digestibility and
availability of sulfur amino acids, and increases fat digestibility by
non-ruminants, but excessive cooking will reduce protein availability.
(Note: Ruminants are hoofed, cud-chewing animals such as cattle, sheep,

goats, deer, and giraffes, having multiple stomach chambers that are
specially adapted for digesting tough cellulose raw.) Thus, there is an

optimal heat treatment, which was found to be 120 minutes at 140°C
(284°F), or 30 minutes at 160°C (320°F).

Grains

The antinutrients here (anti-amylases, phytates) are affected by
heating, but phytates require other processing (such as fermentation)
for further neutralization, which is still only partial. Also,
soaking/germination (sprouting) reduces phytates [Hurrell 1997].
Soaking under optimal conditions (55°C, pH 4.5-5.0) can eliminate
phytates [Sandberg and Svanberg 1991].

Egg Whites

Raw egg white contains a protein called "conalbumin" which binds to
iron. Additionally, raw egg white contains avidin, which binds to
biotin and can impair metabolism of other B-vitamins. Note however that

raw egg toxicity should not be overstated: 20 raw eggs per day for
several weeks would be necessary to create a biotin deficiency.

Mushrooms

The most common commercial mushroom, Agaricus bisporus, causes cancer
in mice [Toth 1986]. The dosages required were almost half of their
total food intake.

Concerning poisonous mushrooms, obviously cooking amanitas (an
extremely poisonous variety of mushroom) won't make them edible, but
there are examples of mushrooms which become edible after cooking.
Since these varieties are very special and can't be found at the
grocery, we won't expand further.

Potatoes

Potatoes contain solanine and chaconine, which are not hazardous unless

large quantities are eaten. They don't accumulate in the body, and are
not destroyed by heat.

Spinach and Rhubarb

These contain oxalates, which among other effects inhibit calcium
absorption. Again, they are not hazardous unless large quantities are
eaten. They don't accumulate in the body, and are not destroyed by
heat.

Cyanogenic Glycosides

These are found in lima beans, cassava, and many fruit pits [Beier et
al. 1994]. Processing techniques partially destroy cyanogenic
glycosides, but some poisonings caused by the consumption of large
amounts of cassava or fruit pits have been reported, including apricot
kernels. When in contact with stomach acids, the cyanogenic glycosides
release cyanide, which is the active component in Zyklon B (used by the

Nazis in death camps). So indeed cyanide is toxic in large amounts, but

obviously a few apricot kernels will not do much harm.

Taro

Contains some trypsin inhibitors and lectins, which are destroyed by
heat [Seo 1990].

Parsnips

These contain toxic psoralens, which are potent light-activated
carcinogens and mutagens not destroyed by cooking [Ivie 1981]. Parsnips

contain psoralens at a concentration of 40 ppm, and Ivie [1981, p. 910]

reports:

[C]onsumption of moderate quantities of this vegetable by man can
result in the intake of appreciable amounts of psoralens. Consumption
of 0.1 kg of parsnip root could expose an individual to 4 to 5 mg of
total psoralens, an amount that might be expected to cause some
physiological effects under certain circumstances...

Flavonoids

Flavonoids are a broad class of compounds common in plants and in the
human diet. The basic characteristic of flavonoids is that their
chemical structure includes what is known as the flavonoid skeleton,
that is, a skeleton (core) of diphenylpyrans, i.e., C6-C3-C6, where the

C stands for carbon, and C6 is a benzene ring [Hertog and Katan 1998].
Over 4,000 flavonoids are known, and new ones are being researched and
described [Hollman 1997]. In plants, flavonoids serve a number of
functions: as pigments (the color of fruits and flowers is due to
flavonoids), antioxidants, sunscreens, etc.
Because of the large number of compounds in this class, generalizations

about the function of flavonoids are difficult [McClure 1975]. However,

the following can be said about certain flavonoids:

Quercetin, a very common flavonoid in the human diet, is known to be
mutagenic [Nagao 1981]. However, it is not carcinogenic, and has been
shown to have anticarcinogenic properties in tests in vitro; see Hertog

and Katan [1998], and Chung et al. [1998].

Flavonoids can inhibit enzyme systems in mammals [Hollman 1997].

The flavonoid phloridzin (and its breakdown products) can inhibit
respiration in animal tissues [McClure 1975].

Certain flavonoids can function as antioxidants and help preserve
vitamin C [McClure 1975].

Some flavonoids protect against the mutagenic effect of other
substances. (Refer to the previous section on Mutagenicity and
Carcinogenicity, subtopic "Other Factors Influencing Carcinogenesis.")

Alfalfa Sprouts

Alfalfa sprouts contain approximately 1.5% canavanine, a substance
which, when fed to monkeys, causes a severe lupus erythematosus-like
syndrome. (In humans, lupus is an autoimmune disease.) Canavanine is an

analog for the amino acid arginine, and takes its place when
incorporated into proteins. However, alfalfa that is cooked by
autoclaving (i.e., subjected to pressure-cooking) doesn't induce this
effect [Malinow 1982, Malinow 1984].
Note here that the monkeys were fed semi-purified diets, with a
canavanine content of 1-2%, versus a typical canavanine content of 1.5%

(dry weight--that is, when completely dehydrated) for alfalfa sprouts
[Malinow 1982]. Thus, although it would be very difficult for a human
to eat enough fresh alfalfa sprouts to ingest even 1% canavanine,
individuals should be aware of the potential risks, and consume (or not

consume) alfalfa sprouts accordingly. (In particular, those rawists who

juice sprouts should probably strictly limit or avoid the consumption
of alfalfa sprout juice, due to the concentration effect that results
from juicing.)

Other Examples

Let's mention quickly a few other examples: pyrrolizidine alkaloids,
present in herbal teas, are carcinogenic, mutagenic, and teratogenic
(cause birth defects); gossypol in cottonseed causes abnormal sperm and

male sterility, and is a carcinogen; piperine in black pepper causes
tumors in mice; capsaicin in hot pepper is a mutagen; allyl
iosthiocyanate, in oil of mustard and horseradish, is a carcinogen in
rats; quinones and their phenol precursors (in many different plants)
have mutagenic and antimutagenic properties.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other toxic effects of cooking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heated Milk Protein

It is possible that heated milk protein may be a factor in
atherosclerosis [Annand 1971, 1972, 1986].

Heated Fats

Oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol. Research reveals that in animal
models, oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol induce higher levels of
arterial plaque (i.e., atherogenesis) than do the corresponding
non-oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol [Taylor et al. 1979, Kummerow
1993, Kubow 1993, O'Keefe et al. 1995]. The biochemical processes that
make oxidized fats atherogenic are the subject of scientific
controversy; however, one suggestion is that the heating of fats, oils,

and cholesterol increases the levels of lipid peroxide products. The
idea is that the peroxides (in combination with lipids) promote an
atherogenic response [Kubow 1993].

In tests feeding high-cholesterol diets to rabbits, the consumption of
scrambled or baked eggs produced increases in serum cholesterol of 6-7
times the pre-existing levels, while fried or hard-boiled eggs raised
levels by 10-14 times [Pollack 1958]. Cordain [in a posting to the
Paleodiet list of 10/9/1997] also reports that his research group
routinely induces atherogenesis in test animals (miniature swine) by
feeding oxidized fats/cholesterol.

Role of oxidized LDL cholesterol in atherogenesis. O'Keefe et al.
[1995, pp. 70, 72] explain the role of oxidized cholesterol in
atherogenesis as follows:

LDL cholesterol must be oxidized or glycosylated (or both) before it
becomes atherogenic.(8,9) Oxidative modification of cholesterol occurs
by means of oxygen free radical processes. Only after the LDL has been
modified (through oxidation or glycosylation) does it activate
differentiation and migration of macrophages. The scavenger receptors
on the macrophages recognize oxidized LDL (but not unmodified LDL) and
allow for subsequent phagocytosis. When the macrophage becomes filled
with oxidized LDL cholesterol, it becomes the foam cell that is
typically observed in early atherosclerotic lesions...
The oxidative modification of LDL cholesterol seems to be the final
common pathway in the process of atherosclerosis.

Steinberg et al. [1989] also report that oxidized LDL cholesterol, at
high levels, is atherogenic. For a good summary of the atherogenic
properties of oxidized LDL cholesterol, see Table 2 in O'Keefe et al.
[1995, p. 72], and Table 1 in Steinberg et al. [1989, p. 917]."
Mr. Natural-Health - 24 Apr 2006 04:11 GMT
Say, what Montygram?

Can you kindly repeat that?  But, this time do it in plain English?

You have my condolences.
robin7800de - 26 Apr 2006 17:54 GMT
Hello montygram,
this is Robin from Germany! i hope you remember we had a little chat on
a other forum the other day.Want to make sure this works, because i´ve
been trying to contact you before!
Would be great to hear from you!Would you mail me to Artist@gmx.net
just to "chat" private first, please
Cheers,"Robin738"

monty1945@lycos.com schrieb:

> If you have health problems, I would have to do some research to
> determine what seems best to do, but I'd need a lot more information.
[quoted text clipped - 281 lines]
> properties of oxidized LDL cholesterol, see Table 2 in O'Keefe et al.
> [1995, p. 72], and Table 1 in Steinberg et al. [1989, p. 917]."
robin7800de - 27 Apr 2006 17:30 GMT
i will try to understand all this, thanks! i just need a while to read
because my english isn´t that good, but it is very interesting!!!!
What do you need to know about my thrombocytopenia? did you read my las
message on the other forum?
I feel scared  and totaly helpless! Would you really help me out with
this?Tell me all you need to know, and i´ll give you all the
information!!
cheers, Robin
Ben Fullerton - 03 May 2006 18:30 GMT
Thank 'Montygram' you for the detailed information on a wide range of
foods!

I will be downloading the lot and trying to "digest" it - and decide what
to do about the various warnings.

Also, in reply to the earlier post on chocolate - yes, I am very aware of
the difference between "chocolate" and "milk chocolate".

Many years ago it was found that real cheese, red wine, chocolate, and
most nuts can all cause, or contribute to, migraine headaches in many
people. (This is supported by my own reaction to chocolate and the other
three foods mentioned!)
[Some label this as an "allergic reaction" - indicating the trigger is a
protien - and others label it as a "pharmacological reaction" - ie. not
caused by a protien but by some other component common to these foods. I
feel that it is very important to make the distinction between these two
distinct types of reactions.]

Some questions on the 'toxic properties' of several foods are still
unanswered though.  For two important examples (important to me anyway):

First:
"Heated fats" does not define "heated".
At what temperatures do these changes take place?

Second:
What organs or functions of the human body are involved in dealing with
(neutralizing, or destroying, or quickly disposing of) each of these toxic
components?
 ..... or is this even known, rather than just guessed at?

Running out of time here - have to go.

Thank you again for the details so far, and I hope that you can help with
these questions as well.

Ben F.

****************************************************************
What future can there be for a society that values entertainment
more highly than education?             Ben Fullerton   1996
****************************************************************
Alf Christophersen - 03 May 2006 20:59 GMT
>Thank 'Montygram' you for the detailed information on a wide range of
>foods!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>people. (This is supported by my own reaction to chocolate and the other
>three foods mentioned!)

The difference is a very fine line. Histamine is the clue here. In an
allergenic skin reaction, the effector is release of histamine from
mast cells.
In red wine, the wine may contain histamine or histamine releasing
agent and it is the histamine that make brain blood vessels dilating
(and together with leukotriene B4, from arachidonate)

> [Some label this as an "allergic reaction" - indicating the trigger is a
>protien - and others label it as a "pharmacological reaction" - ie. not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Some questions on the 'toxic properties' of several foods are still
>unanswered though.  For two important examples (important to me anyway):

Histamine is more or less selfdecaying, but liver is otherwise the
main place for destroying the stuff. But in some cases, cells
otherwise also contain destroying enzymes.

Histamine is the trouble with the stomach of crabs and lobster that
make certain but not all eaters intoxicated and severely vomiting
afterwards.
If crabs are boiled at 100 deg C instead of simmering around 80-90 deg
C, histamine is leaking from stomach and people wiht high natural
level of histamine in stomach may then get enough to trigger an
allergenic response or vomiting response. I remember my mother always
became ill if the crab ever had been exposed to too high temperature.
Ben Fullerton - 05 May 2006 01:54 GMT
[.... snip]

: >Many years ago it was found that real cheese, red wine, chocolate, and
: >most nuts can all cause, or contribute to, migraine headaches in many
: >people. (This is supported by my own reaction to chocolate and the other
: >three foods mentioned!)

: The difference is a very fine line. Histamine is the clue here. In an
: allergenic skin reaction, the effector is release of histamine from
: mast cells.
: In red wine, the wine may contain histamine or histamine releasing
: agent and it is the histamine that make brain blood vessels dilating
: (and together with leukotriene B4, from arachidonate)

The last line above is *very interesting and sounds like the answer to a
question that I have been asking for quite some time now.

: > [Some label this as an "allergic reaction" - indicating the trigger is a
: >protien - and others label it as a "pharmacological reaction" - ie. not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: >Some questions on the 'toxic properties' of several foods are still
: >unanswered though.  For two important examples (important to me anyway):

: Histamine is more or less selfdecaying, but liver is otherwise the
: main place for destroying the stuff. But in some cases, cells
: otherwise also contain destroying enzymes.

This also seems to tie in with one of my most annoying health problems! I
have suspected that my liver is performing poorly, or slowly, for some
time now. Blood tests do not indicate this, probably because I can only go
to provide the samples when I am am well rested and the liver has had time
to 'catch up'!

: Histamine is the trouble with the stomach of crabs and lobster that
: make certain but not all eaters intoxicated and severely vomiting
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: allergenic response or vomiting response. I remember my mother always
: became ill if the crab ever had been exposed to too high temperature.

Any specific test that I can ask my family doctor for re. high histamine
in the stomach?  .... or does that usually come only within the
jurisdiction of a specialist? (BTW, I live in Canada and have the so
called advantage of government operated medicare.)

Ben F.
Alf Christophersen - 05 May 2006 15:23 GMT
>[.... snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>The last line above is *very interesting and sounds like the answer to a
>question that I have been asking for quite some time now.

Leukotrienes was formerly called SRS-A, Slow Reacting Substance of
Anaphylaxis. There is thousands of articles available through PubMed

>Any specific test that I can ask my family doctor for re. high histamine
>in the stomach?  .... or does that usually come only within the
>jurisdiction of a specialist? (BTW, I live in Canada and have the so
>called advantage of government operated medicare.)

You have to check with your doctor whether the lab do any histamine
level analyses of stomach. Often the problem is on the other side,
lowered sensitivity of histamine content in the food. Both will do the
same effect.
 
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