Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2006
How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?"
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montygram - 11 Feb 2006 04:17 GMT All the "bad news" is based on "correlations" and "associations." There was quite a bit of investigation into "trans fat" a few decades ago, and those studies did not find the major health risks being claimed for "trans fat" today (see "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition, or "Diet and Health" by the National Research Council, for example).
If claims about "trans fat" are to be taken seriously, they need to be rooted in science. Would you avoid a food because a local religious fantatic told you not to eat it because he received a message from God? If you would, you can stop reading this post now.
So how can we define "trans fat" in a scientific way? It's possible, but only in an abstract way that is unrelated to health. For example, you need to have a fat source that has some unsaturated fatty acids in it to begin with. Then you force hydrogen into at least some of the double bonds, creating an artificially saturated one. So let's say you have a highly unsaturated oil, safflower oil. Now you do a very light hydrogenation, and only convert a very small number of the double bonds into saturated ones. Is this now "trans fat?" It's effects on your body will be nearly identical to the safflower oil, with one exception: you may have stripped all the natural antioxidant protection from that oil (if it hadn't already been by the "refining" process, that is). Now let's take another example: you take a fat source like coconut oil, which is 92% saturated, and using hydrogenation, make it into 93% saturated. Is this now a "trans fat?" It may be, but it is irrelevant in terms of health, unless there is a toxic nickel content at this point (nickel is used in the hydrogenation process).
You should be asking yourself, "why haven't experiments been done that control for all these variables, and also contro for different hydrogenation percentages?" The answer is not easy, and probably involves politics, sociology, economics, and psychology, but clearly, the scientific method is being ignored here. So let's say you hydrogenate half of the double bonds in the fat source. Would that be like eating about half your fat calories from coconut oil and half from safflower oil? On the molecular level, is there any difference? And isn't that very similar to what most Americans are eating, in terms of the kinds of fatty acids molecules, regardless of whether it is called "trans fat" or not?
There is a key difference. If you were to use fresh, unrefined safflower oil, and eat plenty of antioxidant-rich foods with it, you would doing something a lot less unhealthy than someone who eats "processed" foods that have preservatives that basically stop working when they are in your mouth as you are eating them. That can be measured scientifically, and often is (such tests are Rancimat and ORAC, for example).
There is no argument on this point, for example:
"...reducing the proportion of unsaturated fatty acids which are at risk of oxidation creates shortening that is less likely to turn rancid. For example, a typical candy bar might have a shelf life of 30 days without use of hydrogenated oils, while the same product with hydrogenated oils can last up to 18 months."
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/trans-fatty-acid
It is also known that people who consume large amounts of coconut product have very low rates of "chronic disease." So it's not an issue of double bonds by themselves, but double bonds AND a lack of antioxidant protection, and that is the "killer combination" that exists in most of the foods that are said (by the "experts") to contain "trans fat." Otherwise, how could it be "dangeorus?" The same bonds are in all fat sources. We know coconut oil is fine, and it is highly saturated. We know that most "experts" are saying you need to eat quite a bit of fatty acids that have double bonds. "Trans fat" has an amount of double bonds that is close to olive oil, which is being touted by the "experts" as the "healthiest" oil. As I've said in other posts, low quality olive oil is very bad news, whereas the highest quality olive oil is fine, but don't heat it or eat it if it has a rancid taste to it. Why? Because if there are a lot of double bonds, they need to be protected with antioxidants, and the high quality olive oil will have quite a bit of squalene, which is a potent antioxidant, whereas the low quality olive oil may have none by the time it reaches your mouth.
Many "experts" are talking about "trans fat" as if it is something from a science fiction movie: "mutant fat from mars." If you don't understand or "believe" me, do your own experiment: get some mice and feed half of them the cheapest vegetable oil you can find, along with a standard "chow" that is low fat or no fat. Feed the other half a "trans fat" source such as "partially hydrogenated" palm kernel oil. The fat should be around 25-30% of daily calories. See which group lives longer.
A new fat source, consisting of fully hydrogenated cottonseed oil blended with "vegetable oil" that is highly unsaturated is now being marketed as "trans fat free." If my argument is correct, this fat source should be no better than existing the existing major "trans fat" sources, like margarines. Again, if you were to give half of a group of animals the new concotion, and the other half the old "trans fat" laden margarines, there should be little if any difference, unless one of them has a significanly higher amount of antioxidants. So first the Rancimat test could be run on these two fat sources. If the Rancimat tests were about the same, then you could do the experiment on the animals. Accoriding to the "experts" who are raging against "trans fat," the animals on the new concoction should live longer and healthier lives. According to my argument, there should be little difference, though the new concoction may actually be less healthy (this has to do with a tangential issue, so I won't go into it here).
Again, you should be asking yourself, "why won't these 'experts' do such simple and inexpensive experiments that would be conclusive?"
I don't know, but now, for a hundred dollars or so (the mice would cost about $10 for a bunch of them), you could do it yourself and find out.
nospam@aol.com - 11 Feb 2006 06:35 GMT >"...reducing the proportion of unsaturated fatty acids which are at >risk of oxidation creates shortening that is less likely to turn [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/trans-fatty-acid What is a "typical candy bar"? And why would you use such a silly example? I realize that the website used the example but you used it also signifying that you agree with it.
Ora
montygram - 11 Feb 2006 06:48 GMT It was an example of the danger: lipid peroxidation. If you used a fat source that was 100% saturated, it would last for months, at least. I have had bottles of coconut oil that I stored about 2 years, and it had no antioxidants added to it - no additives of any kind. When I opened it up, it still tasted like it was fresh. This was the Coconut Oil Supreme brand, which I got on a web site, for those interested (I have no affiliation with them, and actually I now buy the cheap local stuff, because I only use it to "butter up" pans for bread baking). This example shows that even when highly unsaturated fat sources have been partially hydrogenated, you still have to worry about them "going bad" after a mere 30 days.
Again, if you don't understand it all, you don't have to - just do the simple and inexpensive experiment and see for yourself.
montygram - 12 Feb 2006 10:00 GMT I should also mention that I do agree with this poster in that the statement is problematic because it is true that a product made with partially hydrogenated palm kernel or coconut oil will last a long time, whereas a much more unsaturated oil that is minimally hydrogenated will not last nearly as long, so there should be more precision in the statement. As I said, that was not why I cited it. Rather, I have argued for a different kind of "nutritional science" - one that examines what is happening at the molecular level, as well as in actual diets, as opposed to making up abstract, misleading categories like "saturated fat," "trans fat," "fiber," etc.
Another point worth making is that the early studies on "trans fat" found that it raised total and LDL cholesterol, while lowering HDL or having little efffect. This is only "bad" if your cholesterol has been damaged by oxidation. If not, "high" LDL and TC is healthy, if by that is meant TC in the 200-220 range, for example (as Ancel Keys himself pointed out in 1979, if not earlier). You can read books like "Heart Failure," "The Cholesterol Conspiracy," "Saturated fat may save your life," and "The Cholesterol Myths" to see how the evidence is misunderstood, though some of these authors are unaware of the key point about how cholesterol is damaged by free radicals (or at least they were not aware when the books were published).
As an aside, I must say this new google feature that allows one to rate posts is excellent. Now, instead of having to hear the same people make the same remarks (that I have refuted over and over again), they can just give all my posts the worst rating without actually reading any of the post, thereby sparing those who seek scientific explanations the usual nonsense.
Cubit - 12 Feb 2006 16:59 GMT Partialy hydrogenating oils dates back to the beginning of the last century. In the 50's many common foods were established as Generaly Accepted As Safe without any studies.
There is no incentive for industry to pay for studies on substances they are already allowed to use in foods.
My guess is that some transfat will turn out to be good, and some transfats will turn out to be bad. In the meantime, there needs to be a review of substances used in our foods, which do not exist in nature.
It may be a coincidence that CVD and mental illnesses have increased since the 20's when margarine was a cheap substitute for butter. However, I have a hunch that industrial transfats are poison.
How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?" By building cellwalls out a form of fat that does not exist in nature, one may interfere with the complex functions of the cell walls.
Mr-Natural-Health - 12 Feb 2006 23:34 GMT > How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?" By building cellwalls out a form > of fat that does not exist in nature, one may interfere with the complex > functions of the cell walls. Finally, a reply that I can reply to.
Approximately 2% of the caveman diet consisted of trans-fat. They have the same negatives as saturated fat, plus trans-fat will lower your HDL levels.
They are no more a poison than rancid PUFSAs are.
They are hardly worth mentioning since you usually do not have the opportunity to avoid them by reading food labels. Hence, your only strategy is to minimize your consumption of junk food.
Avoid junk food and you have accomplished a number of objectives. Hence, there is little or no reason to talk about trans-fats. -- John Gohde, Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the mind-body connection. Weighing in at 17 web pages, The Nutrition of a Healthy Diet ( http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/ ) is now with more documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.
David Harmon - 13 Feb 2006 08:51 GMT On 10 Feb 2006 20:17:43 -0800 in sci.med.nutrition, "montygram" <nazztrader@lycos.com> wrote,
>So how can we define "trans fat" in a scientific way? It's possible, >but only in an abstract way that is unrelated to health. It's simple. If some of the carbon double bonds are in a trans configuration, then it is a trans fat. If all of them are cis, then it is not. About as non-abstract as one could hope for. Do you disagree with that?
Whether or not it is related to health is not a matter to be answered by definition.
montygram - 13 Feb 2006 10:50 GMT "Trans fat" may mean that one double bond was changed within a huge amount of a fat source, and that is true of natural sources of fat, such as dairy. Such as fat is not at all dangerous. "Trans fat" where almost all is now saturated is also fine, unless toxic nickel or something like that is also in there. My point is that the real problem is that the food that is called "high in trans fat" acts as an oxidizing agent more than most other fat sources. They add antioxidants later, such as the alpha form of vitamin E, which unbalances tocopherols, and appears (from preliminary studies) to be unhealthy (in the context of the "typical" diet, anyway).
As to notions of "disrupted lipid bilayer membranes," Gilbert Ling has demonstrated that this is ridiculous. Read one of his books. He examines all the evidence in great detail. The problem is too many double bonds, of whatever configuration, and improper antioxidant protection. The trans form will interfere with AA metabolization, but that is actually good ("anti-inflammatory"), though it's better not to have any AA in your body in the first place, and of course a huge amount of trans double bonds in the diet is bad news, though it's not clear whether it's from the lipid peroxidation or something else. Experiments could be done though, by giving animals a lot of trans double bonds, but also diverse and plenty of antioxidants, while another group got no added antioxidants. If the trans configuration was dangerous by itself, both groups should have similar health problems.
Ask yourself, "why hasn't a simple, inexpensive, on point, and definitive study been done?"
The reason is that most "experts" are on the "wrong track," thinking that the configuration is the problem, when it is too many double bonds and not enough proper antioxidant protection.
But "trans fat" makes no sense, because, as I said, with a highly saturated fat source and few trans bonds, the physiological effects will be the same as a highly saturated fat source. With a light hydrogenation of a highly polyunsaturated fat source, the effects will also be the same, as long as the non-hydrogenated PUFA oil has been refined using modern methods (I'm assuming no antioxidants are added to any of these fat sources).
Knack - 14 Feb 2006 05:03 GMT > "Trans fat" may mean that one double bond was changed within a huge > amount of a fat source, and that is true of natural sources of fat, > such as dairy. Such as fat is not at all dangerous. "Trans fat" where > almost all is now saturated is also fine, unless toxic nickel or > something like that is also in there. I eat baked salmon fillet once per week. I have observed a remarkable difference between farm raised Atlantic salmon and wild Pacific chinook salmon as a result of cooking for 10 minutes in a 350°F (177°C) oven. The latter fish then shows an alabaster white fat which has mostly drained off the flesh and semisolidified off to the side, whereas the former fish does not show this at all. Because the observed fat is neither liquid nor transparent, I conclude that it is saturated fat.
Wild salmon flesh reportedly contains far greater concentrations of EPA and DHA PUFAs than farm raised salmon flesh. So is the aforementioned fat a saturated fat that preexisted before the fish was baked, or is it instead a saturated transfat that formed as a result of the reaction between the omega-3 PUFAs and fleshborn water?
Note that the flesh of the wild salmon did *not* have a "marbled" appearance of saturated fat (as is seen in a raw beef steak) before I cooked it.
David Harmon - 15 Feb 2006 03:35 GMT On 13 Feb 2006 02:50:12 -0800 in sci.med.nutrition, "montygram" <nazztrader@lycos.com> wrote,
> My point is that the real problem is that the food that is called >"high in trans fat" acts as an oxidizing agent more than most other >fat sources. Why is fat with trans bonds more of an oxidizing agent than with cis bonds?
Knack - 14 Feb 2006 05:49 GMT > All the "bad news" is based on "correlations" and "associations." > There was quite a bit of investigation into "trans fat" a few decades > ago, and those studies did not find the major health risks being > claimed for "trans fat" today (see "Modern Nutrition in Health and > Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition, or "Diet and Health" by the > National Research Council, for example). About that book you mentioned-- 'Diet and Health'. Are you referring to 'Diet and Health: Implications for Reducing Chronic Disease Risk', the book published by the National Academy of Sciences way back in 1989? If so, has it been updated with any new editions since 1989?
Knack - 14 Feb 2006 06:12 GMT > If you were to use fresh, unrefined > safflower oil, and eat plenty of antioxidant-rich foods with it, you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > measured scientifically, and often is (such tests are Rancimat and > ORAC, for example). First of all you are comparing apples with oranges. Why not instead compare processed foods with and without the added antioxidants? And why do you believe that the added antioxidants of processed foods stop working when they are consumed? Since you're the one making the claim, the burden of evidence is on you.
Jenn - 26 Feb 2006 14:58 GMT Hi everyone! I am a college student in a nutrition and computers class and I am completing an assignment where I have to subscribe to a listserv and reply to topics. So I figured I will just post what I have been taught about Trans fats for those who may need it broken down to a simpler level =-) Trans fats are unsaturated fatty acids that are produced when vegetable oils are partially hydrogenated. They are used to improve freshness of products because hydrogenated oils are able to resist rancidity longer than un-hydrogenated oil (they increase the shelf life of a product) as well as produce taste and texture improvements such as flakier pie crusts, crispier chips, and spreadable margarine. Trans fats are currently looked at in a negative way becuase they have been shown to raise LDL levels and reduce HDL levels, these results pose a higher risk for heart disease.
joni - 26 Feb 2006 18:51 GMT > So I figured I will just post what I have been taught about Trans fats for those > who may need it broken down to a simpler level =-) A little more science: http://www.bantransfats.com/abouttransfat.html
joanne
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