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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2006AHA on soy: They've changed their tune
They are saying it is not the miracle food it was once reported to be. http://mediresource.sympatico.ca/health_news_detail.asp?channel_id=0&news_id=906 5&rss=72 Rob When I was in my teens and early 20s, all you heard was how everyone should switch to "polyunsaturated fats like safflower and sunflower oil." You don't hear that any more, but they never said exactly why. It was known at the time, however, that these kinds of oils increase incidence of the "common cancers" considerably, suppress the immune system, bring out genetic defects, etc. It had been known for at least a couple of decades up to that point, actually. The "experts" are always "behind the times" because they are essentially repeating textbook propaganda that was only designed to be a suggestion or "model" in the first place. Because people have difficulty thinking with any ambivalence, they tend to take things as "truth" that were at best working assumptions. That was the case with soy. Still, fermented soy in small amounts is okay. Tofu or the bean in a raw or lightly cooked state should not be eaten, except in the most minute quantities, but what would be the point of doing that? > When I was in my teens and early 20s, all you heard was how everyone > should switch to "polyunsaturated fats like safflower and sunflower > oil." You don't hear that any more, but they never said exactly why. Some people differ between commercials aired on cable TV and scientific reality. > It was known at the time, however, that these kinds of oils increase > incidence of the "common cancers" considerably, suppress the immune > system, bring out genetic defects, etc. Back up your claim and post a citation where it is shown that PUFA in the ammounts recommended by the WHO (or your country) increase the incidence of cancers in humans. > It had been known for at least > a couple of decades up to that point, actually. The "experts" are > always "behind the times" because they are essentially repeating > textbook propaganda that was only designed to be a suggestion or > "model" in the first place. Hmm.. if that is so: who makes the actual new research? Amateurs? > Because people have difficulty thinking > with any ambivalence, they tend to take things as "truth" that were at > best working assumptions. That was the case with soy. People have difficulty differing between things blown out of proportion by other people who want to make money with said things. > Still, > fermented soy in small amounts is okay. You are aware that fermented soy contains almost exclusively unsaturated fatty acids? How does that fit into your story? I've addressed all this before, MMu, but you appear to have severe reading comprehension problems. Let's just take one example here, because there is no reason to make you look like more of a fool than you clearly are: "You are aware that fermented soy contains almost exclusively unsaturated fatty acids?" How many unsaturated fatty acid molecules are there in a 16 ounce bottle of soy sauce? > I've addressed all this before, MMu, but you appear to have severe > reading comprehension problems. Adressed? Yes. Posted said study as evidence: No. If you adressed a problem is meaningless since its nothing but an amateurs' opinion- you can post a study however, if there is one, and we can discuss that study. > Let's just take one example here, > because there is no reason to make you look like more of a fool than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How many unsaturated fatty acid molecules are there in a 16 ounce > bottle of soy sauce? About 6,022*10^20 molecules- but is soy sauce a main food item in your mind? Who drinks soy sauce in significant quantities? Look up tofu (which IS a main food item) which was specifically mentioned by in your last post 5g/100g unsaturated, 4g thereof PUFA. > Back up your claim and post a citation where it is shown that PUFA in the > ammounts recommended by the WHO (or your country) increase the incidence of > cancers in humans. This is obviously not a study about cancer, but about all-cause death, which is far more important IMHO: "Patients who already had one heart attack were assigned to one of three groups and given polyunsaturated corn oil, monounsaturated olive oil and saturated animal fats respectively. The endpoints were further heart attack or death. Blood cholesterol levels were lowered by an average of 30 percent in the corn oil group while there was no change in the other two groups. However, at the end of the two-year trial only 52 percent of the corn oil group were still alive and free of a fresh heart attack. Those on the monounsaturated olive oil fared little better: 57 percent survived and had no further heart attack. But those eating saturated animal fats fared the best with 75 percent surviving and without further attack (BMJ 1965;1:1531-33)" > People have difficulty differing between things blown out of proportion by > other people who want to make money with said things. Well put. > You are aware that fermented soy contains almost exclusively unsaturated > fatty acids? > How does that fit into your story? I'm having trouble figuring out if you're for or against soy products. I think we've started seeing the very early stages of the public waking up to realize that soy isn't the cure-all it was once touted to be. I'm seeing more and more information available about just how bad soy can be. Example: http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz It only stands to reason. We know that refined foods are generally bad for us... and manufacturers are trying to make soy foods to replace every type of meat product on the market. You can't really do that without some major refining of soy. Doesn't it seem odd that a carton of soy milk can sit on an unrefrigerated store shelf for 6 months without going bad? I'm concerned about the statement (from the Am Heart Fnd I think?) that even though soy hasn't proven to be as good as we thought, it still *should be* because it lowers serum cholesterol. There is mounting evidence that serum cholesterol levels have almost no correlation with all cause death. If you artificially lower serum cholesterol to prevent heart disease, you increase risk of death by other means (most notably stroke.) I think that statement shows how backwards our "health experts" really have become. Max. Tofu or the bean in a raw or > lightly cooked state should not be eaten, except in the most minute > quantities, but what would be the point of doing that? I dont understand what montygram means by saying that tofu should not be eaten. The article did not say that. It said that tofu was a good food, it just wasnt a medicine that prevented cholesterol from forming in the blood. Calorie for calorie it was a healthy food to eat and it would produce less cholesterol in the blood than a hamburger for instance. It said tofu should be eaten. I dont understand why Montygram wrote what he wrote. I quote the article next. Thanks. "Soy proteins and isoflavones don't have any major health benefits other than soy protein products are generally good foods," said Dr. Frank Sacks, a professor of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston who led the committee. "They're good to replace other foods that are high in cholesterol." Still, the Heart Association statement notes that soy products like tofu, soy butter, soy nuts and some soy burgers should be heart-healthy because they contain a lot of polyunsaturated fats, fibre, vitamins and minerals and are low in saturated fat. > Tofu or the bean in a raw or > > lightly cooked state should not be eaten, except in the most minute [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > because they contain a lot of polyunsaturated fats, fibre, vitamins and > minerals and are low in saturated fat. They wish. Soy is not real food. The phyto-toxins and phyto-estrogens in unfermented soy is not healthy for humans. TC > > Tofu or the bean in a raw or > > > lightly cooked state should not be eaten, except in the most minute [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > They wish. Soy is not real food. The phyto-toxins and phyto-estrogens > in unfermented soy is not healthy for humans. What a crock! > TC TC is correct. I have eaten tempeh once in a while. Low in fat, fermented, it's okay, but not something that is especially good in any way. Organic canned corn is probably better, though lower in protein content. Corn oil or soybean oil, on the other hand, should never be consumed. For those who don't understand how flawed the positions taken by the AHA and similar organization have been in the past, search this group for montygram and read some of my posts. Their own spokesman, Dr. Ricard Stein, has said that only oxidized cholesterol is a problem, so that's what you should avoid. Otherwise, your cholesterol levels should be between 200 and 220, as Ancel Keys said in 1979, if not earlier. Lard should be avoided because it goes rancid easily and will oxdize cholesterol, whereas coconut oil will not, which explains why those eating most of their fat calories as coconut oil have almost no heart disease. "Nutritional experts" have mistakenly classified both lard and coconut oil as "saturated fats," even though lard is about 39% saturated - it makes no sense at all. Now that the oxidative stress/lipid peroxidation mechanisms are known, this and other old, misleading notions should be discarded, but unfortunately, they persist, which is why I post here. For those who don't know, and this appears to be true for MMu, considering his statement: "Look up tofu (which IS a main food item) which was specifically mentioned by in your last post 5g/100g unsaturated, 4g thereof PUFA.": Tofu is not fermented, and there is really no reason to eat this stuff, unless you wish yourself ill health. "Studies" that "find benfits" from it compare people eating pork rinds and fried steak to tofu-eaters. Putting aside the socio-economic differences that often exist between these kinds of people, it is accurate to say that you will see a lower incidence of "heart disease" among the soy-eaters, and usually, they blame "saturated fat." However, the stress and damage caused by lipid peroxidation will be much lower among the soy-eaters, and saturated fatty acids act as inhibitors of free radical activity, precluding them from being a problem (and this is demonstrated by coconut eaters who don't get heart disease, even though coconut fat is 92% saturated). Soy-eaters will have other problems, as I discovered. My digestive ability was brought down to nearly nothing on a diet high in fiber and legumes. It almost killed me. But the "studies" are almost all short term and never look at all the health effects, just the ones that interest them. It is very unscientific. For those who don't know, and this appears to be true for MMu, considering his statement: "Look up tofu (which IS a main food item) which was specifically mentioned by in your last post 5g/100g unsaturated, 4g thereof PUFA.": Tofu is not fermented, and there is really no reason to eat this stuff, unless you wish yourself ill health. "Studies" that "find benfits" from it compare people eating pork rinds and fried steak to tofu-eaters. Putting aside the socio-economic differences that often exist between these kinds of people, it is accurate to say that you will see a lower incidence of "heart disease" among the soy-eaters, and usually, they blame "saturated fat." However, the stress and damage caused by lipid peroxidation will be much lower among the soy-eaters, and saturated fatty acids act as inhibitors of free radical activity, precluding them from being a problem (and this is demonstrated by coconut eaters who don't get heart disease, even though coconut fat is 92% saturated). Soy-eaters will have other problems, as I discovered. My digestive ability was brought down to nearly nothing on a diet high in fiber and legumes. It almost killed me. But the "studies" are almost all short term and never look at all the health effects, just the ones that interest them. It is very unscientific. |
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