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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2006

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Distance Sought Between Doctors and Drug Industry

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TC - 26 Jan 2006 22:11 GMT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401483.html

Distance Sought Between Doctors and Drug Industry

By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 25, 2006; Page A08

Declaring that the pervasive influence of drug industry money is
distorting doctors' treatment decisions and scientific findings, a
prestigious panel of medical experts called on their colleagues
yesterday to adopt far-reaching new conflict-of-interest policies.

In an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the
group said that voluntary efforts to limit corporate inducements have
failed, resulting in the overprescribing of some medications and the
withholding of negative discoveries about others. Highly publicized
cases involving the anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx, antidepressants for
children and spinal implants made by Medtronic -- all occurring while
voluntary guidelines were in place -- highlight the need for stricter
measures, they said.

Proposal Highlights
A physicians group called for new steps to sever ties between
manufacturers and practitioners at academic medical centers.

· Ban gifts to physicians from drug and device makers, including
meals and payment for travel and continuing education.

· Bar direct distribution of drug samples to physicians. Replace them
with vouchers for low-income patients.

· Exclude physicians with financial relationships to manufacturers
from committees overseeing preferrred drug lists.

· Ban physicians from speaking at manufacturers' events or publishing
articles ghost-written by industry employees.

· Post consulting and research contracts on a publicly available Web
site.

SOURCE: Journal of the American Medical Association
GRAPHIC: The Washington Post

Who's Blogging?
Read what bloggers are saying about this article.
symtym | main
For Doctors, Nurses, and the Medical Profession | Medical Talent
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Most Blogged About Articles
On washingtonpost.com | On the web

"My mother told me never to accept gifts from strangers. If a stranger
wants to give you a gift, it's very likely they want something in
return," said Jordan J. Cohen, president of the Association of American
Medical Colleges and a co-author of the new proposal. "We've become
overly dependent on these kinds of blandishments to support our core
activities, and that is jeopardizing public trust and scientific
integrity."

The panel -- which includes Cohen, officials from several medical
schools and members of the Institute on Medicine as a Profession --
urged the nation's 400 teaching hospitals to impose stringent measures,
including a ban on accepting gifts, meals and drug samples and tight
restrictions on outside income. A series of articles published today in
the journal Academic Medicine reach similar conclusions, noting that
strict, standardized policies are needed to ensure patients receive
unbiased, evidence-based treatments.

Spokesmen for the pharmaceutical industry said the extra steps are
unnecessary and could deprive physicians of valuable information.

>From their first rounds as residents, doctors travel in a world
increasingly dominated by drug company salespeople proffering meals,
office supplies, entertainment and even cash to speak at conferences or
sit on advisory boards.

Some physicians have been paid lucrative consulting retainers for no
specific work; others are paid to put their names on articles
ghostwritten by industry employees. One congressional inquiry cited in
the report found that pharmaceutical executives steer research grants
to doctors and schools that promote their firms' drugs.

"The problem has gotten worse and worse and worse," Cohen said. The
relationships can prompt doctors to order unnecessary tests, prescribe
more expensive medicines or advocate adding certain medications to a
hospital's list of preferred drugs, he said.

Although most doctors say their relationships with drugmakers do not
affect medical decisions, numerous studies suggest otherwise.

"There is solid evidence it isn't the size of the gift, it's the
gifting itself that creates a sense of loyalty and indebtedness," said
Sharon Levine, associate executive director of Kaiser Permanente's
Northern California group practice. The 6,000-doctor practice and the
Yale University School of Medicine are among the only institutions in
the nation to implement policies similar to those outlined in JAMA.

"The industry is spending $13 billion per year on direct-to-physician
promotion," she continued. "That wouldn't be happening if it weren't
resulting in changing patterns of utilization. It doesn't necessarily
mean patients are getting bad care, but it does mean their influence is
out there."

Judging from the "grumbling" he has heard from physicians, Scott
Lassman, assistant general counsel at the Pharmaceutical Research and
Manufacturers of America, the industry's lobbying group, said voluntary
guidelines issued by industry, government and the profession in recent
years seem to be working. Modest gifts such as lunch or pens may
persuade a doctor "to listen to the presentation of information, not
necessarily to prescribe that product." And having those discussions
over a "working meal" is merely a timesaver for busy doctors, he said.

But the JAMA authors said it is a costly mistake to confuse marketing
with scientific data.

"Drug companies spend $13,000 per physician annually," said co-author
David J. Rothman, a professor of social medicine at Columbia University
Medical Center. "Those marketing tactics are very, very effective at
getting physicians to do what each drug company wants -- to prescribe
their product."

The team conducted focus groups with doctors who "came right out and
said if one drug rep is nicer than another, I'm going to prescribe that
person's drug, all else being equal," said co-author David Blumenthal,
director of the Institute for Health Policy at Massachusetts General
Hospital. In a second article, Blumenthal found that conflicts of
interest have contributed to growing secrecy in research, with some
scientists intentionally omitting negative findings about a drug or
device.

Rather than severing all ties to the pharmaceutical industry, the panel
suggested creating financial firewalls. Instead of paying a physician
directly for continuing medical education, it would be more appropriate
for drug companies to contribute to a central account that supported
educational programs, they wrote. In addition, payments for outside
work such as speeches or consulting should be explicitly defined and
posted on the Internet.

Finally, the group urged the nation's 125 medical schools and
affiliated hospitals to refuse drug samples and instead create a
voucher system or central distribution bank for poor patients.

"The availability of free samples is a powerful inducement for
physicians and patients to rely on medications that are expensive but
not more effective," the JAMA article said. In most cases, once
patients begin the expensive drug regimen, they are inclined to stick
with it.

Some industry experts said the recommendations underestimated the
ability of physicians and patients to think on their own.

"I subscribe to the crazy view that more information is better," said
Daniel Troy, former chief counsel of the Food and Drug Administration.
"This very sweeping proposed ban would really choke off an important
flow of information to physicians."

A drug sample handed out in a doctor's office is a good way to begin
treatment immediately, he said, rather than waiting to have a
prescription filled.

Cohen predicted the industry and many medical institutions would blanch
at the recommendations. But both could stand to improve their
reputations, he said. He added: "We need a strong, ethical, effective
partnership with industry."

***

TC
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 29 Jan 2006 03:57 GMT
The first thing Doctors and the Drug Industry should separate themselves
from are anti-depressants.     EVERYBODY is in danger of being prescribed an
anti-depressant.
The dangerous side effects of anti-depressants are not known to the drug
industry or the physician.   Because it is not scientific it is not accepted
if told to physicians.    That the damage is clear to note though is
evidenced by crohns and UC illnesses being caused by stimulants. (ie. xanax,
buspar, depakote, marijuana, cocaine, ALL ANTI-DEPRESSANTS, kava kava, st
johns wort,  all herbs with stimulants etc etc. etc)     And far beyond
crohns with symptoms occurring in any part of the body, and unexpected
deaths, and stillborns born to mothers on anti-depressants during pregnancy,
rumination happening to babies born to mothers on recreational drugs or
anti-depressants,  there is a mysterious mind/body connection, literally
that produces these illnesses.   Manmade illness probably from the beginning
of time, but never brpight to the attention of the world as such, until Dr.
Burrill Crohns and colleagues researched these mysterious ailments  in 1932
or before.
This is my personal theory of the cause of crohns and UC.    I am not a
doctor, just  an observer of many years and experience of these mysterious
illnesses  for which so far research in all the world has produced no cause.
Crohns and UC do not have a medical cause, but become a necessity for
medical treatment.
And to make it more strange, the people involved (one on a stimulant
affecting another that may be on no meds by the mind/body connection ) do
not have to be in the same room for the crohnie to suffer the damage, they
can be miles and miles apart, only the stimulant and the mind/body
connection is necessary.
Why stimulants have an unfavorable propensity for causing harm to others not
using the meds or drugs is a question that cannot be answered, only observed
for it to be known.
Research on children that have Inflammatory Bowel Disease are the easiest to
cure as they do not have friends on stimulants.   It is usually the mother
or caretaker or perhaps another friend or relative on a stimulant that can
cause the child to be ill.     This can prove the theory quickly and
effectively if the proper studies are done.
When a physican prescribes anti-depressants,  other relatives and friends
are  in jeopardy of becoming ill.
Of course, anti-depressants have their good use also, but the side effects
should become known so that proper measures can be taken to lessen the
numbers of illness they cause.
As in unstitutions and nursing homes, they are prescribed to many residents
and the others not on meds (if they are aware and can relate to one another)
are in dire straits of becoming ill with no one realizing what is happening.
Until this is recognized, the world will tend to mental/physical illnesses,
depression, fatigue, and all manner of  illness not recognized as those of
the use of anti-depressants by another person.
Yes, the effects of anti-depressants to another person is so weird, that it
is incomprehensible.
It is becoming aware that anti-depressants have a dangerous side effect, but
not soon enough for the numbers affected that suffer terrible damages,
surgery, death at the worst.
Health Canada is beginning to note this, citing Paxil as a harmful drug for
pregnant women, but it is not Paxil alone, it is ANY ANTI-DEPRESSANT.
I could say volumes on this, but as a beginning, the newspapers, researchers
should gear some of their research first on children with IBD, then to
everyone that suffers crohns and UC and to others that suffer undiagnosed
illnesses for which no reason is discernible for their illness.     Rule out
organic illnesses.     These are not organic illnesses as Dr. Burrill Crohns
pointed out.   He concluded they are environmental.
The health of millions  depend on this, plus billions of dollars spent on
research that brings better treatments.     But the core of the problem is
what is needed to be known, so that individuals, parents, institutions,
nursing homes  can adjust their policies.

Gail Michael
Chicago, Illinois
Advocate147@aol.com

Distance Sought Between Doctors and Drug Industry

By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 25, 2006; Page A08

Declaring that the pervasive influence of drug industry money is
distorting doctors' treatment decisions and scientific findings, a
prestigious panel of medical experts called on their colleagues
yesterday to adopt far-reaching new conflict-of-interest policies.

In an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the
group said that voluntary efforts to limit corporate inducements have
failed, resulting in the overprescribing of some medications and the
withholding of negative discoveries about others. Highly publicized
cases involving the anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx, antidepressants for
children and spinal implants made by Medtronic -- all occurring while
voluntary guidelines were in place -- highlight the need for stricter
measures, they said.

Proposal Highlights
A physicians group called for new steps to sever ties between
manufacturers and practitioners at academic medical centers.

· Ban gifts to physicians from drug and device makers, including
meals and payment for travel and continuing education.

· Bar direct distribution of drug samples to physicians. Replace them
with vouchers for low-income patients.

· Exclude physicians with financial relationships to manufacturers
from committees overseeing preferrred drug lists.

· Ban physicians from speaking at manufacturers' events or publishing
articles ghost-written by industry employees.

· Post consulting and research contracts on a publicly available Web
site.

SOURCE: Journal of the American Medical Association
GRAPHIC: The Washington Post

Who's Blogging?
Read what bloggers are saying about this article.
symtym | main
For Doctors, Nurses, and the Medical Profession | Medical Talent
Health Care Renewal

Full List of Blogs (9 links) »

Most Blogged About Articles
On washingtonpost.com | On the web

"My mother told me never to accept gifts from strangers. If a stranger
wants to give you a gift, it's very likely they want something in
return," said Jordan J. Cohen, president of the Association of American
Medical Colleges and a co-author of the new proposal. "We've become
overly dependent on these kinds of blandishments to support our core
activities, and that is jeopardizing public trust and scientific
integrity."

The panel -- which includes Cohen, officials from several medical
schools and members of the Institute on Medicine as a Profession --
urged the nation's 400 teaching hospitals to impose stringent measures,
including a ban on accepting gifts, meals and drug samples and tight
restrictions on outside income. A series of articles published today in
the journal Academic Medicine reach similar conclusions, noting that
strict, standardized policies are needed to ensure patients receive
unbiased, evidence-based treatments.

Spokesmen for the pharmaceutical industry said the extra steps are
unnecessary and could deprive physicians of valuable information.

>From their first rounds as residents, doctors travel in a world
increasingly dominated by drug company salespeople proffering meals,
office supplies, entertainment and even cash to speak at conferences or
sit on advisory boards.

Some physicians have been paid lucrative consulting retainers for no
specific work; others are paid to put their names on articles
ghostwritten by industry employees. One congressional inquiry cited in
the report found that pharmaceutical executives steer research grants
to doctors and schools that promote their firms' drugs.

"The problem has gotten worse and worse and worse," Cohen said. The
relationships can prompt doctors to order unnecessary tests, prescribe
more expensive medicines or advocate adding certain medications to a
hospital's list of preferred drugs, he said.

Although most doctors say their relationships with drugmakers do not
affect medical decisions, numerous studies suggest otherwise.

"There is solid evidence it isn't the size of the gift, it's the
gifting itself that creates a sense of loyalty and indebtedness," said
Sharon Levine, associate executive director of Kaiser Permanente's
Northern California group practice. The 6,000-doctor practice and the
Yale University School of Medicine are among the only institutions in
the nation to implement policies similar to those outlined in JAMA.

"The industry is spending $13 billion per year on direct-to-physician
promotion," she continued. "That wouldn't be happening if it weren't
resulting in changing patterns of utilization. It doesn't necessarily
mean patients are getting bad care, but it does mean their influence is
out there."

Judging from the "grumbling" he has heard from physicians, Scott
Lassman, assistant general counsel at the Pharmaceutical Research and
Manufacturers of America, the industry's lobbying group, said voluntary
guidelines issued by industry, government and the profession in recent
years seem to be working. Modest gifts such as lunch or pens may
persuade a doctor "to listen to the presentation of information, not
necessarily to prescribe that product." And having those discussions
over a "working meal" is merely a timesaver for busy doctors, he said.

But the JAMA authors said it is a costly mistake to confuse marketing
with scientific data.

"Drug companies spend $13,000 per physician annually," said co-author
David J. Rothman, a professor of social medicine at Columbia University
Medical Center. "Those marketing tactics are very, very effective at
getting physicians to do what each drug company wants -- to prescribe
their product."

The team conducted focus groups with doctors who "came right out and
said if one drug rep is nicer than another, I'm going to prescribe that
person's drug, all else being equal," said co-author David Blumenthal,
director of the Institute for Health Policy at Massachusetts General
Hospital. In a second article, Blumenthal found that conflicts of
interest have contributed to growing secrecy in research, with some
scientists intentionally omitting negative findings about a drug or
device.

Rather than severing all ties to the pharmaceutical industry, the panel
suggested creating financial firewalls. Instead of paying a physician
directly for continuing medical education, it would be more appropriate
for drug companies to contribute to a central account that supported
educational programs, they wrote. In addition, payments for outside
work such as speeches or consulting should be explicitly defined and
posted on the Internet.

Finally, the group urged the nation's 125 medical schools and
affiliated hospitals to refuse drug samples and instead create a
voucher system or central distribution bank for poor patients.

"The availability of free samples is a powerful inducement for
physicians and patients to rely on medications that are expensive but
not more effective," the JAMA article said. In most cases, once
patients begin the expensive drug regimen, they are inclined to stick
with it.

Some industry experts said the recommendations underestimated the
ability of physicians and patients to think on their own.

"I subscribe to the crazy view that more information is better," said
Daniel Troy, former chief counsel of the Food and Drug Administration.
"This very sweeping proposed ban would really choke off an important
flow of information to physicians."

A drug sample handed out in a doctor's office is a good way to begin
treatment immediately, he said, rather than waiting to have a
prescription filled.

Cohen predicted the industry and many medical institutions would blanch
at the recommendations. But both could stand to improve their
reputations, he said. He added: "We need a strong, ethical, effective
partnership with industry."

***

TC
TC - 30 Jan 2006 15:11 GMT
I used to suffer from anxiety/depression so I went to my GP. In less
than ten minutes I had a prescription for an anti-depressant. It seemed
to helped a bit, but not much. In six months I had had enough with the
side effects. The withdrawal just about drove me nuts for about two or
three weeks.

I started researching alternatives. Found out on the internet that some
people found B vitamin therapy to work. I started taking two b vitamin
complex stress formula tabs a day, in the morning, with food. Major
difference, but still maybe about 75% where I wanted to be. Months
later, for entirely unrelated reasons, I tried a C vitamin flush (up to
18,000 mgs per day for four days). Within two days my wife noticed the
difference in my moods. I am now clear of any anxiety or depression
symptoms. I take upwards of 3 or 4 - 1000 mgs vitamin C along with the
b vitamins.

Sugar and crap refined carbs will deplete you of these important
nutrients. We evolved to eat foods with smaller amounts of carbs.
Todays fruits and veggies have been bred to be a lot sweeter than they
used to be. When our body metabolizes carbs it has to use up some
vitamins in the process. When the food is less sweet and rich in
vitamins, a lot of vitamins are left over for other needs. When you eat
pure refined carbs with no inherent vitamins, the body has to get
vitamins from somewhere in order to be able to metabolize the carbs.
The body end up getting the needed vitamins from your bodies vitamins
stores and depletes you of those vitamins.

The more of these fake foods and less real foods we have in our diet,
the more depleted of these vitamins we end up being and the more mental
and physical problems we will suffer from. We are talking about a
simple and across the board nutritional deficiency. Malnourishment.

The brain is an organ and it needs the right nutrients in the right
amounts to function properly. When they say you have a chemical
imbalance, they are talking about chemicals that we are supposed to be
getting from our diet. Where else would our bodies get these chemicals
from? What else would cause a chemical imbalance. Food is the chemical
input for our bodies.

We do not get a chemical imbalance because of the lack of a given pill
in our diet.

We get a chemical imbalance because of malnourishment. Getting the
wrong nutrients from manufactured foods or not getting enough of the
right nutrients from real and nutritious foods. Nutrients are the
chemicals that allow us to live and gives us excellent health, mentally
and physically.

TC

> The first thing Doctors and the Drug Industry should separate themselves
> from are anti-depressants.     EVERYBODY is in danger of being prescribed an
[quoted text clipped - 234 lines]
>
> TC
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 30 Jan 2006 16:36 GMT
TC,

I am sure there is a lot of merit in nutrition for depression.    But I
think that applies to a chemical imbalance induced depression.   It  cannot
solve situational depression, unless lifting the depression makes one more
capable of putting things in perspective.
I am glad for you, that nutrition works, but I think too much of Vitamin C,
may not be too good.
I would be able to function very well with anti-depressants, but knowing
what I do about them, the prospect of harming others, makes it impossible
for me to use them.    So I am left in quite a quandry.    I look for
answers but there is none to soften the blow of stimulants in causing crohns
and UC to the vulnerable, so I feel a very depressed uselessness in that
area.
But everyone knowing this can be a factor in their physical and mental
problems that have no organic origin may help immeasureably to curb all of
the problems many are experiencing.
The cause of crohns and UC is not a medical one, but it becomes a necessity
for medical treatment.   I am not a  doctor, but crohns is more like falling
and getting hurt.    the doctor does not know how you got hurt, but he knows
he has to treat the injuries.
I keep hoping for a breakthrough, but the very unscientific and illogical
cause of the illness really is hard to believe for most people.
Good Luck and regards
Gail Michael

I used to suffer from anxiety/depression so I went to my GP. In less
than ten minutes I had a prescription for an anti-depressant. It seemed
to helped a bit, but not much. In six months I had had enough with the
side effects. The withdrawal just about drove me nuts for about two or
three weeks.

I started researching alternatives. Found out on the internet that some
people found B vitamin therapy to work. I started taking two b vitamin
complex stress formula tabs a day, in the morning, with food. Major
difference, but still maybe about 75% where I wanted to be. Months
later, for entirely unrelated reasons, I tried a C vitamin flush (up to
18,000 mgs per day for four days). Within two days my wife noticed the
difference in my moods. I am now clear of any anxiety or depression
symptoms. I take upwards of 3 or 4 - 1000 mgs vitamin C along with the
b vitamins.

Sugar and crap refined carbs will deplete you of these important
nutrients. We evolved to eat foods with smaller amounts of carbs.
Todays fruits and veggies have been bred to be a lot sweeter than they
used to be. When our body metabolizes carbs it has to use up some
vitamins in the process. When the food is less sweet and rich in
vitamins, a lot of vitamins are left over for other needs. When you eat
pure refined carbs with no inherent vitamins, the body has to get
vitamins from somewhere in order to be able to metabolize the carbs.
The body end up getting the needed vitamins from your bodies vitamins
stores and depletes you of those vitamins.

The more of these fake foods and less real foods we have in our diet,
the more depleted of these vitamins we end up being and the more mental
and physical problems we will suffer from. We are talking about a
simple and across the board nutritional deficiency. Malnourishment.

The brain is an organ and it needs the right nutrients in the right
amounts to function properly. When they say you have a chemical
imbalance, they are talking about chemicals that we are supposed to be
getting from our diet. Where else would our bodies get these chemicals
from? What else would cause a chemical imbalance. Food is the chemical
input for our bodies.

We do not get a chemical imbalance because of the lack of a given pill
in our diet.

We get a chemical imbalance because of malnourishment. Getting the
wrong nutrients from manufactured foods or not getting enough of the
right nutrients from real and nutritious foods. Nutrients are the
chemicals that allow us to live and gives us excellent health, mentally
and physically.

TC

kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> The first thing Doctors and the Drug Industry should separate themselves
> from are anti-depressants.     EVERYBODY is in danger of being prescribed an
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Burrill Crohns and colleagues researched these mysterious ailments  in 1932
> or before.
TC - 30 Jan 2006 17:07 GMT
<kureforcro...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> TC,
>
> I am sure there is a lot of merit in nutrition for depression.    But I
> think that applies to a chemical imbalance induced depression.   It  cannot
> solve situational depression, unless lifting the depression makes one more
> capable of putting things in perspective.

How do you know that "situational" depression is completely independent
of chemical imbalance induced depression? I am not certain that
"situational" depression exists.

For years I had a bad situation (employment and finances-wise) that
explained my anxiety/depression. Then I got a great job making great
money working great hours, etc. I no longer had a situational reason
for my problem. That is when I started looking for help and started on
anti-depressants and eventually found the nutritional cure.

> I am glad for you, that nutrition works, but I think too much of Vitamin C,
> may not be too good.

It is water soluble. Any excess is washed out in the urine. There are
no toxicity issues whatsoever. Perfectly 100% safe. Same with the B
vitamins. And I take no more B vitamins than the daily max recommended.

> I would be able to function very well with anti-depressants, but knowing
> what I do about them, the prospect of harming others, makes it impossible
> for me to use them.    So I am left in quite a quandry.    I look for
> answers but there is none to soften the blow of stimulants in causing crohns
> and UC to the vulnerable, so I feel a very depressed uselessness in that
> area.

If I were you, I would start taking the B vitamins and the C and when
you feel up to it start weaning yourself off the pills slowly.

If you suffer from chrohn's, it agrees completely with what I've said
so far. Wheat (specifically gluten) and especially refined whiteflour
has been implicated in crohn's.

see:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0969276818/qid=1138639738/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102
-5402408-8657763?s=books&v=glance&n=283155


Read the reviews.

Your chrohn's and your depression may both be caused by a high carb
diet.

> But everyone knowing this can be a factor in their physical and mental
> problems that have no organic origin may help immeasureably to curb all of
> the problems many are experiencing.

That is absolute nonsense. If there is no organic origin, then what the
hell else could be the origin? Astrology? Karma? Bad Luck? Nonsense.

Read the book. Try a low carb diet and cut out sugars, wheat, corn and
soy completely and see what happens. Start taking the vitamins. I can
almost guaranttee you better health within weeks. You will see the
difference.

> The cause of crohns and UC is not a medical one, but it becomes a necessity
> for medical treatment.   I am not a  doctor, but crohns is more like falling
> and getting hurt.    the doctor does not know how you got hurt, but he knows
> he has to treat the injuries.

More nonsense. Is that what your doctor told you? Your doctor knows
squat about crohns and UC.

Read the book I referenced. You could be crohn's-free in a year from
now.

If a doctor tells you that he does not know the cause of your
condition, wtf gives him the right to treat you? How can he presume to
treat you for something that he fails to understand the cause of?
Pardon my grammar, but you get the point.

And why only treat the injury when you can avoid the injury by treating
the actual cause? Your doctor is a fool working in the dark and you
will pay him to not heal you. Is that what you are aiming for?

> I keep hoping for a breakthrough, but the very unscientific and illogical
> cause of the illness really is hard to believe for most people.
> Good Luck and regards
> Gail Michael

Read the book, There is your breakthrough. It is right in front of you.
And send a copy to your doctor.

Both your depression and the crohn's are most likely directly related
to your diet. What you do with your diet in the next few weeks could
drastically help your situation. Check into that book and try the
vitamins. You have nothing to lose except your medical problems, your
pain and your physical and mental distress.

TC
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 31 Jan 2006 00:02 GMT
TC,
Linas Pauling (I think that is his name) advocated large use of Vitamin C.
He died of Cancer at 90.     Diet has not a thing to do with causing crohns,
it is a matter of concern as after the fact of crohns.  No doctor knows the
cause of crohns.    It is recognized as being unknown.   Again, I am not a
doctor.   but my layman's opinion on the cause of crohns is almost
unbelievable,   it is caused by someone on a stimulant (i.e. marijuana,
cocaine, Xanax, Buspar, Depakote, Flexeril, kava kava, st  lohn wort, etc.
etc. etc) and that stimulant has the power to transmit harm to a person with
a mind/body connection to the person on the stimulant.     And the two (or
more) do not have to be in the same room for the damage to continue, they
can be miles and miles apart.   Only the mind connection is at work.
You say the doctor can't treat   without knowing the cause.    It is done
everyday to millions of people.     The symptoms must be treated, as they
can be very severe from head to toe.  Please dont tell me the meds listed
are not stimulants, from experience I know they are.      The only solution
is to identify the person on the stimulant, and if they do not cease or
transfer to a tranquillizer like Valium or Ativan, which does no harm, then
one must get away from that person totally, and when there is no longer a
mind connection, there will be no further illness.   (sometimes the damage
requires further treatment)      This is odd, I know, unscientific,
illogical, but I swear it is true.   Again problems with diet come after the
fact of crohns.     My theory is hardly open to discussion, unless some real
questions come up.    To say it is impossibke, etc, means nothing.
You have told me your views, and I thank you,  I do not know if your
situation fits into this weird situation, but that is crohns no matter what
the experts say.   I have felt both situational and chemical depressions,
one will lift, while the other needs to be resolved.    Incidentally all
illness do not have to be organic.    Hives, etc.    This is definitely
environmental as Dr. Burrill crohns determined from all his research.
Good luck.
Gail Michael

> <kureforcro...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > TC,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> see:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0969276818/qid=1138639738/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2
/102-5402408-8657763?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

> Read the reviews.
>
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> TC
Just Cocky - 31 Jan 2006 01:06 GMT
>This is odd, I know, unscientific, illogical, but I swear it is true.

Of course it is. By the way, have you seen the Invisible Pink Unicorn
lately?
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 31 Jan 2006 03:42 GMT
No, I haven't seen the Invisible Pink Unicorn.     Please tell me all about
it.      In detail.
Thanks     Gail

> >This is odd, I know, unscientific, illogical, but I swear it is true.
>
> Of course it is. By the way, have you seen the Invisible Pink Unicorn
> lately?
Just Cocky - 31 Jan 2006 04:56 GMT
>> >This is odd, I know, unscientific, illogical, but I swear it is true.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>it.      In detail.
>Thanks     Gail

The IPU is the particle that mediates your mind connection, didn't you
know?
TC - 31 Jan 2006 14:49 GMT
> TC,
> Linas Pauling (I think that is his name) advocated large use of Vitamin C.
> He died of Cancer at 90.     Diet has not a thing to do with causing crohns,
> it is a matter of concern as after the fact of crohns.  No doctor knows the
> cause of crohns.    It is recognized as being unknown.

Read the book I referenced for you. At least read the reviews.

Diet has everything to do with crohn's. For christs sake, it's your
health. If you are so damned closed minded about it and so willing to
leave it all in the hands of a doctor to medicate the hell out of you
and eventually cut out parts of your GI tract, then the hell with you.
Suffer.

The answer is in your diey and in that book. If you want to get better,
you had better get your heand out of your and your doctors a.s and read
the damned book.

Again, I am not a
> doctor.   but my layman's opinion on the cause of crohns is almost
> unbelievable,   it is caused by someone on a stimulant (i.e. marijuana,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> more) do not have to be in the same room for the damage to continue, they
> can be miles and miles apart.   Only the mind connection is at work.

That is incredible bullshit and you know it. Read the damned book.

> You say the doctor can't treat   without knowing the cause.    It is done
> everyday to millions of people.     The symptoms must be treated, as they
> can be very severe from head to toe.

Treating the symptoms is the best way medical people can milk the
system for lots of income. If you want to be part of the great masses
being screwed over, go for it. It is your health.

Treating the symptoms is complete and utter stupidity from a patients
point of view. Read the damned book and treat the cause.

> Please dont tell me the meds listed
> are not stimulants, from experience I know they are.      The only solution
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mind connection, there will be no further illness.   (sometimes the damage
> requires further treatment)

I don't care if they are stimulants. They are irrelvant to the
condition of crohn's.

> This is odd, I know, unscientific,
> illogical, but I swear it is true.

You are an idiot and deserve the pain you are bringing on yourself.

>   Again problems with diet come after the
> fact of crohns.

Read the damned book. It will save your life.

>     My theory is hardly open to discussion, unless some real
> questions come up.    To say it is impossibke, etc, means nothing.

Your theory is crap.

> You have told me your views, and I thank you,  I do not know if your
> situation fits into this weird situation, but that is crohns no matter what
> the experts say.

Crohn's is related to wheat and gluten intake. Nothing else. You can be
free of crohn's within less than a year.

> I have felt both situational and chemical depressions,
> one will lift, while the other needs to be resolved.    Incidentally all
> illness do not have to be organic.    Hives, etc.    This is definitely
> environmental as Dr. Burrill crohns determined from all his research.
> Good luck.
> Gail Michael

Sounds to me like you have personal attitude problems. Are you so
damned unique that the mundane realities of physical life trenscends
your blessedness? What affects the masses is not applicable to your
holy highness? Are you the exception to the rule? Everyone elses
problems are organic but yours transcends the real world?

Hey, jackass. Your crohn's is like everyone elses, it is cause by wheat
gluten. Read the damned book. And your depression will be at the very
least minimized by eating a low carb diet and supplementing with
vitamin B complex and vitamin C.

But you are above all this stuff aren't you? You are the exception to
the rule. You are the one person that can eat crap day in and day out
for a lifetime and the resulting medical problems just appear out of
the blue with no organic cause. One plus one equals three in your
universe.

If you are that frikkin' obtuse, then go suffer alone. Leave us out of
it.

TC
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 31 Jan 2006 16:13 GMT
Whew, what a post.   Will not try to answer everything as the day would be
shot.    I am no exception to crohns, but I do control it, by diet (after
the fact of crohns) by not eating too much and foods that will not lay like
concrete in the  stomach.     Icould be rid of crohns, but unfortunately, I
like the person that is on the stimulant, and my thoughts are mostly there.
So I have to KNOW what to do.   I do not depend on the doctor, as he knows
less than I.
I see him once in three months for Ativan and Vicodin, to control some of
the illness and occasional pain.   If not for that, I would be in dire
straits with the illness.    I do not need to read  any books on the
subject, or what the CCFA says,  or any of the current and upcoming
treatments.     I know with 100% certainty I am correct, thank G-d no
surgery, prednisone, remicade etc. etc. etc. so far.     I would like for
everyone to know what I know and think like I do.     Crohns and UC would
not be the problem it is, for the most part.    Sad of all, are the children
with Inflammantory Bowel Disease, who can be well in a day, because usually
it is their mother on an anti-depressant or something.     If only the ones
that have benefitted would say it openly, the theory might be accepted where
it is not.
Thank you for your good wishes and same to you.     If you look hard enough,
you will see it with the children, drug addicts that congregate together,
etc.
Other than speaking IRL, I cannot say muich more, as writing is taxing also.
Regards      And most important of all, this is not of organic origin, just
like the hives, breaking a leg etc. are not.
Gail
I only need one professional for a breakthrough, but no one will risk their
reputation.

> > TC,
> > Linas Pauling (I think that is his name) advocated large use of Vitamin C.
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
>
> TC
Just Cocky - 31 Jan 2006 16:59 GMT
>I do not need to read  any books on the subject, or what the CCFA says,
>or any of the current and upcoming treatments.

You are a retard. Seriously!
TC - 31 Jan 2006 17:04 GMT
> >I do not need to read  any books on the subject, or what the CCFA says,
> >or any of the current and upcoming treatments.
>
> You are a retard. Seriously!

I actually have to agree with you.

You can lead a horse to water.....

TC
Just Cocky - 30 Jan 2006 17:15 GMT
>I would be able to function very well with anti-depressants, but knowing
>what I do about them, the prospect of harming others, makes it impossible
>for me to use them.    So I am left in quite a quandry.    I look for
>answers but there is none to soften the blow of stimulants in causing crohns
>and UC to the vulnerable, so I feel a very depressed uselessness in that
>area.

Do you supplement with fish oil?
 
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