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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / January 2006Flax oil, kefir, yogurt producing no immune system benefits
Hi. I am age 51. For the past 15 months every morning I've been blending high lignan flax seed oil with either yogurt or kefir as part of my breakfast. And I've been keeping my daily intake of omega-6 fat approx equal to my omega-3 fats intake. And I avoid sugar except for what is found in about 6 different whole fruits every day. And I have 2 cups of green tea every day, along with a cup of cocoa and 2 cups of rooibos. And every day I also take 400 mg natural E-complex vitamin, 50 mg selenium, 1000 mg vitamin ester-C, 100 mg CoQ10, 400 mg alpha-lipoic acid, 400 mg quercetin, 100 mg MSM, plus individual garlic, cranberry, and grapeseed extract pills. Not to mention the healthy meals that I eat, that's a lot of daily nutrients. I'm hoping that my continued use of them will help to prevent me from some day getting cancer. However, that's not a realistic expectation as last May they could not even prevent me from getting a persistent cold/flu following an airline trip. Although I still continue to take all of the above stuff, it certainly has been quite a disappointment so far. >Not to mention the healthy meals that I eat, that's a lot of daily >nutrients. I'm hoping that my continued use of them will help to prevent me >from some day getting cancer. However, that's not a realistic expectation as >last May they could not even prevent me from getting a persistent cold/flu >following an airline trip. Although I still continue to take all of the >above stuff, it certainly has been quite a disappointment so far. What makes you think that you could prevent yourself from getting infected with a virus? Reducing the probabiliy of happening, yes. Preventing, no! >>Not to mention the healthy meals that I eat, that's a lot of daily >>nutrients. I'm hoping that my continued use of them will help to prevent [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > infected with a virus? Reducing the probabiliy of happening, yes. > Preventing, no! .My own sickness last May lasted for about as long as what would be typical for me before I got with the previously described nutritional program of preventive maintenance. Typically I get a cold/flu about once a year that lasts about 10 days. Well, that was a lot of special foods and medications to be taking religiously for so long not to produce any noticably improved results for me. There was no reduction in the probability of infection for me, and also no reduction in the duration of my sickness either. Forgot to mention bfore that my gal Nancy is also with the same nutritional program. I've known her for 14 years and over that span of time she was sick enough as to be noticably sick by other people only about 3 times. In early July of last year a few members of her family got colds/flus (whatever) when she was vacationing for 3 days with them. She ended up getting a horrible doozy of a cold/flu that took her nearly a month to shake off, despite the fact she is a software consultant who "telecommutes" from her office at home. She rarely has to appear at her employer's or client's locations so she was well positioned to get adequate rest while under minimal work stress. Some reduction in sickness probability, don't you think? >>>Not to mention the healthy meals that I eat, that's a lot of daily >>>nutrients. I'm hoping that my continued use of them will help to prevent [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >for me before I got with the previously described nutritional program of >preventive maintenance. That program of yours doesn't appear particularly targeted at preventing the flu, if that's what your are shooting for. >Typically I get a cold/flu about once a year that >lasts about 10 days. That's bad. You might be deficient in Zinc. Or you have a chronic inflammation problem that is draining your immune system. Do you know what your C-reactive protein levels are, when not sick? Have you had the chance to look at Life Extension Foundation's protocol? http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-051.shtml Out of curiousity I got various blood and urine tests done in September via www.directlaboratoryservices.com when I was feeling great. That's also the time of year when I'm in the best cardiovascular shape because I'm outdoors more often. I have a copy of the blood test report. hs-CRP <0.50 mg/l homocysteine 7.54 mcmol/l Zinc wasn't analyzed. I'm quite certain that it wasn't an available test. While I was sick during May I began taking zinc lozenges for the first time, letting a half-tab dissolve in my mouth about every 4 hours. After I recovered I stopped taking them. Just took a look at the LE protocol. Forgot to mention that I also take a tablespoon of whey protein isolate twice per day just before I have cereal or fruit. I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. >I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're >not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. At your age, hormone levels are below optimal for sure (testing required, though). That's why it might make sense to supplement. A more or less comprehensive list of important markers is found in this book: The Life Extension Revolution : The New Science of Growing Older Without Aging (Hardcover) by Philip Lee, M.D. Miller, Monica Reinagel http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553803530 >>I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're >>not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553803530 Are you saying that my hormone levels are below optimal when compared to healthy males my age or are you implying that a "normally" healthy male of my age does not have optimal hormone levels (compared to...)? >>>I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're >>>not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >healthy males my age or are you implying that a "normally" healthy male of >my age does not have optimal hormone levels (compared to...)? The later, under which the life extension paradigm rests. Compared to a healthy 25 y.o. (or so). What is "normal" for your age (and going forward) is to dwindle and die. >>>>I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're >>>>not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > a healthy 25 y.o. (or so). What is "normal" for your age (and going > forward) is to dwindle and die. Restoring hormone levels to normal levels for younger ages is certainly a radical method of wellness. I only just heard about this idea for the first time a few months ago. I understand that it can get very pricey. Are you actually doing this already, or are you just throwing an idea out there FWIW? >>>>>I see that the LE protocol includes taking hormones. No, they're >>>>>not for me. Have to draw the line somewhere. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >actually doing this already, or are you just throwing an idea out there >FWIW? Fortunately, I'm not yet old enough to do it. But there are other things, besides hormonal supplementation, that can be done. For 20 bucks, you can buy the book and see for yourself. :-) By the way, I have no financial interest on that book . I was just happy to buy it and read it. It contains a lot of interesting information. Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:37:51 GMT in article <jDGAf.785$1n4.672@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >>>Not to mention the healthy meals that I eat, that's a lot of daily >>>nutrients. I'm hoping that my continued use of them will help to prevent [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >results for me. There was no reduction in the probability of infection for >me, and also no reduction in the duration of my sickness either. You don't seem to be doing terribly well. I cannot remember when I last had cold or flu, must have been years ago. And last time i had cold or flu which lasted 10 days or more was in 1988. Perhaps you do need to take more selenium, zinc, vitamin C, astragalus, propolis, garlic, etc., etc. ... ;-).  SignatureMatti Narkia > You don't seem to be doing terribly well. I cannot remember when I last > had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > selenium, zinc, vitamin C, astragalus, propolis, garlic, etc., etc. ... > ;-). Well, I can't see taking larger quantities of the routine pills that I already take, but perhaps I could take those special extracts such as astragalus, echinacea, etc. the day before I get on a plane, and then continue taking them for a few more days. But if those timely special extracts do the trick, then what good are all my regular routinely taken pills? Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:23:56 GMT in article <MRiBf.1454$1n4.872@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> You don't seem to be doing terribly well. I cannot remember when I last >> had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >extracts do the trick, then what good are all my regular routinely taken >pills? Echinaceae won't do much good for you, in trials it has been found almost useless. But do as you please, if you want to continue suffering from colds lasting 10 days or more, it's your life. I just don't understand why you bother to ask any questions here? References: Schwarz E, Parlesak A, Henneicke-von Zepelin HH, Bode JC, Bode C. Effect of oral administration of freshly pressed juice of Echinacea purpurea on the number of various subpopulations of B- and T-lymphocytes in healthy volunteers: results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled cross-over study. Phytomedicine. 2005 Sep;12(9):625-31. PMID: 16194048 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16194048> "... CONCLUSION: Oral administration of EPP for 1 and 2 weeks has only minor effects on two out of 12 lymphocyte subpopulations determined in the study. The small differences observed in the number of CD8 + -T lymphocytes and natural killer cells are only of questionable physiological relevance." Turner RB, Bauer R, Woelkart K, Hulsey TC, Gangemi JD. An evaluation of Echinacea angustifolia in experimental rhinovirus infections. N Engl J Med. 2005 Jul 28;353(4):341-8. PMID: 16049208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16049208> <http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/353/4/341> "... CONCLUSIONS: The results of this study indicate that extracts of E. angustifolia root, either alone or in combination, do not have clinically significant effects on infection with a rhinovirus or on the clinical illness that results from it." SignatureMatti Narkia Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:23:56 GMT in article <MRiBf.1454$1n4.872@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> You don't seem to be doing terribly well. I cannot remember when I last >> had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >extracts do the trick, then what good are all my regular routinely taken >pills? Are you a clairvoyant? Can you tell in advance, when you are going to get infection? Of course not, but even if you did, the things you take may need time to "do the trick". And suppose you have a Th1/Th2 imbalance with Th2 dominance, which is fairly common. To avoid problems you would then perhaps need to take something continuously to restore and retain the balance. Roughly speaking the Th1 cells are responsible for the cell mediated immunity and the Th2 cells for humoral immunity. If you have Th2 dominance, you have problems with cell mediated immunity. The easiest way to determine the status of your cell mediated immunity is to take the delayed hypersensitivity test, see for example Delayed-type Hypersensitivity Test (DTH): Information From Answers.com <http://www.answers.com/topic/delayed-type-hypersensitivity-test-dth> Delayed hypersensitivity skin test <http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/delayed-hypersensitivity-skin-test> <http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/delayed_hypersensitivity_skin_test.jsp> SignatureMatti Narkia Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:46:31 +0200 in article <fsret11k1pong3rr57b4am81a53vilh9g9@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:23:56 GMT in article ><MRiBf.1454$1n4.872@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] ><http://health.enotes.com/medicine-encyclopedia/delayed-hypersensitivity-skin-test> ><http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/delayed_hypersensitivity_skin_test.jsp> Some additional links: Immune Defense against Microbial Pathogens <http://textbookofbacteriology.net/immune.html> "Cell-mediated immunity (CMI) is the type of immunity that is mediated by specific subpopulations of T-lymphocytes called effector T cells. In non immune animals precursor T cells (pT cells) exist as "resting T cells". They bear receptors for specific antigens. Stimulation with Ag results in their activation. The cells enlarge, enter into a mitotic cycle, reproduce and develop into effector T cells whose activities are responsible for this type of immunity. They also develop into clones of identical reactive T cells called memory T cells. The biological activities of the antibody-mediated and cell- mediated immune responses are different and vary from one type of infection to another. The AMI response involves interaction of B lymphocytes with antigen and their differentiation into antibody- secreting plasma cells. The secreted antibody binds to the antigen and in some way leads to its neutralization or elimination from the body. The CMI response involves several subpopulations of T lymphocytes that recognize antigens on the surfaces of cells. TH cells respond to antigen with the production of lymphokines. The distinction between TH1 and TH2 is based on their lymphokine profiles. TH2 cells have previously been referred to as T helper cells because they provide lymphokines (e.g. IL-2 and IL-4) which activate T cells and B cells at the start of the immune response. TH1 cells were formerly known as delayed type hypersensitivity cells (TDTH) because of their role in this allergic process. TC cells or cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTLs) are able to kill cells that are showing a new or foreign antigen on their surface (as virus-infected cells, or tumor cells, or transplanted tissue cells)." eMedicine - Hypersensitivity Reactions, Immediate : Article by Miriam K Anand, MD <http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1101.htm> "Pathophysiology: Immediate hypersensitivity reactions are mediated by IgE, but T and B cells play important roles in the development of these antibodies. CD4 cells or helper T (TH) cells have been divided into 2 broad classes based on the cytokines they produce. TH1 cells produce interferon gamma, interleukin (IL)2, and tumor necrosis factor-beta and promote a cell-mediated immune response (eg, delayed hypersensitivity reaction). TH2 cells, on the other hand, produce IL-4 and IL-13, which then act on B cells to promote the production of antigen-specific IgE. Therefore, TH2 cells play an important role in the development of immediate hypersensitivity reactions, and patients who are atopic are thought to have a higher TH2-to-TH1 cell ratio. Interestingly, the cytokines produced by TH1 cells (specifically interferon gamma) seem to diminish the production of TH2 cells. " Delayed Type Hypersensitivity <http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num1/reviews/black.html> Cell-Mediated Immunity <http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/Allostatic/notebook/cellimmunity.html> SignatureMatti Narkia Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:59:33 +0200 in article <nuset1tpq7v6mjv5l4rnoc0h8i5t3crpe1@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:46:31 +0200 in article ><fsret11k1pong3rr57b4am81a53vilh9g9@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >Immune Defense against Microbial Pathogens ><http://textbookofbacteriology.net/immune.html> [snip] >eMedicine - Hypersensitivity Reactions, Immediate : Article by Miriam K >Anand, MD ><http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1101.htm> [snip] >Delayed Type Hypersensitivity ><http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num1/reviews/black.html> > >Cell-Mediated Immunity ><http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/Allostatic/notebook/cellimmunity.html> Anergy means a state of immune unresponsiveness: Anergy definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms <http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10094> Anergy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anergy> This thread was originally also about immunity and cancer. In some cancers cell mediated immunity is compromised and patients have anergy: Hadden JW. The immunopharmacology of head and neck cancer: an update. Int J Immunopharmacol. 1997 Nov-Dec;19(11-12):629-44. Review. PMID: 9669203 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9 669203&dopt=Abstract> "Patients with head and neck squamous cell cancer have cell-mediated immune defects and anergy, which progress with disease. T- lymphocytopenia and dysfunction, monocyte dysfunction, prostaglandins, antigen-antibody complexes, serum and cell suppressive factors, radiation therapy and poor nutrition with zinc deficiency all contribute. Nevertheless, cell-mediated immunoreactivity to tumor is manifest in the majority of the patient's blood and regional nodes, and in the tumor itself by tumor-infiltrating lymphocytes. Lymphocytes from these sources cloned in the presence of interleukin-2 +/- tumor extracts show relatively specific cytotoxicity against squamous cell cancer. Humoral immunity is intact, and increased IgA and IgE levels and antibodies reactive to tumor antigens are common. Tumor-associated antigens detected in serum and tumor include carcinoembryonic antigen, tumor polypeptide antigen, squamous cell cancer antigens, tumor antigen-4 and various mucin antigens. The mucin antigens, in particular, can elicit T-cell responses. Humoral reactivity to such antigens is manifest in circulating immune complexes and immunoglobulin coating of tumor surfaces. Immunotherapeutic efforts in head and neck squamous cell cancer should logically employ T- cell adjuvants, contrasuppression and immunorestoration. Non- specific stimulation with bacille Calmette-Guerin (BCG), levamisole and other agents has not been successful. Encouraging results have been observed in limited trials with indomethacin and plasmapheresis. Early trials with local administration of low dosages of interferon-alpha, natural interleukin-2 and a natural interleukin mixture have produced partial and complete regressions with no toxicity and with intense leukocyte infiltration indicating cellular immunity. Efforts are needed to define the mechanisms and the antigens involved in these reactions. On the contrary, treatments with high dosages of recombinant interferon-alpha and interleukin-2 have yielded few responses and considerable toxicity. Combination strategies are discussed which may improve upon these initial immunotherapeutic effects of these low dose trials." Selenium may correct cell-mediated immunity in some cancers: Kiremidjian-Schumacher L, Roy M. Effect of selenium on the immunocompetence of patients with head and neck cancer and on adoptive immunotherapy of early and established lesions. Biofactors. 2001;14(1-4):161-8. Review. PMID: 11568453 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1568453&dopt=Abstract> "Supplementation with 200 microg/day of sodium selenite during therapy for squamous cell carcinoma (SQCC) of the head and neck, e.g., surgery, radiation, or surgery and radiation, resulted in a significantly enhanced cell-mediated immune responsiveness. The enhanced responsiveness was evident during therapy and following conclusion of therapy. In contrast, patients in the placebo arm of the study showed a decline in immune responsiveness during therapy. The results from studies on mice inoculated with SQCC cells expressing the receptor for interleukin-2 (IL-2) and supplemented with Se (2.00 ppm) indicated that Se significantly retards the clinical appearance of tumors; peritumoral injections of 2,000 IU of IL-2 resulted in 50% reduction in the size of established tumors and 72% of early tumors. The combined data suggested that local immunotherapy with IL-2 in hosts supplemented with Se may represent an effective modality of treatment for the prevention of recurrences at the site of conventionally treated primary tumors." Cimetidine has also been found to reverse anergy in cancer patients: Richtsmeier WJ, Eisele D. In vivo anergy reversal with cimetidine in patients with cancer. Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg. 1986 Oct;112(10):1074-7. PMID: 3755977 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3 755977&dopt=Abstract> About nutrients with may help to fight infection: Field CJ, Johnson IR, Schley PD. Nutrients and their role in host resistance to infection. J Leukoc Biol. 2002 Jan;71(1):16-32. Review. PMID: 11781377 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1781377&dopt=Abstract> SignatureMatti Narkia Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:28:46 +0200 in article <gbuet19t21ehfnu2j245bcos7g2ead1fkq@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >About nutrients with may help to fight infection: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >PMID: 11781377 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1781377&dopt=Abstract> Some related references: Davidson A. The pharmacological effects of novel nutrients on the immune system. Nurs Times. 2004 May 4-10;100(18):62-3. Review. PMID: 15151012 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15151012> Grimble RF. Nutritional modulation of immune function. Proc Nutr Soc. 2001 Aug;60(3):389-97. Review. PMID: 11681814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=11681814> <http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/2001/00000060/00000003/art00011?t oken=00461430096e6b3427656c3c6a333f25663541333c4a2f24386a6f3b3a466676284673> (the full text is free) Broome CS, McArdle F, Kyle JA, Andrews F, Lowe NM, Hart CA, Arthur JR, Jackson MJ. An increase in selenium intake improves immune function and poliovirus handling in adults with marginal selenium status. Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Jul;80(1):154-62. PMID: 15213043 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/1/154> Lesourd BM. Nutrition and immunity in the elderly: modification of immune responses with nutritional treatments. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Aug;66(2):478S-484S. Review. PMID: 9250135 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/2/478S> <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/2/478S> (fulll text PDF-file) Gill HS, Rutherfurd KJ, Cross ML, Gopal PK. Enhancement of immunity in the elderly by dietary supplementation with the probiotic Bifidobacterium lactis HN019. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Dec;74(6):833-9. PMID: 11722966 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/833> SignatureMatti Narkia > Field CJ, Johnson IR, Schley PD. > Nutrients and their role in host resistance to infection. > J Leukoc Biol. 2002 Jan;71(1):16-32. Review. > PMID: 11781377 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1781377&dopt=Abstract> "Almost all nutrients in the diet play a crucial role in maintaining an "optimal" immune response, such that deficient and excessive intakes can have negative consequences on immune status and susceptibility to a variety of pathogens." Precisely!!! This was precisely the point that I was making before. Almost anything will effect the immune system, but you are talking about micro-managing it. "Iron and vitamin A deficiencies and protein-energy malnutrition are highly prevalent worldwide and are important to the public health in terms of immunocompetence." In regards to nutrients, Vitamin A is on top of the list. In America, men rarely suffer from a deficiency of either protein or iron. Since men in America usually eat meals that center around meat. "There are also nutrients (i.e., glutamine, arginine, fatty acids, vitamin E) that provide additional benefits to immunocompromised persons or patients who suffer from various infections." Yeah, but ONLY if you are deficient. If you take supplements, you are likely to be getting in excess of 400 IUs of Vitamin E. Also, the regular consumption of cold water fatty fish as part of a healthy diet will cover you here. "The remarkable advances in immunology of recent decades have provided insights into the mechanisms responsible for the effects of various nutrients in the diet on specific functions in immune cells. In this review, we will present evidence and proposed mechanisms for the importance of a small group of nutrients that have been demonstrated to affect host resistance to infection will be presented." This is what I referred to as the 'Biggies.' :) "An inadequate status of some of these nutrients occurs in many populations in the world (i.e., vitamin A, iron, and zinc) where infectious disease is a major health concern." In America, for men the biggies are Vitamin A and Zinc, as I previously stated. Men are rarely deficient in iron. "We will also review nutrients that may specifically modulate host defense to infectious pathogens (long-chain polyunsaturated n-3 fatty acids, vitamin E, vitamin C, selenium, and nucleotides)." There you go. All the other non-sense, only 'modulate host defense to infectious pathogens' (ie, play a minor role assuming that you are not deficient in them). If you are deficient in these, then your diet and or supplement program is NOT healthy. A healthy diet assumes adequate amounts of Vitamin C, E, and Omega-3 EFAs. American wheat is NOT deficient in selenium. Hence, supplementation of selenium is NOT required in America assuming that you eat whole wheat bread. Also, notice how compact and to the point my previously proclamations were. No need to beat around the bush with citing a 1,000 research studies. I know my material. :) -- http://naturalhealthperspective.com Now with a new cleaner look. :) Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:46:21 GMT in article <xxmAf.341$1n4.154@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >Hi. I am age 51. For the past 15 months every morning I've been blending >high lignan flax seed oil with either yogurt or kefir as part of my [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >following an airline trip. Although I still continue to take all of the >above stuff, it certainly has been quite a disappointment so far. You are raising two different and very large issues here: prevention of cancer and optimizing immune defence. You surely understand that it's only possible to scratch the surface of these topics here. There is some overlap in these topics, but the prevention of cancer it's not primarly an immune system issue. To prevent cancer you need first to have healthy life style: no smoking, no excessive alcohol, avoiding carcinogenic substances, controlling the weight, getting enough exercise, healthy diet etc.. Some of the supplements and food items you are taking may help (although you don't want to take 50 mg of selenium/d, you wouldn't live very long ;-)), but you may want to add for example broccoli and curcumin (from turmeric) just to to mention a couple more. Immune system cannot detect all cancers well enough and some cancers can make immune system ineffective. Although it's important to try to keep your immune system in good condition, there are many other ways to fight cancer. By avoiding carcinogens and using antioxidants you may be able to reduce the risk of cancer initiation phase. And by using natural cancer fighters, which cause apoptosis of cancer cells, prevent tumor angiogenesis etc., you may be able to reduce cancer growth rate and inhibit its promotion. An immune system, which cannot stop cancer, may still be able to fight off viral and bacterial infections. Many things can go wrong with immune system. One of the currently popular hypotheses is that imbalance between type 1 and type 2 T helper cells (Th1/Th2 imbalance) may play a role in many diseases. Often the problem is the dominance of Th2 cells. Some lactic acid bacteria, some herbs such as astragalus and propolis, and some vitamins and minerals and trace elements (zinc for example) may help to correct this imbalance. As for influenza and common cold, black elderberry extract such as Sambucol may help. References: Kidd P. Th1/Th2 balance: the hypothesis, its limitations, and implications for health and disease. Altern Med Rev. 2003 Aug;8(3):223-46. Review. PMID: 12946237 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/8/3/223.pdf> CND: Balance the Th1/Th2 Immune System <http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diagnosis/cheneyis.html> Veckman V, Miettinen M, Matikainen S, Lande R, Giacomini E, Coccia EM, Julkunen I. Lactobacilli and streptococci induce inflammatory chemokine production in human macrophages that stimulates Th1 cell chemotaxis. J Leukoc Biol. 2003 Sep;74(3):395-402. PMID: 12949243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/3/395> Sudo N, Yu XN, Aiba Y, Oyama N, Sonoda J, Koga Y, Kubo C. An oral introduction of intestinal bacteria prevents the development of a long-term Th2-skewed immunological memory induced by neonatal antibiotic treatment in mice. Clin Exp Allergy. 2002 Jul;32(7):1112-6. PMID: 12100062 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=12100062> <http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2222.2002.01430.x> Gill HS, Guarner F. Probiotics and human health: a clinical perspective. Postgrad Med J. 2004 Sep;80(947):516-26. Review. PMID: 15356352 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/80/947/516> Isolauri E, Sutas Y, Kankaanpaa P, Arvilommi H, Salminen S. Probiotics: effects on immunity. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Feb;73(2 Suppl):444S-450S. Review. PMID: 11157355 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/444S> Matsuzaki T, Chin J. Modulating immune responses with probiotic bacteria. Immunol Cell Biol. 2000 Feb;78(1):67-73. 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PMID: 9651052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9651052> Harish Z, Rubinstein A, Golodner M, Elmaliah M, Mizrachi Y. Suppression of HIV-1 replication by propolis and its immunoregulatory effect. Drugs Exp Clin Res. 1997;23(2):89-96. PMID: 9309384 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9309384> -Matti Narkia Mon, 23 Jan 2006 03:54:31 +0200 in article <tl98t15u4d525u9ckgfsvk438o8r6psh7k@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:46:21 GMT in article ><xxmAf.341$1n4.154@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 164 lines] >PMID: 11157346 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ><http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/386S> And here a recent study about Lactobacillus reuteri: Tubelius P, Stan V, Zachrisson A. Increasing work-place healthiness with the probiotic Lactobacillus reuteri: A randomised, double-blind placebo-controlled study. Environ Health. 2005 Nov 7;4(1):25 [Epub ahead of print] PMID: 16274475 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16274475> <http://www.ehjournal.net/content/pdf/1476-069x-4-25.pdf> Comments: Probiotic May Reduce Sick Days From Work CME Medscape Medical News, 2005 November 14. <http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516801> Less sick leave with Reuteri Biogaia : BioGaia <http://www.biogaia.se/?id=27862> -Matti Narkia That's a lot of info. Thanks. Your numerous refs should keep me busy for a while. I'm in good enough shape that people have told me that I look athletic. Forgot to mention that I also get a daily tomato soup with my supper. Put lots of dried herbs in it (basil, oregano, parsley) and then blend in a clove of crushed raw garlic into my mug just before I drink it. I put curry (containing turmeric) on my skinless bonelees chicken fillets. The only alcohol I drink is 5 oz. of red wine with supper. Correction: I get 50 mcg not mg of supplementl selenium per day. The RDA for selenium is 55 mcg or 75 mcg for a man my age, depending on the info source. So 50 mcg per day of supplementation is not a terribly excessive daily dose. I've read that extracts such as elderberry, echinacea, astragalus, saw palmetto, licorice root extract, cat's claw bark, reishi mushroom, yew, and even ginger stoke the immune system. However AFAIK none of them are recommended for continuous daily use. Their effects on the immune system are drug-like and could possibly weaken the immune system if taken over extended periods of time. Thus I don't regard such medications as supplements that should be taken routinely. So I get a garlic pill in the morning and crushed raw garlic in the evening. Even garlic is claimed to stoke the immune system. I don't think it's a good idea to be taking too many drug-like foods/supplements such as garlic and the alpha-linolenic acid conjugated casein that I described to Mr-Natural-Health in this thread. That's why I get a wide variety of foods containing antioxidant flavonoids (including brocolli) in my diet, and in addition take a wide variety of antioxidant supplements. Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:14:36 GMT in article <g02Bf.1203$1n4.100@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >That's a lot of info. Thanks. Your numerous refs should keep me busy for a >while. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I put curry (containing turmeric) on my skinless bonelees chicken fillets. That may not be enough. I would suggest curcumin supplements, >The only alcohol I drink is 5 oz. of red wine with supper. > >Correction: I get 50 mcg not mg of supplementl selenium per day. The RDA for >selenium is 55 mcg or 75 mcg for a man my age, depending on the info source. >So 50 mcg per day of supplementation is not a terribly excessive daily dose. 50 µg is a rather low dose. For cancer prevention I would suggest at least 200-400 µg/d. >I've read that extracts such as elderberry, echinacea, astragalus, saw >palmetto, licorice root extract, cat's claw bark, reishi mushroom, yew, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >periods of time. Thus I don't regard such medications as supplements that >should be taken routinely. Regardless of what your sources say, most of these can be consumed in moderate doses daily with no problmes whatsoever. But you may not need all of these. Astragalus and/or propolis may be all you need. Ginger will reduce inflammation by inhibiting COX-2 and 5-LOX enzymes, so its daily use is also recommended. For aging people daily use of adaptogens and stress hormone reducing herbs such as ginseng and ginkgo biloba are probably also useful. >So I get a garlic pill in the morning and crushed raw garlic in the evening. Garlic is good, especially raw garlic, and so are onions. I often mix finely cut raw onion and garlic with crushed small fish such as surdines, herring and mackerel. Some extra virgin olive oil and/or tomato puree or ketchup will complete the healthy meal. -Matti Narkia Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:29:10 +0200 in article <1il9t15ecjvk591qk0sjhbt24lri080vi7@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >50 µg is a rather low dose. For cancer prevention I would suggest at >least 200-400 µg/d. And for cancer prevention most of this selenium should be sodium selenate and the rest of it perhaps Se-methyl-selenocysteine. -Matti Narkia > Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:29:10 +0200 in article > <1il9t15ecjvk591qk0sjhbt24lri080vi7@4ax.com> Matti Narkia [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And for cancer prevention most of this selenium should be sodium > selenate and the rest of it perhaps Se-methyl-selenocysteine. I've read that nonchelated minerals such as sodium selenate have poor intestinal absorption, and that the only reason why they're available in various multisupplements is because they're cheaper to produce and thus help to keep the consumer's price attractively low. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:13:50 GMT in article <ibfBf.5225$Hd4.587@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:29:10 +0200 in article >> <1il9t15ecjvk591qk0sjhbt24lri080vi7@4ax.com> Matti Narkia [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >various multisupplements is because they're cheaper to produce and thus help >to keep the consumer's price attractively low. Well, they are also safer, they don't accumulate into our bodies to the same extent as organic compounds. And they may have more direct toxicity towards cancer cells. I've used, from my doctor's prescription, 800-1000 µg of sodium selenate/d for 18 years ;-). SignatureMatti Narkia > I've used, from my doctor's prescription, 800-1000 µg of > sodium selenate/d for 18 years ;-). Mat, that's a daily dose, and continuously; not on one week, off one week? Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:26:44 GMT in article <oUiBf.1455$1n4.225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> I've used, from my doctor's prescription, 800-1000 µg of >> sodium selenate/d for 18 years ;-). > >Mat, that's a daily dose, and continuously; not on one week, off one week? Yes, I've been taken 800-1000 µg selenium as sodium selenate continuously daily for 18 years without any adverse effects whatsoever. That's not very surprising, because the NOAEL of selenium also in USA is 800 µg/d, which already includes a certain safety margin. So no one has ever had been found to have any adverse effects from continuous daily doses of 800 µg selenium or less. SignatureMatti Narkia > Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:26:44 GMT in article > <oUiBf.1455$1n4.225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > to have any adverse effects from continuous daily doses of 800 µg selenium > or less. With all that selenium, was wondering how you are able to avoid a mineral imbalance. Matti, are you also taking extra high doses of magnesium, chromium and zinc supplements to compensate for the high selenium intake? And extra high doses of E too? (Be sure to read the bottom paragraph.) The following 7 paragraphs are excerpts from : http://www.acu-cell.com/ses.html Copyright © 2000-2005 Ronald Roth Selenium supplementation is an effective way to reduce excessive mercury levels. I have monitored on a number of occasions a sharp drop in selenium levels when dental amalgams were removed, and where subsequently Se slowly returned to previous levels again over a three to four week time period. When people have no heavy or toxic metal concentrations in their body (that bind to selenium), most of the time there are no negative symptoms when taking about 200mcg per day of selenium, however when selenium is very low when first supplemented (perhaps due to toxic / heavy metal storage), and larger amounts are taken, adverse effects are very commonly experienced the first few weeks due to the heavy or toxic metals being eliminated by the body. In that case, I always urge my patients to slowly increase their selenium dose from as low as 25mcg per day (or even lower), up to eventually the full dose, which generally is around 100mcg or sometimes higher, depending on circumstances. Organic forms of selenium (selenium yeast and selenomethionine, or selenocysteine) are always preferable to inorganic forms such as sodium selenite because of their better absorption and lower toxicity, even when ingested at much high amounts. In contrast, due to its free-radical promoting oxidative nature, inorganic selenium is mutagenic and has caused cataracts at high doses in animal studies, while organic selenium is less toxic, and does not have mutagenic or oxidizing activity. Although selenium and Vitamin E work together synergistically in that they carry out antioxidant and immunostimulating functions, they compete with each other on a biochemical level, where increasing the one requires an increase of the other, otherwise ratio problems occur. The same effect happens to Vitamin E when higher amounts of Vitamin C are supplemented, despite both being antioxidants. Although there are reports that Vitamin C inhibits selenium absorption by inactivating it in the stomach or small intestine, this is not supported by my own findings or those of most other researchers. In fact, Vitamin C supports selenium uptake by preventing the inhibitory action of zinc on selenium (making Vitamin C synergistic to selenium instead), particularly when organic forms are used. On a similar note, while sulfur and molybdenum compete for uptake in plants, supplementing either one in humans helps uptake of the other by inhibiting copper, which is an antagonist to sulfur and molybdenum, so for practical purposes (and confirmed in thousands of clinical applications), they work as synergists with one another. There is an identical relationship between vanadium and selenium against chromium, resulting in the same synergism. Some people - because of media hype (more is better) - take several hundred mcg of selenium a day, but I usually advise my own patients against higher amounts - not so much because of selenium toxicity (although that does become a concern at higher amounts), but because of its antagonism to chromium, zinc, magnesium, and other nutritional factors. Long-term excessive intake of selenium increases the potential risk of triggering shingles, or developing trabecular osteoporosis, an enlarged prostate, reduced glucose tolerance, cystadenoma (usually in the throat), neurological disturbances, or other negative consequences. Many people get away with mega-supplementation because they take a lot of everything, so one half of what they are taking cancels out the other half. It is when people start to overdose on single items (which they don't actually need), over longer periods of time, that they frequently run into trouble. Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:54:24 GMT in article <koEBf.5662$Hd4.3474@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:26:44 GMT in article >> <oUiBf.1455$1n4.225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >chromium and zinc supplements to compensate for the high selenium intake? >And extra high doses of E too? (Be sure to read the bottom paragraph.) Well, don't wonder, I'm an old hat in this game ;-), remember I've been doing this for 18 years, and having this kind of conversations almost daily for 12 years :-). I think you should concentrate in your own problems, which don't seem to be so minuscule :-). So I suggest you just sit back for a while and learn ;-). As a hint for you, I do take magnesium, manganese, chromium, vanadium, molybdenum, wolfram, tin etc. in the doses prescribed by my doctor :-). >The following 7 paragraphs are excerpts from : >http://www.acu-cell.com/ses.html >Copyright © 2000-2005 Ronald Roth I wouldn't read anything Ron Roth writes, the man is infamous. He used to write here, but has stopped ages ago, probably because of the way he was ridiculed here. I suggest you stick to Medline instead of reading all kind of internet quacks. SignatureMatti Narkia Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:29:10 +0200 in article <1il9t15ecjvk591qk0sjhbt24lri080vi7@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:14:36 GMT in article ><g02Bf.1203$1n4.100@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >and stress hormone reducing herbs such as ginseng and ginkgo biloba are >probably also useful. If you are an aging male, you will also benefit from daily intake of saw palmetto and beta-sitosterol (saw palmetto also contains some beta-sitosterol). Not only the plant sterols in these probably favorably modify your immune system, but they will also help to control benign prostatic hyperplasia. I've taken both supplements for ages, with relatively good results -Matti Narkia > If you are an aging male, you will also benefit from daily intake of saw > palmetto and beta-sitosterol (saw palmetto also contains some > beta-sitosterol). Not only the plant sterols in these probably favorably > modify your immune system, but they will also help to control benign > prostatic hyperplasia. I've taken both supplements for ages, with > relatively good results Yes, I've heard and read about the benefits of saw palmetto for prostate health, but then again it is another of those botanicals that stokes the immune system, which raises the question of how long a continuous span of days it is benficial, beyond which it may produce detrimental effects. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:41:21 GMT in article <5BfBf.2541$Dk.862@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> If you are an aging male, you will also benefit from daily intake of saw >> palmetto and beta-sitosterol (saw palmetto also contains some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >immune system, which raises the question of how long a continuous span of >days it is benficial, beyond which it may produce detrimental effects. Well, first do your research, study Medline. Then make a decision whether to supplement or not. If the studies look promising and you decide to supplement, observe your body. If you are getting less or milder colds and flus than earlier, you are doing something right. If that changes you have to restudy and rethink. Your immune system will not be damaged beyond repair by a simple experiment supported by your research. SignatureMatti Narkia >>Correction: I get 50 mcg not mg of supplementl selenium per day. The RDA >>for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 50 µg is a rather low dose. For cancer prevention I would suggest at > least 200-400 µg/d. From http://www.amazines.com/article.cfm?articleid=3018 However, too much selenium can cause some toxic effects including gastrointestinal upset, brittle nails, hair loss and mild nerve damage. The U.S. E.P.A. has set the maximum ceiling for selenium at 400 ug per day, but that is not the reference dose (RDA) for selenium. The RDA serves as a toxicological standard that is defined as "an estimate (with uncertainty spanning perhaps an order of magnitude) of a daily exposure to the human population (including sensitive subgroups) that is likely to be without an appreciable risk of deleterious effects during a lifetime". That's why the RDA is set so low. The fact that there are some individuals who can take the ceiling limit of 400 ug per day *doesn't* mean its generally safe for anyone to take only 200 ug per day. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:27:10 GMT in article <OnfBf.5229$Hd4.768@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >>>Correction: I get 50 mcg not mg of supplementl selenium per day. The RDA >>>for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >However, too much selenium can cause some toxic effects including >gastrointestinal upset, brittle nails, hair loss and mild nerve damage. Big deal. These are very minor effects and fully reversible, when selenium is discontinued. But even these effects won't happen to _anybody_ at 400 µg/d. >The U.S. E.P.A. has set the maximum ceiling for selenium at 400 ug per day, >but that is not the reference dose (RDA) for selenium. The RDA serves as a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >ceiling limit of 400 ug per day *doesn't* mean its generally safe for anyone >to take only 200 ug per day. I believe that in USA Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) sets Dietary Reference Intakes and Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (UL) for nutrients. The references for selenium are in the on-line report Nat' Academies Press, Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Selenium, and Carotenoids (2000) <http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/> The chapter about selenium starts at the page Selenium <http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/284.html> FYI, I include excerpts from there concerning the adverse effects, No-Observed-Adverse-Effect Level (NOAEL) and The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL): "Hazard Identification "The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) is the highest level of daily nutrient intake that is likely to pose no risk of adverse health effects in almost all individuals. Although members of the general population should be advised not to exceed the UL for selenium routinely, intake above the UL may be appropriate for investigation within well-controlled clinical trials. In light of evaluating possible benefits to health, clinical trials of doses above the UL should not be discouraged, as long as subjects participating in these trials have signed informed consent documents regarding possible toxicity and as long as these trials employ appropriate safety monitoring of trial subjects. Also, the UL is not meant to apply to individuals who are receiving selenium under medical supervision. Adverse Effects "The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for selenium pertains to selenium intake from food and supplements. As discussed earlier, drinking water does not contain nutritionally significant amounts of selenium. The data on chronic selenosis, acute toxicity, and biochemical indicators of toxicity are reviewed. Chronic Selenosis. Chronic toxicity of selenium has been studied in animals and has been observed in humans. The limited data available in humans suggest that chronic toxicities from inorganic and organic forms have similar clinical features but differ in rapidity of onset and relationship to tissue selenium concentrations. The most frequently reported features of selenosis (chronic toxicity) are hair and nail brittleness and loss (Yang et al., 1983). Other reported signs include gastrointestinal disturbances, skin rash, garlic breath odor (caused by selenium compounds), fatigue, irritability, and nervous system abnormalities (CDC, 1984; Helzlsouer et al., 1985; Jensen et al., 1984; Yang et al., 1983; G.-Q. Yang et al., 1989a). The high prevalence of selenosis in Enshi, South China, provided an opportunity to study approximately 380 people with high selenium intakes (Yang and Zhou, 1994; G.-Q. Yang et al., 1989a, 1989b). Toxic effects occurred with increasing frequency in people with a blood selenium concentration greater than 12.7 µmol/L (100 µg/dL), corresponding to a selenium intake above 850 µg/day. [...] Summary Based on considerations of causality, relevance, and the quality and completeness of the database, hair and nail brittleness and loss were selected as the critical endpoints on which to base a UL. Hair and nail brittleness and loss have been reported more frequently than other signs and symptoms of chronic selenosis. Biochemical markers have too much variation to be reliable except under controlled conditions. [...] Identification of a No-Observed-Adverse-Effect Level (NOAEL) and a Lowest-Observed-Adverse-Effects Level (LOAEL). The lowest blood level of selenium measured in the five subjects at initial examination was 13.3 µmol/L (105 µg/dL), corresponding to a selenium intake of 913 µg (12 µmol)/day (range: 913 to 1,907 µg [12 to 24 µmol]/day). The average blood selenium level was 16.9 µmol/L (135 µg/dL). At the time of reexamination in 1992, all five patients were described as recovered from selenium poisoning, although their fingernails reportedly appeared brittle. The mean blood selenium level had decreased to 12.3 µmol/L (97 µg/dL), corresponding to a selenium intake of about 800 µg (10 µmol)/day (range 654 to 952 µg [8.3 to 12 µmol]/day). The lower limit of the 95 percent confidence interval was 600 µg (7.6 µmol)/day. Yang and Zhou (1994) therefore suggested that 913 µg (12 µmol) /day of selenium intake represents an individual marginal toxic daily selenium intake or LOAEL. They further suggested that the mean selenium intake upon reexamination (800 µg [10 µmol]/day), represented a NOAEL, while 600 µg (7.6 µmol)/day of selenium intake was the lower 95 percent confidence limit for the NOAEL. These values appear reasonable, although the number of subjects was small. Nevertheless, the LOAEL for selenosis in this small data set appears to be representative of the larger data set, and the reexamination of the subjects provides valuable dose-response data. Uncertainty occurs because of the smallness of the data set and because the Chinese subjects may not be typical (e.g., they may be more or less sensitive to selenium than other populations). Longnecker et al. (1991) studied 142 ranchers, both men and women, from eastern Wyoming and western South Dakota who were recruited to participate and were suspected of having high selenium intakes based on the occurrence of selenosis in livestock raised in that region. Average selenium intake was 239 µg (3 µmol)/day. Dietary intake and selenium in body tissues (whole blood, serum, urine, toenails) were highly correlated. Blood selenium concentrations in this western U.S. population were related to selenium intake in a similar manner to that found in the Chinese studies, presumably because the form of selenium ingested was selenomethionine. No evidence of selenosis was reported, nor were there any alterations in enzyme activities, prothrombin times, or hematology that could be attributed to selenium intake. The highest selenium intake in the study was 724 µg (9 µmol)/day. It thus appears that a UL based on the Chinese studies is protective for the population in the United States and Canada. Therefore a NOAEL of 800 µg (10 µmol)/day is selected. Uncertainty Assessment. An uncertainty factor (UF) of 2 was selected to protect sensitive individuals. The toxic effect is not severe, but may not be readily reversible, so a UF greater than 1 is needed. Derivation of a UL. The NOAEL of 800 µg/day was divided by a UF of 2 to obtain a UL for adults as follows: NOAEL/UF = 800 µg/day / 2 = 400 µg/day" So you you see, the No-Observed-Adverse-Effect Level (NOAEL) is set to 800 µg/d, which already contains a certain safety margin. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL), which you refer as "ceiling" has been obtained by dividing the NOAEL by an extra safety factor of 2. So the fact is that no one has ever had adverse effects of any daily selenium dose lower than 800 µg. Remember that I only suggested 200-400 µg/d, which is absolutely safe even according to FNB, it does not even exceed their extra safe UL. Soil selenium content varies tremendously. If I remember right, in some part of South America, people can get form daily diet an amount of selenium approaching 800 µg. Various selenium compounds may somewhat differ in their toxicity, the safest is probably sodium selenate which I suggested. Inorganic selenium compounds sodium selenate and sodium selenite may also be the best selenium compounds for cancer prevention and treatment. I've taken, from doctor's prescription, 800-1000 µg of sodium selenate daily for 18 years with nothing but beneficial effects. As FNB report mentions, selenium toxicity does not take by surprise, the breath may start smelling of garlic, one may start losing some hair, they may be some changes in fingernails. All these early symptoms of selenium toxicity disappear without trace when selenium is discontinued. One unshelled Brazil nut, which you crack yourself, averages 100 µg, says Donald J. Lisk of Cornell University. A shelled nut, found in health food stores, averages 12-25 µg. See Chang JC, Gutenmann WH, Reid CM, Lisk DJ. Selenium content of Brazil nuts from two geographic locations in Brazil. Chemosphere. 1995 Feb;30(4):801-2. PMID: 7889353 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7 889353&dopt=Abstract> (http://tinyurl.com/sjwb) Vonderheide AP, Wrobel K, Kannamkumarath SS, B'Hymer C, Montes-Bayon M, Ponce De Leon C, Caruso JA. Characterization of selenium species in Brazil nuts by HPLC-ICP-MS and ES-MS. J Agric Food Chem. 2002 Sep 25;50(20):5722-8. PMID: 12236705 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2236705&dopt=Abstract> (http://tinyurl.com/sjxx) USA WEEKEND Magazine <http://www.usaweekend.com/food/carper_archive/961006carper_eatsmart.html> "HOW TOXIC? Lisk puts the toxic dose at 2,500mcg daily." Selenium, Brazil Nuts and Prostate Cancer <http://www.cancerdecisions.com/121001.html> Other references: Corcoran NM, Najdovska M, Costello AJ. Inorganic selenium retards progression of experimental hormone refractory prostate cancer. J Urol. 2004 Feb;171(2 Pt 1):907-10. PMID: 14713851 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=14713851> Salbe AD, Levander OA. Comparative toxicity and tissue retention of selenium in methionine-deficient rats fed sodium selenate or L-selenomethionine. J Nutr. 1990 Feb;120(2):207-12. PMID: 2313384 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=2313384> SignatureMatti Narkia 18 years of experience with great results definitely raises some eyebrows. I respect the fact that you have not only dug up the research, but have sought doctor's supervision, and are also aware of the early warning signs of toxicity. All of these things are very important when conducting such a radical experiment on oneself. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:43:36 GMT in article <c8jBf.2604$Dk.1518@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >18 years of experience with great results definitely raises some eyebrows. I >respect the fact that you have not only dug up the research, but have sought >doctor's supervision, and are also aware of the early warning signs of >toxicity. All of these things are very important when conducting such a >radical experiment on oneself. Yes, dosing has been prescribed by my doctor, who also has supervised me during all these years. But don't forget that NOAEL of selenium also in USA is 800 µg/d, which already includes a certain safety margin. SignatureMatti Narkia > Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:14:36 GMT in article > <g02Bf.1203$1n4.100@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > moderate doses daily with no problmes whatsoever. But you may not need > all of these. Astragalus and/or propolis may be all you need. I've read the bottle labels of such extracts and many of them state in the instructions not to continue the suggested dosages longer than one week. Matti, obviously you have a bold approach to alternative medicine and are willing to ignore published warnings. What works great for you may be too much to take for another individual. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:37:10 GMT in article <axfBf.2534$Dk.14@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >> Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:14:36 GMT in article >> <g02Bf.1203$1n4.100@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >I've read the bottle labels of such extracts and many of them state in the >instructions not to continue the suggested dosages longer than one week. For astragalus and propolis? I have seen no such warnings and I've bought them from many European countries. If you seen them in USA it's probably a local phenomenon caused by overzealous litigation lawyers in that country :-). I read Medline studies and base my conclusions on them. >Matti, obviously you have a bold approach to alternative medicine and are >willing to ignore published warnings. What works great for you may be too >much to take for another individual. As I said, no warnings for astragalus or propolis where I live. Not all of us live in a country of greedy lawyers :-). SignatureMatti Narkia > Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:37:10 GMT in article >... > I read Medline studies and base my conclusions on them. Really Matti, or do you read Medline abstracts and imagine what the papers were saying in detail? Chypho... Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:58:48 +1100 in article <43d5a5fa$0$3542$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au> "Neryl Chyphes" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: >> Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:37:10 GMT in article >>... >> I read Medline studies and base my conclusions on them. > >Really Matti, or do you read Medline abstracts and imagine what the papers were saying in detail? I read abstracts _and_ full studies when they are available, which is quite often nowadays. Sometimes I even buy the full article _before_ it becomes freely available. SignatureMatti Narkia Ha-ha. Yep I'm from the USA. Funny how the word has gotten out far and wide about the law suit mentality over here. I know people of that despicable mentality. However my own principles are different. I had a botched surgery of a ruptured achilles tendon injury that resulted in a lot of nerve damage and permanent wasting of my calf muscle. I suppose I could've sued the doctor, but I realized that he was only doing his best, and after all I was able to walk again. Where are you from? Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:55:15 GMT in article <7jjBf.1475$1n4.855@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: >Ha-ha. Yep I'm from the USA. Funny how the word has gotten out far and wide >about the law suit mentality over here. I know people of that despicable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >doctor, but I realized that he was only doing his best, and after all I was >able to walk again. Where are you from? I live in Finland and buy my supplements usually from local shops here or by mail order from other EU countries, sometimes even from USA. SignatureMatti Narkia Mon, 23 Jan 2006 03:54:31 +0200 in article <tl98t15u4d525u9ckgfsvk438o8r6psh7k@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Many things can go wrong with immune system. One of the currently >popular hypotheses is that imbalance between type 1 and type 2 T helper [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and trace elements (zinc for example) may help to correct this >imbalance. Below some references about zinc's effect on Th1/Th2 balance, and one reference about plant sterols and sterolins: Prasad AS. Effects of zinc deficiency on Th1 and Th2 cytokine shifts. J Infect Dis. 2000 Sep;182 Suppl 1:S62-8. PMID: 10944485 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=10944485> <http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/JID/journal/issues/v182nS1/991533/991533.html> Prasad AS. Zinc deficiency. BMJ. 2003 Feb 22;326(7386):409-10. PMID: 12595353 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7386/409> Rink L, Kirchner H. Zinc-altered immune function and cytokine production. J Nutr. 2000 May;130(5S Suppl):1407S-11S. Review. PMID: 10801952 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1407S> Sprietsma JE. Modern diets and diseases: NO-zinc balance. Under Th1, zinc and nitrogen monoxide (NO) collectively protect against viruses, AIDS, autoimmunity, diabetes, allergies, asthma, infectious diseases, atherosclerosis and cancer. Med Hypotheses. 1999 Jul;53(1):6-16. Review. PMID: 10499817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=10499817> Prasad AS. Zinc and immunity. Mol Cell Biochem. 1998 Nov;188(1-2):63-9. Review. PMID: 9823012 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9823012> Shankar AH, Prasad AS. Zinc and immune function: the biological basis of altered resistance to infection. Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Aug;68(2 Suppl):447S-463S. Review. PMID: 9701160 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9701160> <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/68/2/447S> Solomons NW. Mild human zinc deficiency produces an imbalance between cell-mediated and humoral immunity. Nutr Rev. 1998 Jan;56(1 Pt 1):27-8. Review. PMID: 9481116 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9481116> Sprietsma JE. Zinc-controlled Th1/Th2 switch significantly determines development of diseases. Med Hypotheses. 1997 Jul;49(1):1-14. Review. PMID: 9247900 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9247900> Beck FW, Prasad AS, Kaplan J, Fitzgerald JT, Brewer GJ Changes in cytokine production and T cell subpopulations in experimentally induced zinc-deficient humans. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jun;272(6 Pt 1):E1002-7. PMID: 9227444 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/272/6/E1002> Prasad AS, Beck FW, Grabowski SM, Kaplan J, Mathog RH. Zinc deficiency: changes in cytokine production and T-cell subpopulations in patients with head and neck cancer and in noncancer subjects. Proc Assoc Am Physicians. 1997 Jan;109(1):68-77. PMID: 9010918 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9010918> Cakman I, Rohwer J, Schutz RM, Kirchner H, Rink L. Dysregulation between TH1 and TH2 T cell subpopulations in the elderly. Mech Ageing Dev. 1996 Jun 25;87(3):197-209. PMID: 8794447 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=8794447> Bouic PJ, Lamprecht JH. Plant sterols and sterolins: a review of their immune-modulating properties. Altern Med Rev. 1999 Jun;4(3):170-7. Review. PMID: 10383481 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/4/3/170.pdf> -Matti Narkia Mon, 23 Jan 2006 03:54:31 +0200 in article <tl98t15u4d525u9ckgfsvk438o8r6psh7k@4ax.com> Matti Narkia <narkia@yahoo.com> wrote: >Many things can go wrong with immune system. One of the currently >popular hypotheses is that imbalance between type 1 and type 2 T helper [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and trace elements (zinc for example) may help to correct this >imbalance. As for vitamin A, one should be a bit careful. One should get enough of it, but 3000-4000 IU/d is sufficient. Anything above that may increase the risk of osteoporosis in long term use. And for women in fertile age, dose of 8000 IU or even a bit lower could increase the risk of infant birth defects. Also, extra vitamin A seems to bias the Th1/Th2 balance in Th2 direction, so if one's problem is Th2 dominance (intact humoral immunity, but defects in cell mediated immunity), one should be careful not to take large doses of vitamin A. But if one's problem is excessive Th1 dominance, extra vitamin A may be needed. References: 1: Yu S, Xia M, Xu W, Chu Y, Wang Y, Xiong S. All-trans retinoic acid biases immune response induced by DNA vaccine in a Th2 direction. Vaccine. 2005 Oct 25;23(44):5160-7. PMID: 16040168 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16040168> 2: Ma Y, Chen Q, Ross AC. Retinoic acid and polyriboinosinic:polyribocytidylic acid stimulate robust anti-tetanus antibody production while differentially regulating type 1/type 2 cytokines and lymphocyte populations. J Immunol. 2005 Jun 15;174(12):7961-9. PMID: 15944302 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15944302> 3: Wieringa FT, Dijkhuizen MA, West CE, van der Ven-Jongekrijg J, van der Meer JW; Muhilal. Reduced production of immunoregulatory cytokines in vitamin A- and zinc-deficient Indonesian infants. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Nov;58(11):1498-504. PMID: 15162133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15162133> 4: Stephensen CB, Jiang X, Freytag T. Vitamin A deficiency increases the in vivo development of IL-10-positive Th2 cells and decreases development of Th1 cells in mice. J Nutr. 2004 Oct;134(10):2660-6. PMID: 15465763 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15465763> 5: Leal JY, Castejon HV, Romero T, Ortega P, Gomez G, Amaya D, Estevez J. [Serum values of cytokines in children with vitamin A deficiency disorders] Invest Clin. 2004 Sep;45(3):243-56. Spanish. PMID: 15469069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15469069> 6: Tao YH, Yang Y. [Effects of vitamin A on the differentiation, maturation and functions of dendritic cells from cord blood] Zhonghua Er Ke Za Zhi. 2004 May;42(5):340-3. Chinese. PMID: 15189689 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15189689> 7: Iwata M, Eshima Y, Kagechika H. Retinoic acids exert direct effects on T cells to suppress Th1 development and enhance Th2 development via retinoic acid receptors. Int Immunol. 2003 Aug;15(8):1017-25. PMID: 12882839 [PubMed - <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=12882839> 8: Stephensen CB, Rasooly R, Jiang X, Ceddia MA, Weaver CT, Chandraratna RA, Bucy RP. Vitamin A enhances in vitro Th2 development via retinoid X receptor pathway. J Immunol. 2002 May 1;168(9):4495-503. PMID: 11970994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=11970994> 9: Stephensen CB. Vitamin A, infection, and immune function. Annu Rev Nutr. 2001;21:167-92. Review. PMID: 11375434 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=11375434> 10: Cui D, Moldoveanu Z, Stephensen CB. High-level dietary vitamin A enhances T-helper type 2 cytokine production and secretory immunoglobulin A response to influenza A virus infection in BALB/c mice. J Nutr. 2000 May;130(5):1132-9. PMID: 10801909 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=10801909> 11: Nikawa T, Odahara K, Koizumi H, Kido Y, Teshima S, Rokutan K, Kishi K. Vitamin A prevents the decline in immunoglobulin A and Th2 cytokine levels in small intestinal mucosa of protein-malnourished mice. J Nutr. 1999 May;129(5):934-41. PMID: 10222382 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=10222382&query_hl=0&itool=pubmed_DocSum> 12: Wauben-Penris PJ, Cerneus DP, van den Hoven WE, Leuven PJ, den Brok JH, Hall DW. Immunomodulatory effects of tretinoin in combination with clindamycin. J Eur Acad Dermatol Venereol. 1998 Sep;11 Suppl 1:S2-7; discussion S28-9. PMID: 9891902 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9891902> 13: Frankenburg S, Wang X, Milner Y. Vitamin A inhibits cytokines produced by type 1 lymphocytes in vitro. Cell Immunol. 1998 Apr 10;185(1):75-81. PMID: 9636685 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9636685> 14: Lessard M, Hutchings D, Cave NA. Cell-mediated and humoral immune responses in broiler chickens maintained on diets containing different levels of vitamin A. Poult Sci. 1997 Oct;76(10):1368-78. PMID: 9316112 [PubMed - |
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