Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2009
Enig vs. Peat - "EFAs" vs. Mead Acid: The Debate.
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montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:15 GMT Copy and paste this one into your word processing software and save it. Print it out and give it to those who have an interest in nutrition, diet, and medical issues.
On the Weston Price web site (http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/essentialfattyaciddef.html ) we are presented with an essay by "fatty acid expert" Mary Enig, who disputes the proposal that Mead acid is what nature intended for organisms like humans, contradicting biochemist Ray Peat's view that omega 3s and 6s are basically "nothing but trouble," to put it colloquially. Interestingly, she speaks in the tone of an authority figure who is not to be questioned, and cites no evidence, though she has criticized other scientists for doing the exact same things. For example, in Science 2002 295: 1464-1465, there is the following statement:
"IN HIS LETTER ABOUT THE ARTICLE "THE soft science of dietary fat" (News Focus, G. Taubes, 30 Mar. 2001, p. 2536), Scott M. Grundy says that saturated fatty acids (SFA) are the main dietary cause of coronary heart disease (CHD) ("Dietary fat: at the heart of the matter," 3 Aug., p. 801), and he cites two reviews in support (1, 2). In one of the reviews, there are no references (1); in the other, of which Grundy is a co-author, most of the references do not appear to be supportive of his statement."
I must admit that though she has done much good work (for example, her book on "traditional diets" and her essay on canola oil were excellent, though of course I don't agree with everything she says), and until now I just thought she was simply unfamiliar with the literature (which she may be), there is something else. There is an arrogance, which is fine with me, if she is willing to think clearly and address the relevant evidence. Since she does not, there is nothing but the arrogance and a load of misleading statements; this is an example of "establishment science" at its worst. I have lost a great deal of respect for her, intellectually (I don't know her personally). She fought the "good fight" against the anti-cholesterol crowd, but now it seems that her ignorance of general biochemical principles has taken its toll on her ability to understand the underlying mechanism involved here.
Below this paragraph is her essay, with my comments in brackets, followed by two studies to which she alludes, but for some reason does not cite directly, followed by my comments on the studies, and then some concluding remarks. Note that this is not a "minor" point. If Mead acid is what "nature intended," and if the huge amount of evidence demonstrating the dangers of more than trace amounts of omega 3 and 6 PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) in the diet is even somewhat true, then we are dealing with something like a combination of genocide and suicide - suigenocide? "Chronic disease" and the consumption of highly unsaturated oils have risen with the exact same curve (if graphed out), yet it is only recently that molecular-level evidence is available in abundance to support this claim, but apparently because people like Enig want to "defend their turf" (notice the snide remark about who has the "expertise" even though fatty acids are among the simplest biological molecules and the experiments needed for verification comprehensible to children), there is a sense among such people that the dogma must be defended at all costs and without regard for the scientific method.
"A Reply to Ray Peat on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency"
By Mary G. Enig, PhD
Ray Peat, PhD, is an influential health writer who claims that there is no such thing as essential fatty acid (EFA) deficiency. According to Peat, the body can make its own EFAs; furthermore, he claims that EFAs in the body become rancid and therefore cause cancer.
Unfortunately, Peat does not understand the use of EFA by the human body. He is trained in hormone therapy and his training in fats and oils has been limited to misinformation as far as the polyunsaturated fats and oils are concerned.
Research on EFAs is voluminous and consistent: EFAs are types of fatty acids that the body cannot make, but must obtain from food. We do not make them because they exist in virtually all foods, and the body needs them only in small amounts. The body does make saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids because it needs these in large amounts and cannot count on getting all it needs from food.
[then where are all the dead people who didn't consume omega 3s in decades, such as my relatives who lived to be 100, or are still alive and in their 90s? Also, the body does make a PUFA, the Mead acid. And why can't she cite one on point experiment that is not terribly flawed?]
There are two types of EFAs, those of the omega-6 family and those of the omega-3 family. The basic omega-6 fatty acid is called linoleic acid and it contains two double bonds. It is found in virtually all foods, but especially in nuts and seeds. The basic omega-3 fatty acid is called linolenic acid and it contains three double bonds. It is found in some grains (such as wheat) and nuts (such as walnuts) as well as in eggs, organ meats and fish if these animals are raised naturally, and in green vegetables if the plants are raised organically.
[The claim that only organically grown green vegetables can contain some omega 3s is extraordinary, almost supernatural, but without any citations, I will not pursue this tangential point here.]
Essential fatty acids have two principal roles. The first is as a constituent of the cell membrane. Each cell in the body is surrounded by a membrane composed of billions of fatty acids. About half of these fatty acids are saturated or monounsaturated to provide stability to the membrane. The other half are polyunsaturated, mostly EFAs , which provide flexibility and participate in a number of biochemical processes. The other vital role for EFAs is as a precursor for prostaglandins or local tissue hormones, which control different physiological functions including inflammation and blood clotting.
[The "cell membrane" claims have been refuted decisively by Gilbert Ling, but if it is true, "EFAD" animals should literally fall apart, but they do not - the major effect is to slow growth, which is not detrimental, but beneficial to adults humans. Furthermore, one should need more than small amounts of omega 3s and 6s if they are needed to hold cells together, and this would lead people to eat more than the threshold amount for cancer, as the NRC and other scientists have determined. The intelligent thing to do would be to avoid any major source of omega 3s and 6s and wait until one's body showed deficiency signs, then supplement. I have done this for about 4 years, Peat about a decade - we only see benefits at this point. In my own experience, the reverse has been observed: my blood clots better now - healing is a little slower, but there is little in the way of "inflammation" and there is no itchy feeling. Also, a nasty case of rosacea that I had for over a decade went away. This is consistent with biochemical activity as the underlying mechanism, not some special need for particular unsaturated fatty acids. However, she has no excuse for ignoring the many studies which reach such conclusions as: "COX-2 derived prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) can promote tumor growth by binding its receptors and activating signaling pathways which control cell proliferation, migration, apoptosis, and/or angiogenesis. However, the prolonged use of high dosages of COX-2 selective inhibitors (COXIBs) is associated with unacceptable cardiovascular side effects." Source: Gut. 2005 Aug 23; [Epub ahead of print] "Prostaglandins and cancer." Wang D, Dubois RN. As I've said, with Mead acid, there is no COX-2 problem because there is no COX-2 expression, due to the lower level of biochemical activity involved. Enig acts as if these kinds of studies, as well as the many studies that show benefits from Mead acid, along with others that have observed things like Mead acid in healthy young cartilage but arachidonic acid (AA) in old, arthritic cartilage, do not exist! For example: "n-9 20:3 acid [Mead acid] in cartilage may be important for maintaining normal cartilage structure." Source: The FASEB Journal, Vol 5, 344-353, Copyright © 1991 by The Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. Enig's presentation is irresponsible and demonstrates a serious breach of scholarly integrity - there is no excuse for it. I, on the other hand, try to read every relevant study, and will respond directly and clearly to any study which appears to contradict the points I make here. If I am wrong or mistaken, I admit it, and learn from it]
Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their only fat. (Full hydrogenation gets rid of all the EFAs; coconut oil is used because it is the only fat that can be fully hydrogenated and still be soft enough to eat.) The animals developed dry coats and skin and slowly declined in health, dying prematurely. (Interestingly, representatives of the vegetable oil industry blame the health problems on coconut oil, not on fatty acid deficiency!)
[A citation here is crucial, but this claim about coconut oil makes no sense and is misleading. Fresh coconut oil is natural, hydrogenated coconut oil introduces complicating factors that a scientist tries to eliminate from experiments, such as toxic nickel from the hydrogenation process. Since fresh coconut oils contains no omega 3s, there is no reason to use the unnatural hydrogenated stuff, which may indeed act as a strong inhibitor of what is truly needed in pregnant animals, that is, biochemical activity. Without omega 3s, the animals would be "deficient" and should not produce viable offspring. There are all kinds of claims these days about the need for omega 3s in pregnancy, and so the fresh coconut oil should be used if one wants to do a more scientifically consistent experiment. Yet the best idea would be to feed mice that ate only fresh coconut oil as their fat source to a carnivorous animal like cats, both pregnant ones and adult males. The cats should be allowed to eat as many mice as they want, in whatever way they want, so that nature would dictate the diet, with the one exception of Mead acid being substituted for omega 3 and 6 PUFAs. This would demonstrated whether omega 3s and 6s are special, or whether it's a matter of a threshold amount of biochemical activity.]
In a situation of fatty acid deficiency, the body tries to compensate by producing a fatty acid called Mead acid out of the monounsaturated oleic acid. It is a 20-carbon fatty acid with three double bonds named after James Mead, a lipids researcher at the University of California at Los Angeles who first identified it. An elevated level of Mead acid in the body is a marker of EFA deficiency.
According to Peat, elevated levels of Mead acid constitute proof that your body can make EFAs. However, the Mead acid acts as a "filler" fatty acid that cannot serve the functions that the original EFA are needed for. Peat claims that Mead acid has a full spectrum of protective anti-inflammatory effects; however, the body cannot convert Mead acid into the elongated fatty acids that the body needs for making the various anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.
[this is really perplexing, because if AA "overdose" is the cause of "inflammation," one would not need anti-inflammatory substances if there was no substance that caused inflammation in the first place. And how does she know that Mead acid is a "filler?" What is a "filler, scientifically?" She seems to make things up as she goes along, without any regard for scientific principles. Ironically, much of her essay is what we used to call "filler" in grad school. ]
Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go through different stages of controlled oxidation. To say that these fatty acids become "rancid" is misleading. Of course, EFAs can become rancid through high temperature processing and it is not healthy to consume these types of fats. But the EFAs that we take in through fresh, unprocessed food are not rancid and do not become rancid in the body. In small amounts, they are essential for good health. In large amounts, they can pose health problems which is why we need to avoid all the commercial vegetable oils containing high levels of polyunsaturates.
[Here, Enig should be clear about what she means. A google search for "in vivo lipid peroxidation" produced 14,100 results. She appears to be far outside the scientific mainstream on this point, but if she does not explain how she came to this conclusion - as I always do about my claims - her claim cannot be taken seriously. Moreover, there are some phenomena that is undeniable: what about food that is not completely digested? I ate foods that came out of me looking the same way they did when I ate them, when I had the terrible bout of malabsorption. There would have been at least some in vivo lipid peroxidation going on under such circumstances. I sped up the aging of my gastrointestinal track by my diet high in nuts, seeds, beans, flax, etc., but it is known that many people produce less stomach acid and enzymes as they age, meaning that even if they don't eat too much, there will likely be some undigested food in their guts. And it is the ease with which the highly unstable omega 3s and 6s are changed in the body, or during cooking, into very dangerous molecules such as 4-HNE that may do the most damage. The omega 3s and 6s don't just "stand around" waiting for "good things" to happen to them.]
Peat's reasoning has led him to claim that cod liver oil causes cancer because cod liver oil contains polyunsaturated fatty acids. Actually, the main fatty acid in cod liver oil is a monounsaturated fatty acid. The two main polyunsaturated fatty acids in cod liver oil are the elongated omega-3 fatty acids called EPA and DHA, which play many vital roles in the body and actually can help protect against cancer. Furthermore, cod liver oil is our best dietary source of vitamins A and D, which also protect us against cancer.
[Enig's reasoning here is incomprehensible: Peat has argued that high-quality olive oil, a great source of oleic acid, is much better than oils such as safflower (unless you want to paint with it). Almost everything with fat contains some oleic acid. Oleic acid is not the issue, and she should know this. If you mixed cyanide with olive oil and fed them to mice and the mice died, we would all agree that the cyanide was to blame. The issue is susceptibility to free radical degradation, and that is where the very unstable EPA and DHA molecules are a major cause of concern. If fish oil protects against cancer and has no "down side," then she or those who agree with her should take me up on my offer, which the evidence suggests will demonstrate that biochemical activity is the mechanism involved. The idea that omega 3s and 6s are essential is inconsistent with basic biochemical principles, because cells need the stress from excess biochemical activity to grow, not any particular fatty acid. Experiments should substitute an amount of Mead acid that has the equivalent biochemical potency of the amount of arachidonic acid that is considered necessary for proper growth. This would be settle the issue once and for all (assuming the experiment was conducted properly), and provide a scientific basis for accepting or discarding what up to this point have been grand pronouncements based upon opinions about what the supposed results of terribly flawed experiments mean.
And again, there are no citations for these remarkable claims about EPA/DHA.]
Actually, Peat's argument that polyunsaturated fatty acids become harmful in the body and hence cause cancer simply does not make sense. It is impossible to avoid polyunsaturated fatty acids because they are in all foods.
[Does she realize that Mead acid is a PUFA - apparently not. Moreover, this demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the relevant literature, which suggests that there is a threshold amount that causes much higher rates of cancer - the NRC saw this about 15 years ago, and I have quoted them on this point on this newsgroup several times over the years.]
EFAs are, however, harmful in large amounts and the many research papers cited by Peat showing immune problems, increased cancer and premature aging from feeding of polyunsaturates simply corroborate this fact. But Peat has taken studies indicating that large amounts of EFAs are bad for us (a now well-established fact) and used them to argue that we don't need any at all.
[According to the NRC, these "large amounts" are less than most Americans are consuming these days, which means this is a kind of dietary national emergency.]
Finally, it should be stressed that certain components of the diet actually reduce (but do not eliminate) our requirements for EFAs. The main one is saturated fatty acids which help us conserve EFAs and put them in the tissues where they belong. Some studies indicate that vitamin B6 can ameliorate the problems caused by EFA deficiency, possibly by helping us use them more efficiently. [AA in your tissues means it will be released upon minor stressors. Is this good? "...lethal injuries sustained by cells during short exposures to AA were caused by the fatty acid itself..." Biochem Pharmacol. 2004 Mar 1;67(5):903-9. "Ca2+ influx is not involved in acute cytotoxicity of arachidonic acid." Doroshenko N, Doroshenko P. Apparently, she is referring to the "antioxidant" effect of eating plenty of SFAs have, as Peat has said specifically, since SFAs are resistant to oxidation and can act as a "buffer" to free radical reactions, and hence, to AA metabolization.]
About the Author
Mary G. Enig, PhD is the author of Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats, Oils, and Cholesterol, Bethesda Press, May 2000. Order your copy here: www.enig.com/trans.html.
IMPORTANT CORRECTION
In the Winter 2004 "Know Your Fats" column we stated that Siberian pinenut oil was a good source of gamma-linolenic acid (GLA). This was indicated from fatty acid analyses performed in Siberia. We have since performed further tests on the oil and found that it does not contain significant amounts of GLA but rather a fatty acid called pinoleic acid, an 18-carbon fatty acid with three double bonds but with the first double bond on the fifth carbon, not the sixth, as in GLA. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
[she is supposed to be a "fatty acid expert," and yet was unable to do a simple analysis of this pinenut oil - makes one wonder about her competency even in her area of "expertise"]
Now here are some abstracts that she seems to use in the above essay. Because she did not cite her sources, as is "essential" in a scientific paper, one cannot be sure what she was alluding to:
Br J Nutr. 1996 Feb;75(2):237-48.
Protein utilization, growth and survival in essential-fatty-acid-deficient rats.
Henry CJ, Ghusain-Choueiri A, Payne PR.
School of Biological and Molecular Sciences, Oxford Brookes University.
The relationship between essential fatty acids (EFA) deficiency and the utilization of dietary protein, growth rate and survival of offspring was investigated in rats during development and reproduction. EFA deficiency was induced by feeding a 200 g casein/kg-based diet containing 70 g hydrogenated coconut oil (HCO)/kg as the only source of fat. The conversion efficiency of dietary protein was assessed as net protein utilization (NPU), using a 10 d comparative carcass technique. Consumption of the deficient diet during the 10 d assay period induced biochemical changes characteristic of mild EFA deficiency in humans (triene:tetraene 0.27 (SD 0.04) compared with 0.026 (SD 0.004) for non-deficient controls), but there were no significant changes in growth rate or protein utilization. These variables were also unchanged when the deficient diet was fed for an additional 7 d before the assay, although triene:tetraene increased to 0.8 (SD 0.02). Feeding the deficient diet for 63 d before assay produced severe EFA deficiency (triene:tetraene 1.4 (SD 0.3) v. 0.036 (SD 0.005) for controls), a fall in growth rate (25% during assay period), and NPU (31.5 (SD 0.63) v. 39.0 (SD 0.93) for controls). These severely-EFA-deficient animals had a 30% higher fasting-resting rate of energy metabolism than that of age-matched controls. However, there was no change in the rate of endogenous N loss. Voluntary energy consumption was increased in animals fed on deficient diets, either with 200 g protein/kg, or protein free. The reduced efficiency of protein utilization could be entirely accounted for by the restricted amount of energy available for growth and protein deposition. Consumption of an EFA-deficient diet during pregnancy and lactation resulted in high mortality (11% survival rate at weaning compared with 79% for controls) and retarded growth in the preweaning offspring. It is concluded that animals are particularly sensitive to EFA deficiency during reproduction and pre- and post-natal stages of development. However, after weaning only severe EFA deficiency retarded growth, primarily through changes in energy balance.
I agree with this study in some ways, though I think the underlying mechanism is not correct. It is not omega 3 and 6 PUFAs that are "essential," but a certain amount of biochemical activity stimulation, which all agree occurs when a threshold amount of unsaturated fatty acids are consumed. As they say, "EFA deficiency retarded growth," and this is my point: that is, you want what they call "retarded growth" if you are a grown human being who is not pregnant - otherwise, you are flirting with cancer and other "chronic diseases." Notice that some of the offspring did survive, even with no unsaturated fatty acids at all. This is strong evidence that omega 3s and 6s are not "essential," because if they were there should have been no survivors. Their results are consistent with Peat's claim that oxidative stress, often from excess PUFA consumption, leads to thyroid suppression and more energy, which requires more energy/calories. They probably did not feed the hydrogenated coconut oil mice enough food, because their "normals" were based on mice with suppressed thyroids. Farmers have known for decades that soy and corn cause farm animals to "fatten up" - this is not news. The key point is that the only possible "negative" in "essential fatty acid deficiency" is less growth, exactly what I, as a grown adult human, want at this point, and as I've mentioned in past posts, I was able to recover fully from severe osteoporosis (as well as a nasty bout of tendonosis) on a diet with only trace amounts of omega 3s and 6s, so the "no growth" claim must be false or overemphasized to such a degree as to be laughable. High quality protein in larger amounts seems to have made a big difference in my case, not omega 3 and 6 PUFAs, which are for fast plant growth or for animals swimming around in very cold waters.
Now here's another such study (one that we must assume Enig is alluding to):
J Nutr. 1996 Apr;126(4 Suppl):1081S-5S.Related Articles,Links
Is dietary arachidonic acid necessary for feline reproduction?
Pawlosky RJ, Salem N Jr.
National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse, Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological Research, Rockville, MD 20852, USA.
A study was carried out to determine whether corn oil-based diets devoid of arachidonic acid, 20:4(n-6), are capable of supporting feline reproduction. One group of four adult female felines were acclimated to a 10 weight% (wt%) fat diet consisting of 1 wt% corn oil and 9 wt% hydrogenated coconut oil for 1 mo before mating. One female produced two live offspring, and the other three females delivered either stillborn fetuses or offspring that were severely deformed and died shortly after birth. Two of these females were subsequently placed on a 1 wt% corn oil diet that was supplemented with 20:4(n-6) (200 mg/ kg of diet), and after 2 mo they were mated. Offspring resulting from the second mating were healthy. A third group of females that were maintained on a 10 wt% fat diet consisting of 3 wt% corn oil were also mated. The offspring from these matings appeared healthy at birth. Neonates from each diet group were killed, and the fatty acyl composition of the livers, plasma and brains was analyzed. In the offspring livers and plasma, the level of 20:4(n-6) from both the 1 wt% or 3 wt% corn oil diet groups was about half that of offspring from those receiving 20:4(n-6) in the diet. There were no differences in the level of 20:4(n-6) in the neonate brains among any of the groups. This study suggests that nutritional factors unrelated to the tissue accumulation of arachidonic acid in the offspring may be responsible for the high percentage of stillbirths and deformities associated with maternal diets containing low amounts of essential fatty acids but that diets that contain a higher percentage of corn oil can support feline reproduction.
Four animals are not enough, obviously, but this experiment is revealing because even consuming a diet in an anti-growth substance like hydrogenated coconut oil (HCO) one of f the four produced healthy kittens. Once again, this experiment demonstrates that "EFAs" are not "essential," even during pregnancy. The animals may not have been fed enough, and thus could not produce enough Mead acid to meet the special needs of pregnancy. Rosemary and other powerful antioxidant herbs and spices are in some ways similar to HCO in their anti-growth effects. If the animals were force fed foods rich in oregano, basil, rosemary, etc. (I doubt that they would voluntarily eat it), my guess is that no offspring would have been viable. Yet nobody is telling pregnant women not to eat such foods, which is good advice, unless they want a miscarriage (most would likely be revolted by the thought of eating such foods due to instincts). The underlying mechanism is biochemical activity. You need plenty of it in pregnancy, but not in adulthood. People are being told to consume such substances (antioxidants, "phytonutrients," etc.), and yet they are also being told to consume omega 3s and 6s, which have the opposite effects. There is nothing special about omega 3s and 6s, except that they are much more unstable/biochemically active than the Mead acid PUFA, yet "experts" talk of omega 3s and 6s as if they are endowed with supernatural qualities. If they want to claim that there is no equivalency in biochemical activity (for example, 1 arachidonic acid molecule might be as biochemically active as 5 Mead acid molecules) but that there is some special quality to AA, and not Mead acid, then it is their responsibility to demonstrate this in a controlled experiment. The experiments they point to do not demonstrate what they say they do. Their claims resemble religious doctrines more than anything else.
I will propose an experiment that does meet the criteria: take mice that have been fed fresh coconut oil as their only major fat source their entire lives and feed them to pregnant cats. The mice will have Mead acid in them, but nothing more than trace amounts of omega 3s and 6s (if any). Allow the cats to eat all the mice they want, so that caloric intake and unnatural diets will not be a factor. Probably 30 or 40 cats will be better than 4, and if enough cats are studied, we will know if the issue is biochemical activity in general, or some special quality of omega 3s and 6s which has yet to be determined by science (biochemical activity, on the other hand, is a basic principle, and can be measured), but we can start with several and see what results. If they all produce viable offspring, there would be no need to go further: it would be clear that the EFA claim is as nonsensical as can be.
One point that seems to elude people like Enig is that two scientific models can, and often do, exist at the same time, but one must be more accurate than the other. The way to determine which is more accurate is to do on point experiments, not experiments that can be explained by both models.
In the absence of such experiments, there are other sources that are suggestive, such as the demographic data showing hardly any "chronic disease" among those who eat large amounts of fresh coconut. There are epidemiological studies, most of which are flawed in the dietary/nutrition context because they begin with faulty assumptions rather than gathering data and looking at all the factors in play. A few have done this, and have found that "red meat" and "processed meat" are associated with higher rates of "heart disease," due to the free radical damage that occurs to these food items, as well as to the high arachidonic acid, iron, and cholesterol content. As Dr. Richard Stein said a few months, it's only the oxidized cholesterol that is a problem (page B17 of New York's Newsday newspaper, March 1, 2005), though I have been saying this here for a few years or so. Thus, the fact that beef has a bit more saturated fatty acids than chicken is irrelevant. In fact, if beef was as high in saturated fatty acids as coconut oil, it might be a much safer food (due to the resistance of saturated fatty acids to oxidation), and yet because it is a bit higher in SFAs, the "saturated fat," which has no precise definition in this context anyway, gets all the blame.
And this brings us to molecular level evidence, which is overwhelmingly supportive of the points I make here. For example, a recent experiment found that "When mildly oxidized, liposomes containing either linoleic acid or arachadonic acid increased monocyte chemotaxis and monocyte adhesion to endothelial cells nearly 5-fold, demonstrating that oxidation products of both these polyunsaturated fatty acids are bioactive," whereas "In contrast, when liposomes were enriched in oleic acid, monocyte chemotaxis and monocyte adhesion were nearly completely inhibited. These results suggest that enriching lipoproteins with oleic acid may reduce oxidation both by a direct "antioxidant"-like effect and by reducing the amount of linoleic acid available for oxidation." Source: http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/6/1239 The body makes palmitic acid (an SFA) and also oleic acid, which can then be made into Mead acid (not to get too technical). In light of hundreds of these kinds of molecular level experiments, it is remarkable that anyone would suggest that allowing the human body to make its own PUFA, the Mead acid, is the most intelligent thing a person can do for long-term health.
If anyone feels that the evidence for omega 6 and 3 "essentiality" is incontrovertible, then you have a responsibility to those people who you think are being "misled" by me to take me up on my offer and demonstrate the flaws in my reasoning. I am willing to put up as much as $50,000 of my own money to demonstrated the correctness of my thinking, but no one among the many critics are willing to put up a few thousand dollars of their own money. I'm not suggesting anything strange, just a verification of the 1930 Burr & Burr experiment, but done with proper scientific controls. Most non-scientists believe that verification experiments are done routinely, and yet the opposite is often the case, and instead what happens is that a dogma gets established that is based upon flawed experimental designs, incomplete knowledge, or incorrect assumptions. If anyone wants to contact Enig and propose my offer, I would appreciate it. I tried to contact her via her email address at least twice over the last several years but got no response, and I only asked a question that one would think is within her field of "expertise." I did not make any experimental offers to her.
If you make a claim that you want to be regarded as scientific, then you must subject it to the scientific method. This method requires that your claim is always true, every time confirmatory experiments are conducted. In the case of "essential fatty acids" and pregnant animals, some offspring did survive, which means the essential fatty acid is incorrect, and that it is likely a matter of a threshold of biochemical activity being required for the quick growth that a fetus needs. The way to know for sure is to do the experiment that I suggested, with mice fed fresh coconut oil, that are then fed to pregnant mice (allowing the cats to eat as many mice as they want, or whatever parts of the mice they choose). In fact, such an experiment might show that there is an equivalency (at least in pregnant cats); for example, 1 arachidonic fatty acid may be equivalent to 5 Mead fatty acids, in terms of the biochemical activity involved in fetal development. Why anyone would attack such basic, sensible, intellectually consistent, and scientifically necessary criticisms and proposals is incomprehensible, and implies gross incompetence, conflicts of interest, "low self esteem," or "knee jerk reactions" that demonstrate psychological instability (and I've known a few professors who fit this description very well) in a mistaken desire to "defend" one's "turf" and save the "ignorant masses."
montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:21 GMT Correction: "don't eat too much" should be "eat too much."
montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:23 GMT Ignore the "correction."
joshv - 20 Sep 2005 23:45 GMT > Ignore the "correction." How about we just ignore you entirely?
montygram - 21 Sep 2005 02:15 GMT You do so at your own risk, but this NG is about science, so how about addressing what I am saying scientifically? Do you have a problem with this point, or would you like to argue about that too?
joshv - 21 Sep 2005 04:51 GMT I've addressed you and your proposed "scientific" experiment previously. I was ignored. I asked the same questions you would have to answer in any grant proposal to get research funds to conduct such a study. These are the sorts of questions that people who fund *real* scientific research want answered before they spend their precious funds.
Please answer the questions I posed about your study in the following post:
http://tinyurl.com/dbenp
Until you do, please stop harping on how nobody on this ng has the guts to fund your study. More like people have the smarts not to waste their money.
> You do so at your own risk, but this NG is about science, so how about > addressing what I am saying scientifically? Do you have a problem with > this point, or would you like to argue about that too? Robert - 21 Sep 2005 07:00 GMT > > Ignore the "correction." > > How about we just ignore you entirely? Good point.
Matti Narkia - 27 Sep 2005 23:46 GMT Here's a concise EFA bibliography to advance "montygram"'s virtually nonexistent knowledge about the topic:
Burr G. O., Burr M. M. A new deficiency disease produced by the rigid exclusion of fat from the diet. J. Biol. Chem. 1929; 82:345-367 <http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/82/2/345>
Burr G. O., Burr M. M. The nature and role of the fatty acids essential in nutrition. J. Biol. Chem. 1930; 86:587-621 <http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/86/2/587>
Holman RT, Johnson SB, Hatch TF. A case of human linolenic acid deficiency involving neurological abnormalities. Am J Clin Nutr. 1982 Mar;35(3):617-23. PMID: 6801965 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=6 801965&dopt=Abstract>
Abstract:
"A 6-yr-old girl who lost 300 cm of intestine was maintained by total parenteral nutrition. After 5 months on a preparation rich in linoleic acid but low in linolenic acid she experienced episodes of numbness, paresthesia, weakness, inability to walk, pain in the legs, and blurring of vision. Diagnostic analysis of fatty acids of serum lipids revealed marginal linoleate deficiency and significant deficiency of linolenate. When the regimen was changed to emulsion containing linolenic acid neurological symptoms disappeared. Analysis indicated that linoleate deficiency had worsened but linolenate deficiency had been corrected. The requirement for linolenic acid is estimated to be about 0.54% of calories."
Bourre JM, Piciotti M, Dumont O, Pascal G, Durand G. Dietary linoleic acid and polyunsaturated fatty acids in rat brain and other organs. Minimal requirements of linoleic acid. Lipids. 1990 Aug;25(8):465-72. PMID: 2120529 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2 120529&dopt=Abstract>
Cunnane SC, Anderson MJ. Pure linoleate deficiency in the rat: influence on growth, accumulation of n-6 polyunsaturates, and [1-14C]linoleate oxidation. J Lipid Res. 1997 Apr;38(4):805-12. PMID: 9144095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/2/446>
Holman RT. The slow discovery of the importance of omega 3 essential fatty acids in human health. J Nutr. 1998 Feb;128(2 Suppl):427S-433S. Review. PMID: 9478042 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/2/427S>
Abstract:
"Although linoleic and linolenic acids have been known to be necessary for normal growth and dermal function since 1930, the omega 3 essential fatty acids (EFA) have not received much attention until recently. The two families of acids are metabolized by the same enzymes, making them competitive. Gross deficiencies of omega 6 plus omega 3 EFA have been observed in humans, induced by attempts at total parenteral nutrition (TPN) with preparations devoid of lipids. Deficiency of omega 3 acids has been induced by TPN containing high omega 6 and low omega 3 fatty acids. In natural human populations, a wide range of omega 3 and omega 6 proportions have been found, ranging from high omega 3 and low omega 6 content to low omega 3 and high omega 6 content, showing inverse correlation between sigma omega 6 and sigma omega 3. In humans with neuropathy or impairment of the immune system, significant deficits of omega 3 EFA have been measured."
Cunnane SC. The long history of essential fatty acids but belated knowledge about linoleate deficiency per se: a paradox. J Nutr. 1999 Feb;129(2):446. PMID: 10024625 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/2/446>
 Signature Matti Narkia
Matti Narkia - 28 Sep 2005 00:04 GMT Here's an interesting result: according to the abstract
Cunnane SC, Ryan MA, Craig KS, Brookes S, Koletzko B, Demmelmair H, Singer J, Kyle DJ. Synthesis of linoleate and alpha-linolenate by chain elongation in the rat. Lipids. 1995 Aug;30(8):781-3. PMID: 7475996 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=7475996>
rats and probably humans can synthetize a small proportion of their total body content of omega-6 linoleic acid and omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid from omega-6 hexadecadienoate (16:2n-6) and omega-3 hexadecatrienoate (16:3n-3), respectively, which are present in small amounts in green leafy vegetables common in the human diet.
 Signature Matti Narkia
montygram - 28 Sep 2005 01:36 GMT Other points worth considering by those with an open mind:
The studies Matti Narkia cites demonstrate my point, as they are either claims made without actual experiments being done, anecdotal cases of very ill or badly injured people (and there are only a handful of such cases in the entire scientific literature), comparisons of fat free diets with ones that contain omega 6s and or 3s (instead of comparing fresh coconut oil to omega 3s and 6s), have an "endpoint" as something other than mortality (which is what most people are interested in, not "signs" of "deficiency" which are most likely signs of researcher bias, and not something we can verify without doing another, properly controlled study), or are not on point, such as the following (cited by Narkia, above):
"Starting three weeks before mating, 12 groups of female rats were fed different amounts of linoleic acid (18:2n-6). Their male pups were killed when 21-days-old. Varying the dietary 18:2n-6 content between 150 and 6200 mg/100 g food intake had the following results. Linoleic acid levels remained very low in brain, myelin, synaptosomes, and retina. In contrast, 18:2n-6 levels increased in sciatic nerve. In heart, linoleic acid levels were high, but were not related to dietary linoleic acid intake. Levels of 18:2n-6 were significantly increased in liver, lung, kidney, and testicle and were even higher in muscle and adipose tissue. On the other hand, in heart a constant amount of 18:2n-6 was found at a low level of dietary 18:2n-6. Constant levels of arachidonic acid (20:4n-6) were reached at 150 mg/100 g diet in all nerve structures, and at 300 mg/100 g diet in testicle and muscle, at 800 mg/100 g diet in kidney, and at 1200 mg/100 g diet in liver, lung, and heart. Constant adrenic acid (22:4n-6) levels were obtained at 150, 900, and 1200 mg/100 g diet in myelin, sciatic nerve, and brain, respectively. Minimal levels were difficult to determine. In all fractions examined accumulation of docosapentaenoic acid (22:5n-6) was the most direct and specific consequence of increasing amounts of dietary 18:2n-6. Tissue eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and 22:5n-3 levels were relatively independent of dietary 18:2n-6 intake, except in lung, liver, and kidney. In several organs (muscle, lung, kidney, liver, heart) as well as in myelin, very low levels of dietary linoleic acid led to an increase in 20:5n-3.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)"
What in the world is this supposed to tell us, Mattia? It is useless information. We need to know if animals are healthier and live longer with very low amounts of unsaturated fatty acids but with reasonable amounts (15-30% of calories) of saturated fatty acids. This does nothing to address this question. Do you realize that?
My critics on this newsgroup never respond to the points I make about studies they "believe in" (except to point out that Burr & Burr - 1930 is old and out of date and I agree, but I am not citing it, the "professional nutritionists" are, and the science of nutrition is what this newsgroup is supposed to be about), and act as if all the evidence I have presented over the years does not exist. In scholarship, you have a responsibility to address all the points those who oppose your notions make. I do this, not only out of my sense of scholarly ethics, but also because I want to know what the scientific reality is. If omega 3 and 6 PUFAs should be consumed in huge amounts every day, I want to know that, but the evidence at this point in history indicates that the opposite is the case.
At any time in history, two hypotheses can coexist, but only one can be accurate (and both may be inaccurate, though one must be better than the other). In this case, the experiments my critics (for example, Enig, who is on the record against the idea that Mead acid is best) cite prove my point (and I don't use the word prove lightly) because if the claim is that omega 3 and 6 PUFAs are absolutely essential (and that is undeniably the claim), and yet pregnant animals (and they need more biochemical activity than non-pregnant adults) can have healthy offspring, then this "essentiality" claim has been absolutely proven false. A law of nature does not work once in while, or 80% of the time - any violation means it is not correct. Instead, my claim about PUFAs aiding the body in times when extra biochemical activity is needed is the only claim that makes any sense at this point in time. Fresh coconut oil probably represents the upper limit of what a pregnant animal needs, in terms of unsaturated fatty acids (coconut is 8% unsaturated), but even with 100% saturated HCO, some animals had no problems. The EFA claim must be abandoned or else the scientific method will be.
Perhaps the most important thing is what the practical implications are. The National Research Council concluded more than a decade ago that the amount of omega 3 and 6s ingested in nations like the USA surpass the threshold for causing the "common cancers, and the evidence bears this out. Nothing has contradicted their finding to date. Arguing that fresh coconut oil (with 2% omega 6s and 0% omega 3s) will satisfy one's "essential fatty acids needs" means that for all practical purposes one only needs to avoid living exclusively on processed food that is designated "no fat," and if that is so, then let's say that - it is something we could all probably agree on. But the more urgent message is that excess omega 3 and 6 PUFA consumption means that we increase our chances of acquiring a "chronic disease" greatly, and our life expectancies will be shortened, perhaps considerably (depending upon other factors, such as the amount and kinds of antioxidants in the diet).
Calling someone "deranged" or "disturbed" because he or she closely examines scientific evidence and does not accept dogma unless there is sufficient evidence to support it demonstrates (to me) a severe psychological disorder, but that is not a topic for this newsgroup. I am going to remain focused on the science of the issue, regardless of the non-scientific attacks you are making against someone you don't know at all.
To those who do not like my experimental offer - go ahead and suggest your own. As long as you are willing to pay if you are wrong, we can negotiate the details. The key point I am making is that consuming oils like canola, flax, and fish will mean that you will live a much shorter life than if your only major fat source is fresh coconut oil. I have cited experiments in which rats fed corn oil have much higher rates of cancer and diet much sooner than control rats, so I have confidence in my position. You can't call my experiments "stupid" in conception because scientists have already done them (unless you are calling all of them stupid, which makes no sense because you cite the same kinds of experiments), and that is why I am willing to put my own money on the line. It is a trap. But I have a feeling that one of you is foolish enough to fall into it. You cite studies that show "deficiency symptoms" or "less inflammation" which could all be due to the researcher's bias, but I agree that if you load an animal up with corn oil, then give it fish oil, you will see less "inflammation," but with Mead acid, there never is any inflammation to begin with, so the fish oil is unnecessary. That is my claim. Are you suggesting that there is no way to design an experiment to test it? If so, you probably need remedial education in the sciences, but go ahead and explain why. It should be interesting, to say the least. However, since I am willing to put my own money up, why should you care? Go ahead and demonstrate that I am wrong and cost me thousands of dollars.
I am still waiting...
Mirek Fidler - 21 Sep 2005 20:07 GMT > [then where are all the dead people who didn't consume > omega 3s in decades, such as my relatives who lived to be 100, or are > still alive and in their 90s? OMG, not this argument once again....
Mirek
montygram - 21 Sep 2005 22:33 GMT Yes, Mirek the truth hurts when you are on the wrong side of it, doesn't it?
As to JoshV:
I read your link, and saw no citations. You say "97 studies find a decrease in mortality," and yet you can't cite one. This is ridiculous. I am objective. If there is one such study, I want to see it. Whenever I have examined such "studies" closely, they never demonstrate what they claim to, just as Enig and others have pointed out about the "cholesterol is bad" studies. I'm willing to engage in the scientific debate, but you have to cite some actual evidence, as I always do. And when it is pointed out that the claims of the researchers do not match the actual results, or when it is pointed out that the study was flawed, you have to address that, not try and deflect attention with some tangential thing, like a typogrphical error.
The 1930 experiment is Burr & Burr, and it is still being cited in professional nutritional literature, as I have cited here many times. If they are citing it, and nothing else, and if they are the "experts," then that must be addressed, and so I addressed it. But I also addressed similar experiments done over the last few years. Did you even read the post? Why can't you respond to the points I made directly. Point out where I am wrong and explain why. Nobody ever does this, which leads me to conclude that they just want to defend the current dogma, for whatever reason.
As I've said time and again, fish oil will interfere with AA metabolization, which is basically the same thing as "inflammation" (on the Mead acid, I get hardly anything like inflammation when I get a cut), but as scientists have pointed out (I've cited the conclusions of the NRC from 15 years ago, for example) it is too dangerous to consume the amount of fish oil you would need to in order to control AA metabolization. Creating a monster to kill a monster usually just means you have two monsters to deal with instead of one, and that is the case here as well. I've cited studies that have shown that this is only a temporary effect anyway. Where is your evidence?
And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are both "essential." What is clear is that they may indeed work well in emergency medicine, but not for anything else, unless you believe in "chemotherapy" for cancer, in which case fish oil is very good at killing cells, even highly resistant cancer cells.
As to the experiment, as long as you and I agree on the terms, who cares what anyone else thinks. I am asking you to put your money where your mouth is. Do not waste the taxpayers money any more. If you think I am wrong, you should be more than willing to take me up on my offer. I am confident that we can agree on terms. If you do not have much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50 cents each. I would be very surprised if the experiment cost more than a couple of hundred dollars, and at some point I will likely do the experiment myself (when I have more time), because it's clear now that everyone here realizes what will happen, and they don't want to pay AND look foolish.
You can't say that my experiment is ridiculous because these are the experiments that have been used to justify consuming large amounts of very dangerous substances since 1930 - they use rats, cats, mice, etc.
So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be, start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean. Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means. If you don't understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why are you posting here. Just cite the abstract. As least that ironjustice guy usually cites the abstracts will little or no commentary, because he admits that he doesn't really understand exactly where iron fits in, though I've explained it to him in great detail.
I am showing people how they are being conned with the "essential fatty acid" nonsense, the "high cholesterol" nonsense, the "saturated fat is bad" nonsense, etc. The evidence is now available down to the molecular level, for example, in the Spiteller abstract I've cited several times, and it is clear that the "experts" who tell provide us with these mantras do not understand the issues scientifically. They have invented a language of "markers," "endpoints," and "associations" which allows them to come to whatever conclusions they like. They sometimes even change the "endpoint" when the results contradict what they had hoped the results would be. Now that molecular level mechanisms are known, they can't get away with that any longer - if people understand it. And that is what I am trying to do here, namely, to point out how the shell game is played, and to show people what the scientific reality appears to be.
So, unless you are a poor man, there is no reason for you not to begin negotiations with me on how are experiment will be conducted.
I am waiting...
MattLB - 22 Sep 2005 10:50 GMT > So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be, > start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean. > Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means. If you don't > understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why > are you posting here. Your ability to condemn others of doing precisely what you do, seemingly without realising your delusion, is amazing.
You always end up crawling back to "Read what Gilbert Ling says", or "Look at Ray Peat's newsletter" because you've failed to ever explain why what you say is right and what everyone else says is wrong. You've never managed to come up with a model of red cell ghosts that doesn't involve a lipid bilayer, for instance and you've never tried to explain what causes the dry skin and premature death in people with EFA deficiency. Since you claim it's not the EFA deficiency, what is it?
Just parroting your "overwhelming evidence" and "type arachidonic into PubMed" comments over and over again is lazy and doesn't require any understanding of the biochemistry involved.
MattLB
Mirek Fidler - 22 Sep 2005 21:14 GMT > Yes, Mirek the truth hurts when you are on the wrong side of it, > doesn't it? Ever heard about problems with "anecdotal evidence" ?
Mirek
montygram - 22 Sep 2005 21:33 GMT Gilbert Ling did the experiment for the "ghosts." I quoted him on it, and gave the citation. As I said, present the evidence and I'll examine it. Otherwise, you will be ignored. Ling is willing to debate anyone who can set up a standard debate. You claim to have scientific credentials, so he will debate you. Go to his web site, www.gilbertling.org and email him.
Yes, Mirek, but a deficiency must occur, or else there can't be essentiality. This is science. If a hypothesis fails to explain something it must be discarded or modified significantly. If you are correct, I should be experiencing "EFAD," but I am healthier now than ever. If I stopped ingesting vitamin C, what would happen within a fairly short period of time? What would my health be like 4 years later? You must be intelligent enough to see the logical inconsistency in your argument, or are you that deluded?
The experiments that supposedly showed "EFA essentiality" are worse than anecdotal - they are terribly flawed, in many ways. Aside from what I've mentioned before, how can you claim that signs of vitamin A deficiency (the skin problems, for example), which you would expect on the fat free diet given to the rats by Burr (since vitamin A is fat soluble), are actually signs of "EFA deficiency?" It was not a properly controlled experiment. Why can't you see that? You and the others never address this, but assume that flawed experiments should be taken as gospel. Could you explain why?
I propose to do it correctly, to see if Burr's conclusions are accurate, yet nobody has enough faith in their results to take me up on my offer. You will make me pay AND admit I'm wrong if you are correct, so the only reason not to take me up on my offer is that YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE WRONG!
montygram - 23 Sep 2005 01:44 GMT As to MattLB's obsession with ghosts (though he does not explain what his position is and exactly what the evidence is to support his position), Ling has addressed what I think is MattLB's point at least as early as 1984, in "In Search of the Physical Basis of Life:"
"Evidence that contradicts the notion that the red blood cell is a hollow membrane vesicle came from Eric Ponder, who in 1948 published his authoritative monograph 'Hemolysis and Related Phenomena.' Three years later Ponder (1951) published an article specifically addressed to the problem described in its title, 'Is the Red Cell Ghost Solid or Hollow?' His test consisted of measuring the volume of red cell ghosts before and after their fragmentation. If the ghosts are hollow, he reasoned, the fragments will occupy less volume; if they are solid the fragments will retain the same volume. His results showed no change in volume, leading Ponder to the conclusion that red cell ghosts are solid.
With these past finding in the background, how, may one ask, did the red cell ghost become in recent years almost synonymous with pure red cell membrane? As one among many examples, I point out that in Volume 31 of 'Methods in Enzymology' the section title reads 'The Preparation of Red Cell Ghost (Membranes).' This parenthetical equation is echoed in another statement, 'In preparative method described here, the membranes (ghosts) are observed through the use of osmotic lysis' (Hanahan and Ekholm, 1974). Clearly the authors, like many others of the time, expressed without equivocation the belief that membranes and ghosts are identical. But then how can the ghost be at once solid and hollow?" Page 129.
But you, MattLB, won't even address obvious contradictions that make what I assusme your position is (because you are not stating exactly what it is) a physical impossibility, that is, cells can be stripped of the fatty acid that are clinging to the outside, and yet the cells hold together very nicely.
Your inability to understand basic scientific, unfortunately, is all too common these days, as one see from all the promises that lead to nothing, all the predictions that never pan out, and all the "diseases" that don't get cured.
MattLB - 23 Sep 2005 12:13 GMT > As to MattLB's obsession with ghosts (though he does not explain what > his position is and exactly what the evidence is to support his > position), Ling has addressed what I think is MattLB's point at least > as early as 1984, in "In Search of the Physical Basis of Life:" LOL. You couldn't have proved my point about deferring to others more perfectly.
As for my position, your omega3-deficient brain's letting you down again. I've already addressed your citation: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/46b3c7ad57d9bf97?hl=en&
> With these past finding in the background, how, may one ask, did the > red cell ghost become in recent years almost synonymous with pure red > cell membrane? Because that's what it is.
> But you, MattLB, won't even address obvious contradictions You mean you don't remember me already addressing them. There's a difference.
> that make > what I assusme your position is (because you are not stating exactly > what it is) a physical impossibility, that is, cells can be stripped of > the fatty acid that are clinging to the outside, and yet the cells hold > together very nicely. Fatty acids clinging to the outside? By what mechanism? What cells did you have in mind that hold together very nicely? Now a good time to substantiate your claim about always proving citations for what you say.
> Your inability to understand basic scientific, Is there a word missing or should it be "science"? Maybe if you proofread a bit more there'd be less of a problem understanding what you're trying to say.
MattLB
Mirek Fidler - 23 Sep 2005 19:49 GMT My dear Monty,
actually, I feel unqualified to comment most of your claims.
Only thing that bothers me and makes them somewhat suspicious that in each post you do not forget to mention your grandparents as the evidence supporting your theories.
Mirek
joshv - 24 Sep 2005 12:42 GMT > As to JoshV: > > I read your link, and saw no citations. You say "97 studies find a > decrease in mortality," and yet you can't cite one. In the thread I linked to, YOU cut and pasted the summary of the review into your response. Here, I'll copy the text YOU posted:
"Arch Intern Med. 2005 Apr 11;165(7):725-30.
Effect of different antilipidemic agents and diets on mortality: a systematic review. "
If you want the citations for the 97 studies, I'd imagine they are in the full-text of the review article.
If you were serious about your "experiment", you would have looked up all these studies on your own, and systematically explained to your prospective funding sources why you feel these studies are incorrect or deficient. Instead you make general, hand-waiving claims about how all such studies are wrong.
> This is > ridiculous. I am objective. If there is one such study, I want to see > it. Then look them up.
> Whenever I have examined such "studies" closely, they never > demonstrate what they claim to, just as Enig and others have pointed > out about the "cholesterol is bad" studies. Enig et al. directly address specific studies. I can find their arguments, find the original articles, and judge for myself. You on the other hand make general claims that say essentially "Enig found cholesterol studies to be lacking, therefore my lazy a.s is going to assume that all research I disagree with is bad". Strange that you want to agree with Enig only when convenient. I thought this thread was about how Enig was wrong.
> I'm willing to engage in > the scientific debate, but you have to cite some actual evidence, as I > always do. No you don't, and I have consistently responded with citations. There is one at the top of this article. Read it, read the studies it reviews, and get back to me.
> And when it is pointed out that the claims of the > researchers do not match the actual results, or when it is pointed out > that the study was flawed, you have to address that, not try and > deflect attention with some tangential thing, like a typogrphical > error. Please, do make a specific claim as to the deficiencies of a specific study and I will adress it.
> The 1930 experiment is Burr & Burr, and it is still being cited in > professional nutritional literature, as I have cited here many times. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > does this, which leads me to conclude that they just want to defend the > current dogma, for whatever reason. I have responded directly to your claims on many occasions.
> As I've said time and again, fish oil will interfere with AA > metabolization, which is basically the same thing as "inflammation" (on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the case here as well. I've cited studies that have shown that this is > only a temporary effect anyway. Where is your evidence? Evidence of what? I have only ever refuted your claim that EFAs are harmful. You are the one making the claim, you are the one required to provide the evidence.
You have also utterly failed to address why some of the longest lived populations on the planet have the highest fish intake. How is this consistent with your hypothesis?
> And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are > both "essential." What is clear is that they may indeed work well in > emergency medicine, but not for anything else, unless you believe in > "chemotherapy" for cancer, in which case fish oil is very good at > killing cells, even highly resistant cancer cells. As has been pointed out to you on many occasions, this is in a petri dish. The internals of the human body are quite different.
> As to the experiment, as long as you and I agree on the terms, who > cares what anyone else thinks. I am asking you to put your money where > your mouth is. Do not waste the taxpayers money any more. If you > think I am wrong, you should be more than willing to take me up on my > offer. I have no idea what your offer consists of. I've read your vague experiment and have no idea what it's trying to prove. I've asked you a number of detailed questions about this experiment, which you have utterly failed to answer. Please do so.
Here are some questions for you that would would be asked by anyone who was serious about funding your 'study': - Which animals do we use? Mice? Dogs? Sea Lions? Seals? Monkeys? The results will vary radically. If you have picked a particular animal, why? Please detail how you feel that this animal's fat metabolism closely resembles that of a human. - How much do we force feed them? I imagine any dietary component, force fed will cause harm, sugar and protein included. I don't force feed myself fish-oil, I take two gel caps a day. I don't think the ADHD study that started this thread studied children who were force fed omega-3s. - Why are you 'force-feeding'? If you want to see if omega-3 supplementation is harmful in humans, wouldn't it be better to scale a supplement dosage to the animal's size? - Can you cite any in-vivo studies that even suggest the outcome you appear to expect? "I would be surprised if the mice being forced to eat the fish oil lived half of their average life expectancy." Your "surprise" is not enough. Any person funding this study would need some evidence that the expected outcome is vaguely probable. - Given you are force feeding fish oil, which is highly caloric, how will you control for the adverse effects of the hypercaloric diet these animals will be on? - How long will this study last? - What facilities will you need? - What staff will you need? - How much money do you estimate all of this will cost? - Have you thoroughly research the full-text of human studies on consumption of omega-3 and health benefit/detriment? Please detail why you feel these studies are lacking, why a non-human model is preferable to a human, and what new evidence the results of this study will give to direct dietary advice given that there are very few humans "force feeding" themselves on massive quantities of fish oil.
If you cannot answer all of these questions in detail, no one will take you seriously for a grant - myself included (and I guarantee you, I don't have 1/100 the funds required to run such a study).
> I am confident that we can agree on terms. If you do not have > much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50 > cents each. Wow. You really are naive. Do you image the cost of the mice themselves is even a minor fraction of the cost of such a study? You need a facility to house the mice. You need people to feed and care for the mice. You need people to gather data in a controlled and scientific manner.
> I would be very surprised if the experiment cost more than > a couple of hundred dollars, and at some point I will likely do the > experiment myself (when I have more time), because it's clear now that > everyone here realizes what will happen, and they don't want to pay AND > look foolish. Please, post a detailed list of the expenses you forsee in undertaking this experiment, if it totals only a few hundred dollars, I am sure we can take up a collection among your debunkers and send you the money. It will be wasted, because you will never be able to conduct such a study for so little money.
I personally have no idea what will happen in your study, because I don't understand what you are trying to prove, nor do I understand how your study as defined, could possibly control for the affect you are looking for.
> You can't say that my experiment is ridiculous because these are the > experiments that have been used to justify consuming large amounts of > very dangerous substances since 1930 - they use rats, cats, mice, etc. I don't defend these old studies. The 97 study review I posted reviewed HUMAN mortality data.
> So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be, > start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean. I have. You ignore it.
> Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means. If you don't > understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why > are you posting here. Just cite the abstract. I have.
> As least that > ironjustice guy usually cites the abstracts will little or no [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have invented a language of "markers," "endpoints," and "associations" > which allows them to come to whatever conclusions they like. In the end, human mortality is all that matters, and the review I've cited has found no evidence of any negative effects of EFAs on human mortality. Let me repeat, you will NOT die sooner from consumption of EFAs. So your claim is utterly baseless. I don't care what speculative EFA molecular chemistry you claim harms human beings, the data shows no harmful effects on human mortality, in fact the opposite is true.
> They > sometimes even change the "endpoint" when the results contradict what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to point out how the shell game is played, and to show people what the > scientific reality appears to be.
> So, unless you are a poor man, there is no reason for you not to begin > negotiations with me on how are experiment will be conducted. > > I am waiting... I am waiting for the answers to my questions.
MMu - 27 Sep 2005 16:14 GMT >> This is >> ridiculous. I am objective. If there is one such study, I want to see >> it. > > Then look them up. montygram has a very serious issue with that 1930's study. he thinks that research has stopped in the 30's and there has no study been published until now.. its really amazing how he constantly preaches how he is able to use pubmed to find.. well, whatever he thinks prooves his point, but is acting hysterically blind to any research done on fish oil.
>> And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are >> both "essential." Another classic example of a statement by someone without any idea of biochemistry.
>> I am confident that we can agree on terms. If you do not have >> much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for the mice. You need people to gather data in a controlled and > scientific manner. I told him that so many times.. but good old monty believes that all you need is the animals and they will somehow take care of the study themselves.. its really amazing that this guy seriously tries to preach to others about "scientific method" when its more than obvious he is absolutely clueless when it comes to planning an experiment even in the most simple form.
montygram - 27 Sep 2005 22:26 GMT Let's be clear about your positions:
1. Is there "rapid turnover of DHA in the human brain," as "EFA experts" claim, or not? If so, how do people who do not consume flax, oily fish, canola, etc. get enough DHA? Does it magically appear somehow? How am I getting enough of this DHA? If a person like myself, who avoids all sources of omega 3 PUFAs, is getting enough, why would anyone need to tell the general public that they need to supplement with flax, fish oil, etc? I am asking a scientific question, but you are not providing a scientific explanation, nor any on point experimental data to support it.
2. If you think that any experiment I propose is flawed, then this must mean that Burr & Burr is flawed, yes or no? If so, then you must also conclude that a correctly designed experiment needs to be conducted now in order to put this claim to the test, yes or no? I am only saying that if Burr and Burr were repeated, except using fresh coconut oil instead of no fat at all, then we would know if fat is essential, or if specific fatty acid moleclues are. You have not explained why this is an unscientific idea. Until you do, the only reasonable conclusion is that you are deluded (for whatever reason) or are industry shills (perhaps both).
3. I am not citing the 1930, but the professional nutritional literaure is. When they stop citing it and instead cite another study, I will then examine that study. You are correct, in a sense, in that the evidence since 1930 demonstrates that omega 3 and 6 PUFAs are very dangerous, especially in how they are consumed in Western nations. The proponents of the "EFA" claim point to Burr & Burr (1930), not me, but I can only examine what they put forth to suppor their claims. Otherwise, I have presented dozens if not hundreds of studies that support my claims. You have placed the cart before an invisible horse here.
4. What is the "EFA deficiency produced in animals?" It is the same as B6 deficiency, which was not known in 1930. And how are fat soluble vitamins going to be absorbed on a totally no fat diet? Why won't you address these basic points? Again, you must be psychologically deranged (from too much arachidonic acid in your body) or else you are industry shills (how do you like it when someone makes such claims about you?).
5. My experiment offer is not at all vague - it is a repeat of Burr & Burr (1930) with one substitution. If you cannot understand that, then you are beyond science - you need remedial education. But the question you all need to answer is: if I can puposely avoid omega 3 and 6 PUFA, with the exception of the tiny amount of omega 6s in things like coconut, then why should anyone take supplements? This is a basic question that everyone can understand, and yet you won't address it.
So who will take me up on my offer to repeat Burr & Burr, substituting fresh coconut oil for no fat, and accepting overall mortality as the "endpoint?"
Again, I am waiting...
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Sep 2005 01:39 GMT > "A Reply to Ray Peat > on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency" [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Mead acid. And why can't she cite one on point experiment that is > not terribly flawed?] COMMENT:
What part of "they exist in virtually all foods" was it that you didn't understand, Monty?
Who are these people who you think supposedly didn't consume omega-3 EFAs in "decades," ---- and how did they manage THAT? They would need to subsist entirely on coconut oil as their ONLY fat to do this, to have a prayer of going about it with any kind of natural diet (since coconut oil is the only oil I can find which has w-3 levels too low to measure), and I can't imagine how these people you're talking about, would even begin to make up a diet where the ONLY fat is coconut oil.
What would the rest of their diet be like? It would have to be semi-synthetic, consisting of vitamins, minerals, cellulose, separated protein like casein (and de-fatted protein as well), and be free of all plant matter. Are we to assume that's how YOU'VE been living? Eating that kind of diet? If not, you've been getting w-3 with the rest of your plant oils.
Even palm oil has a trace of w-3 in it, so I'm not beting than coconut has absolutely none. And coconut is 2% w-6, which is probably enough to keep you from w-6 deficiency right there.
In any case, unless your ancestors lived on semi-synthetic diets in which ALL fat had been relentlessly replaced by coconut oil, I don't think we safetly conclude they should have suffered from classical EFA w-3 deficiency. And as I said before, if your grandma was sneaking walnuts occasionally, all bets are off.
SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Sep 2005 06:58 GMT > Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by > feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > a strong inhibitor of what is truly needed in pregnant animals, that > is, biochemical activity. COMMENT:
Hydrogenated coconut oil is used in order to induce w-6 and w-3 deficiency at the same time. Something that shouldn't bother you, since you think neither of them is essential for adult animals.
But in the dog experiment already cited, the very unusual atherosclerotic processes induced in the EFA deficient animals were prevented by feeding them just a little PUFA containing vegetable oil ADDED to their hydrogenated coconut oil atherogenic diet. That pretty much destroys all hypothesizing about nickel or some toxin in hydrogenated coconut oil. You don't get rid of all effects of a toxin by adding a little EFA. You can only demonstrate *deficiency* of some vital nutrient by showing that the effects go away by simple *addition* of the vital ingredient to the diet.
Unless you'd like to argue that there's some undiscovered chemical in small amounts of PUFA vegetable oil that is essential to dogs, but IS NOT essential fatty acid(s)? This really would be rich.
SBH
George Cherry - 24 Sep 2005 18:42 GMT >> Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by >> feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > small amounts of PUFA vegetable oil that is essential to dogs, but IS > NOT essential fatty acid(s)? This really would be rich. Dammit, how many answers do you have to give to get this guy over his delusions about EFAs?
George
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 25 Sep 2005 09:14 GMT > >> Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by > >> feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > George COMMENT:
Apparently there are no limits. He has what is known in the trades as an idee fixe or a fixed delusion, and there's no arguing with it. He thinks his grandparents never got any w-3, even though we know what's essentially impossible unless they were on hyper-al, and he thinks the various animal experiments which produced EFA deficiency in animals and cells are due to some wierd toxicity of hydrogenated coconut oil, even though the weird toxicity is ameliorated as completely as symptoms of scury, when you add a teaspoon of lime juice a day. Which should tell even the doltest of dolts that there's something essential in the lime juice. And in this case, since our lime juice is PUFA containing plant oils, draw your own conflusions. They work on cells in dishes, too, dying not because their fats are hydrogenated coconut oil, but because they've been given no fat at all. They make mead acid, but it doesn't save them. PUFAs do. Monty ignores this.
Monty can't think, is the problem. He is unable to inductively reason about this subject. Playfully, I hypothesize that it's because his brain is apparently a bit short of needed best amounts of EFAs, so it doesn't work optimally. It's a sort of chicken and egg problem, really, to get him to realize the problem. He can't get his brain to work till he takes EFAs, and until his brain works, he won't take EFAs. I think if somebody just spiked his diet with Canola for a month, he'd be a new man. Certainly a less mechanical one. At the moment I'm beginning to wonder if EFA deficient people really pass the Turing test.
SBH
ChloeC - 01 Aug 2009 00:25 GMT Well, I think you did a wonderful job deciphering Enig's article. I'm no scientist; but I definitely get what you're saying about how it's an illusion that the things supposedly caused by an "EFA" deficiency are most likely from other things (like Vitamin A, as you had mentioned) not presented in a study.
I find it interesting that people do eat unsaturated fats and live long - but, there are most likely other factors in their diets. Doesn't vitamin E play a large role in a diet, such as if unsaturated fats will remain in the system or not? Surely there is more logic behind these explanations. Including metabolic rate and thyroid function in conjunction to that..as well as any other vitamin and mineral's effects and even lifestyle factors. I mean, people must live long for the basic reasoning that they don't have unsaturated lipids in them, and they do have good hormonal balance..thyroid function..etc. if not, probably catching some disease and getting treated with machines and medications to keep them alive.
Anyway..I want to condone you for this. I've just started to get into Ray Peat's philosophy and really take his advice with diet. I'm hoping for good results, as it's the most logic I've seen on diet yet. I admire the philosophy behind hormones and thyroid. Thanks
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