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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2009

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Enig vs. Peat - "EFAs" vs. Mead Acid: The Debate.

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montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:15 GMT
Copy and paste this one into your word processing software and save it.
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On the Weston Price web site
(http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/essentialfattyaciddef.html )
we are presented with an essay by "fatty acid expert" Mary Enig,
who disputes the proposal that Mead acid is what nature intended for
organisms like humans, contradicting biochemist Ray Peat's view that
omega 3s and 6s are basically "nothing but trouble," to put it
colloquially.   Interestingly, she speaks in the tone of an authority
figure who is not to be questioned, and cites no evidence, though she
has criticized other scientists for doing the exact same things.  For
example, in Science 2002 295: 1464-1465, there is the following
statement:

"IN HIS LETTER ABOUT THE ARTICLE "THE
soft science of dietary fat" (News Focus,
G. Taubes, 30 Mar. 2001, p. 2536), Scott
M. Grundy says that saturated fatty acids
(SFA) are the main dietary cause of coronary
heart disease (CHD) ("Dietary fat: at
the heart of the matter," 3 Aug., p. 801),
and he cites two reviews in support (1, 2).
In one of the reviews, there are no references
(1); in the other, of which Grundy is a
co-author, most of the references do not appear
to be supportive of his statement."

I must admit that though she has done much good work (for example, her
book on "traditional diets" and her essay on canola oil were
excellent, though of course I don't agree with everything she says),
and until now I just thought she was simply unfamiliar with the
literature (which she may be), there is something else.  There is an
arrogance, which is fine with me, if she is willing to think clearly
and address the relevant evidence.  Since she does not, there is
nothing but the arrogance and a load of misleading statements; this is
an example of "establishment science" at its worst.  I have lost a
great deal of  respect for her, intellectually (I don't know her
personally).  She fought the "good fight" against the
anti-cholesterol crowd, but now it seems that her ignorance of general
biochemical principles has taken its toll on her ability to understand
the underlying mechanism involved here.

Below this paragraph is her essay, with my comments in brackets,
followed by two studies to which she alludes, but for some reason does
not cite directly, followed by my comments on the studies, and then
some concluding remarks.  Note that this is not a "minor" point.
If Mead acid is what "nature intended," and if the huge amount of
evidence demonstrating the dangers of more than trace amounts of omega
3 and 6 PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) in the diet is even
somewhat true, then we are dealing with something like a combination of
genocide and suicide - suigenocide?  "Chronic disease" and the
consumption of highly unsaturated oils have risen with the exact same
curve (if graphed out), yet it is only recently that molecular-level
evidence is available in abundance to support this claim, but
apparently because people like Enig want to "defend their turf"
(notice the snide remark about who has the "expertise" even though
fatty acids are among the simplest biological molecules and the
experiments needed for verification comprehensible to children), there
is a sense among such people that the dogma must be defended at all
costs and without regard for the scientific method.

"A Reply to Ray Peat
on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency"

By Mary G. Enig, PhD

Ray Peat, PhD, is an influential health writer who
claims that there is no such thing as essential fatty
acid (EFA) deficiency. According to Peat, the body can
make its own EFAs; furthermore, he claims that EFAs in
the body become rancid and therefore cause cancer.

Unfortunately, Peat does not understand the use of EFA
by the human body. He is trained in hormone therapy
and his training in fats and oils has been limited to
misinformation as far as the polyunsaturated fats and
oils are concerned.

Research on EFAs is voluminous and consistent: EFAs
are types of fatty acids that the body cannot make,
but must obtain from food. We do not make them because
they exist in virtually all foods, and the body needs
them only in small amounts. The body does make
saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids because it
needs these in large amounts and cannot count on
getting all it needs from food.

[then where are all the dead people who didn't consume
omega 3s in decades, such as my relatives who lived to be 100, or are
still alive and in their 90s?  Also, the body does make a PUFA, the
Mead acid.  And why can't she cite one on point experiment that is
not terribly flawed?]

There are two types of EFAs, those of the omega-6
family and those of the omega-3 family. The basic
omega-6 fatty acid is called linoleic acid and it
contains two double bonds. It is found in virtually
all foods, but especially in nuts and seeds. The basic
omega-3 fatty acid is called linolenic acid and it
contains three double bonds. It is found in some
grains (such as wheat) and nuts (such as walnuts) as
well as in eggs, organ meats and fish if these animals
are raised naturally, and in green vegetables if the
plants are raised organically.

[The claim that only organically grown green vegetables can contain
some omega 3s is extraordinary, almost supernatural, but without any
citations, I will not pursue this tangential point here.]

Essential fatty acids have two principal roles. The
first is as a constituent of the cell membrane. Each
cell in the body is surrounded by a membrane composed
of billions of fatty acids. About half of these fatty
acids are saturated or monounsaturated to provide
stability to the membrane. The other half are
polyunsaturated, mostly EFAs , which provide
flexibility and participate in a number of biochemical
processes. The other vital role for EFAs is as a
precursor for prostaglandins or local tissue hormones,
which control different physiological functions
including inflammation and blood clotting.

[The "cell membrane" claims have been refuted decisively by Gilbert
Ling, but
if it is true, "EFAD" animals should literally fall apart, but they
do not - the major effect is to slow growth, which is not
detrimental, but beneficial to adults humans.  Furthermore, one should
need more than small amounts of omega 3s and 6s if they are needed to
hold cells together, and this would lead people to eat more than the
threshold amount for cancer, as the NRC and other scientists have
determined.  The intelligent thing to do would be to avoid any major
source of omega 3s and 6s and wait until one's body showed deficiency
signs, then supplement.  I have done this for about 4 years, Peat about
a decade - we only see benefits at this point.  In my own experience,
the reverse has been observed: my blood clots better now - healing is
a little slower, but there is little in the way of "inflammation"
and there is no itchy feeling.  Also, a nasty case of rosacea that I
had for over a decade went away.  This is consistent with biochemical
activity as the underlying mechanism, not some special need for
particular unsaturated fatty acids.  However, she has no excuse for
ignoring the many studies which reach such conclusions as: "COX-2
derived prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) can promote tumor growth by binding its
receptors and activating signaling pathways which control cell
proliferation, migration, apoptosis, and/or angiogenesis. However, the
prolonged use of high dosages of COX-2 selective inhibitors (COXIBs) is
associated with unacceptable cardiovascular side effects."   Source:
Gut. 2005 Aug 23; [Epub ahead of print]    "Prostaglandins and
cancer."
Wang D, Dubois RN.  As I've said, with Mead acid, there is no COX-2
problem because there is no COX-2 expression, due to the lower level of
biochemical activity involved.  Enig acts as if these kinds of studies,
as well as the many studies that show benefits from Mead acid, along
with others that have observed things like Mead acid in healthy young
cartilage but arachidonic acid (AA) in old, arthritic cartilage, do not
exist!   For example: "n-9 20:3 acid [Mead acid] in cartilage may be
important for maintaining normal cartilage structure."  Source: The
FASEB Journal, Vol 5, 344-353, Copyright © 1991 by The Federation of
American Societies for Experimental Biology.
Enig's presentation is irresponsible and demonstrates a serious
breach of scholarly integrity - there is no excuse for it.  I, on the
other hand, try to read every relevant study, and will respond directly
and clearly to any study which appears to contradict the points I make
here.  If I am wrong or mistaken, I admit it, and learn from it]

Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by
feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their
only fat. (Full hydrogenation gets rid of all the
EFAs; coconut oil is used because it is the only fat
that can be fully hydrogenated and still be soft
enough to eat.) The animals developed dry coats and
skin and slowly declined in health, dying prematurely.
(Interestingly, representatives of the vegetable oil
industry blame the health problems on coconut oil, not
on fatty acid deficiency!)

[A citation here is crucial, but this claim about coconut oil makes no
sense and is misleading.  Fresh coconut oil is natural, hydrogenated
coconut oil introduces complicating factors that a scientist tries to
eliminate from experiments, such as toxic nickel from the hydrogenation
process.  Since fresh coconut oils contains no omega 3s, there is no
reason to use the unnatural hydrogenated stuff, which may indeed act as
a strong inhibitor of what is truly needed in pregnant animals, that
is, biochemical activity.  Without omega 3s, the animals would be
"deficient" and should not produce viable offspring.  There are all
kinds of claims these days about the need for omega 3s in pregnancy,
and so the fresh coconut oil should be used if one wants to do a more
scientifically consistent experiment.  Yet the best idea would be to
feed mice that ate only fresh coconut oil as their fat source to a
carnivorous animal like cats, both pregnant ones and adult males.  The
cats should be allowed to eat as many mice as they want, in whatever
way they want, so that nature would dictate the diet, with the one
exception of Mead acid being substituted for omega 3 and 6 PUFAs.  This
would demonstrated whether omega 3s and 6s are special, or whether
it's a matter of a threshold amount of biochemical activity.]

In a situation of fatty acid deficiency, the body
tries to compensate by producing a fatty acid called
Mead acid out of the monounsaturated oleic acid. It is
a 20-carbon fatty acid with three double bonds named
after James Mead, a lipids researcher at the
University of California at Los Angeles who first
identified it. An elevated level of Mead acid in the
body is a marker of EFA deficiency.

According to Peat, elevated levels of Mead acid
constitute proof that your body can make EFAs.
However, the Mead acid acts as a "filler" fatty acid
that cannot serve the functions that the original EFA
are needed for. Peat claims that Mead acid has a full
spectrum of protective anti-inflammatory effects;
however, the body cannot convert Mead acid into the
elongated fatty acids that the body needs for making
the various anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.

[this is really perplexing, because if AA "overdose" is
the cause of "inflammation," one would not need
anti-inflammatory substances if there was no substance
that caused inflammation in the first place.  And how does she know
that Mead acid is a "filler?"  What is a "filler,
scientifically?"  She seems to make things up as she goes along,
without any regard for scientific principles.  Ironically, much of her
essay is what we used to call "filler" in grad school. ]

Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids
become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the
polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go
through different stages of controlled oxidation. To
say that these fatty acids become "rancid" is
misleading. Of course, EFAs can become rancid through
high temperature processing and it is not healthy to
consume these types of fats. But the EFAs that we take
in through fresh, unprocessed food are not rancid and
do not become rancid in the body. In small amounts,
they are essential for good health. In large amounts,
they can pose health problems which is why we need to
avoid all the commercial vegetable oils containing
high levels of polyunsaturates.

[Here, Enig should be clear about what she means.  A google search for
"in vivo lipid peroxidation" produced 14,100 results.  She appears to
be far outside the scientific mainstream on this point, but if she does
not explain how she came to this conclusion - as I always do about my
claims - her claim cannot be taken seriously.  Moreover, there are
some phenomena that is undeniable: what about food that is not
completely digested?  I
ate foods that came out of me looking the same way they did when I ate
them, when I had the terrible bout of malabsorption.  There would have
been at least some in vivo lipid peroxidation going on under such
circumstances.  I sped up the aging of my gastrointestinal track by my
diet high in nuts, seeds, beans, flax, etc., but it is known that many
people produce less stomach acid and enzymes as they age, meaning that
even if they don't eat too much, there will likely be some undigested
food in their guts.  And it is the ease with which the highly unstable
omega 3s and 6s are changed in the body, or during cooking, into very
dangerous molecules such as 4-HNE that may do the most damage.  The
omega 3s and 6s don't just "stand around" waiting for "good
things" to happen to them.]

Peat's reasoning has led him to claim that cod liver
oil causes cancer because cod liver oil contains
polyunsaturated fatty acids. Actually, the main fatty
acid in cod liver oil is a monounsaturated fatty acid.
The two main polyunsaturated fatty acids in cod liver
oil are the elongated omega-3 fatty acids called EPA
and DHA, which play many vital roles in the body and
actually can help protect against cancer. Furthermore,
cod liver oil is our best dietary source of vitamins A
and D, which also protect us against cancer.

[Enig's reasoning here is incomprehensible:  Peat has argued that
high-quality olive oil, a great source of oleic acid, is much better
than oils such as safflower (unless you want to paint with it).  Almost
everything with fat contains some oleic acid.  Oleic acid is not the
issue, and she should know this.  If you mixed cyanide with olive oil
and fed them to mice and the mice died, we would all agree that the
cyanide was to blame.  The issue is susceptibility to free radical
degradation, and that is where the very unstable EPA and DHA molecules
are a major cause of concern.  If fish oil protects against cancer and
has no "down side," then she or those who agree with her should
take me up on my offer, which the evidence suggests will demonstrate
that biochemical activity is the mechanism involved.  The idea that
omega 3s and 6s are essential is inconsistent with basic biochemical
principles, because cells need the stress from excess biochemical
activity to grow, not any particular fatty acid.  Experiments should
substitute an amount of Mead acid that has the equivalent biochemical
potency of the amount of arachidonic acid that is considered necessary
for proper growth.  This would be settle the issue once and for all
(assuming the experiment was conducted properly), and provide a
scientific basis for accepting or discarding what up to this point have
been grand pronouncements based upon opinions about what the supposed
results of terribly flawed experiments mean.

And again, there are no citations for these remarkable claims about
EPA/DHA.]

Actually, Peat's argument that polyunsaturated fatty
acids become harmful in the body and hence cause
cancer simply does not make sense. It is impossible to
avoid polyunsaturated fatty acids because they are in
all foods.

[Does she realize that Mead acid is a PUFA - apparently not.
Moreover, this demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the relevant
literature, which suggests that there is a threshold
amount that causes much higher rates of cancer - the
NRC saw this about 15 years ago, and I have quoted them on this point
on this newsgroup several times over the years.]

EFAs are, however, harmful in large amounts and the
many research papers cited by Peat showing immune
problems, increased cancer and premature aging from
feeding of polyunsaturates simply corroborate this
fact. But Peat has taken studies indicating that large
amounts of EFAs are bad for us (a now well-established
fact) and used them to argue that we don't need any at
all.

[According to the NRC, these "large amounts" are less than most
Americans are consuming these days, which means this is a kind of
dietary national emergency.]

Finally, it should be stressed that certain components
of the diet actually reduce (but do not eliminate) our
requirements for EFAs. The main one is saturated fatty
acids which help us conserve EFAs and put them in the
tissues where they belong. Some studies indicate that
vitamin B6 can ameliorate the problems caused by EFA
deficiency, possibly by helping us use them more
efficiently.
[AA in your tissues means it will be released upon minor stressors.
Is this good?   "...lethal injuries sustained by cells during short
exposures to AA were caused by the fatty acid itself..."  Biochem
Pharmacol. 2004 Mar 1;67(5):903-9.  "Ca2+ influx is not involved in
acute cytotoxicity of arachidonic acid."  Doroshenko N, Doroshenko P.
Apparently, she is referring to the "antioxidant" effect of eating
plenty of SFAs have, as Peat has said specifically, since SFAs are
resistant to oxidation and can act as a "buffer" to free radical
reactions, and hence, to AA metabolization.]

About the Author

Mary G. Enig, PhD is the author of Know Your Fats: The
Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of
Fats, Oils, and Cholesterol, Bethesda Press, May 2000.
Order your copy here: www.enig.com/trans.html.

IMPORTANT CORRECTION

In the Winter 2004 "Know Your Fats" column we stated
that Siberian pinenut oil was a good source of
gamma-linolenic acid (GLA). This was indicated from
fatty acid analyses performed in Siberia. We have
since performed further tests on the oil and found
that it does not contain significant amounts of GLA
but rather a fatty acid called pinoleic acid, an
18-carbon fatty acid with three double bonds but with
the first double bond on the fifth carbon, not the
sixth, as in GLA. We are sorry for any inconvenience
this may have caused.

[she is supposed to be a "fatty acid expert," and yet was unable to
do a simple analysis of this pinenut oil - makes one wonder about her
competency even in her area of "expertise"]

Now here are some abstracts that she seems to use in the above essay.
Because she did not cite her sources, as is "essential" in a
scientific paper, one cannot be sure what she was alluding to:

Br J Nutr. 1996 Feb;75(2):237-48.

Protein utilization, growth and survival in
essential-fatty-acid-deficient rats.

Henry CJ, Ghusain-Choueiri A, Payne PR.

School of Biological and Molecular Sciences, Oxford
Brookes University.

The relationship between essential fatty acids (EFA)
deficiency and the utilization of dietary protein,
growth rate and survival of offspring was investigated
in rats during development and reproduction. EFA
deficiency was induced by feeding a 200 g
casein/kg-based diet containing 70 g hydrogenated
coconut oil (HCO)/kg as the only source of fat. The
conversion efficiency of dietary protein was assessed
as net protein utilization (NPU), using a 10 d
comparative carcass technique. Consumption of the
deficient diet during the 10 d assay period induced
biochemical changes characteristic of mild EFA
deficiency in humans (triene:tetraene 0.27 (SD 0.04)
compared with 0.026 (SD 0.004) for non-deficient
controls), but there were no significant changes in
growth rate or protein utilization. These variables
were also unchanged when the deficient diet was fed
for an additional 7 d before the assay, although
triene:tetraene increased to 0.8 (SD 0.02). Feeding
the deficient diet for 63 d before assay produced
severe EFA deficiency (triene:tetraene 1.4 (SD 0.3) v.
0.036 (SD 0.005) for controls), a fall in growth rate
(25% during assay period), and NPU (31.5 (SD 0.63) v.
39.0 (SD 0.93) for controls). These
severely-EFA-deficient animals had a 30% higher
fasting-resting rate of energy metabolism than that of
age-matched controls. However, there was no change in
the rate of endogenous N loss. Voluntary energy
consumption was increased in animals fed on deficient
diets, either with 200 g protein/kg, or protein free.
The reduced efficiency of protein utilization could be
entirely accounted for by the restricted amount of
energy available for growth and protein deposition.
Consumption of an EFA-deficient diet during pregnancy
and lactation resulted in high mortality (11% survival
rate at weaning compared with 79% for controls) and
retarded growth in the preweaning offspring. It is
concluded that animals are particularly sensitive to
EFA deficiency during reproduction and pre- and
post-natal stages of development. However, after
weaning only severe EFA deficiency retarded growth,
primarily through changes in energy balance.

I agree with this study in some ways, though I think the underlying
mechanism is not correct.  It is not omega 3 and 6 PUFAs that are
"essential," but a certain amount of biochemical activity
stimulation, which all agree occurs when a threshold amount of
unsaturated fatty acids are consumed.  As they say, "EFA deficiency
retarded growth," and this is my point: that is, you want what they
call "retarded growth" if you are a grown human being who is not
pregnant - otherwise, you are flirting with cancer and other
"chronic diseases."  Notice that some of the offspring did survive,
even with no unsaturated fatty acids at all.  This is strong evidence
that omega 3s and 6s are not "essential," because if they were
there should have been no survivors.  Their results are consistent with
Peat's claim that oxidative stress, often from excess PUFA
consumption, leads to thyroid suppression and more energy, which
requires more energy/calories.  They probably did not feed the
hydrogenated coconut oil mice enough food, because their "normals"
were based on mice with suppressed thyroids.  Farmers have known for
decades that soy and corn cause farm animals to "fatten up" -
this is not news.  The key point is that the only possible
"negative" in "essential fatty acid deficiency" is less growth,
exactly what I, as a grown adult human, want at this point, and as
I've mentioned in past posts, I was able to recover fully from severe
osteoporosis (as well as a nasty bout of tendonosis) on a diet with
only trace amounts of omega 3s and 6s, so the "no growth" claim
must be false or overemphasized to such a degree as to be laughable.
High quality protein in larger amounts seems to have made a big
difference in my case, not omega 3 and 6 PUFAs, which are for fast
plant growth or for animals swimming around in very cold waters.

Now here's another such study (one that we must assume Enig is
alluding to):

J Nutr. 1996 Apr;126(4 Suppl):1081S-5S.Related
Articles,Links

Is dietary arachidonic acid necessary for feline
reproduction?

Pawlosky RJ, Salem N Jr.

National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse,
Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological
Research, Rockville, MD 20852, USA.

A study was carried out to determine whether corn
oil-based diets devoid of arachidonic acid, 20:4(n-6),
are capable of supporting feline reproduction. One
group of four adult female felines were acclimated to
a 10 weight% (wt%) fat diet consisting of 1 wt% corn
oil and 9 wt% hydrogenated coconut oil for 1 mo before
mating. One female produced two live offspring, and
the other three females delivered either stillborn
fetuses or offspring that were severely deformed and
died shortly after birth. Two of these females were
subsequently placed on a 1 wt% corn oil diet that was
supplemented with 20:4(n-6) (200 mg/ kg of diet), and
after 2 mo they were mated. Offspring resulting from
the second mating were healthy. A third group of
females that were maintained on a 10 wt% fat diet
consisting of 3 wt% corn oil were also mated. The
offspring from these matings appeared healthy at
birth. Neonates from each diet group were killed, and
the fatty acyl composition of the livers, plasma and
brains was analyzed. In the offspring livers and
plasma, the level of 20:4(n-6) from both the 1 wt% or
3 wt% corn oil diet groups was about half that of
offspring from those receiving 20:4(n-6) in the diet.
There were no differences in the level of 20:4(n-6) in
the neonate brains among any of the groups. This study
suggests that nutritional factors unrelated to the
tissue accumulation of arachidonic acid in the
offspring may be responsible for the high percentage
of stillbirths and deformities associated with
maternal diets containing low amounts of essential
fatty acids but that diets that contain a higher
percentage of corn oil can support feline
reproduction.

Four animals are not enough, obviously, but this experiment is
revealing because even consuming a diet in an anti-growth substance
like hydrogenated coconut oil (HCO) one of f the four produced healthy
kittens.  Once again, this experiment demonstrates that "EFAs" are
not "essential," even during pregnancy.  The animals may not have
been fed enough, and thus could not produce enough Mead acid to meet
the special needs of pregnancy.  Rosemary and other powerful
antioxidant herbs and spices are in some ways similar to HCO in their
anti-growth effects.  If the animals were force fed foods rich in
oregano, basil, rosemary, etc. (I doubt that they would voluntarily eat
it), my guess is that no offspring would have been viable.  Yet nobody
is telling pregnant women not to eat such foods, which is good advice,
unless they want a miscarriage (most would likely be revolted by the
thought of eating such foods due to instincts).  The underlying
mechanism is biochemical activity.  You need plenty of it in pregnancy,
but not in adulthood.  People are being told to consume such substances
(antioxidants, "phytonutrients," etc.), and yet they are also being
told to consume omega 3s and 6s, which have the opposite effects.
There is nothing special about omega 3s and 6s, except that they are
much more unstable/biochemically active than the Mead acid PUFA, yet
"experts" talk of omega 3s and 6s as if they are endowed with
supernatural qualities.  If they want to claim that there is no
equivalency in biochemical activity (for example, 1 arachidonic acid
molecule might be as biochemically active as 5 Mead acid molecules) but
that there is some special quality to AA, and not Mead acid, then it is
their responsibility to demonstrate this in a controlled experiment.
The experiments they point to do not demonstrate what they say they do.
Their claims resemble religious doctrines more than anything else.

I will propose an experiment that does meet the criteria: take mice
that have been fed fresh coconut oil as their only major fat source
their entire lives and feed them to pregnant cats.  The mice will have
Mead acid in them, but nothing more than trace amounts of omega 3s and
6s (if any).  Allow the cats to eat all the mice they want, so that
caloric intake and unnatural diets will not be a factor.   Probably 30
or 40 cats will be better than 4, and if enough cats are studied, we
will know if the issue is biochemical activity in general, or some
special quality of omega 3s and 6s which has yet to be determined by
science (biochemical activity, on the other hand, is a basic principle,
and can be measured), but we can start with several and see what
results.  If they all produce viable offspring, there would be no need
to go further: it would be clear that the EFA claim is as nonsensical
as can be.

One point that seems to elude people like Enig is that two scientific
models can, and often do, exist at the same time, but one must be more
accurate than the other.  The way to determine which is more accurate
is to do on point experiments, not experiments that can be explained by
both models.

In the absence of such experiments, there are other sources that are
suggestive, such as the demographic data showing hardly any "chronic
disease" among those who eat large amounts of fresh coconut.  There
are epidemiological studies, most of which are flawed in the
dietary/nutrition context because they begin with faulty assumptions
rather than gathering data and looking at all the factors in play.  A
few have done this, and have found that "red meat" and "processed
meat" are associated with higher rates of "heart disease," due to
the free radical damage that occurs to these food items, as well as to
the high arachidonic acid, iron, and cholesterol content.  As Dr.
Richard Stein said a few months, it's only the oxidized cholesterol
that is a problem (page B17 of New York's Newsday newspaper, March 1,
2005), though I have been saying this here for a few years or so.
Thus, the fact that beef has a bit more saturated fatty acids than
chicken is irrelevant.  In fact, if beef was as high in saturated fatty
acids as coconut oil, it might be a much safer food (due to the
resistance of saturated fatty acids to oxidation), and yet because it
is a bit higher in SFAs, the "saturated fat," which has no precise
definition in this context anyway, gets all the blame.

And this brings us to molecular level evidence, which is overwhelmingly
supportive of the points I make here.   For example, a recent
experiment found that "When mildly oxidized, liposomes containing
either linoleic acid or arachadonic acid increased monocyte chemotaxis
and monocyte adhesion to endothelial cells nearly 5-fold, demonstrating
that oxidation products of both these polyunsaturated fatty acids are
bioactive," whereas "In contrast, when liposomes were enriched in
oleic acid, monocyte chemotaxis and monocyte adhesion were nearly
completely inhibited.  These results suggest that enriching
lipoproteins with oleic acid may reduce oxidation both by a direct
"antioxidant"-like effect and by reducing the amount of linoleic acid
available for oxidation." Source:
http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/6/1239  The body makes
palmitic acid (an SFA) and also oleic acid, which can then be made into
Mead acid (not to get too technical).  In light of hundreds of these
kinds of molecular level experiments, it is remarkable that anyone
would suggest that allowing the human body to make its own PUFA, the
Mead acid, is the most intelligent thing a person can do for long-term
health.

If anyone feels that the evidence for omega 6 and 3 "essentiality"
is incontrovertible, then you have a responsibility to those people who
you think are being "misled" by me to take me up on my offer and
demonstrate the flaws in my reasoning.  I am willing to put up as much
as $50,000 of my own money to demonstrated the correctness of my
thinking, but no one among the many critics are willing to put up a few
thousand dollars of their own money.  I'm not suggesting anything
strange, just a verification of the 1930 Burr & Burr experiment, but
done with proper scientific controls.  Most non-scientists believe that
verification experiments are done routinely, and yet the opposite is
often the case, and instead what happens is that a dogma gets
established that is based upon flawed experimental designs, incomplete
knowledge, or incorrect assumptions.  If anyone wants to contact Enig
and propose my offer, I would appreciate it.  I tried to contact her
via her email address at least twice over the last several years but
got no response, and I only asked a question that one would think is
within her field of "expertise."  I did not make any experimental
offers to her.

If you make a claim that you want to be regarded as scientific, then
you must subject it to the scientific method.  This method requires
that your claim is always true, every time   confirmatory experiments
are conducted.  In the case of "essential fatty acids" and pregnant
animals, some offspring did survive, which means the essential fatty
acid is incorrect, and that it is likely a matter of a threshold of
biochemical activity being required for the quick growth that a fetus
needs.  The way to know for sure is to do the experiment that I
suggested, with mice fed fresh coconut oil, that are then fed to
pregnant mice (allowing the cats to eat as many mice as they want, or
whatever parts of the mice they choose).  In fact, such an experiment
might show that there is an equivalency (at least in pregnant cats);
for example, 1 arachidonic fatty acid may be equivalent to 5 Mead fatty
acids, in terms of the biochemical activity involved in fetal
development.  Why anyone would attack such basic, sensible,
intellectually consistent, and scientifically necessary criticisms and
proposals is incomprehensible, and implies gross incompetence,
conflicts of interest, "low self esteem," or "knee jerk
reactions" that demonstrate psychological instability (and I've
known a few professors who fit this description very well) in a
mistaken desire to "defend" one's "turf" and save the
"ignorant masses."
montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:21 GMT
Correction: "don't eat too much" should be "eat too much."
montygram - 20 Sep 2005 23:23 GMT
Ignore the "correction."
joshv - 20 Sep 2005 23:45 GMT
> Ignore the "correction."

How about we just ignore you entirely?
montygram - 21 Sep 2005 02:15 GMT
You do so at your own risk, but this NG is about science, so how about
addressing what I am saying scientifically?  Do you have a problem with
this point, or would you like to argue about that too?
joshv - 21 Sep 2005 04:51 GMT
I've addressed you and your proposed "scientific" experiment
previously.  I was ignored.  I asked the same questions you would have
to answer in any grant proposal to get research funds to conduct such a
study.  These are the sorts of questions that people who fund *real*
scientific research want answered before they spend their precious
funds.

Please answer the questions I posed about your study in the following
post:

http://tinyurl.com/dbenp

Until you do, please stop harping on how nobody on this ng has the guts
to fund your study.  More like people have the smarts not to waste
their money.

> You do so at your own risk, but this NG is about science, so how about
> addressing what I am saying scientifically?  Do you have a problem with
> this point, or would you like to argue about that too?
Robert - 21 Sep 2005 07:00 GMT
> > Ignore the "correction."
>
> How about we just ignore you entirely?

Good point.
Matti Narkia - 27 Sep 2005 23:46 GMT
Here's a concise EFA bibliography to advance "montygram"'s virtually
nonexistent knowledge about the topic:

Burr G. O., Burr M. M.
A new deficiency disease produced by the rigid exclusion of fat from the
diet. J. Biol. Chem. 1929; 82:345-367
<http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/82/2/345>

Burr G. O., Burr M. M.
The nature and role of the fatty acids essential in nutrition. J. Biol.
Chem. 1930; 86:587-621
<http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/86/2/587>

Holman RT, Johnson SB, Hatch TF.
A case of human linolenic acid deficiency involving neurological
abnormalities.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1982 Mar;35(3):617-23.
PMID: 6801965 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=6
801965&dopt=Abstract
>

Abstract:

   "A 6-yr-old girl who lost 300 cm of intestine was
   maintained by total parenteral nutrition. After 5 months
   on a preparation rich in linoleic acid but low in
   linolenic acid she experienced episodes of numbness,
   paresthesia, weakness, inability to walk, pain in the
   legs, and blurring of vision. Diagnostic analysis of fatty
   acids of serum lipids revealed marginal linoleate
   deficiency and significant deficiency of linolenate. When
   the regimen was changed to emulsion containing linolenic
   acid neurological symptoms disappeared. Analysis indicated
   that linoleate deficiency had worsened but linolenate
   deficiency had been corrected. The requirement for
   linolenic acid is estimated to be about 0.54% of
   calories."

Bourre JM, Piciotti M, Dumont O, Pascal G, Durand G.
Dietary linoleic acid and polyunsaturated fatty acids in rat brain and other
organs. Minimal requirements of linoleic acid.
Lipids. 1990 Aug;25(8):465-72.
PMID: 2120529 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2
120529&dopt=Abstract
>

Cunnane SC, Anderson MJ.
Pure linoleate deficiency in the rat: influence on growth, accumulation of
n-6 polyunsaturates, and [1-14C]linoleate oxidation.
J Lipid Res. 1997 Apr;38(4):805-12.
PMID: 9144095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/2/446>

Holman RT.
The slow discovery of the importance of omega 3 essential fatty acids in
human health.
J Nutr. 1998 Feb;128(2 Suppl):427S-433S. Review.
PMID: 9478042 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/2/427S>

Abstract:

   "Although linoleic and linolenic acids have been known to
   be necessary for normal growth and dermal function since
   1930, the omega 3 essential fatty acids (EFA) have not
   received much attention until recently. The two families
   of acids are metabolized by the same enzymes, making them
   competitive. Gross deficiencies of omega 6 plus omega 3
   EFA have been observed in humans, induced by attempts at
   total parenteral nutrition (TPN) with preparations devoid
   of lipids. Deficiency of omega 3 acids has been induced by
   TPN containing high omega 6 and low omega 3 fatty acids.
   In natural human populations, a wide range of omega 3 and
   omega 6 proportions have been found, ranging from high
   omega 3 and low omega 6 content to low omega 3 and high
   omega 6 content, showing inverse correlation between sigma
   omega 6 and sigma omega 3. In humans with neuropathy or
   impairment of the immune system, significant deficits of
   omega 3 EFA have been measured."

Cunnane SC.
The long history of essential fatty acids but belated knowledge about
linoleate deficiency per se: a paradox.
J Nutr. 1999 Feb;129(2):446.
PMID: 10024625 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/2/446>

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 28 Sep 2005 00:04 GMT
Here's an interesting result: according to the abstract

Cunnane SC, Ryan MA, Craig KS, Brookes S, Koletzko B, Demmelmair H, Singer
J, Kyle DJ.
Synthesis of linoleate and alpha-linolenate by chain elongation in the rat.
Lipids. 1995 Aug;30(8):781-3.
PMID: 7475996 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=7475996
>

rats and probably humans can synthetize a small proportion of their total
body content of omega-6 linoleic acid and omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid from
omega-6 hexadecadienoate (16:2n-6) and omega-3 hexadecatrienoate (16:3n-3),
respectively, which are present in small amounts in green leafy vegetables
common in the human diet.

Signature

Matti Narkia

montygram - 28 Sep 2005 01:36 GMT
Other points worth considering by those with an open mind:

The studies Matti Narkia cites demonstrate my point, as they are either
claims made without actual experiments being done, anecdotal cases of
very ill or badly injured people (and there are only a handful of such
cases in the entire scientific literature), comparisons of fat free
diets with ones that contain omega 6s and or 3s (instead of comparing
fresh coconut oil to omega 3s and 6s), have an "endpoint" as something
other than mortality (which is what most people are interested in, not
"signs" of "deficiency" which are most likely signs of researcher bias,
and not something we can verify without doing another, properly
controlled study), or are not on point, such as the following (cited by
Narkia, above):

"Starting three weeks before mating, 12 groups of female rats were fed
different amounts of linoleic acid (18:2n-6). Their male pups were
killed when 21-days-old. Varying the dietary 18:2n-6 content between
150 and 6200 mg/100 g food intake had the following results. Linoleic
acid levels remained very low in brain, myelin, synaptosomes, and
retina. In contrast, 18:2n-6 levels increased in sciatic nerve. In
heart, linoleic acid levels were high, but were not related to dietary
linoleic acid intake. Levels of 18:2n-6 were significantly increased in
liver, lung, kidney, and testicle and were even higher in muscle and
adipose tissue. On the other hand, in heart a constant amount of
18:2n-6 was found at a low level of dietary 18:2n-6. Constant levels of
arachidonic acid (20:4n-6) were reached at 150 mg/100 g diet in all
nerve structures, and at 300 mg/100 g diet in testicle and muscle, at
800 mg/100 g diet in kidney, and at 1200 mg/100 g diet in liver, lung,
and heart. Constant adrenic acid (22:4n-6) levels were obtained at 150,
900, and 1200 mg/100 g diet in myelin, sciatic nerve, and brain,
respectively. Minimal levels were difficult to determine. In all
fractions examined accumulation of docosapentaenoic acid (22:5n-6) was
the most direct and specific consequence of increasing amounts of
dietary 18:2n-6. Tissue eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and 22:5n-3
levels were relatively independent of dietary 18:2n-6 intake, except in
lung, liver, and kidney. In several organs (muscle, lung, kidney,
liver, heart) as well as in myelin, very low levels of dietary linoleic
acid led to an increase in 20:5n-3.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)"

What in the world is this supposed to tell us, Mattia?  It is useless
information.  We need to know if animals are healthier and live longer
with very low amounts of unsaturated fatty acids but with reasonable
amounts (15-30% of calories) of saturated fatty acids.  This does
nothing to address this question.  Do you realize that?

My critics on this newsgroup never respond to the points I make about
studies they "believe in" (except to point out that Burr & Burr -
1930 is old and out of date and I agree, but I am not citing it, the
"professional nutritionists" are, and the science of nutrition is
what this newsgroup is supposed to be about), and act as if all the
evidence I have presented over the years does not exist.   In
scholarship, you have a responsibility to address all the points those
who oppose your notions make.  I do this, not only out of my sense of
scholarly ethics, but also because I want to know what the scientific
reality is.  If omega 3 and 6 PUFAs should be consumed in huge amounts
every day, I want to know that, but the evidence at this point in
history indicates that the opposite is the case.

At any time in history, two hypotheses can coexist, but only one can be
accurate (and both may be inaccurate, though one must be better than
the other).  In this case, the experiments my critics (for example,
Enig, who is on the record against the idea that Mead acid is best)
cite prove my point (and I don't use the word prove lightly) because
if the claim is that omega 3 and 6 PUFAs are absolutely essential (and
that is undeniably the claim), and yet pregnant animals (and they need
more biochemical activity than non-pregnant adults) can have healthy
offspring, then this "essentiality" claim has been absolutely
proven false.  A law of nature does not work once in while, or 80% of
the time - any violation means it is not correct.  Instead, my claim
about PUFAs aiding the body in times when extra biochemical activity is
needed is the only claim that makes any sense at this point in time.
Fresh coconut oil probably represents the upper limit of what a
pregnant animal needs, in terms of unsaturated fatty acids (coconut is
8% unsaturated), but even with 100% saturated HCO, some animals had no
problems.  The EFA claim must be abandoned or else the scientific
method will be.

Perhaps the most important thing is what the practical implications
are.  The National Research Council concluded more than a decade ago
that the amount of omega 3 and 6s ingested in nations like the USA
surpass the threshold for causing the "common cancers,
and the evidence bears this out.  Nothing has contradicted their
finding to date.  Arguing that fresh coconut oil (with 2% omega 6s and
0% omega 3s) will satisfy one's "essential fatty acids needs"
means that for all practical purposes one only needs to avoid living
exclusively on processed food that is designated "no fat," and if
that is so, then let's say that - it is something we could all
probably agree on.  But the more urgent message is that excess omega 3
and 6 PUFA consumption means that we increase our chances of acquiring
a "chronic disease" greatly, and our life expectancies will be
shortened, perhaps considerably (depending upon other factors, such as
the amount and kinds of antioxidants in the diet).

Calling someone "deranged" or "disturbed" because he or she
closely examines scientific evidence and does not accept dogma unless
there is sufficient evidence to support it demonstrates (to me) a
severe psychological disorder, but that is not a topic for this
newsgroup.  I am going to remain focused on the science of the issue,
regardless of the non-scientific attacks you are making against someone
you don't know at all.

To those who do not like my experimental offer - go ahead and
suggest your own.  As long as you are willing to pay if you are wrong,
we can negotiate the details.  The key point I am making is that
consuming oils like canola, flax, and fish will mean that you will live
a much shorter life than if your only major fat source is fresh coconut
oil.  I have cited experiments in which rats fed corn oil have much
higher rates of cancer and diet much sooner than control rats, so I
have confidence in my position.  You can't call my experiments
"stupid" in conception because scientists have already done them
(unless you are calling all of them stupid, which makes no sense
because you cite the same kinds of experiments), and that is why I am
willing to put my own money on the line.  It is a trap.  But I have a
feeling that one of you is foolish enough to fall into it.  You cite
studies that show "deficiency symptoms" or "less inflammation"
which could all be due to the researcher's bias, but I agree that if
you load an animal up with corn oil, then give it fish oil, you will
see less "inflammation," but with Mead acid, there never is any
inflammation to begin with, so the fish oil is unnecessary.  That is my
claim.  Are you suggesting that there is no way to design an experiment
to test it?  If so, you probably need remedial education in the
sciences, but go ahead and explain why.  It should be interesting, to
say the least.  However, since I am willing to put my own money up, why
should you care?  Go ahead and demonstrate that I am wrong and cost me
thousands of dollars.

I am still waiting...
Mirek Fidler - 21 Sep 2005 20:07 GMT
> [then where are all the dead people who didn't consume
> omega 3s in decades, such as my relatives who lived to be 100, or are
> still alive and in their 90s?

OMG, not this argument once again....

Mirek
montygram - 21 Sep 2005 22:33 GMT
Yes, Mirek the truth hurts when you are on the wrong side of it,
doesn't it?

As to JoshV:

I read your link, and saw no citations.  You say "97 studies find a
decrease in mortality," and yet you can't cite one.  This is
ridiculous.  I am objective.  If there is one such study, I want to see
it.  Whenever I have examined such "studies" closely, they never
demonstrate what they claim to, just as Enig and others have pointed
out about the "cholesterol is bad" studies.  I'm willing to engage in
the scientific debate, but you have to cite some actual evidence, as I
always do.  And when it is pointed out that the claims of the
researchers do not match the actual results, or when it is pointed out
that the study was flawed, you have to address that, not try and
deflect attention with some tangential thing, like a typogrphical
error.

The 1930 experiment is Burr & Burr, and it is still being cited in
professional nutritional literature, as I have cited here many times.
If they are citing it, and nothing else, and if they are the "experts,"
then that must be addressed, and so I addressed it.  But I also
addressed similar experiments done over the last few years.  Did you
even read the post?  Why can't you respond to the points I made
directly.  Point out where I am wrong and explain why.  Nobody ever
does this, which leads me to conclude that they just want to defend the
current dogma, for whatever reason.

As I've said time and again, fish oil will interfere with AA
metabolization, which is basically the same thing as "inflammation" (on
the Mead acid, I get hardly anything like inflammation when I get a
cut), but as scientists have pointed out (I've cited the conclusions of
the NRC from 15 years ago, for example) it is too dangerous to consume
the amount of fish oil you would need to in order to control AA
metabolization.  Creating a monster to kill a monster usually just
means you have two monsters to deal with instead of one, and that is
the case here as well.  I've cited studies that have shown that this is
only a temporary effect anyway.  Where is your evidence?

And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are
both "essential."  What is clear is that they may indeed work well in
emergency medicine, but not for anything else, unless you believe in
"chemotherapy" for cancer, in which case fish oil is very good at
killing cells, even highly resistant cancer cells.

As to the experiment, as long as you and I agree on the terms, who
cares what anyone else thinks.  I am asking you to put your money where
your mouth is.  Do not waste the taxpayers money any more.  If you
think I am wrong, you should be more than willing to take me up on my
offer.  I am confident that we can agree on terms.  If you do not have
much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50
cents each.  I would be very surprised if the experiment cost more than
a couple of hundred dollars, and at some point I will likely do the
experiment myself (when I have more time), because it's clear now that
everyone here realizes what will happen, and they don't want to pay AND
look foolish.

You can't say that my experiment is ridiculous because these are the
experiments that have been used to justify consuming large amounts of
very dangerous substances since 1930 - they use rats, cats, mice, etc.

So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be,
start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean.
Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means.  If you don't
understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why
are you posting here.  Just cite the abstract.  As least that
ironjustice guy usually cites the abstracts will little or no
commentary, because he admits that he doesn't really understand exactly
where iron fits in, though I've explained it to him in great detail.

I am showing people how they are being conned with the "essential fatty
acid" nonsense, the "high cholesterol" nonsense, the "saturated fat is
bad" nonsense, etc.  The evidence is now available down to the
molecular level, for example, in the Spiteller abstract I've cited
several times, and it is clear that the "experts" who tell provide us
with these mantras do not understand the issues scientifically.  They
have invented a language of "markers," "endpoints," and "associations"
which allows them to come to whatever conclusions they like.  They
sometimes even change the "endpoint" when the results contradict what
they had hoped the results would be.  Now that molecular level
mechanisms are known, they can't get away with that any longer - if
people understand it.  And that is what I am trying to do here, namely,
to point out how the shell game is played, and to show people what the
scientific reality appears to be.

So, unless you are a poor man, there is no reason for you not to begin
negotiations with me on how are experiment will be conducted.

I am waiting...
MattLB - 22 Sep 2005 10:50 GMT
> So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be,
> start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean.
>  Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means.  If you don't
> understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why
> are you posting here.

Your ability to condemn others of doing precisely what you do,
seemingly without realising your delusion, is amazing.

You always end up crawling back to "Read what Gilbert Ling says", or
"Look at Ray Peat's newsletter" because you've failed to ever explain
why what you say is right and what everyone else says is wrong. You've
never managed to come up with a model of red cell ghosts that doesn't
involve a lipid bilayer, for instance and you've never tried to explain
what causes the dry skin and premature death in people with EFA
deficiency. Since you claim it's not the EFA deficiency, what is it?

Just parroting your "overwhelming evidence" and "type arachidonic into
PubMed" comments over and over again is lazy and doesn't require any
understanding of the biochemistry involved.

MattLB
Mirek Fidler - 22 Sep 2005 21:14 GMT
> Yes, Mirek the truth hurts when you are on the wrong side of it,
> doesn't it?

Ever heard about problems with "anecdotal evidence" ?

Mirek
montygram - 22 Sep 2005 21:33 GMT
Gilbert Ling did the experiment for the "ghosts."  I quoted him on it,
and gave the citation.  As I said, present the evidence and I'll
examine it.  Otherwise, you will be ignored.  Ling is willing to debate
anyone who can set up a standard debate.  You claim to have scientific
credentials, so he will debate you.  Go to his web site,
www.gilbertling.org and email him.

Yes, Mirek, but a deficiency must occur, or else there can't be
essentiality.  This is science.  If a hypothesis fails to explain
something it must be discarded or modified significantly.  If you are
correct, I should be experiencing "EFAD," but I am healthier now than
ever.  If I stopped ingesting vitamin C, what would happen within a
fairly short period of time?  What would my health be like 4 years
later?  You must be intelligent enough to see the logical inconsistency
in your argument, or are you that deluded?

The experiments that supposedly showed "EFA essentiality" are worse
than anecdotal - they are terribly flawed, in many ways.  Aside from
what I've mentioned before, how can you claim that signs of vitamin A
deficiency (the skin problems, for example), which you would expect on
the fat free diet given to the rats by Burr (since vitamin A is fat
soluble), are actually signs of "EFA deficiency?"  It was not a
properly controlled experiment.  Why can't you see that?  You and the
others never address this, but assume that flawed experiments should be
taken as gospel.  Could you explain why?

I propose to do it correctly, to see if Burr's conclusions are
accurate, yet nobody has enough faith in their results to take me up on
my offer.  You will make me pay AND admit I'm wrong if you are correct,
so the only reason not to take me up on my offer is that YOU KNOW THAT
YOU ARE WRONG!
montygram - 23 Sep 2005 01:44 GMT
As to MattLB's obsession with ghosts (though he does not explain what
his position is and exactly what the evidence is to support his
position), Ling has addressed what I think is MattLB's point at least
as early as 1984, in "In Search of the Physical Basis of Life:"

"Evidence that contradicts the notion that the red blood cell is a
hollow membrane vesicle came from Eric Ponder, who in 1948 published
his authoritative monograph 'Hemolysis and Related Phenomena.'  Three
years later Ponder (1951) published an
article specifically addressed to the problem described in its title,
'Is the Red Cell Ghost Solid or Hollow?'  His test consisted of
measuring the volume of red cell ghosts before and after
their fragmentation.  If the ghosts are hollow, he reasoned, the
fragments will occupy less volume; if they are solid the fragments
will retain the same volume.  His results showed no change in volume,
leading Ponder to the conclusion that red cell ghosts are solid.

With these past finding in the background, how, may one ask, did the
red cell ghost become in recent years almost synonymous with pure red
cell membrane?  As one among many examples, I point out that in Volume
31 of 'Methods in Enzymology' the section title reads 'The Preparation
of Red Cell Ghost (Membranes).'  This parenthetical equation is echoed
in another statement,  'In preparative method described here, the
membranes (ghosts) are observed through the use of osmotic lysis'
(Hanahan and Ekholm, 1974).
Clearly the authors, like many others of the time, expressed without
equivocation the belief that membranes and ghosts are identical.  But
then how can the ghost be at once solid and hollow?"  Page 129.

But you, MattLB, won't even address obvious contradictions that make
what I assusme your position is (because you are not stating exactly
what it is) a physical impossibility, that is, cells can be stripped of
the fatty acid that are clinging to the outside, and yet the cells hold
together very nicely.

Your inability  to understand basic scientific, unfortunately, is all
too common these days, as one see from all the promises that lead to
nothing, all the predictions that never pan out, and all the "diseases"
that don't get cured.
MattLB - 23 Sep 2005 12:13 GMT
> As to MattLB's obsession with ghosts (though he does not explain what
> his position is and exactly what the evidence is to support his
> position), Ling has addressed what I think is MattLB's point at least
> as early as 1984, in "In Search of the Physical Basis of Life:"

LOL. You couldn't have proved my point about deferring to others more
perfectly.

As for my position, your omega3-deficient brain's letting you down
again.  I've already addressed your citation:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/46b3c7ad57d9bf97?hl=en&

> With these past finding in the background, how, may one ask, did the
> red cell ghost become in recent years almost synonymous with pure red
> cell membrane?

Because that's what it is.

> But you, MattLB, won't even address obvious contradictions

You mean you don't remember me already addressing them. There's a
difference.

> that make
> what I assusme your position is (because you are not stating exactly
> what it is) a physical impossibility, that is, cells can be stripped of
> the fatty acid that are clinging to the outside, and yet the cells hold
> together very nicely.

Fatty acids clinging to the outside? By what mechanism?  What cells did
you have in mind that hold together very nicely? Now a good time to
substantiate your claim about always proving citations for what you
say.

> Your inability  to understand basic scientific,

Is there a word missing or should it be "science"? Maybe if you
proofread a bit more there'd be less of a problem understanding what
you're trying to say.

MattLB
Mirek Fidler - 23 Sep 2005 19:49 GMT
My dear Monty,

actually, I feel unqualified to comment most of your claims.

Only thing that bothers me and makes them somewhat suspicious that in
each post you do not forget to mention your grandparents as the evidence
supporting your theories.

Mirek
joshv - 24 Sep 2005 12:42 GMT
> As to JoshV:
>
> I read your link, and saw no citations.  You say "97 studies find a
> decrease in mortality," and yet you can't cite one.

In the thread I linked to, YOU cut and pasted the summary of the review
into your response.  Here, I'll copy the text YOU posted:

"Arch Intern Med. 2005 Apr 11;165(7):725-30.

Effect of different antilipidemic agents and diets on mortality: a
systematic review. "

If you want the citations for the 97 studies, I'd imagine they are in
the full-text of the review article.

If you were serious about your "experiment", you would have looked up
all these studies on your own, and systematically explained to your
prospective funding sources why you feel these studies are incorrect or
deficient.  Instead you make general, hand-waiving claims about how all
such studies are wrong.

> This is
> ridiculous.  I am objective.  If there is one such study, I want to see
> it.

Then look them up.

> Whenever I have examined such "studies" closely, they never
> demonstrate what they claim to, just as Enig and others have pointed
> out about the "cholesterol is bad" studies.

Enig et al. directly address specific studies.  I can find their
arguments, find the original articles, and judge for myself.  You on
the other hand make general claims that say essentially "Enig found
cholesterol studies to be lacking, therefore my lazy a.s is going to
assume that all research I disagree with is bad".  Strange that you
want to agree with Enig only when convenient.  I thought this thread
was about how Enig was wrong.

>  I'm willing to engage in
> the scientific debate, but you have to cite some actual evidence, as I
> always do.

No you don't, and I have consistently responded with citations.  There
is one at the top of this article. Read it, read the studies it
reviews, and get back to me.

>  And when it is pointed out that the claims of the
> researchers do not match the actual results, or when it is pointed out
> that the study was flawed, you have to address that, not try and
> deflect attention with some tangential thing, like a typogrphical
> error.

Please, do make a specific claim as to the deficiencies of a specific
study and I will adress it.

> The 1930 experiment is Burr & Burr, and it is still being cited in
> professional nutritional literature, as I have cited here many times.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> does this, which leads me to conclude that they just want to defend the
> current dogma, for whatever reason.

I have responded directly to your claims on many occasions.

> As I've said time and again, fish oil will interfere with AA
> metabolization, which is basically the same thing as "inflammation" (on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the case here as well.  I've cited studies that have shown that this is
> only a temporary effect anyway.  Where is your evidence?

Evidence of what?  I have only ever refuted your claim that EFAs are
harmful.  You are the one making the claim, you are the one required to
provide the evidence.

You have also utterly failed to address why some of the longest lived
populations on the planet have the highest fish intake.  How is this
consistent with your hypothesis?

> And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are
> both "essential."  What is clear is that they may indeed work well in
> emergency medicine, but not for anything else, unless you believe in
> "chemotherapy" for cancer, in which case fish oil is very good at
> killing cells, even highly resistant cancer cells.

As has been pointed out to you on many occasions, this is in a petri
dish.  The internals of the human body are quite different.

> As to the experiment, as long as you and I agree on the terms, who
> cares what anyone else thinks.  I am asking you to put your money where
> your mouth is.  Do not waste the taxpayers money any more.  If you
> think I am wrong, you should be more than willing to take me up on my
> offer.

I have no idea what your offer consists of.  I've read your vague
experiment and have no idea what it's trying to prove.  I've asked you
a number of detailed questions about this experiment, which you have
utterly failed to answer.  Please do so.

Here are some questions for you that would would be asked by anyone who
was serious about funding your 'study':
- Which animals do we use?  Mice?  Dogs?  Sea Lions? Seals?  Monkeys?
The results will vary radically.  If you have picked a particular
animal, why?  Please detail how you feel that this animal's fat
metabolism closely resembles that of a human.
- How much do we force feed them?  I imagine any dietary component,
force fed will cause harm, sugar and protein included.  I don't force
feed myself fish-oil, I take two gel caps a day.  I don't think the
ADHD study that started this thread studied children who were force fed
omega-3s.
- Why are you 'force-feeding'?  If you want to see if omega-3
supplementation is harmful in humans, wouldn't it be better to scale a
supplement dosage to the animal's size?
- Can you cite any in-vivo studies that even suggest the outcome you
appear to expect? "I would be surprised if the mice being forced to eat
the fish oil lived half of their average life expectancy."  Your
"surprise" is not enough.  Any person funding this study would need
some evidence that the expected outcome is vaguely probable.
- Given you are force feeding fish oil, which is highly caloric, how
will you control for the adverse effects of the hypercaloric diet these
animals will be on?
- How long will this study last?
- What facilities will you need?
- What staff will you need?
- How much money do you estimate all of this will cost?
- Have you thoroughly research the full-text of human studies on
consumption of omega-3 and health benefit/detriment?  Please detail why
you feel these studies are lacking, why a non-human model is preferable
to a human, and what new evidence the results of this study will give
to direct dietary advice given that there are very few humans "force
feeding" themselves on massive quantities of fish oil.

If you cannot answer all of these questions in detail, no one will take
you seriously for a grant - myself included (and I guarantee you, I
don't have 1/100 the funds required to run such a study).

> I am confident that we can agree on terms.  If you do not have
> much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50
> cents each.

Wow.  You really are naive.  Do you image the cost of the mice
themselves is even a minor fraction of the cost of such a study? You
need a facility to house the mice.  You need people to feed and care
for the mice.  You need people to gather data in a controlled and
scientific manner.

> I would be very surprised if the experiment cost more than
> a couple of hundred dollars, and at some point I will likely do the
> experiment myself (when I have more time), because it's clear now that
> everyone here realizes what will happen, and they don't want to pay AND
> look foolish.

Please, post a detailed list of the expenses you forsee in undertaking
this experiment, if it totals only a few hundred dollars, I am sure we
can take up a collection among your debunkers and send you the money.
It will be wasted, because you will never be able to conduct such a
study for so little money.

I personally have no idea what will happen in your study, because I
don't understand what you are trying to prove, nor do I understand how
your study as defined, could possibly control for the affect you are
looking for.

> You can't say that my experiment is ridiculous because these are the
> experiments that have been used to justify consuming large amounts of
> very dangerous substances since 1930 - they use rats, cats, mice, etc.

I don't defend these old studies.  The 97 study review I posted
reviewed HUMAN mortality data.

> So, if you want this to be a scientific forum, as it is supposed to be,
> start citing some evidence and explain what you think the results mean.

I have.  You ignore it.

>  Do not tell me what someone else thinks it means.  If you don't
> understand it and must rely on someone else's opinion of it, then why
> are you posting here.  Just cite the abstract.

I have.

>  As least that
> ironjustice guy usually cites the abstracts will little or no
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> have invented a language of "markers," "endpoints," and "associations"
> which allows them to come to whatever conclusions they like.

In the end, human mortality is all that matters, and the review I've
cited has found no evidence of any negative effects of EFAs on human
mortality.  Let me repeat, you will NOT die sooner from consumption of
EFAs.  So your claim is utterly baseless.  I don't care what
speculative EFA molecular chemistry you claim harms human beings, the
data shows no harmful effects on human mortality, in fact the opposite
is true.

>  They
> sometimes even change the "endpoint" when the results contradict what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to point out how the shell game is played, and to show people what the
> scientific reality appears to be.

> So, unless you are a poor man, there is no reason for you not to begin
> negotiations with me on how are experiment will be conducted.
>
> I am waiting...

I am waiting for the answers to my questions.
MMu - 27 Sep 2005 16:14 GMT
>> This is
>> ridiculous.  I am objective.  If there is one such study, I want to see
>> it.
>
> Then look them up.

montygram has a very serious issue with that 1930's study.
he thinks that research has stopped in the 30's and there has no study been
published until now..
its really amazing how he constantly preaches how he is able to use pubmed
to find.. well, whatever he thinks prooves his point, but is acting
hysterically blind to any research done on fish oil.

>> And how is it that two substances that interfere with each other are
>> both "essential."

Another classic example of a statement by someone without any idea of
biochemistry.

>> I am confident that we can agree on terms.  If you do not have
>> much money we will use 100 mice, which will likely cost less than 50
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> for the mice.  You need people to gather data in a controlled and
> scientific manner.

I told him that so many times.. but good old monty believes that all you
need is the animals and they will somehow take care of the study
themselves.. its really amazing that this guy seriously tries to preach to
others about "scientific method" when its more than obvious he is absolutely
clueless when it comes to planning an experiment even in the most simple
form.
montygram - 27 Sep 2005 22:26 GMT
Let's be clear about your positions:

1. Is there "rapid turnover of DHA in the human brain," as "EFA
experts" claim, or not?  If so, how do people who do not consume flax,
oily fish, canola, etc. get enough DHA?  Does it magically appear
somehow?  How am I getting enough of this DHA?  If a person like
myself, who avoids all sources of omega 3 PUFAs, is getting enough, why
would anyone need to tell the general public that they need to
supplement with  flax, fish oil, etc?  I am asking a scientific
question, but you are not providing a scientific explanation, nor any
on point experimental data to support it.

2.  If you think that any experiment I propose is flawed, then this
must mean that Burr & Burr is flawed, yes or no?  If so, then you must
also conclude that a correctly designed experiment needs to be
conducted now in order to put this claim to the test, yes or no?  I am
only saying that if Burr and Burr were repeated, except using fresh
coconut oil instead of no fat at all, then we would know if fat is
essential, or if specific fatty acid moleclues are.  You have not
explained why this is an unscientific idea.  Until you do, the only
reasonable conclusion is that you are deluded (for whatever reason) or
are industry shills (perhaps both).

3.  I am not citing the 1930, but the professional nutritional
literaure is.  When they stop citing it and instead cite another study,
I will then examine that study.  You are correct, in a sense, in that
the evidence since 1930 demonstrates that omega 3 and 6 PUFAs are very
dangerous, especially in how they are consumed in Western nations.  The
proponents of the "EFA" claim point to Burr & Burr (1930), not me, but
I can only examine what they put forth to suppor their claims.
Otherwise, I have presented dozens if not hundreds of studies that
support my claims.  You have placed the cart before an invisible horse
here.

4.  What is the "EFA deficiency produced in animals?"  It is the same
as B6 deficiency, which was not known in 1930.  And how are fat soluble
vitamins going to be absorbed on a totally no fat diet?  Why won't you
address these basic points?  Again, you must be psychologically
deranged (from too much arachidonic acid in your body) or else you are
industry shills (how do you like it when someone makes such claims
about you?).

5.  My experiment offer is not at all vague - it is a repeat of Burr &
Burr (1930) with one substitution.  If you cannot understand that, then
you are beyond science - you need remedial education.  But the question
you all need to answer is: if I can puposely avoid omega 3 and 6 PUFA,
with the exception of the tiny amount of omega 6s in things like
coconut, then why should anyone take supplements?  This is a basic
question that everyone can understand, and yet you won't address it.

So who will take me up on my offer to repeat Burr & Burr, substituting
fresh coconut oil for no fat, and accepting overall mortality as the
"endpoint?"

Again, I am waiting...
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Sep 2005 01:39 GMT
> "A Reply to Ray Peat
> on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency"
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Mead acid.  And why can't she cite one on point experiment that is
> not terribly flawed?]

COMMENT:

What part of "they exist in virtually all foods" was it that you didn't
understand, Monty?

Who are these people who you think supposedly didn't consume omega-3
EFAs in "decades," ---- and how did they manage THAT? They would need
to subsist entirely on coconut oil as their ONLY fat to do this, to
have a prayer of going about it with any kind of natural diet (since
coconut oil is the only oil I can find which has w-3 levels too low to
measure), and I can't imagine how these people you're talking about,
would even begin to make up a diet where the ONLY fat is coconut oil.

What would the rest of their diet be like? It would have to be
semi-synthetic, consisting of vitamins, minerals, cellulose, separated
protein like casein (and de-fatted protein as well), and be free of all
plant matter. Are we to assume that's how YOU'VE been living? Eating
that kind of diet?  If not, you've been getting w-3 with the rest of
your plant oils.

Even palm oil has a trace of w-3 in it, so I'm not beting than coconut
has absolutely none. And coconut is 2% w-6, which is probably enough to
keep you from w-6 deficiency right there.

In any case, unless your ancestors lived on semi-synthetic diets in
which ALL fat had been relentlessly replaced by coconut oil, I don't
think we safetly conclude they should have suffered from classical EFA
w-3 deficiency. And as I said before, if your grandma was sneaking
walnuts occasionally, all bets are off.

SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Sep 2005 06:58 GMT
> Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by
> feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> a strong inhibitor of what is truly needed in pregnant animals, that
> is, biochemical activity.

COMMENT:

Hydrogenated coconut oil is used in order to induce w-6 and w-3
deficiency at the same time. Something that shouldn't bother you, since
you think neither of them is essential for adult animals.

But in the dog experiment already cited, the very unusual
atherosclerotic processes induced in the EFA deficient animals were
prevented by feeding them just a little PUFA containing vegetable oil
ADDED to their hydrogenated coconut oil atherogenic diet. That pretty
much destroys all hypothesizing about nickel or some toxin in
hydrogenated coconut oil. You don't get rid of all effects of a toxin
by adding a little EFA. You can only demonstrate *deficiency* of some
vital nutrient by showing that the effects go away by simple *addition*
of the vital ingredient to the diet.

Unless you'd like to argue that there's some undiscovered chemical in
small amounts of PUFA vegetable oil that is essential to dogs, but IS
NOT essential fatty acid(s)?  This really would be rich.

SBH
George Cherry - 24 Sep 2005 18:42 GMT
>> Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by
>> feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> small amounts of PUFA vegetable oil that is essential to dogs, but IS
> NOT essential fatty acid(s)?  This really would be rich.

Dammit, how many answers do you have to give
to get this guy over his delusions about EFAs?

George
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 25 Sep 2005 09:14 GMT
> >> Scientists have induced EFA deficiency in animals by
> >> feeding them fully hydrogenated coconut oil as their
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> George

COMMENT:

Apparently there are no limits. He has what is known in the trades as
an idee fixe or a fixed delusion, and there's no arguing with it. He
thinks his grandparents never got any w-3, even though we know what's
essentially impossible unless they were on hyper-al, and he thinks the
various animal experiments which produced EFA deficiency in animals and
cells are due to some wierd toxicity of hydrogenated coconut oil, even
though the weird toxicity is ameliorated as completely as symptoms of
scury, when you add a teaspoon of lime juice a day. Which should tell
even the doltest of dolts that there's something essential in the lime
juice. And in this case, since our lime juice is PUFA containing plant
oils, draw your own conflusions. They work on cells in dishes, too,
dying not because their fats are hydrogenated coconut oil, but because
they've been given no fat at all. They make mead acid, but it doesn't
save them. PUFAs do. Monty ignores this.

Monty can't think, is the problem. He is unable to inductively reason
about this subject. Playfully, I hypothesize that it's because his
brain is apparently a bit short of needed best amounts of EFAs, so it
doesn't work optimally. It's a sort of chicken and egg problem, really,
to get him to realize the problem. He can't get his brain to work till
he takes EFAs, and until his brain works, he won't take EFAs. I think
if somebody just spiked his diet with Canola for a month, he'd be a new
man. Certainly a less mechanical one. At the moment I'm beginning to
wonder if EFA deficient people really pass the Turing test.

SBH
ChloeC - 01 Aug 2009 00:25 GMT
Well, I think you did a wonderful job deciphering Enig's article.  I'm no
scientist; but I definitely get what you're saying about how it's an illusion
that the things supposedly caused by an "EFA" deficiency are most likely from
other things (like Vitamin A, as you had mentioned) not presented in a study.

I find it interesting that people do eat unsaturated fats and live long - but,
there are most likely other factors in their diets.  Doesn't vitamin E play a
large role in a diet, such as if unsaturated fats will remain in the system
or not?  Surely there is more logic behind these explanations.  Including
metabolic rate and thyroid function in conjunction to that..as well as any
other vitamin and mineral's effects and even lifestyle factors.  
I mean, people must live long for the basic reasoning that they don't have
unsaturated lipids in them, and they do have good hormonal balance..thyroid
function..etc. if not, probably catching some disease and getting treated
with machines and medications to keep them alive.  

Anyway..I want to condone you for this.  I've just started to get into Ray
Peat's philosophy and really take his advice with diet.  I'm hoping for good
results, as it's the most logic I've seen on diet yet.  I admire the
philosophy behind hormones and thyroid.
Thanks
 
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