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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2005No B-12 in Plant Food. No Problem.
The only essential vitamin, mineral, protein, or fatty acid not present in plant food is vitamin B-12. How can vegans solve this nutritional problem? There is no problem--if vegetarians and vegans take a few simple and inexpensive precautions. See below. (Note: Older meat-eaters are just as much in danger of B-12 deficiency, because up to 30% of people ages 50 and over suffer from a thinning of the stomach lining--which reduces their ability to extract B-12 from animal sources.) 1. Vegetarians and vegans should take a multivitamin every day. B-12 supplementation is very inexpensive; and you can take a lot of the supplement without danger. (Even very large doses of B-12 don't appear to pose any danger.) 2. A healthy person's liver can store up to a five-year supply of B-12. NOTE WELL: this fact indicates that our ancestors ate meat only occasionally. They were gatherers-gatherers-gatherers-gatherers (hunters)-- not hunter-gatherers. 3. Vegans can eat tempeh, which is made from fermented soybeans (the bacteria produce the B-12). Of course, this makes them "bacteria vegans". : o ) But they still ought to take a B-12 supplement. P.S. I personally am not a vegan. I eat organic yogurt, occasionally an egg white, whole baby clams, and occasionally sardines. When I eat eggs, I eat them from "Certified Humane Raised and Handled" sources. My research into clams has assured me that they are not sentient creatures in any serious sense of sentient. Sardines swim free in the ocean until they are netted. Oh yes, I also take Menhaden fish oil capsules. That's as cruel as I get. George >1. Vegetarians and vegans should take a multivitamin >every day. B-12 supplementation is very inexpensive; >and you can take a lot of the supplement without >danger. (Even very large doses of B-12 don't appear >to pose any danger.) Are the supplements from vegetarian sources and if so how effective are they? >2. A healthy person's liver can store up to a five-year >supply of B-12. NOTE WELL: this fact indicates that >our ancestors ate meat only occasionally. They were >gatherers-gatherers-gatherers-gatherers (hunters)-- >not hunter-gatherers. Huh? Our ability to store enough B-12 to last five years means that our ancestors didn't eat much meat? That "fact" only indicates that we are capable of storing B-12 for five years and nothing more. The conclusion of the author is pure fiction. LOL. >P.S. I personally am not a vegan. I eat organic yogurt, >occasionally an egg white, whole baby clams, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >are netted. Oh yes, I also take Menhaden fish oil >capsules. That's as cruel as I get. C'mon George, you know you're a closet vegetarian. Come out, come out George! ;o) >George RBR >>1. Vegetarians and vegans should take a multivitamin >>every day. B-12 supplementation is very inexpensive; [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Are the supplements from vegetarian sources and if so how effective > are they? No, they are biosynthesized from bacterial sources. About 30% of meat-eaters over 50 cannot absorb B-12 from animal sources. They must also take the synthetic form of B-12. >>2. A healthy person's liver can store up to a five-year >>supply of B-12. NOTE WELL: this fact indicates that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that we are capable of storing B-12 for five years and nothing more. > The conclusion of the author is pure fiction. LOL. Why would evolution have selected for livers that could store vitamin B-12 for five years if our ancestors ate meat every five days? Evolution has not done any such thing for vitamins, minerals, proteins, or fatty acids available from plants. This suggests that our ancestors ate plant foods frequently and animal foods infrequently. >>P.S. I personally am not a vegan. I eat organic yogurt, >>occasionally an egg white, whole baby clams, and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > C'mon George, you know you're a closet vegetarian. Come out, come out > George! ;o) "Being in the closet" is a metaphor for a private propensity or practice that one is ashamed to admit to one's reference group, significant others, or the public at large. Since my reference group and significant others are smart, wise, compassionate people who are nutritionally knowledgeable and ecologically considerate, why would I want to hide my veganism? Veganism is smart, compassionate, and environmentally sensitive. GWC > About 30% of meat-eaters over 50 cannot absorb > B-12 from animal sources. They must also take the > synthetic form of B-12. which is mostly because of low intrinsic factor and general malabsorption that comes with age, not because they are from "animal sources". vegetarians over 50 have the same problem. > Why would evolution have selected for livers that could > store vitamin B-12 for five years if our ancestors ate meat > every five days? Evolution has not done any such thing > for vitamins, minerals, proteins, or fatty acids available > from plants. This suggests that our ancestors ate plant > foods frequently and animal foods infrequently. This is not a very strong argument.. in the same manner we could ask: why do human not have the ability to utilize cellulose, the most common carbohydrate on earth? ..who says that a selection in that area (B12 storage capacity) ever took place? if we assume that 1) the first mutant that had B12 storage capacity could store more than enough of it and 2) high B12 stores don't pose a problem in the efficiency of an organism there would have never have been any selection pressure. >Why would evolution have selected for livers that could >store vitamin B-12 for five years if our ancestors ate meat >every five days? Evolution has not done any such thing >for vitamins, minerals, proteins, or fatty acids available >from plants. This suggests that our ancestors ate plant >foods frequently and animal foods infrequently. Its suggests squat George. It was the *availability* of meat that determined how much our ancestors ate. During the Ice Age the percentage of animal foods would have been upwards of 60%. Our ancestors (genus Homo) had large brains. The brain is an energy hog which uses around 25% of the total energy consumed. Wasting time and effort stuffing our faces with rabbit food would have been quite detrimental to our development and existence. Sorry, but that wacko theory doesn't fly. >> C'mon George, you know you're a closet vegetarian. Come out, come out >> George! ;o) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >my veganism? Veganism is smart, compassionate, >and environmentally sensitive. You forgot to mention blind and gullible. Vegans, like religious fundamentalists, seem to have a problem with anything that disagrees with their beliefs. Some actually think we are frugivores! Hey, why let facts get in the way of a belief system, eh? ;o) RBR > Sardines swim free in the ocean until they > are netted. Oh yes, I also take Menhaden fish oil > capsules. That's as cruel as I get. > > George I'll take menhaden Oil, and take a statin Pill or two. And add an asprin to The brew. You can't be half-assed Avoiding bypass Surgery. It fries your brain, you see-- Suddenly. (Apologies to Larry Hart, but somebody has to remind people) SBH >> Sardines swim free in the ocean until they >> are netted. Oh yes, I also take Menhaden fish oil [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > (Apologies to Larry Hart, but somebody has to remind people) I also take aspirin (1/2 of an adult aspirin/day). Statins are (you suggested) a "life extension" drug. About two years ago my primary care clinician took me off statins because of "an elevated liver enzyme". Now I do all the things that are supposed to be almost as good as statins. For example, a tbsp of Psyillium Husk Powder with each meal, Take Control, soy protein, oats, okra, eggplant, and almonds. I intend, however, to ask my PCC next time I see her to try me on a low dose of a statin drug. She'll probably say no. Fortunately, I like all the alternative stuff I'm eating, and will keep them up even if I get a low-dose statin. GWC > 3. Vegans can eat tempeh, which is made from > fermented soybeans (the bacteria produce the > B-12). Of course, this makes them "bacteria vegans". : o ) > But they still ought to take a B-12 supplement. Has the bread fermented by yeast any B-12 content ? > P.S. I personally am not a vegan. I eat organic yogurt, > occasionally an egg white, whole baby clams, and > occasionally sardines. When I eat eggs, I eat them > from "Certified Humane Raised and Handled" sources. What is wrong with other brands of eggs ? Kam > George >> 3. Vegans can eat tempeh, which is made from >> fermented soybeans (the bacteria produce the >> B-12). Of course, this makes them "bacteria vegans". : o ) >> But they still ought to take a B-12 supplement. > > Has the bread fermented by yeast any B-12 content ? I wouldn't count on it. Aren't there several kinds of fermented soy? >> P.S. I personally am not a vegan. I eat organic yogurt, >> occasionally an egg white, whole baby clams, and >> occasionally sardines. When I eat eggs, I eat them >> from "Certified Humane Raised and Handled" sources. > > What is wrong with other brands of eggs ? Nutritionally? Probably nothing. I eat "Certified Humane Raised and Handled" eggs because I like the idea of pampered happy hens. I actually think about the hens when I eat the eggs. I've visited the Farm Sanctuary and I really like farm animals. Factory farms are my idea of hell. George > > 3. Vegans can eat tempeh, which is made from > > fermented soybeans (the bacteria produce the > > B-12). Of course, this makes them "bacteria vegans". : o ) > > But they still ought to take a B-12 supplement. > > Has the bread fermented by yeast any B-12 content ? No. Yeast don't make B-12. Along with just about every other nutrient on the planet, there is B-12 in Spirulina. http://www.onlinefitnesstrainer.com/herbs/Spirulina.htm > Along with just about every other nutrient on the planet, there is B-12 > in Spirulina. > > http://www.onlinefitnesstrainer.com/herbs/Spirulina.htm COMMENT: But not as much as you might think, since 5/6ths of the B-12 in spirullina is pseudo-B12 which shows up colormetrically but not on bioassay (so it's not active). And it doesn't usually say which assay is used on the label. It's actually not a suitable vegan source. A far better vegetarian source of B12, if you must have a whole food, is chlorella algae. Though I don't know why it all matters, since all B12 on the commercial supplement market is made in bacteria, anyway-- just like the stuff you get from animal products ultimately was. It's animal-source free. B-12 has been made synthetically by chemists, but at hugh cost, and only as a demo. It's WAY too complicated to synthesize artificially for any purpose it's used for. SBH J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Nov;47(11):4736-41. Pseudovitamin B(12) is the predominant cobamide of an algal health food, spirulina tablets. Watanabe F, Katsura H, Takenaka S, Fujita T, Abe K, Tamura Y, Nakatsuka T, Nakano Y. Department of Health Science, Kochi Women's University, Kochi 780-8515, Japan. watanabe@cc.kochi-wu.ac.jp The vitamin B(12) concentration of an algal health food, spirulina (Spirulina sp.) tablets, was determined by both Lactobacillus leichmannii ATCC 7830 microbiological and intrinsic factor chemiluminescence methods. The values determined with the microbiological method were approximately 6-9-fold greater in the spirulina tablets than the values determined with the chemiluminescence method. Although most of the vitamin B(12) determined with the microbiological method was derived from various vitamin B(12) substitutive compounds and/or inactive vitamin B(12) analogues, the spirulina contained a small amount of vitamin B(12) active in the binding of the intrinsic factor. Two intrinsic factor active vitamin B(12) analogues (major and minor) were purified from the spirulina tablets and partially characterized. The major (83%) and minor (17%) analogues were identified as pseudovitamin B(12) and vitamin B(12), respectively, as judged from data of TLC, reversed-phase HPLC, (1)H NMR spectroscopy, ultraviolet-visible spectroscopy, and biological activity using L. leichmannii as a test organism and the binding of vitamin B(12) to the intrinsic factor. PMID: 10552882 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ===================== J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2002 Oct;48(5):325-31. Characterization and bioavailability of vitamin B12-compounds from edible algae. Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Kittaka-Katsura H, Ebara S, Miyamoto E. Department of Health Science, Kochi Women's University, Kochi 780-8515, Japan. watanabe@cc.kochi-wu.ac.jp Substantial amounts of vitamin B12 were found in some edible algae (green and purple lavers) and algal health food (chlorella and spirulina ablets) using the Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis ATCC7830 microbiological assay method. Corrinoid-compounds were purified and characterized from these algae to clarify the chemical properties and bioavailability of the algal vitamin B12. True vitamin B12 is the predominate cobamide of green and purple lavers and chlorella tablets. Feeding the purple laver to vitamin B12-deficient rats significantly improved the vitamin B12 status. The results suggest that algal vitamin B12 is a bioavailable source for mammals. Pseudovitamin B12 (an inactive corrinoid) predominated in the spirulina tablets, which are not suitable for use as a vitamin B12 source, especially for vegetarians. algal health food, bioavailability, cobalamin, edible algae, vitamin B12 Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 12656203 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > 2. A healthy person's liver can store up to a five-year > supply of B-12. NOTE WELL: this fact indicates that > our ancestors ate meat only occasionally. They were > gatherers-gatherers-gatherers-gatherers (hunters)-- > not hunter-gatherers. Interesting. That might explain why so many vegans stop after year or two due to health issues.... Mirek > The only essential vitamin, mineral, protein, or > fatty acid not present in plant food is vitamin B-12. True. But there are numerous essential vitamins, minerals, proteins, and fatty acids that are not present in plant food in enough *quantities* to ensure that the subject gets the *optimum* amounts of these important essential vitamins, minerals, proteins, and fatty acids for *optimum* health on a vegan diet. > How can vegans solve this nutritional problem? They can't unless they give up veganisn and eat enough healthy animal source foods. That is the basic reality of veganism. TC >> The only essential vitamin, mineral, protein, or >> fatty acid not present in plant food is vitamin B-12. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > important essential vitamins, minerals, proteins, and fatty acids for > *optimum* health on a vegan diet. Please name one. And would you please cite a reference for optimum amounts? I'm very interested in "optimizing" my health. That's why I eat modest amounts of seafood and take Menhaden fish oil capsules every day (to err on the side of "more than enough"). But I never eat beef, pork, or poultry. >> How can vegans solve this nutritional problem? "This" refers to no vitamin B-12 in plant foods. > They can't unless they give up veganisn and eat enough healthy animal > source foods. Wrong. They can take a vitamin B-12 supplement. That is the basic reality of reality. : o ) > That is the basic reality of veganism. See above. GWC > >> The only essential vitamin, mineral, protein, or > >> fatty acid not present in plant food is vitamin B-12. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > GWC http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15325679&query_hl=10 Odd how you blithely and fanatically support a vegan diet and you are simply unable (or unwilling) to grasp the simple concept of getting optimal amounts of essential nutrients for optimized general health. As if you can will the need for good nutrition away in order to make the nutrient-deficiencies less relevant. Cherry picking the truth to suit your vegan fanaticism. When you push your cherry-picked "truth" to children and the less well-informed, you become a danger to their health. TC > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15325679&query_hl=10 > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > children and the less well-informed, you become a danger to their > health. While your citation clearly points out that there are multiple dietary deficiencies in low fat vegan diets, George is supplementing fats and is hardly a vegetarian or a vegan since he eats fish. Still, I think his diet sucks. Susan > While your citation clearly points out that there are multiple dietary > deficiencies in low fat vegan diets, George is supplementing fats and is > hardly a vegetarian or a vegan since he eats fish. > > Still, I think his diet sucks. I'm always looking for ways to improve it. While you may be slightly hampered by not knowing all the details of my diet, I suspect you have a pretty good idea of it. Would you mind suggesting the most important one or two things I could do to improve it? George >>While your citation clearly points out that there are multiple dietary >>deficiencies in low fat vegan diets, George is supplementing fats and is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the most important one or two things I could do > to improve it? I don't plan to engage in anything lengthy here, but after decades of experimentation and about 6 years of reading a lot about human health and metabolism, I've changed my diet in ways that have made it far healthier, made me feel much better, and improved my lipid markers and other health concerns dramatically as well. I would encourage you to eat animal protein and fats from grass/range fed (not feedlot) animals and wild fish. Eat lots of high fiber, low GL veggies and some fruits. FTR, I was vegetarian for about 10 years when I was young (a million years ago by now). I also was on the Ornish diet for about a year in my 40s. Never was more unhealthy and uncomfortable in my life, but I didn't make the connection til it was very late in the game. Susan "George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message news:lMKdnV8WWedVJI7eRVn-> I'm always looking for ways to improve it. While > you may be slightly hampered by not knowing > all the details of my diet, I suspect you have a > pretty good idea of it. Would you mind suggesting > the most important one or two things I could do > to improve it? Eat balanced(yes, toss out the cheap sugar products) and exercise. -DF Why must you be so negative and crude all the time? The chemistry of your body must be something right out of a cauldron. You're noxious and obnoxious. > Why must you be so negative and crude all the time? > > The chemistry of your body must be something right out of a cauldron. > > You're noxious and obnoxious. This question was addressed to Susan. H - A Double R - I - D A N spells harridan. This coming from a fanatic Atkins fat muncher. Your head's in you a.s, AGAIN! TC, I don't think George is a "Post Menopausal Woman", as your link discusses. He has a valid question: "Please name one. And would you please cite a reference for optimum amounts? I'm very interested in "optimizing" my health." Please answer him, genius. > TC, I don't think George is a "Post Menopausal Woman", as your link > discusses. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Please answer him, genius. I'm batting a thousand today. TC > TC, I don't think George is a "Post Menopausal Woman", as your link > discusses. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Please answer him, genius. Read the article again. "If considering only food sources of micronutrients, the low-fat vegan group decreased vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium, selenium, phosphorous, and zinc intakes compared with baseline." TC "our ancestors ate meat only occasionally. They were gatherers-gatherers-gatherers-gatherers (hunters)-- not hunter-gatherers." That was a very strong function of latitude. By the time you reach the arctic circle, there is very little left to gather except reindeer moss for tea. (That was where they got their omega-3, as well as from the caribou/reindeer that lived off it.) We're now finding that the genetic ancestors of almost all today's Europeans came from only a bit south of the circle, also all the ancestors of the first peoples of the Americas. |
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