Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2005
EDTA
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Paul - 21 Aug 2005 01:46 GMT Does anyone have experience using EDTA Thanks Paul
Just Cocky - 21 Aug 2005 02:15 GMT >Does anyone have experience using EDTA For what purpose?
Mr-Natural-Health - 21 Aug 2005 05:24 GMT > Does anyone have experience using EDTA Oral EDTA-Chelation Therapy
Now, somebody might actually have a clue as to what you are talking about.
Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 01:17 GMT >> Does anyone have experience using EDTA > > Oral EDTA-Chelation Therapy > > Now, somebody might actually have a clue as to what you are talking > about. EDTA has not been shown to be helpful in preventing heart disease.
Jeff
Just Cocky - 22 Aug 2005 01:28 GMT >>> Does anyone have experience using EDTA >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >EDTA has not been shown to be helpful in preventing heart disease. Research on EDTA chelation is ongoing. See, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15917185&query_hl=1
Pizza Girl. - 22 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT That's just bullshit from another a.shole
WTF do you think a stroke is j.rk off?
> >> Does anyone have experience using EDTA > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jeff Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 03:12 GMT > That's just bullshit from another a.shole. > > WTF do you think a stroke is j.rk off? A stroke is damage to the brain from lack of blood flow, usually from a clot.
The mechanisms of heart disease and stroke are very similar, both involving hardening of the arteries.
And, I don't believe that EDTA has been shown to be beneficial to help stroke or heart disease or prevent either one of them.
Jeff
PS, You should start posting your comment inline. It makes the conversation easier to follow and show respect to your fellow readers. Of course, I am not suggesting that anything you have to say is worthwhile reading.
>> >> Does anyone have experience using EDTA >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Jeff Pizza Girl. - 22 Aug 2005 05:20 GMT You should stop trolling.
> > That's just bullshit from another a.shole. > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> > >> Jeff OmManiPadmeOmelet - 22 Aug 2005 05:35 GMT > You should stop trolling. On the rag again deary?????
 Signature Om.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson
Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 12:33 GMT > You should stop trolling. You should stop top-posting.
However, I am not trolling. I am responding to comments other make. Your calling it trolling doesn't make it so. In fact, I believe you call it trolling because you cannot come up with an intelligent response to what I have to say.
Jeff
>> > That's just bullshit from another a.shole. >> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> >> >> Jeff Pizza Girl. - 21 Aug 2005 14:33 GMT A distant Aunt of mine had a brutal stroke at age 75 and went through injected EDTA chelation therapy. She is currently 85 and does volunteer work with the YMCA and various charity groups. Driving people all over town she says she didn't feel this good at age 16.
The therapy is expensive as the medical gurus have determeined they don't want to pay for the procedure unless it is for lead poisoning. It takes many. many visits over the period of months to years on a depreciating frequency basis.
Ten years later she looks good still.
> Does anyone have experience using EDTA > Thanks > Paul Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 01:19 GMT >A distant Aunt of mine had a brutal stroke at age 75 and went through > injected EDTA chelation therapy. She is currently 85 and does volunteer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The therapy is expensive as the medical gurus have determeined they don't > want to pay for the procedure unless it is for lead poisoning. That is because there is no evidence that the treatment works. It is a waste of time and money. That is why the medical gurus don't want to pay for it.
> It takes > many. many visits over the period of months to years on a depreciating > frequency basis. > > Ten years later she looks good still. I am sure she did many other things besides chelation.
Jeff
>> Does anyone have experience using EDTA >> Thanks >> Paul Pizza Girl. - 22 Aug 2005 02:41 GMT Yes she sat in her wheel chair and slobered a lot while she did mumble therapy. I think the slobbering is the medical way to cure a bad stroke.
Try a better troll 3 out of 10 a.shole
> I am sure she did many other things besides chelation. > > Jeff Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 03:18 GMT > Yes she sat in her wheel chair and slobered a lot while she did mumble > therapy. I think the slobbering is the medical way to cure a bad stroke. > > Try a better troll 3 out of 10 a.shole Thanks for the nice comments. You really show your intelligence with them.
When did you aunt get the EDTA in relationship to her storke? Immediately? A few days after? A few weeks or months after?
What evidence is there that EDTA helps stroke victims?
Thanks.
Jeff
PS, it would be much easier to follow your conversations, if there is anything worth following, if you made your comments in line instead of on top.
>> I am sure she did many other things besides chelation. >> >> Jeff Pizza Girl. - 22 Aug 2005 05:20 GMT Stop troll posting
> > Yes she sat in her wheel chair and slobered a lot while she did mumble > > therapy. I think the slobbering is the medical way to cure a bad stroke. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >> > >> Jeff Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 12:34 GMT > Stop troll posting When I challenge you to provide facts, you call me a "troll." I guess that is your way of trying to wiggle out of a dicussion.
Jeff
>> > Yes she sat in her wheel chair and slobered a lot while she did mumble >> > therapy. I think the slobbering is the medical way to cure a bad [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> >> >> Jeff George Lagergren - 22 Aug 2005 04:52 GMT > A distant Aunt of mine had a brutal stroke at age 75 and went through > injected EDTA chelation therapy. She is currently 85 and does volunteer work > with the YMCA and various charity groups. Driving people all over town she > says she didn't feel this good at age 16. Pizza Girl, I receive health mailings for oral EDTA capsules products all the time.
Pizza Girl. - 22 Aug 2005 05:20 GMT I didn't know it could be taken orally. Is it as effective?
> > A distant Aunt of mine had a brutal stroke at age 75 and went through > > injected EDTA chelation therapy. She is currently 85 and does volunteer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Pizza Girl, I receive health mailings for oral EDTA capsules > products all the time. Robert - 22 Aug 2005 07:15 GMT > I didn't know it could be taken orally. Is it as effective? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Pizza Girl, I receive health mailings for oral EDTA capsules > > products all the time. It's excellent for those Type A blood diet people who eat plant lectins and get agglutinated. The EDTA unagglutinates them.
OmManiPadmeOmelet - 22 Aug 2005 07:59 GMT > > I didn't know it could be taken orally. Is it as effective? > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It's excellent for those Type A blood diet people who eat plant lectins and > get agglutinated. The EDTA unagglutinates them. <lol!>
 Signature Om.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson
Jeff - 22 Aug 2005 12:36 GMT >I didn't know it could be taken orally. Is it as effective? Effective for whom? I suspect that it is effective for the marketing companies, or they would stop sending health mailings. It is not effective for patients, because the EDTA is not absorbed well and because the EDTA does not work to help stroke victims or to prevent or treat heart attacks or stroke.
Jeff
>> > A distant Aunt of mine had a brutal stroke at age 75 and went through >> > injected EDTA chelation therapy. She is currently 85 and does volunteer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Pizza Girl, I receive health mailings for oral EDTA capsules >> products all the time. Pizza Girl. - 23 Aug 2005 00:38 GMT Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings?
> >I didn't know it could be taken orally. Is it as effective? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> Pizza Girl, I receive health mailings for oral EDTA capsules > >> products all the time. Jeff - 23 Aug 2005 03:04 GMT > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? I don't have any "ridiculous rantings." However, I am able to support my position that chelation therapy is dangerous and useless:
http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis t_uids=10874275&dopt=Abstract
Jeff
Triniti - 23 Aug 2005 07:43 GMT > > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jeff The majority of Quackwatch is quacked itself. They aim to discredit anything contrary to the medical establishment and modern medicine. Their basic premise is that any type of *natural* treatment is worthless and fraudulent (quack) because it hasn't been studied. That is absolutely crazy. They don't have anything good to say about anything natural. Some things don't have to be studied. They just work.
They are masters however of building sites and using reciprocal links to come up in the top ten on Google for just about every alternative medicine or related topic you can think of. They debunk it all.
A few products they have debunked, me and some of my family and friends have used with outstanding results. That's why I'm so ticked about their bias and deception. For example, as a result of a homeopathic remedy passed on to me from my mom (RN with homeopathic certs), I haven't had a cold since 1995 and I haven't had the flu since 1999. They were completely cured and then prevented not just relieving the symptoms like with OTC medications. My ex-wife and kids have all been sick several times around me and I wouldn't get sick at all. My ex-wife couldn't swallow pills and my kids were too young at the time to take it. I have passed on this recipe to many others as well and they now live by it. The sad part is other people could be helped too if they knew the truth. I'm just glad I tried the products before I stumbled upon their site. I'm appalled at how they have the nerve to use their MD designation to officially add *weight* to their statements and views. They persuade people out of things before they even try it and can't even deliver the same type of results with their methods. I understand why though...job security.
Here's some good reading information for you. It's not hard to find you just have to swim through the torrent of listings they have monopolized on Google and other search engines.
. http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2003/10/29/opinion_of_the_quackwatch_site.htm
. http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=435&page=0& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
. http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000222.htm
Regards,
Triniti ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- "Some things are true whether you believe them or not." - Nicolas Cage in City of Angels
Jeff - 23 Aug 2005 23:16 GMT >> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > passed on to me from my mom (RN with homeopathic certs), I haven't had a > cold since 1995 and I haven't had the flu since 1999. Please provide peer-reviewed evidence that these things work.
You will also note that I provided additional evidence that chelation doesn't work.
Jeff
(...)
LadyLollipop - 23 Aug 2005 23:45 GMT >>> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Please provide peer-reviewed evidence that these things work. ZZzz.
> You will also note that I provided additional evidence that chelation > doesn't work. > > Jeff I provided evidence it does.
I have provided the pathetic LIES told by *organized medicine* and the FACT they are EVIL and care NOT about suffering people.
http://www.integrative-med.com/TOPICS/subtopics/Chelation_Therapy.html
The Sacred Cow of Bypass Surgeryby James Biddle MD
Today's topic is perhaps the most controversial of all alternative medicaltherapies - Chelation Therapy. What is it? The IV infusion of a syntheticamino acid called EDTA that binds lead and other toxic metals, pulling them outof the body thru the urine.
Why is it so controversial? Because some physicians also use it to treat vascular disease, or clogging of the arteries from cholesterol plaques. Why do conventional physicians get so outraged aboutChelation Therapy?
Because they think it doesn't work for vascular disease.To put this in perspective, let's first look at the usual and customary treatments for heart disease, or clogging of the coronary arteries. The conservative approach is to give medicines like nitrates and beta-blockers todecrease the heart's demand for oxygen, which lessens angina. The next approach is angioplasty, in which a catheter is used to balloon open thenarrowed part of the artery. The last approach is coronary artery bypass grafting, in which segments of the clogged arteries are replaced surgically.These procedures can help decrease symptoms, but are they needed and do they improve survival?
A Harvard group of cardiologists published two studies in JAMA showing that when patients are sent for bypass surgery or angioplasty, 75-80% were judged not to require the procedure upon referral for second opinion. Then, in the journal Circulation, there was no difference in survival between patients randomized to have either bypass surgery or conservative medical treatment.Even worse, the Lancet showed that when patients were randomized to have either angioplasty or conservative medical treatment, the angioplasty group actually had more heart attacks and deaths (6.3%) than the medical group (3.3%).
Therefore, the published data show that these invasive and expensive procedures are 75-80% unjustified and do not improve survival overall.
***On the other hand, studies published in the Journal of Advancement in Medicine show that of 22,765 vascular patients treated with IV Chelation Therapy, 87% had objectively-measured improvements. In addition, 30 patients with narrowing of the carotid artery had an average of 30% improvement by ultrasound after 30 treatments of EDTA. But my favorite study is from Denmark, where they gave IV Chelation Therapy to vascular patients who were already on the waiting list for either bypass surgery or leg amputation. Using IV EDTA, 58 of 65 bypass patients and 24 of 27 amputation patients were able to cancel their surgeriesand walk away.****
With such remarkable data, why is Chelation Therapy not given moreconsideration? I believe the main culprits are publication bias and paradigm boxes.
****You see, the Journal of Advancement in Medicine is not listed in the National Library of Medicine, so the "powers that be" will not consider the data.****
***However, all the journals that are listed have refused to publish any positive studies concerning Chelation Therapy, while they are happy to publish negative studies.****
That's publication bias. A paradigm box is the limitation of our ability to consider a concept or option outside of our current knowledge and training. Physicians truly have the best interests of their patients at heart, but
***they've been fundamentally trained to reject Chelation Therapy,***
***so are generally unwilling or unable to take an honest look at the data.***
***Unfortunately, their paradigm box has been constructed by the huge pharmaceutical giants, who are the sole advertisers of every medical journal listed in the National Library of Medicine.***
I dare to say that they have a vested financial interest in suppressing knowledge of a relatively inexpensive, non-invasive, and non-toxic alternative for treating vascular disease.
****I've seen scores of vascular patients improve dramatically with ChelationTherapy.***
Just as in the studies above,
****I've seen about 80% respond favorably,***
which makes me think that probably 20% of patients actually will benefit from angioplasty or bypass surgery. Maybe if we limit these procedures to those who first fail a trial of Chelation Therapy, we actually can improve survival and also save Medicare from bankruptcy.
tp://www.drcranton.com/chelation/carter.htm
Both the CCHI and the National Council on Health Fraud purport to be scientific and authoritative sources of information. A significant portion of their activities, however, have nothing to do with real quackery, but are rather a means to coerce practitioners of medicine to adhere to practices approved by medical politicians. The end result is to preserve certain monopolistic and economic advantages enjoyed by organized medicine.
An important reason that research into the use of EDTA in the treatment of atherosclerosis and its complications stopped after 1960, until the mid 1980s,was because of an
*** active and vicious campaign of misinformation and unjust harassment of physicians who used EDTA in their practices. Scientific researchers who showed an interest were also discouraged and harassed.***
http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p182.htm#quack
Here is the photo of the man behind the web sitehttp://www.quackwatch.com/index.html. He often attacks various health products and practices by making false claims about them, as if those claims came FROM them, and then knocks down these straw men of his own device.
****One of the most ***evil*** people on the web is a former psychiatrist who lashes out against just about every possible alternative health product or practice. It is, in fact, a hall of fame. If you are mentioned in his pages you can assume you are doing a good job! He attacks chelation therapy, of course, but he selects a "straw man" to attack. In other words, the early explanation of how chelation therapy works is well proven to be false, event hough many people are still repeating those lies. But, the more thoughtful intravenous doctors have discarded this early theory and gone on to the second theory, mentioned on another page (Click Here).After EDTA was found effective in chelating and removing toxic metals from the blood, some scientists postulated that hardened arteries could be softened ifthe calcium in their walls was removed. The first indication that EDTA treatment might benefit patients with atherosclerosis came from Clarke, Clarke,and Mosher, who, in 1956, reported that patients with occlusive peripheralvascular disease said they felt better after treatment with EDTA [AmericanJournal of Medical Science 230:654-666, 1956]. (Source)
http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:
By Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
There exist a number of self-styled medical thought-police types who call themselves "quack busters." They are fond of attacking alternative and emerging medical therapies in favor of the existing medical monopoly. They even have their own Quackwatch Internet website. It is uncertain where the money comes from to fund those efforts, but it might be enlightening to trace that money back to its original source. One investigator alleges that funding comes from pharmaceutical manufacturers.
For years these so-called quackbusters have attacked nutritional supplementation with high potency multi-vitamins as "quackery." As summarized elsewhere on this website (Nutrition In The News), recent scientific studies now prove that virtually anyone can benefit from nutritional supplementation. With egg on their faces from this recent vitamin research, those same critics continue to attack chelation therapy. I will now answer, point by point, an article on the Quackwatch website by Dr. Saul Green entitled "CHELATION THERAPY: UNPROVEN CLAIMS AND UNSOUND THEORIES," in which Dr. Green attempts to discredit EDTA chelation using half-truths, speculation, and false statements.
ALSO Click Here to read:
A MEDICAL SCHOOL PROFESSOR BUSTS THE QUACKBUSTERS
Opponents and critics of EDTA chelation, such as Saul Green, rarely state that chelation "does not work" or that chelation is "proven not to work." Instead they merely state that it is "unproven." They are evasive and set a double standard. Bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and close to 80% of all other therapies routinely used by medical doctors in everyday practice are also "unproven," using those same unreasonable standards. Most widely-accepted and traditional medical therapies have never been subjected to double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials costing many millions of dollars?as demanded by opponents of chelation therapy.
Detractors of chelation therapy insist that large, multimillion-dollar studies be performed, giving half the patients a placebo, with the placebo group "blinded"?unknown to the investigators until the study is complete (called "double-blind" because neither the doctors nor the patients know who gets the placebo and who gets the active medication). Drug companies are required by the FDA to test new prescription drugs in this manner before they can make marketing claims. On the other hand, bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and most other widely accepted medical procedures have never been subjected to that type of testing. Because patent protection has long since expired on EDTA, there is no source of funding for such a study. N.I.H., the government source for research money, has repeatedly refused to fund a research grant to study EDTA chelation.
Saul Green makes an issue of an FTC ruling in 1998 relating to advertising for EDTA chelation therapy. Because the FDA has not yet approved EDTA chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerosis, the FTC ruled that it is not proper to imply otherwise in advertisements to the lay public. The informed consent provided to patients by chelation doctors has always made that fact clear, but once again politically powerful critics of chelation therapy have generated adverse publicity, using what was essentially a non-issue. That FTC ruling was based partly on their opinion that professional physicians associations, such as the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM), should not advertise directly to the lay public. The FTC ruling does not apply to the doctor patient relationship. Training courses on chelation therapy continue to be given to practicing physicians twice yearly by ACAM.
Drug companies quickly patent their newly developed remedies, which allows them to charge high prices (usually a dollar or more per capsule, sometimes much more) to recapture their millions of dollars in expenses for the FDA-required double blind studies. EDTA is a generic drug. Patent protection expired many years ago. Double-blind placebo studies of adequate size have therefore never been funded and probably will not be funded in the future unless N.I.H. or a private foundation can be convinced to do so with either public or philanthropic funds. (In 2002 a $30 million research proposal for a multi-center study of EDTA chelation therapy is under consideration by N.I.H. Let's all hope that it gets funded.)
Many highly positive smaller studies have been published proving EDTA chelation therapy, reporting objective measurements of before and after improvements. Statistical analyses of those improvements are highly significant. Summaries of those studies can be read on the following webpage: Chelation Research. A chapter from my recent book, Bypassing Bypass Surgery, summarizes the vast amount of research supporting EDTA chelation therapy.
Those studies that support EDTA chelation are good science and are scientifically valid. Only if it is assumed that placebo effect could cause long-term, sustained increases in objective blood flow measurements to the brain, heart and extremities through diseased arteries can those studies be ignored. Placebo effect has never been observed to last more than 6 months. Benefit from chelation therapy comes on slowly; increasing for 3 to 5 months after treatment is complete and persisting for years after a course of therapy. Placebo benefit has never acted that way.
Saul Green's quackbuster attack on chelation therapy states that those published studies are poorly designed and therefore meaningless. I challenge any educated lay reader to review those studies and not be impressed. It always desirable to have bigger and better studies. There is always room for improvement. That same statement could be made about any study ever published. All of the existing clinical data is positive and highly significant on statistical analysis. Independent researchers, at different research facilities, using different technology, were able to duplicate the positive findings of increased blood flow through blocked arteries. Statistical analysis continues to show consistent high significance.
The bypass surgery and balloon angioplasty industries gross upwards of $6 billion per year. The cardiovascular drug industry takes in upwards of $100 billion dollars per year. If the existing studies of chelation therapy were to be accepted as valid, those industries would suffer enormous losses. They have no reason to want to see chelation therapy accepted.
In recent years opponents of chelation have published several a number of small sham studies, falsely alleging that EDTA chelation does not work. In every instance those studies were actually supportive of EDTA chelation therapy, but they contained an erroneous conclusion otherwise. Click here for an analysis of deceptive studies. The recent PATCH study in Calgary, Canada, is a truly blatant example of that practice. That kind of junk science proves nothing, and the studies cited actually contain evidence to support EDTA chelation therapy. Nonetheless, they are quickly published in mainstream medical journals, interspersed with full-page, four-color advertisements for new and expensive pharmaceutical drugs. The news media then prominently print articles stating that EDTA chelation therapy has been proven not to work.
A wise consumer will review all existing sources of information and then make up his or her own mind about what is best. A Ford salesman will most likely tell you that a Ford is superior to a Chevrolet and vice versa. Consumers should be allowed to decide what feels right for them, without being subjected to a "time-bomb-in-chest" hard-sell, with a high-pressure, frightening sales pitch at a time when they are highly vulnerable. Treadmills and angiograms are very effective and can be frightening marketing tools leading to expensive, dangerous and often unnecessary therapies.
Mark Twain once said that, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." A similar statement could be made about cardiologists, whose only tool is a catheter with balloon attached, or surgeons with their scalpels. The same might also be said of a chelation therapist. Buyer beware! Be an informed consumer. Every therapist has their own bias.
Saul Green writes that the Kitchell, Meltzer reappraisal study in 1963 showed no significant benefit. I have described their exact data on the following webpage: Chelation Critics Deceive the Public. You decide for yourself if you think it shows significant benefit or not. For political, economic and other unknown reasons, researchers occasionally interpret their data in a way that fits their personal prejudices, either positive or negative. When an unbiased, objective appraisal is made of that same data, the opposite conclusion can sometimes be supported. That has happened repeatedly with chelation therapy. The facts are presented (Chelation Critics Deceive the Public) to enable readers to form their own opinions.
Saul Green states that chelation is "not recognized by the scientific community." That is not true unless it is assumed that the many highly trained physicians who administer chelation therapy are not scientific. He engages in name-calling. Doctors who disagree with Saul Green are called unscientific. Various segments of the medical community join together in professional associations with the goal of protecting their turf and maintaining a monopoly in their field as much as possible. It is not justified for one such group to state that other medical scientists who disagree are "unscientific." This merely represents a disagreement between experts, between differing factions of the medical profession-a common occurrence in any profession. Emerging, complimentary and alternative therapies often confront that type of bias.
Saul Green writes that at least fifteen different reports document that EDTA did not benefit patients. That is not true! For the most part, he cites letters to the editor, which report an occasional treatment failure. No therapy is 100% effective and treatment failures do occur with EDTA. However, more than 85% of patients have been helped. These anecdotal reports of treatment failures are used by critics, but anecdotal reports of treatment success are rejected by critics. This represents more evidence of the double standard. Saul Green also misrepresents the the unscientific studies previously mentioned as documenting that EDTA chelation does not work, Chelation Critics Deceive the Public.
Arteriograms before and after treatment are demanded by critics to prove benefit from chelation therapy. It is not possible, however, to accurately measure decreases in atherosclerotic plaque unless the diameter of the artery is increased by approximately 25%. In the presence of turbulent blood flow past plaques, it requires only a 10% increase in arterial diameter to double the flow of blood (Poiseuille's Law of hemodynamics as can be found in any textbook of medical physiology or biophysics). As proven in studies, arteriograms and ultrasound are not sensitive enough to consistently measure changes of less than 25% in the diameter of a blood vessel. Increases much less than that can greatly relieve or totally eliminate symptoms, and are not detectable on arteriograms. Studies which measure heart and organ function and total blood flow consistently prove that EDTA chelation therapy is highly beneficial.
If patients improve their physical endurance, if exercise tolerance increases and if symptoms improve, that provides good scientific evidence of benefit. If measurements of walking distance on a treadmill with an uphill incline consistently increase after treatment and with statistical significance, that is valid scientific proof of benefit. Angiograms are not sensitive enough to measure even a doubling in blood flow. Angiograms are marketing tools frequently used to justify bypass surgery and balloon angioplasty; however, angiograms cannot show increases in arterial diameter that can increase blood flow by 200% or more. They do, however, show the surgeons where to cut and are necessary to place a balloon or stent in angioplasty. And sometimes those procedures are necessary.
Saul Green is in error when he states that the Curt Diehm study in Germany did not show benefit. The raw data from that study has been analyzed by medical school professors in the United States and found to be highly positive, as documented in detail on the following webpage: Critique of the Heidelberg Study. Patients who received EDTA increased their walking distance by an average of 400%, compared to 60% increase in the control group patients, who received an active drug, not a placebo. The manufacturer of the control drug funded the study and reserved the right to manipulate and report the data in their own way. Patients who responded best were eliminated from the final data. Final results were measured immediately, 3 months before full improvement from EDTA could be expected. Analysis of raw data from that study proves that EDTA chelation therapy was highly effective in treating arterial blockage in the legs.
The adverse side effects described by Saul Green were reported many years ago when massive doses of EDTA were infused in a very short time. Any medicine given in overdose can cause harm. There are no documented reports of harm when EDTA has been administered using the currently approved protocol. In rare reports of adverse side-effects, the current protocol was not followed. Even when administered improperly, 10 deaths in a million patients indicates that chelation is infinitely safer than surgery or balloon angioplasty, which result in death from complications in approximately 3 out of every hundred patients treated.
Fifty thousand people die in automobile accidents every year and another 200,000 are seriously injured. I tell my patients that the drive to the clinic in an automobile to get chelation therapy is statistically far more dangerous that the chelation they receive after they arrive. More than 8,000 deaths and 200,000 hospitalizations each year result from complications of ibuprofen, naproxen, aspirin and other widely accepted pain remedies, many of which are available without prescription. EDTA chelation therapy is infinitely safer than even those treatments. Critics of chelation therapy never put things in proper perspective.
Saul Green goes on to speculate about a number of theoretical reasons why chelation therapy might possibly be dangerous. He completely ignores the amazing safety record of a million patients who have received the therapy. The dangers of surgery and angioplasty are well proven, not just theoretical?three percent death rate and twenty percent or more serious but non-fatal complications. It is not necessary to merely speculate why invasive procedures might possibly cause harm. Saul Green's statements about why chelation might be dangerous have not been supported by more than 40 years of experience.
The Danish study mentioned by Saul Green was misrepresented and proved nothing. It was actually a positive study and showed benefit from chelation therapy.
Saul Green states that the FDA once had EDTA chelation on their list of "Health Care Frauds." The FDA has long since removed chelation therapy from that list, and for good reason. Why did they do that?
In my opinion, it is a beneficial and highly cost effective therapy.
BE SURE TO READ:
If EDTA Chelation Therapy is so Good, Why Is It Not More Widely Accepted? by Dr. James P. Carter, MD, DrPH
A Professor of Cardiology Critiques Bypass Surgery.
Chelation Critics Deceive the Public by Elmer M. Cranton, MD
ttp://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=166
PATIENTS CANCEL BYPASS SURGERIES AFTER EDTA TREATMENTS It is common place for physicians to help heart disease patients who have failed all the standard treatments to make remarkable - even unbelievable - recoveries, once given EDTA. Many patients on waiting lists for bypass surgery have found, after a series of EDTA chelation treatments, that they did not need the surgery. One particular study found that when 65 patients who had been on the waiting list for bypass surgery for an average of six months were treated with EDTA, the symptoms in 89% of them improved so much that they canceled their surgery.3
http://www.healingdaily.com/oral-chelation/oral-edta-chelation.htm
EDTA removes toxic metals from the blood. Studies have shown that as people age they continuously accumulate toxic metals: lead, mercury, aluminum, iron, cadmium, and arsenic, among others. The accrual of these toxins invites an increased risk for various diseases, especially heart disease. The less of these metals we have in our bodies, the more likely we are to be physiologically healthy or simply feel good, and the lower our risk for heart disease. Because EDTA is so effective at removing unwanted metals and other minerals from the blood, it has been the standard, FDA-approved treatment for lead, mercury, aluminum, and cadmium poisoning for more than 50 years. EDTA normalizes the distribution of most metallic elements in the body.
Jeff - 24 Aug 2005 01:25 GMT >>>> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > I have provided the pathetic LIES told by *organized medicine* and the > FACT they are EVIL and care NOT about suffering people. Copyrighted material deleted.
One unpublished study supposedly supported the use of EDTA.
The overwhelming evidence supports the nothing that EDTA does nothing to help with arterial disease. And there is very little theoretical evidence to suggest otherwise.
Until you can support your claims with real data, I will not waste my time or electrons in this thread. You're not worth it.
Jeff
LadyLollipop - 24 Aug 2005 04:27 GMT ---snip---
>>>>> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> I have provided the pathetic LIES told by *organized medicine* and the >> FACT they are EVIL and care NOT about suffering people. http://www.integrative-med.com/TOPICS/subtopics/Chelation_Therapy.html
The Sacred Cow of Bypass Surgeryby James Biddle MD
Today's topic is perhaps the most controversial of all alternative medicaltherapies - Chelation Therapy. What is it? The IV infusion of a syntheticamino acid called EDTA that binds lead and other toxic metals, pulling them outof the body thru the urine.
Why is it so controversial? Because some physicians also use it to treat vascular disease, or clogging of the arteries from cholesterol plaques. Why do conventional physicians get so outraged aboutChelation Therapy?
Because they think it doesn't work for vascular disease.To put this in perspective, let's first look at the usual and customary treatments for heart disease, or clogging of the coronary arteries. The conservative approach is to give medicines like nitrates and beta-blockers todecrease the heart's demand for oxygen, which lessens angina. The next approach is angioplasty, in which a catheter is used to balloon open thenarrowed part of the artery. The last approach is coronary artery bypass grafting, in which segments of the clogged arteries are replaced surgically.These procedures can help decrease symptoms, but are they needed and do they improve survival?
A Harvard group of cardiologists published two studies in JAMA showing that when patients are sent for bypass surgery or angioplasty, 75-80% were judged not to require the procedure upon referral for second opinion. Then, in the journal Circulation, there was no difference in survival between patients randomized to have either bypass surgery or conservative medical treatment.Even worse, the Lancet showed that when patients were randomized to have either angioplasty or conservative medical treatment, the angioplasty group actually had more heart attacks and deaths (6.3%) than the medical group (3.3%).
Therefore, the published data show that these invasive and expensive procedures are 75-80% unjustified and do not improve survival overall.
***On the other hand, studies published in the Journal of Advancement in Medicine show that of 22,765 vascular patients treated with IV Chelation Therapy, 87% had objectively-measured improvements. In addition, 30 patients with narrowing of the carotid artery had an average of 30% improvement by ultrasound after 30 treatments of EDTA. But my favorite study is from Denmark, where they gave IV Chelation Therapy to vascular patients who were already on the waiting list for either bypass surgery or leg amputation. Using IV EDTA, 58 of 65 bypass patients and 24 of 27 amputation patients were able to cancel their surgeriesand walk away.****
With such remarkable data, why is Chelation Therapy not given moreconsideration? I believe the main culprits are publication bias and paradigm boxes.
****You see, the Journal of Advancement in Medicine is not listed in the National Library of Medicine, so the "powers that be" will not consider the data.****
***However, all the journals that are listed have refused to publish any positive studies concerning Chelation Therapy, while they are happy to publish negative studies.****
That's publication bias. A paradigm box is the limitation of our ability to consider a concept or option outside of our current knowledge and training. Physicians truly have the best interests of their patients at heart, but
***they've been fundamentally trained to reject Chelation Therapy,***
***so are generally unwilling or unable to take an honest look at the data.***
***Unfortunately, their paradigm box has been constructed by the huge pharmaceutical giants, who are the sole advertisers of every medical journal listed in the National Library of Medicine.***
I dare to say that they have a vested financial interest in suppressing knowledge of a relatively inexpensive, non-invasive, and non-toxic alternative for treating vascular disease.
****I've seen scores of vascular patients improve dramatically with ChelationTherapy.***
Just as in the studies above,
****I've seen about 80% respond favorably,***
which makes me think that probably 20% of patients actually will benefit from angioplasty or bypass surgery. Maybe if we limit these procedures to those who first fail a trial of Chelation Therapy, we actually can improve survival and also save Medicare from bankruptcy.
tp://www.drcranton.com/chelation/carter.htm
Both the CCHI and the National Council on Health Fraud purport to be scientific and authoritative sources of information. A significant portion of their activities, however, have nothing to do with real quackery, but are rather a means to coerce practitioners of medicine to adhere to practices approved by medical politicians. The end result is to preserve certain monopolistic and economic advantages enjoyed by organized medicine.
An important reason that research into the use of EDTA in the treatment of atherosclerosis and its complications stopped after 1960, until the mid 1980s,was because of an
*** active and vicious campaign of misinformation and unjust harassment of physicians who used EDTA in their practices. Scientific researchers who showed an interest were also discouraged and harassed.***
http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p182.htm#quack
Here is the photo of the man behind the web sitehttp://www.quackwatch.com/index.html. He often attacks various health products and practices by making false claims about them, as if those claims came FROM them, and then knocks down these straw men of his own device.
****One of the most ***evil*** people on the web is a former psychiatrist who lashes out against just about every possible alternative health product or practice. It is, in fact, a hall of fame. If you are mentioned in his pages you can assume you are doing a good job! He attacks chelation therapy, of course, but he selects a "straw man" to attack. In other words, the early explanation of how chelation therapy works is well proven to be false, event hough many people are still repeating those lies. But, the more thoughtful intravenous doctors have discarded this early theory and gone on to the second theory, mentioned on another page (Click Here).After EDTA was found effective in chelating and removing toxic metals from the blood, some scientists postulated that hardened arteries could be softened ifthe calcium in their walls was removed. The first indication that EDTA treatment might benefit patients with atherosclerosis came from Clarke, Clarke,and Mosher, who, in 1956, reported that patients with occlusive peripheralvascular disease said they felt better after treatment with EDTA [AmericanJournal of Medical Science 230:654-666, 1956]. (Source)
http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:
By Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
There exist a number of self-styled medical thought-police types who call themselves "quack busters." They are fond of attacking alternative and emerging medical therapies in favor of the existing medical monopoly. They even have their own Quackwatch Internet website. It is uncertain where the money comes from to fund those efforts, but it might be enlightening to trace that money back to its original source. One investigator alleges that funding comes from pharmaceutical manufacturers.
For years these so-called quackbusters have attacked nutritional supplementation with high potency multi-vitamins as "quackery." As summarized elsewhere on this website (Nutrition In The News), recent scientific studies now prove that virtually anyone can benefit from nutritional supplementation. With egg on their faces from this recent vitamin research, those same critics continue to attack chelation therapy. I will now answer, point by point, an article on the Quackwatch website by Dr. Saul Green entitled "CHELATION THERAPY: UNPROVEN CLAIMS AND UNSOUND THEORIES," in which Dr. Green attempts to discredit EDTA chelation using half-truths, speculation, and false statements.
ALSO Click Here to read:
A MEDICAL SCHOOL PROFESSOR BUSTS THE QUACKBUSTERS
Opponents and critics of EDTA chelation, such as Saul Green, rarely state that chelation "does not work" or that chelation is "proven not to work." Instead they merely state that it is "unproven." They are evasive and set a double standard. Bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and close to 80% of all other therapies routinely used by medical doctors in everyday practice are also "unproven," using those same unreasonable standards. Most widely-accepted and traditional medical therapies have never been subjected to double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials costing many millions of dollars?as demanded by opponents of chelation therapy.
Detractors of chelation therapy insist that large, multimillion-dollar studies be performed, giving half the patients a placebo, with the placebo group "blinded"?unknown to the investigators until the study is complete (called "double-blind" because neither the doctors nor the patients know who gets the placebo and who gets the active medication). Drug companies are required by the FDA to test new prescription drugs in this manner before they can make marketing claims. On the other hand, bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and most other widely accepted medical procedures have never been subjected to that type of testing. Because patent protection has long since expired on EDTA, there is no source of funding for such a study. N.I.H., the government source for research money, has repeatedly refused to fund a research grant to study EDTA chelation.
Saul Green makes an issue of an FTC ruling in 1998 relating to advertising for EDTA chelation therapy. Because the FDA has not yet approved EDTA chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerosis, the FTC ruled that it is not proper to imply otherwise in advertisements to the lay public. The informed consent provided to patients by chelation doctors has always made that fact clear, but once again politically powerful critics of chelation therapy have generated adverse publicity, using what was essentially a non-issue. That FTC ruling was based partly on their opinion that professional physicians associations, such as the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM), should not advertise directly to the lay public. The FTC ruling does not apply to the doctor patient relationship. Training courses on chelation therapy continue to be given to practicing physicians twice yearly by ACAM.
Drug companies quickly patent their newly developed remedies, which allows them to charge high prices (usually a dollar or more per capsule, sometimes much more) to recapture their millions of dollars in expenses for the FDA-required double blind studies. EDTA is a generic drug. Patent protection expired many years ago. Double-blind placebo studies of adequate size have therefore never been funded and probably will not be funded in the future unless N.I.H. or a private foundation can be convinced to do so with either public or philanthropic funds. (In 2002 a $30 million research proposal for a multi-center study of EDTA chelation therapy is under consideration by N.I.H. Let's all hope that it gets funded.)
Many highly positive smaller studies have been published proving EDTA chelation therapy, reporting objective measurements of before and after improvements. Statistical analyses of those improvements are highly significant. Summaries of those studies can be read on the following webpage: Chelation Research. A chapter from my recent book, Bypassing Bypass Surgery, summarizes the vast amount of research supporting EDTA chelation therapy.
Those studies that support EDTA chelation are good science and are scientifically valid. Only if it is assumed that placebo effect could cause long-term, sustained increases in objective blood flow measurements to the brain, heart and extremities through diseased arteries can those studies be ignored. Placebo effect has never been observed to last more than 6 months. Benefit from chelation therapy comes on slowly; increasing for 3 to 5 months after treatment is complete and persisting for years after a course of therapy. Placebo benefit has never acted that way.
Saul Green's quackbuster attack on chelation therapy states that those published studies are poorly designed and therefore meaningless. I challenge any educated lay reader to review those studies and not be impressed. It always desirable to have bigger and better studies. There is always room for improvement. That same statement could be made about any study ever published. All of the existing clinical data is positive and highly significant on statistical analysis. Independent researchers, at different research facilities, using different technology, were able to duplicate the positive findings of increased blood flow through blocked arteries. Statistical analysis continues to show consistent high significance.
The bypass surgery and balloon angioplasty industries gross upwards of $6 billion per year. The cardiovascular drug industry takes in upwards of $100 billion dollars per year. If the existing studies of chelation therapy were to be accepted as valid, those industries would suffer enormous losses. They have no reason to want to see chelation therapy accepted.
In recent years opponents of chelation have published several a number of small sham studies, falsely alleging that EDTA chelation does not work. In every instance those studies were actually supportive of EDTA chelation therapy, but they contained an erroneous conclusion otherwise. Click here for an analysis of deceptive studies. The recent PATCH study in Calgary, Canada, is a truly blatant example of that practice. That kind of junk science proves nothing, and the studies cited actually contain evidence to support EDTA chelation therapy. Nonetheless, they are quickly published in mainstream medical journals, interspersed with full-page, four-color advertisements for new and expensive pharmaceutical drugs. The news media then prominently print articles stating that EDTA chelation therapy has been proven not to work.
A wise consumer will review all existing sources of information and then make up his or her own mind about what is best. A Ford salesman will most likely tell you that a Ford is superior to a Chevrolet and vice versa. Consumers should be allowed to decide what feels right for them, without being subjected to a "time-bomb-in-chest" hard-sell, with a high-pressure, frightening sales pitch at a time when they are highly vulnerable. Treadmills and angiograms are very effective and can be frightening marketing tools leading to expensive, dangerous and often unnecessary therapies.
Mark Twain once said that, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." A similar statement could be made about cardiologists, whose only tool is a catheter with balloon attached, or surgeons with their scalpels. The same might also be said of a chelation therapist. Buyer beware! Be an informed consumer. Every therapist has their own bias.
Saul Green writes that the Kitchell, Meltzer reappraisal study in 1963 showed no significant benefit. I have described their exact data on the following webpage: Chelation Critics Deceive the Public. You decide for yourself if you think it shows significant benefit or not. For political, economic and other unknown reasons, researchers occasionally interpret their data in a way that fits their personal prejudices, either positive or negative. When an unbiased, objective appraisal is made of that same data, the opposite conclusion can sometimes be supported. That has happened repeatedly with chelation therapy. The facts are presented (Chelation Critics Deceive the Public) to enable readers to form their own opinions.
Saul Green states that chelation is "not recognized by the scientific community." That is not true unless it is assumed that the many highly trained physicians who administer chelation therapy are not scientific. He engages in name-calling. Doctors who disagree with Saul Green are called unscientific. Various segments of the medical community join together in professional associations with the goal of protecting their turf and maintaining a monopoly in their field as much as possible. It is not justified for one such group to state that other medical scientists who disagree are "unscientific." This merely represents a disagreement between experts, between differing factions of the medical profession-a common occurrence in any profession. Emerging, complimentary and alternative therapies often confront that type of bias.
Saul Green writes that at least fifteen different reports document that EDTA did not benefit patients. That is not true! For the most part, he cites letters to the editor, which report an occasional treatment failure. No therapy is 100% effective and treatment failures do occur with EDTA. However, more than 85% of patients have been helped. These anecdotal reports of treatment failures are used by critics, but anecdotal reports of treatment success are rejected by critics. This represents more evidence of the double standard. Saul Green also misrepresents the the unscientific studies previously mentioned as documenting that EDTA chelation does not work, Chelation Critics Deceive the Public.
Arteriograms before and after treatment are demanded by critics to prove benefit from chelation therapy. It is not possible, however, to accurately measure decreases in atherosclerotic plaque unless the diameter of the artery is increased by approximately 25%. In the presence of turbulent blood flow past plaques, it requires only a 10% increase in arterial diameter to double the flow of blood (Poiseuille's Law of hemodynamics as can be found in any textbook of medical physiology or biophysics). As proven in studies, arteriograms and ultrasound are not sensitive enough to consistently measure changes of less than 25% in the diameter of a blood vessel. Increases much less than that can greatly relieve or totally eliminate symptoms, and are not detectable on arteriograms. Studies which measure heart and organ function and total blood flow consistently prove that EDTA chelation therapy is highly beneficial.
If patients improve their physical endurance, if exercise tolerance increases and if symptoms improve, that provides good scientific evidence of benefit. If measurements of walking distance on a treadmill with an uphill incline consistently increase after treatment and with statistical significance, that is valid scientific proof of benefit. Angiograms are not sensitive enough to measure even a doubling in blood flow. Angiograms are marketing tools frequently used to justify bypass surgery and balloon angioplasty; however, angiograms cannot show increases in arterial diameter that can increase blood flow by 200% or more. They do, however, show the surgeons where to cut and are necessary to place a balloon or stent in angioplasty. And sometimes those procedures are necessary.
Saul Green is in error when he states that the Curt Diehm study in Germany did not show benefit. The raw data from that study has been analyzed by medical school professors in the United States and found to be highly positive, as documented in detail on the following webpage: Critique of the Heidelberg Study. Patients who received EDTA increased their walking distance by an average of 400%, compared to 60% increase in the control group patients, who received an active drug, not a placebo. The manufacturer of the control drug funded the study and reserved the right to manipulate and report the data in their own way. Patients who responded best were eliminated from the final data. Final results were measured immediately, 3 months before full improvement from EDTA could be expected. Analysis of raw data from that study proves that EDTA chelation therapy was highly effective in treating arterial blockage in the legs.
The adverse side effects described by Saul Green were reported many years ago when massive doses of EDTA were infused in a very short time. Any medicine given in overdose can cause harm. There are no documented reports of harm when EDTA has been administered using the currently approved protocol. In rare reports of adverse side-effects, the current protocol was not followed. Even when administered improperly, 10 deaths in a million patients indicates that chelation is infinitely safer than surgery or balloon angioplasty, which result in death from complications in approximately 3 out of every hundred patients treated.
Fifty thousand people die in automobile accidents every year and another 200,000 are seriously injured. I tell my patients that the drive to the clinic in an automobile to get chelation therapy is statistically far more dangerous that the chelation they receive after they arrive. More than 8,000 deaths and 200,000 hospitalizations each year result from complications of ibuprofen, naproxen, aspirin and other widely accepted pain remedies, many of which are available without prescription. EDTA chelation therapy is infinitely safer than even those treatments. Critics of chelation therapy never put things in proper perspective.
Saul Green goes on to speculate about a number of theoretical reasons why chelation therapy might possibly be dangerous. He completely ignores the amazing safety record of a million patients who have received the therapy. The dangers of surgery and angioplasty are well proven, not just theoretical?three percent death rate and twenty percent or more serious but non-fatal complications. It is not necessary to merely speculate why invasive procedures might possibly cause harm. Saul Green's statements about why chelation might be dangerous have not been supported by more than 40 years of experience.
The Danish study mentioned by Saul Green was misrepresented and proved nothing. It was actually a positive study and showed benefit from chelation therapy.
Saul Green states that the FDA once had EDTA chelation on their list of "Health Care Frauds." The FDA has long since removed chelation therapy from that list, and for good reason. Why did they do that?
In my opinion, it is a beneficial and highly cost effective therapy.
BE SURE TO READ:
If EDTA Chelation Therapy is so Good, Why Is It Not More Widely Accepted? by Dr. James P. Carter, MD, DrPH
A Professor of Cardiology Critiques Bypass Surgery.
Chelation Critics Deceive the Public by Elmer M. Cranton, MD
ttp://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=166
PATIENTS CANCEL BYPASS SURGERIES AFTER EDTA TREATMENTS It is common place for physicians to help heart disease patients who have failed all the standard treatments to make remarkable - even unbelievable - recoveries, once given EDTA. Many patients on waiting lists for bypass surgery have found, after a series of EDTA chelation treatments, that they did not need the surgery. One particular study found that when 65 patients who had been on the waiting list for bypass surgery for an average of six months were treated with EDTA, the symptoms in 89% of them improved so much that they canceled their surgery.3
http://www.healingdaily.com/oral-chelation/oral-edta-chelation.htm
EDTA removes toxic metals from the blood. Studies have shown that as people age they continuously accumulate toxic metals: lead, mercury, aluminum, iron, cadmium, and arsenic, among others. The accrual of these toxins invites an increased risk for various diseases, especially heart disease. The less of these metals we have in our bodies, the more likely we are to be physiologically healthy or simply feel good, and the lower our risk for heart disease. Because EDTA is so effective at removing unwanted metals and other minerals from the blood, it has been the standard, FDA-approved treatment for lead, mercury, aluminum, and cadmium poisoning for more than 50 years. EDTA normalizes the distribution of most metallic elements in the body.
> Jeff Pizza Girl. - 24 Aug 2005 23:38 GMT Forget it Lolli. He is just a troll and does this to everybody. He will switch his attitude later to defend it against somebody else.
> ---snip--- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >>>>> > >>>>> http:// QUACK http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis t_uids=10874275&dopt=Abstract
> >>>>> Jeff > >>>> The majority of Quackwatch is quacked itself. They aim to discredit [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> I have provided the pathetic LIES told by *organized medicine* and the > >> FACT they are EVIL and care NOT about suffering people. http://www.integrative-med.com-/TOPICS/subtopics/Chelation_Th----erapy.html
> The Sacred Cow of Bypass Surgeryby James Biddle MD > [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > Here is the photo of the man behind the web > sitehttp://www.quackwatch.com/inde-x.html. He often attacks various health
> products and practices by making false claims about them, as if those claims > came FROM them, and then knocks down these straw men of his own device. [quoted text clipped - 393 lines] > > > Jeff Triniti - 24 Aug 2005 01:24 GMT > >> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > (...) Honestly Jeff, that would take too much time and effort to try and prove. It's really simple as this. Try it. Either it works or it doesn't. Be wise about what you don't try. I always look at things a little leery when I've heard from one supposedly *credible* source not to try it with no solid basis for their position.
The cost of some of these products are nothing more than a cheap night out on the town. I would rather invest that money in experimenting with my OWN health than going out to dinner or to a NFL game. If I lose, I lose but at least I've learned from personal experience. ALL claims out there are not lies. Because of my willingness to try some things, I have found success where I could get no help from modern medicine. I've learned it the hard way that doctors and science do not have all the answers. Some things just work and can be found in your own back yard. As they say, 'the proof is in the pudding'. Personally, I would rather take the advice of people who have *tried* a product than someone who hasn't. It's amazing how they discredit products that themselves or someone credible that they know personally hasn't even tried. What's their REAL motivation I wonder? Their stiff and unrealistic position doesn't make sense at all to me. -- Regards,
Triniti ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- "Some things are true whether you believe them or not." - Nicolas Cage in City of Angels
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Aug 2005 02:17 GMT > The cost of some of these products are nothing more than a cheap night > out on the town. I would rather invest that money in experimenting with [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Triniti COMMENT:
Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't apply to EDTA and coronary disease. How in th devil are you going to know it worked? Have two serial angiograms? Serial spiral CTs?
SBH
Eric Bohlman - 24 Aug 2005 02:38 GMT > Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't > apply to EDTA and coronary disease. How in th devil are you going to > know it worked? Have two serial angiograms? Serial spiral CTs? The testimonials always say that the patients *felt* better after the chelation. To that, I would reply that five of the most boring days of my life were spent in the CCU waiting to be sufficiently anticoagulated to undergo catheterization, which revealed that my circumflex artery was 90% blocked. I *felt* perfectly fine, except for a slightly annoying sensation in my chest that only occurred on the first day (and was the reason I was there, after convincing myself that it needed to be looked into, in the first place). In the preceding days/months/years I was completely asymptomatic despite the fact that the blockage obviously wasn't anything terribly new.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Aug 2005 03:33 GMT > > Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't > > apply to EDTA and coronary disease. How in th devil are you going to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > asymptomatic despite the fact that the blockage obviously wasn't anything > terribly new. COMMENT:
Of course. Coronary disease, unless you're having an actual MI, is a chronic disease like emphysema or any other. You have good days and bad ones, and there's no rhyme or reason. Placebo effect is huge, and just random deviations in heart pain are huge, for no particular reason. And as for treatment, people feel better no matter what nasty thing you do to them. In fact, in non blinded studies, the worse the treatment is, the better people seem to feel later.
All of this drove the early heart surgeons and stenters nuts, and there are famous trials of several heart procedures which involved actual sham surgeries, where they cut the patients open and then sewed them up again, sometimes doing the surgical procedure in between or not, according to randomization. There was one treatment called "Poudrage" from the French for "powdering," in which irritant talc was sprinkled on the heart to try to stimulate new vessel growth. http://www.puc-mrm.com/bypass.html. It finally had to be killed by a double blind experiment. As did internal mammary ligation, which was supposed to benefit cardiac circulation. That was a killed finally by a double-blind surgery trial in 1959:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=13657350
And so on. Why don't I trust the testamonials for EDTA? Because I know too much history.
SBH
George Lagergren - 24 Aug 2005 04:43 GMT [in ref to EDTA & chelation]
> Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't > apply to EDTA and coronary disease. How in th devil are you going to > know it worked? Have two serial angiograms? Serial spiral CTs? Folks who try an oral EDTA chelation and end up feeling better will know that such a product works.
David Wright - 24 Aug 2005 05:17 GMT > [in ref to EDTA & chelation] >> Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Folks who try an oral EDTA chelation and end up feeling better >will know that such a product works. Feeling better does NOT prove the product works. Chelation worked no better than placebo in clinical trials -- which means that a lot of the placebo people felt better, even though they weren't.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your killfile." -- Anon.
Rich.@. - 24 Aug 2005 05:36 GMT >> [in ref to EDTA & chelation] >>> Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Feeling better does NOT prove the product works. Well it certainly proves it to those who feel better and lack critical thinking skills. Proof is in the mind of the beholder. And when the mind is crazed all bets are off.
>Chelation worked no >better than placebo in clinical trials -- which means that a lot of >the placebo people felt better, even though they weren't. Ignorance is bliss. Believing that they felt better is proof enough to them. And if the next day they drop dead due to failure of the chelation to work, at least they were happy til the end.
Aloha,
Rich ------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------
Best defense to logic is ignorance
Jeff - 25 Aug 2005 00:13 GMT > [in ref to EDTA & chelation] >> Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Folks who try an oral EDTA chelation and end up feeling better > will know that such a product works. No they won't. If a lot of folks try EDTA in a controlled trial, and the folks you try EDTA have significantly fewer heart attacks than those who don't, then we will know it works.
One reason why people who take _______ (insert the name of any product here)______ feel better is because they think they will. It is called the placebo effect.
Jeff
Pizza Girl. - 25 Aug 2005 04:34 GMT Let's see you prove you are human.
<PLONK>
> > [in ref to EDTA & chelation] > >> Though I agree with your general point of view, presumably it doesn't [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Jeff Pizza Girl. - 24 Aug 2005 23:37 GMT I should gather up all your posts and show these porr people that your "show me the money" statement is made in over 40% of your rants.
Show me ypu don't..
> Please provide peer-reviewed evidence that these things work. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > (...) George Lagergren - 24 Aug 2005 04:28 GMT > bias and deception. For example, as a result of a homeopathic remedy > passed on to me from my mom (RN with homeopathic certs), I haven't had a > cold since 1995 and I haven't had the flu since 1999. They were > completely cured and then prevented not just relieving the symptoms like > with OTC medications. My ex-wife and kids have all been sick several Since I gave up consuming dairy products and drinking cow's milk ten years ago, I have not had any common colds.
Pizza Girl. - 24 Aug 2005 23:41 GMT Placebo. You were told....LOL
> > bias and deception. For example, as a result of a homeopathic remedy > > passed on to me from my mom (RN with homeopathic certs), I haven't had a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Since I gave up consuming dairy products and drinking cow's milk > ten years ago, I have not had any common colds. George Lagergren - 25 Aug 2005 04:25 GMT > "Triniti" <info@example.com> wrote: > bias and deception. For example, as a result of a homeopathic remedy > passed on to me from my mom (RN with homeopathic certs), I haven't had a > cold since 1995 and I haven't had the flu since 1999. They were > completely cured and then prevented not just relieving the symptoms like > with OTC medications. My ex-wife and kids have all been sick several
> "George Lagergren" <gel44@earthlink.net> replied: > Since I gave up consuming dairy products and drinking cow's milk > ten years ago, I have not had any common colds.
> Placebo. You were told....LOL So it is always the "placebo effect" when one switches from sickness mode to wellness mode by eliminating sugar; by eliminating dairy (including cow's milk) products; and by eliminating soda pop from their diet, right?
LadyLollipop - 23 Aug 2005 07:51 GMT >> Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? > > I don't have any "ridiculous rantings." However, I am able to support my > position that chelation therapy is dangerous and useless: LOL!
> http://QUACK > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis t_uids=10874275&dopt=Abstract > > Jeff Pizza Girl. - 23 Aug 2005 22:15 GMT When you use those goofed up quack balls to quote you lose all credibility from both sides of the fence.
Lousy troll even.
> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? > > I don't have any "ridiculous rantings." However, I am able to support my > position that chelation therapy is dangerous and useless: > > http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis t_uids=10874275&dopt=Abstract
> Jeff Jeff - 23 Aug 2005 23:17 GMT > When you use those goofed up quack balls to quote you lose all credibility > from both sides of the fence. > > Lousy troll even. Thanks for the personal attacks.
Please provide evdience that the Quackwatch page I referenced is incorrect. Or that article I from PubMed I also referenced.
Also, please help us follow the thread more easily by posting inline, not at the top. It shows respect for your fellow readers.
Thanks.
Jeff
>> > Do you have any cites or sites to support your ridiculous rantings? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Jeff LadyLollipop - 23 Aug 2005 23:57 GMT >> When you use those goofed up quack balls to quote you lose all >> credibility [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Please provide evdience that the Quackwatch page I referenced is > incorrect. Or that article I from PubMed I also referenced. Already done.
http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/articles/p182.htm#quack
Here is the photo of the man behind the web sitehttp://www.quackwatch.com/index.html. He often attacks various health products and practices by making false claims about them, as if those claims came FROM them, and then knocks down these straw men of his own device.
****One of the most ***evil*** people on the web is a former psychiatrist who lashes out against just about every possible alternative health product or practice. It is, in fact, a hall of fame. If you are mentioned in his pages you can assume you are doing a good job! He attacks chelation therapy, of course, but he selects a "straw man" to attack. In other words, the early explanation of how chelation therapy works is well proven to be false, event hough many people are still repeating those lies. But, the more thoughtful intravenous doctors have discarded this early theory and gone on to the second theory, mentioned on another page (Click Here).After EDTA was found effective in chelating and removing toxic metals from the blood, some scientists postulated that hardened arteries could be softened ifthe calcium in their walls was removed. The first indication that EDTA treatment might benefit patients with atherosclerosis came from Clarke, Clarke,and Mosher, who, in 1956, reported that patients with occlusive peripheralvascular disease said they felt better after treatment with EDTA [AmericanJournal of Medical Science 230:654-666, 1956]. (Source)
http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:
By Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.
There exist a number of self-styled medical thought-police types who call themselves "quack busters." They are fond of attacking alternative and emerging medical therapies in favor of the existing medical monopoly. They even have their own Quackwatch Internet website. It is uncertain where the money comes from to fund those efforts, but it might be enlightening to trace that money back to its original source. One investigator alleges that funding comes from pharmaceutical manufacturers.
For years these so-called quackbusters have attacked nutritional supplementation with high potency multi-vitamins as "quackery." As summarized elsewhere on this website (Nutrition In The News), recent scientific studies now prove that virtually anyone can benefit from nutritional supplementation. With egg on their faces from this recent vitamin research, those same critics continue to attack chelation therapy. I will now answer, point by point, an article on the Quackwatch website by Dr. Saul Green entitled "CHELATION THERAPY: UNPROVEN CLAIMS AND UNSOUND THEORIES," in which Dr. Green attempts to discredit EDTA chelation using half-truths, speculation, and false statements.
ALSO Click Here to read:
A MEDICAL SCHOOL PROFESSOR BUSTS THE QUACKBUSTERS
Opponents and critics of EDTA chelation, such as Saul Green, rarely state that chelation "does not work" or that chelation is "proven not to work." Instead they merely state that it is "unproven." They are evasive and set a double standard. Bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and close to 80% of all other therapies routinely used by medical doctors in everyday practice are also "unproven," using those same unreasonable standards. Most widely-accepted and traditional medical therapies have never been subjected to double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials costing many millions of dollars?as demanded by opponents of chelation therapy.
Detractors of chelation therapy insist that large, multimillion-dollar studies be performed, giving half the patients a placebo, with the placebo group "blinded"?unknown to the investigators until the study is complete (called "double-blind" because neither the doctors nor the patients know who gets the placebo and who gets the active medication). Drug companies are required by the FDA to test new prescription drugs in this manner before they can make marketing claims. On the other hand, bypass surgery, balloon angioplasty and most other widely accepted medical procedures have never been subjected to that type of testing. Because patent protection has long since expired on EDTA, there is no source of funding for such a study. N.I.H., the government source for research money, has repeatedly refused to fund a research grant to study EDTA chelation.
Saul Green makes an issue of an FTC ruling in 1998 relating to advertising for EDTA chelation therapy. Because the FDA has not yet approved EDTA chelation therapy for treatment of atherosclerosis, the FTC ruled that it is not proper to imply otherwise in advertisements to the lay public. The informed consent provided to patients by chelation doctors has always made that fact clear, but once again politically powerful critics of chelation therapy have generated adverse publicity, using what was essentially a non-issue. That FTC ruling was based partly on their opinion that professional physicians associations, such as the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM), should not advertise directly to the lay public. The FTC ruling does not apply to the doctor patient relationship. Training courses on chelation therapy continue to be given to practicing physicians twice yearly by ACAM.
Drug companies quickly patent their newly developed remedies, which allows them to charge high prices (usually a dollar or more per capsule, sometimes much more) to recapture their millions of dollars in expenses for the FDA-required double blind studies. EDTA is a generic drug. Patent protection expired many years ago. Double-blind placebo studies of adequate size have therefore never been funded and probably will not be funded in the future unless N.I.H. or a private foundation can be convinced to do so with either public or philanthropic funds. (In 2002 a $30 million research proposal for a multi-center study of EDTA chelation therapy is under consideration by N.I.H. Let's all hope that it gets funded.)
Many highly positive smaller studies have been published proving EDTA chelation therapy, reporting objective measurements of before and after improvements. Statistical analyses of those improvements are highly significant. Summaries of those studies can be read on the following webpage: Chelation Research. A chapter from my recent book, Bypassing Bypass Surgery, summarizes the vast amount of research supporting EDTA chelation therapy.
Those studies that support EDTA chelation are good science and are scientifically valid. Only if it is assumed that placebo effect could cause long-term, sustained increases in objective blood flow measurements to the brain, heart and extremities through diseased arteries can those studies be ignored. Placebo effect has never been observed to last more than 6 months. Benefit from chelation therapy comes on slowly; increasing for 3 to 5 months after treatment is complete and persisting for years after a course of therapy. Placebo benefit has never acted that way.
Saul Green's quackbuster attack on chelation therapy states that those published studies are poorly designed and therefore meaningless. I challenge any educated lay reader to review those studies and not be impressed. It always desirable to have bigger and better studies. There is always room for improvement. That same statement could be made about any study ever published. All of the existing clinical data is positive and highly significant on statistical analysis. Independent researchers, at different research facilities, using different technology, were able to duplicate the positive findings of increased blood flow through blocked arteries. Statistical analysis continues to show consistent high significance.
The bypass surgery and balloon angioplasty industries gross upwards of $6 billion per year. The cardiovascular drug industry takes in upwards of $100 billion dollars per year. If the existing studies of chelation therapy were to be accepted as valid, those industries would suffer enormous losses. They have no reason to want to see chelation therapy accepted.
In recent years opponents of chelation have published several a number of small sham studies, falsely alleging that EDTA chelation does not work. In every instance those studies were actually supportive of EDTA chelation therapy, but they contained an erroneous conclusion otherwise. Click here for an analysis of deceptive studies. The recent PATCH study in Calgary, Canada, is a truly blatant example of that practice. That kind of junk science proves nothing, and the studies cited actually contain evidence to support EDTA chelation therapy. Nonetheless, they are quickly published in mainstream medical journals, interspersed with full-page, four-color advertisements for new and expensive pharmaceutical drugs. The news media then prominently print articles stating that EDTA chelation therapy has been proven not to work.
A wise consumer will review all existing sources of information and then make up his or her own mind about what is best. A Ford salesman will most likely tell you that a Ford is superior to a Chevrolet and vice versa. Consumers should be allowed to decide what feels right for them, without being subjected to a "time-bomb-in-chest" hard-sell, with a high-pressure, frightening sales pitch at a time when they are highly vulnerable. Treadmills and angiograms are very effective and can be frightening marketing tools leading to expensive, dangerous and often unnecessary therapies.
Mark Twain once said that, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." A similar statement could be made about cardiologists, whose only tool is a catheter with balloon attached, or surgeons with their scalpels. The same might also be said of a chelation therapist. Buyer beware! Be an informed consumer. Every therapist has their own bias.
Saul Green writes that the Kitchell, Meltzer reappraisal study in 1963 showed no significant benefit. I have described their exact data on the following webpage: Chelation Critics Deceive the Public. You decide for yourself if you think it shows significant benefit or not. For political, economic and other unknown reasons, researchers occasionally interpret their data in a way that fits their personal prejudices, either positive or negative. When an unbiased, objective appraisal is made of that same data, the opposite conclusion can sometimes be supported. That has happened repeatedly with chelation therapy. The facts are presented (Chelation Critics Deceive the Public) to enable readers to form their own opinions.
Saul Green states that chelation is "not recognized by the scientific community." That is not true unless it is assumed that the many highly trained physicians who administer chelation therapy are not scientific. He engages in name-calling. Doctors who disagree with Saul Green are called unscientific. Various segments of the medical community join together in professional associations with the goal of protecting their turf and maintaining a monopoly in their field as much as possible. It is not justified for one such group to state that other medical scientists who disagree are "unscientific." This merely represents a disagreement between experts, between differing factions of the medical profession-a common occurrence in any profession. Emerging, complimentary and alternative therapies often confront that type of bias.
Saul Green writes that at least fifteen different reports document that EDTA did not benefit patients. That is not true! For the most part, he cites letters to the editor, which report an occasional treatment failure. No therapy is 100% effective and treatment failures do occur with EDTA. However, more than 85% of patients have been helped. These anecdotal reports of treatment failures are used by critics, but anecdotal reports of treatment success are rejected by critics. This represents more evidence of the double standard. Saul Green also misrepresents the the unscientific studies previously mentioned as documenting that EDTA chelation does not work, Chelation Critics Deceive the Public.
Arteriograms before and after treatment are demanded by critics to prove benefit from chelation therapy. It is not possible, however, to accurately measure decreases in atherosclerotic plaque unless the diameter of the artery is increased by approximately 25%. In the presence of turbulent blood flow past plaques, it requires only a 10% increase in arterial diameter to double the flow of blood (Poiseuille's Law of hemodynamics as can be found in any textbook of medical physiology or biophysics). As proven in studies, arteriograms and ultrasound are not sensitive enough to consistently measure changes of less than 25% in the diameter of a blood vessel. Increases much less than that can greatly relieve or totally eliminate symptoms, and are not detectable on arteriograms. Studies which measure heart and organ function and total blood flow consistently prove that EDTA chelation therapy is highly beneficial.
If patients improve their physical endurance, if exercise tolerance increases and if symptoms improve, that provides good scientific evidence of benefit. If measurements of walking distance on a treadmill with an uphill incline consi
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