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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2005

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Sugar & Salt

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IanW - 20 Jul 2005 22:30 GMT
Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus
MMu - 21 Jul 2005 09:46 GMT
> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>
> Bigus

sugar and salt are self conservating because of osmosis.
Enrico C - 21 Jul 2005 18:29 GMT
>> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>>
>> Bigus
>
> sugar and salt are self conservating because of osmosis.

Would you expand on that?

Signature

Enrico C

Dr. Dickie - 21 Jul 2005 18:34 GMT
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:46:55 +0200, MMu wrote in
> <news:42df610b$0$11094$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at> on sci.med.nutrition
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Would you expand on that?

Pure sugar is desiccating to microbes due to osmotic forces pulling the
water out (the water move to areas of low water). For salt, same thing, plus
it has no real nutritional value (as sodium and chlorides are so
ubiquitous).

Signature

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

IanW - 21 Jul 2005 19:51 GMT
[..]
> Pure sugar is desiccating to microbes due to osmotic forces pulling the
> water out (the water move to areas of low water). For salt, same thing,
> plus
> it has no real nutritional value (as sodium and chlorides are so
> ubiquitous).

ok thanks, that's interesting.
rudy-canoza@excite.com - 21 Jul 2005 19:09 GMT
> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>
> Bigus

No protein present in either one.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Jul 2005 06:20 GMT
> > Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
> >
> > Bigus
>
> No protein present in either one.

COMMENT:

But honey doesn't decay or ferment either, and it certainly has enough
protein to provide some nutrition for microbes (not to mention bee
larvae).

The main reason for the self preservation of sugar is the osmotic one
explained. If you dilute honey with water so the osmotic forces are low
enough, it WILL ferment. Then you get mead.  Indeed, if you make even
dilute sugar water with that horrible supposedly nutrition-free "white
refined table sugar," it will grow all kinds of interesting microbes as
well. It is not, of course, quite pure. And the difference is
everything.

SBH
Enrico C - 22 Jul 2005 22:27 GMT
On 21 Jul 2005 11:09:06 -0700, rudy-canoza@excite.com wrote in
<news:1121969346.617615.166560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition :

>> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>>
>> Bigus
>
> No protein present in either one.

Nor in oils, but they do go off ;)

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Enrico C

Max C. - 21 Jul 2005 23:54 GMT
> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>
> Bigus

2 main reasons:

1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals.  As such, they're inorganic.  
Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
living things don't consider them food.  Likewise, we shouldn't consider
them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
tract to help us break down our food.

A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
not in a good way.)
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Jul 2005 06:27 GMT
> > Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals.  As such, they're inorganic.
> Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

COMMENT:
Sugar is as organic as substances get. Look up the word, for godsake.

> 2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
> living things don't consider them food.

COMMENT:
Not true. Hummingbirds happy drink sugar-water. And if you leave it in
the feeder too long and make it too dilute, it grows an astonishingly
fun array of microbes.

> Likewise, we shouldn't consider
> them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
> tract to help us break down our food.

COMMENT:
Unless you are a termite, this is nonsense. Rarely do I see posts with
so much misinformation.

> A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
> life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
> not in a good way.)

COMMENT:
Yeah right. Unless they are done with the proper dose of political
correctness, by Native Americans.

SBH
Dr. Dickie - 22 Jul 2005 12:59 GMT
> > Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
> not in a good way.)

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head so
we could see.

Signature

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

Max C. - 23 Jul 2005 17:50 GMT
> Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
> SINGLE THING CORRECT.
> Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head so
> we could see.

Well, Dick, your mom must also be proud to have raised someone brave
enough to flame people using complete anonymity.  You're quite a tough
guy.

Rather than posting a completely useless patch of dribble, why not do
some research and post your findings.  Proving me wrong might actually
be valuable to the rest of the group.

One thing my mom did teach me... if you can't say something nice, keep
your pie hole shut.

Max.
montygram - 23 Jul 2005 19:55 GMT
SBH doesn't know what he's talking about at all, for example: "The
membranes themselves can't dissolve in water or the cell woudl fall
apart."

Gilbert Ling demonstrated that such statements are outright wrong.
Read some of his books, and stop quoting textbooks, which are usually
called "storybooks," "fairy tales," and the like by scientists working
in specific fields.  For those who do not have a strong scientific
background, Ling's "Life at the cell and below-cell level" is a place
to start, along with a textbook to compare it to.

Any fatty acid layer would have no structural integrity.  Cells are
held together by bound water, such as one gets in the egg white when
one boils an egg, or in jello.  There are fatty acids at the surface,
but they serve no structural role.  The evidence over the last few
years, as well as Ling's work, makes this clear, but what SBH is saying
violated physical laws.  Even the textbooks say that "weak forces" hold
the "membrane" together, yet the membrane withstands tremendous
sheering forces.  You don't have to be an "expert" in anything to know
that this is ludicrous.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 26 Jul 2005 22:33 GMT
> SBH doesn't know what he's talking about at all, for example: "The
> membranes themselves can't dissolve in water or the cell woudl fall
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> background, Ling's "Life at the cell and below-cell level" is a place
> to start, along with a textbook to compare it to.

Oh, how the *&%% would YOU know?

> Any fatty acid layer would have no structural integrity.

Ah, well, then soap bubbles don't exist, then.

> Cells are
> held together by bound water, such as one gets in the egg white when
> one boils an egg, or in jello.  There are fatty acids at the surface,
> but they serve no structural role.

I didn't say the membrane was all that held the cell together, now did
I?  I said that if the membrane was soluble in water, the cell would
fall apart. Quite a different thing. Parse it out. An insoluble
membrane is necessary, but not sufficient.

There are membrane-only particles that can be made apart from cells, of
course, usually called liposomes. They really are held together by
nothing more than the bilayer membrane. Most cells also have a lot of
extra help, but it's all anchored into the membrane, which surely can't
disolve.

>  The evidence over the last few
> years, as well as Ling's work, makes this clear, but what SBH is saying
> violated physical laws.

Violates physical laws?  You must be daft.

> Even the textbooks say that "weak forces" hold
> the "membrane" together, yet the membrane withstands tremendous
> sheering forces.  You don't have to be an "expert" in anything to know
> that this is ludicrous.

As explained, you've set up a straw man, and are whanging away at it.
Read what I wrote, then try again.

SBH
Dr. Dickie - 25 Jul 2005 12:44 GMT
> > Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
> > SINGLE THING CORRECT.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Max.

Dude, I was being nice. You made yourself look bad by posted that drivel, I
was trying to divert attention away from your complete ignorance.
Prove you wrong? What do I have to do to prove you wrong? Take a high school
chemistry course, you idiot.
Hint: sugar is not mineral
Hint 2: mineral and inorganic (you obviously do not know the definition of
the either word) is redundant (that means you are repeating yourself--I'll
save you having to look that one up).
Hint 3: Spread some refined, deadly white sugar on your countertop. Add a
bit of water. Wait and see ALL the living things that live off of the sugar.

As I said. An entire post not ONE damn thing correct.
Most people try to overcome ignorance, you embrace it.
Stay in high school, there is a ditch somewhere with your name on it.

Signature

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

Max C. - 26 Jul 2005 03:46 GMT
Your posts make me laugh.  I can't help but picture you as a scrawny
little nerd with no social life whatsoever... running around the
internet trying to pick a fight with people you know you'll never meet
in an effort to make you feel good about yourself.  I laugh because I
know you'd never have the guts to call anyone an idiot to their face.  
They'd squash you like a bug.

I'll concede that some animals can be enticed to eat white sugar, given
the right criteria, however, they will NOT "live off the sugar."  Hop on
over to Medline or JAMA or AJCN and look up the studies done on various
lab animals fed a white sugar diet.  They don't live... which is at the
heart of my point.  White sugar is a man-made substance.  It does not
occur in nature and can not *sustain* life... which is not true of its
unrefined counterpart.  Exactly the opposite is true... and there are
plenty of studies to support that statement (see above referneced
journals.)  Rodents can be kept alive for years on a diet of unrefined
cane or beet sugar because it's not empty calories.

Your water example also doesn't work for salt.  What lives on salt
water?

Since you seem to think you're the expert here, I took your advice and
looked up "inorganic" and "mineral"  Seems you're not as smart as you
think you are.

in·or·gan·ic - 1. Involving neither organic life nor the products of
organic life. 2. Not composed of organic matter.

min·er·al - A naturally occurring, homogeneous inorganic solid substance
having a definite chemical composition and characteristic crystalline
structure, color, and hardness.

Well would you look at that?  Dictionary.com used the word "inorganic"
right there in the definition of the word mineral... but if those words
meant exactly the same thing, HOW COULD THEY DO THAT?  You can't use a
word to define that same word.  You can't say "min·er·al - A naturally
occurring, homogeneous mineral..."

So, if inorganic and mineral meant exactly the same thing and were
redundant, then I could use them interchangebly like this:

The tires on my truck are inorganic.
The tires on my truck are mineral.

The soil on the moon is inorganic.
The soil on the moon is mineral.

Hhhhmmp... those sentences don't seem to mean the same thing.  Obviously
there are several elements that are inorganic but are not classified as
mineral.  Please refer to your middle school periodic table... or for
your convenience you can find one here:

http://wine1.sb.fsu.edu/chm1045/tables/period/period.htm

Socrates said "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."  
Your attitude and personality lead me (and others here, I'm sure) to
assume that you have a long way to go before you have gained true
knowledge.

You can keep trying, though.  Maybe some day your jack-a.s attitude will
get you laid andf asf dfgdf  BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Whooo boy... I
couldn't even finish that sentence without losing it.

> Dude, I was being nice. You made yourself look bad by posted that drivel, I
> was trying to divert attention away from your complete ignorance.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Most people try to overcome ignorance, you embrace it.
> Stay in high school, there is a ditch somewhere with your name on it.
Dr. Dickie - 26 Jul 2005 13:38 GMT
Your posts make me laugh.  I can't help but picture you as a scrawny
little nerd with no social life whatsoever... running around the
internet trying to pick a fight with people you know you'll never meet
in an effort to make you feel good about yourself.  I laugh because I
know you'd never have the guts to call anyone an idiot to their face.
They'd squash you like a bug.

I'll concede that some animals can be enticed to eat white sugar, given
the right criteria, however, they will NOT "live off the sugar."  Hop on
over to Medline or JAMA or AJCN and look up the studies done on various
lab animals fed a white sugar diet.  They don't live... which is at the
heart of my point.  White sugar is a man-made substance.  It does not
occur in nature and can not *sustain* life... which is not true of its
unrefined counterpart.  Exactly the opposite is true... and there are
plenty of studies to support that statement (see above referneced
journals.)  Rodents can be kept alive for years on a diet of unrefined
cane or beet sugar because it's not empty calories.

Your water example also doesn't work for salt.  What lives on salt
water?

Since you seem to think you're the expert here, I took your advice and
looked up "inorganic" and "mineral"  Seems you're not as smart as you
think you are.

in·or·gan·ic - 1. Involving neither organic life nor the products of
organic life. 2. Not composed of organic matter.

min·er·al - A naturally occurring, homogeneous inorganic solid substance
having a definite chemical composition and characteristic crystalline
structure, color, and hardness.

Well would you look at that?  Dictionary.com used the word "inorganic"
right there in the definition of the word mineral... but if those words
meant exactly the same thing, HOW COULD THEY DO THAT?  You can't use a
word to define that same word.  You can't say "min·er·al - A naturally
occurring, homogeneous mineral..."

Congratulations, you are on your way to learning something.
Don't forget how those things called books work. In time, if you apply
yourself, you will learn critical thinking, and see the folly of what you
have written here.
Hint: redundant does not mean EXACT
But hey, I give you a B for effort (your first time right?).

Signature

Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick

Jim Chinnis - 22 Jul 2005 18:28 GMT
Max C. <me@noemail.com> wrote in part:

>> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
>not in a good way.)

I can't believe this was posted in a "science" Usenet group. How
could anyone not at least accidentally get some of the science
right?
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
montygram - 23 Jul 2005 03:19 GMT
But what about the OP's question.  Saying "osmosis" is not going to
help most people who read posts here.  If you can't explain why
bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
post here?  Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 23 Jul 2005 04:17 GMT
> But what about the OP's question.  Saying "osmosis" is not going to
> help most people who read posts here.  If you can't explain why
> bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
> post here?  Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

COMMENT:

If the OP already understands "osmosis" then you can say a lot of time
by simply referring him to the word.  This happens. The first time I
saw granulated sugar troweled into a non-union osteomyelotic
thoracotomy wound infected with MRSA, I couldn't believe it. "How the
the hell is THAT going to work?" said I. "Osmotic shock as antibiotic."
Ah, so.

Here's the short version. All growing cells live in little pools of
water. All cells have pretty dilute watery contents, because you need a
lot of water to let stuff move around, and also the non-water contents
are pretty big molecules that don't count much as solvents because they
take up a lot of space. The number of impacts against a wall they make,
which compete with water molecules trying to get in or out, is
negligable.

All cells are surrounded by soap-like membranes which have to pass
water inward, so the cell can drink. The membranes themselves can't
dissolve in water or the cell woudl fall apart. Therefore it must be
made of something waxy that water can't just move into and disolve
into. Therefore it has have physical little holes in it so the water
can pass. These can be little passive holes that pass water both ways
without much interference, or the "hole" can be a crevice in a protein
acting like a pump (think of a water wheel). In the case lf the passive
hole, it works fine if the concentration of water outside the cell is
lower than inside, which causes water to just diffuse in, along the
gradient. This happens because water molecules impact the hole more
outside than inside, so more of them go that way (out to in).

If there's a protein pump like the water wheel, which must shuttle
water inward against a concentration gradient (low concentration
outside to high inside) it has to do work. But there's a limit to how
much work these things can do uphill. No pump is perfect, and if the
gradient is too great it, acts like a pressure, adn the leaks in the
"wrong direction," like leaks in an old submarine or boat, can quickly
swamp the bilge pumps or whatever.

Really high sugar and salt concentrations outside cells present VERY
low water concentations in solutions. And HUGE gradients in water
concentration. It's practically impossible for the cell to get usable
water out of them, because water leaks out passively faster than it can
be pumped in. Think of seawater, but much worse. Cells eithe have to
close down completely and go into suspended animation, or else prune up
and die.

SBH
MMu - 25 Jul 2005 10:24 GMT
> But what about the OP's question.  Saying "osmosis" is not going to
> help most people who read posts here.  If you can't explain why
> bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
> post here?  Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

Since this is a science forum and since "osmosis" is a topic of any biology
course in basic school I really did not see any need explaining any further
than that without being asked to do so.
Dr. Dickie - 25 Jul 2005 12:47 GMT
> But what about the OP's question.  Saying "osmosis" is not going to
> help most people who read posts here.  If you can't explain why
> bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
> post here?  Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

Right, we wouldn't want anyone to learn anything.
Why not let the OP look up the word. Do a little research, learn, grow,
develop.
Hell, they might even get them interested in science.

Signature

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

nospam@aol.com - 26 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT
>> Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals.  As such, they're inorganic.  
>Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

Sugar is composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.  It is 99.98% carbohydrate
and is probably the most organic stuff that we eat.  

Ora
 
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