Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

The viability threshold

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Phil Scott - 19 Jul 2005 04:02 GMT
.

When one more straw on the camels back breaks it.
You could call that the 'viability threshold'

Here are some minor but obvious examples.  There is no need to
hair split these for obvious exceptions.  the examples are
used to illustrate a more general principle:

Say a given person needs 2500 calories a day to be healthy...
and some of it has to be fruits and vegitables.

Then his income is cut 10%.. he now can afford 2,000 calories
a day, but its mostly greasey fast food and no fruits and
vegitables... he will have crossed the 'viability threshold'..
that tiny change in income can take him from progressing and
viable...to slowly going south...

he will get fat, loose his stamina and health, get sick...
loose income..   that drives the ability to eat well even
lower... he gets physically worse.    It goes south.

His entire family suffers. His kids now underfed do poorly in
school.  A million exceptions for sure...but this an example
of the commonly seen mechanisms.

the negative ramifications become limitless if you give it
some thought.

Why?  When did it start...it started with a 5 or 10% cut in
income.. that put him on the down side of what I am calling
the 'viability' threshold.

When did the 5 to 10% cut in income begin?   The govt spent
too much so printed more money, purchasing power dropped by
10%  (actually since 1999, by 15% a year. on such as homes,
fuel and medical costs)

   ****

A thinking person can see this in all areas...

say a service contractor with work in the city...can do 3
small jobs a day, billing 6 hours.. but spending 10 hours
counting free quotes and travel etc. so he is maxed out at 10
hours, stamina fades and all that.      So he lives ok on the
6 hours.

He is above the economic viabilty threshold... he buys tools
that keep him doing well.

then the city increases parking tickets from 15 dollars (1998)
to 85 dollars, 2005... and makes sure that he can't even slow
down in the city without getting 200 dollars in parking
tickets ... or his truck towed unless he parks in city
parking...  8 blocks away from any give job.... and lugs 200
lbs of tools to each job.

Fine..thats life in the city.

He can do two jobs a day now... he drops below the viability
threshold.

now leaving all the snitty little details asside...  it is
that type of thing, a small percentage loss, that drives a
larger bulk of activity from viable...to non viable.   This is
true in countless areas...

An entire viable elephant can be taken down with just one
ounce of lead you might say.

To use an analogy....In a culture, that lead might come in the
form 500 smaller BB's... its all fatal none the less.   Even
if the body doesnt drop when when the first BB strikes or the
city taxes rise a dollar above net income levels.   that
dollar..can put a much larger cash flow across the negative
margin.

for instance a man hits his kid in the mouth just one time...
knocks out a few teeth is all...not much blood. the kids
attitude may change a little.. it puts him just a millimeter
south of the viabilty threshold.. not enough to notice...but
south...early in his life time... that shapes the next 80
years.

The slippery slope.    We know how that turns out...we see
countless examples.

Another example:
A man needs so many calories of good food a day to stay
healthy.. cost per day say its 10 dollars...     1 dollar is
cut from that budget... two apples and a small salad are
eliminated... one greasy hamburger is added so he feels
full... that puts him on the down side of the threshold...

A juror may wish to decide if that affects his wife, kids and
neighborhood or not........ and the taxes paid to run
government.

Two apples.  One dollar for a good man, not the type that
would have spent it on crack and a shiv.  But a good and
decent man trying to raise a family...

Once on the down side of the ability to sustain a working
posture....  and production....  ability begins to decline...

that cuts income further.  Now the second hamburger is
dropped... and less protien ... and now a lot noodles and
grease.

His musculature fails ... he becomes unable to produce
efficiently.

Diabetes follows... and we had no clue why.    Of course there
are reasons why.     He lost a dollar of his income, just one
buck....or was ignorant and failed to eat well, he was
ignorant for many reasons, some work too hard to have the
energy to do research or understand actual issues.... it went
south from there.

Accordingly any tiny change, a faint loss of income, or a
trace level of added ignorance, abuse etc..and you see very
very little change immediately... the person is still right at
the threshold...it all looks fine.   But its absolutely not
fine.

A closer look, and it is observed that he is now just a
millimeter south of sustainable viability.... it goes south
fast from there.  Its caled the 'slippery slope'

It is for these reasons that any incriment of abuse from
government or elsewhere. a spouse, an employer or ones own
ignorance.... can take any situation from viable to non viable
to disaster.    That one tiny incriment if it occurs in the
threshold area, can push a person to the negative band.

  A close look will reveal that most people are in the
threshold and below threshold areas....  in many aspects of
their lives.

For instance say the guy is rich.. not anywhere near the
economic viability threshold, but he is hateful...is is
vicious..and sees no good in others.

Such a man is on the threshold of killing himself with his own
bile... he gets a tax audit.. that puts his health totally
south.... then the business collapses.

It has happened thousands of times.

This is why that extra time one spends waiting in traffic can
lead to the collapse of an entire culture so to speak... at
some point the efforts and costs of production falls one
single penny below what is needed to sustain operations....

... collapse begins there.

A year later costs exceed net production by 10%... borrowing
puts it farther south, all on the slippery slope... work is
sent to china... the blue collar class can't earn above the
viability threshold... or pay taxes... the tax base collapses,
govt ends up with lots blubber, corrupt  and with no hope of
recovery.

that is the history of nations.

These tiny abuses, such as bogus tickets...or a corrupt court,
or one cop retiring at a cost that sucks up the tax base from
10 city blocks... just to pay that one cops retirement...  all
of that, even though minor in itself... is the factor that
pushes a situation south...    below the viability threshold.

Personally in the US this is an epidemic problem.

What one can do:

Take care of yourself..  without great health you will go fast
onto the slippery slope.  thats first.   Live under a bridge
if you must but get your rest and eat well.   No matter how
rich you get if you do not take great care of yourself...  it
all goes south.

Take care of ones associates..family and business relations
etc...with those strong, they will be there and able to keep
you successfully engaged.   Work only with people of the same
bent or the 'takers' can put you personally below the
viability threshold.. must taking 10% of a projects income, if
it puts cash flow below costs of operations, can begin the
bankrupcy cycle.

If the govt comes and wants the money you need  for heart
medicine, or some decent food and a great movie needed to keep
your interest up in life...  Think twice before cowering if
fear or working 16 hours a day while eating  junk food in
order to oblige them.

Those are the harbingers of black death for any culture.

You do your glorious government no favors in the end by
allowing abuse that forces you below the viability
threshold... then to personal non production and collapse...

that only decimates a nation.

Phil Scott
(415) 927 7573
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 19 Jul 2005 22:53 GMT
> .
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that tiny change in income can take him from progressing and
> viable...to slowly going south...

COMMENT:

The problem with this ridiculous exercise is that "greasy fast foods"
are always more expensive than whole healthy bread, eggs, canned goods,
and produce.  Why?  Because you have to pay the doofuses who flip the
burgers, AND their bosses, AND the franchise, etc, etc, etc.

Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
can be made for 30 cents. If you get past 50 cents, you're being a
luxury hog.

Of course, you have to do the work yourself.

SBH
Phil Scott - 20 Jul 2005 00:58 GMT
> > .
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> and produce.  Why?  Because you have to pay the doofuses who flip the
> burgers, AND their bosses, AND the franchise, etc, etc, etc.

 Hey no need to be a jerk...of course the guy has
options..but that not the point.. the point is clearly stated
and given..ones own error or combination of other factors can
push a person south across the viablitiy threshold.

  duhhh

> Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
> fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> SBH
George Cherry - 20 Jul 2005 01:03 GMT
>> .
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Of course, you have to do the work yourself.

Also the shoplifting--to get healthy meals for under 50 cents.

GWC
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 20 Jul 2005 03:48 GMT
> > Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
> > fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> GWC

COMMENT

George, bread is 5 cents a slice and generic multivits are 5 cents
each. Eggs can be had for 10 cents each. If you shop at COSTCO and know
what you're doing, you can survive indefinitely on $1.50 a day, even
without resorting to canned catfood (which is perfectly nutritious but
embarrassing).

I suggest a homework project for you. Come down from the irory tower.

SBH
George Cherry - 20 Jul 2005 18:07 GMT
>> > Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
>> > fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I suggest a homework project for you. Come down from the irory tower.

Okay, I'll figure out what I actually spend per meal,
but it's going to add up to a lot more than $0.50
per meal. Let's take the bread I eat (bread made
from organic whole sprouted grains and zero
fat). I estimate each slice (I don't have a loaf in front
of me) is about $0.20. I put raw organic almond
butter on it and pop a couple of fish oil capsules.
Hey, I've just started. Organic red beans with organic
spaghetti sauce (no salt). And then the fruit--an orange,
some blueberries, and an organic apple. And then
a little dairy--low-fat organic yogurt with a tablespoon
of psyillium hush powder stirred in. And then the
veggies: broccoli usually. And then a little dessert:
unsweetened organic apple sauce with a little
organic unsweetened cocoa. I must be way over a
buck by now. And then a glass of organic red wine
without sulphites.

GWC
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jul 2005 00:50 GMT
> >> > Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
> >> > fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> butter on it and pop a couple of fish oil capsules.
> Hey, I've just started.

COMMENT:

Well, Jesus, George, it's going to be even more if you include the
Beluga caviar on the toast points.

One hopes the point was not that a person has to shoplift in order to
continue the spouted ground bread raw organic almond lifestyle to which
they've become accustomed. The point is you can stay alive on 50 cents
a meal without becoming malnourished. Whether or not your maximum life
span will be affected is something I can't tell. Probably, if you can't
afford the molecularly distilled fishoil, wild blueberry juice,
nanoemulsified CoQ10 and the particular hand-dug Cordyceps sinensis
smuggled out of a particular Buddhist monestary in mountains of Tibet.

SBH
George Cherry - 22 Jul 2005 06:19 GMT
>> >> > Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of
>> >> > canned
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> nanoemulsified CoQ10 and the particular hand-dug Cordyceps sinensis
> smuggled out of a particular Buddhist monestary in mountains of Tibet.

When we shopped today I tried to figure out what I would
buy for my next meal if I had only $0.50 to spend. I jumped
on a 15.5oz. (438g) can of Goya "Small Red Beans".
(These are the cheapest beans they sell at the Hannaford's
Super Market in York, Maine, where we usually shop.)
The can of beans was $0.49, so I was just under the $0.50
limit you set for me.

I chose small red beans because I like their taste, the 15.5oz
can would give me 24.5 grams of protein, about 85% of my
daily value of fiber, about 1/3 of my daily value of iron,
about 14% of my daily requirement of calcium, and a nice
slug of anti-oxidants (Small Red Beans are a very rich source
and anti-oxidants.) The whole can would give me only 315
calories. That's more Calorie Restriction (less than 1000
calories per day) than even this CRON practitioner wants
to practice. Furthermore, I don't think I'd hit the ON part of
CRON (Optimum Nutrition).

Of course, I could buy a #10 can of dried Small Red Beans,
soak 'em, and simmer 'em for 2.5 to  3.0 hours. But that's
a lot of trouble and a lot of propane.

But I'd have $0.03 left if I ate a can of Goya beans for every
meal. Maybe I could buy a few loose grapes in the produce
department and get a little Resveratrol. And maybe I could
collect my expelled gas and try to use it instead of propane.

Well, I think I'll just continue to be a super "luxury hog".
But I think someone impecunious should check out
Small Red Beans. I think they might give the most
nutrition bang for the buck.

GWC
st7 - 21 Jul 2005 09:32 GMT
> Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin cans of canned
> fruit and vegetables and beans (which are perfectly nutritious). Meals
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> SBH

        cost    unit        kcal   
sweet potato    0.59    1 lb        408.6   
egg        0.10    1 med        92   
milk. 1%    0.19    1 c        102   
cabbage        0.20    3 c         52.8   
flax seed    0.02    1 T        59   
banana        0.08    1 med        105   
oatmeal        0.10    4 oz dry    440   
tuna        0.13    1/4 can        50   
onion        0.14    4 oz           50   
lentils        0.15    4 oz dry    384   
generic multi    0.10    1        10   
gen. fish oil    0.20    1        10   
        $1.98            1763.4   

Add some extra virgin olive oil or avocado: add $0.20-$0.50
Add a tomato: another $0.30-$0.50
Add some lettuce: another $0.30-$0.50
Add some seasonal fruit: another $0.50-$1.00

This does not consider cooking or condiment costs.

I see this as at least $4 per day to make it palatable,
and to add a cup of coffee in the morning.
Phil Scott - 21 Jul 2005 10:04 GMT
>> Go actually price bread, canned meat, eggs, and #10 tin
>> cans of canned
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I see this as at least $4 per day to make it palatable,
> and to add a cup of coffee in the morning.

Well wonderful....does any of this change the fact of a
viablity threshold?   at all?    does it change it even one
faint millionth of a tiddle?

Nah... it issue remains of line that once crossed at whatever
level, either due to ignorance, or loss of the final sheckle
with with to by ones daily ration of a drop of olive oil...
the threshold is crossed.

That was the point of my remarks.

that there are viability thresholds, across all aspects of
life...and that when any are crossed... the whole can of worms
dies off.

Sorry.  thats just how it is.

Will it always be true that some super bright or rescourceful
folks will manage a decent survival...oh yes.    One hopes
thats him or herself for sure.

There remains the absolute fact of a viability threshold...
you say oh no...I can always get my dram of olive oil... well
maybe..but thats really not the point.

I or anyone can show you nations in which millions starve to
death every month... or other nations that starve not at all
yet obliterate themselves by crossing other viablity
thresholds...such as political and corruption thresholds seen
in sub saharan africa...     etc.\

And we see very well off americans... with retirements of
10,000 dollars a month, retired SF police officers for
instance... now 400 lbs of inactive diabetic blubber with
alzheimers disease from those f.cking donuts.

    The viabilty threshold was crossed with grease you see.

That was the point.
One can do himself a favor and elect no to cross the viabilty
threshold of willful ignorance as well.    Ignorance may be in
the final analysis the most deadly of the thresholds to pass
headed south.

regards,
Phil Scott
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jul 2005 18:38 GMT
> I or anyone can show you nations in which millions starve to
> death every month...

COMMENT:

But not too many where millions have starved to death because they
crossed income line where the only meals they could afford was cheap
greasy fast food from the local franchise, as you suggested in your
essay. Get the point?

COMMENT:

or other nations that starve not at all
> yet obliterate themselves by crossing other viablity
> thresholds...such as political and corruption thresholds seen
> in sub saharan africa...     etc.\

COMMENT

Indeed, but these are not problems of assistace to the poor, or lack of
it. They are problems of bad political systems, which allow roving
bands of semi-autonomous armed bastards to starve poor sods who don't
have any. Got nothing to do with your essay premise.

> And we see very well off americans... with retirements of
> 10,000 dollars a month, retired SF police officers for
> instance... now 400 lbs of inactive diabetic blubber with
> alzheimers disease from those f.cking donuts.

COMMENT:

Again, not because they couldn't afford good food. Cops weighing 400
lbs because they had only enough money to buy donuts?  You are totally
out of your frigging mind.

See a shrink.

I'm done with you and this nitwit conversation.

SBH
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.