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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2005Visceral fat
Hi all, I'm 17 years old and male. Although I am skinny/thin and underweight as well I have lot of visceral fat which results in a very bloated and pooching abdomen/belly. This is quite strange as I'm both underweight and obese at the same time (being called such accumulation of visceral fat "central obesity") I'm trying to get rid of it especially for health reasons. I've bought a set of free weights and I'm not following any particular elitist diet but Walter Willett approach to focus on good carbs (legumes, low glycemic fruits, vegetables) good fat (nut, olive oil, fish) and healthy proteins (eggs, poultry) instead of worrying about the exact ratios. I would like to know what can I do to get rid of my belly fat. How can I lose weight if I'm already underweight? and if I am underweight because I'm undermuscled, how can gain muscle mass and losing visceral fat at the same time? Can I lose visceral fat while being on weight maintenance caloric intake? and if not how can I afford to be on a caloric deficit intake if losing weight would make me even more underweight and look like an anorexic? What's the best kind of exercize to lose visceral fat? Strength or cardio? Maybe my "problem" can be a pretext to discuss new information about the problem of visceral fat and how to lose it. Thanks in advance, David Check this website for some great explanation as to why so much obesity. www.releasingfat.com a website by a nutritionist - Dr Ray Strand who has become a rebel among his peers with books such as "What Your Doctor doesn't know about Nutritional Medicine Might be Killing You" If you like what you read and would like to try his recommendations or recommend it to others, visit www.trulyhealthyandwealthy.com or contact me at info@trulyhealthyandwealthy.com > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > David > I'm 17 years old and male. You have my condolences. :( > Although I am skinny/thin and underweight So, this caller is indeed mental who writes Fat Farm posts even though he is actually skinny!!! Yes, you are indeed nuts. :( > as well I have lot of > visceral fat which results in a very bloated and pooching > abdomen/belly. > This is quite strange as I'm both underweight and obese at the same > time You are nuts. That is bascially all you need to know about the subject. Want abs of steel instantly? Then don't eat for 12 hours. Follow with abdominal exercises. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! You have my condolences. :( > I'm 17 years old and male. You have my condolences. :( > Although I am skinny/thin and underweight So, this caller is indeed mental who writes Fat Farm posts even though he is actually skinny!!! Yes, you are indeed nuts. :( > as well I have lot of > visceral fat which results in a very bloated and pooching > abdomen/belly. > This is quite strange as I'm both underweight and obese at the same > time You are nuts. That is bascially all you need to know about the subject. Want abs of steel instantly? Then don't eat for 12 hours. Follow with abdominal exercises. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! You have my condolences. :( Mr-Natural-Health ha scritto: > > I'm 17 years old and male. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You are nuts. That is bascially all you need to know about the > subject. You forget that central obesity is indeed considered being overweight/obese. Central obesity is very different from subcutaneous obesity and it can manifest itself even with accumulation of visceral fat in an otherwise skinny body. Research a bit about central obesity, understand the difference between visceral fat and subcutaneous fat and maybe "maybe" things will make more sense in your mind (don't hold you breath though) You have my condolences :\ J. David > > > I'm 17 years old and male. > > > > You have my condolences. :( > You forget that central obesity is indeed considered being > overweight/obese. No! I got the key points. You actually think that a guy having a 34 inch waist is central obesity. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! You are a fruit, a 17 year old male, don't know if you are fat or skinny, a know it all, and a classic troll. :( That is all you need to know about the subject. :) >> > > I'm 17 years old and male. >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That is all you need to know about the subject. :) To each its own. You're an idiot, childish as very few 3 years old can be and so old that your free radicals have already destroyed 3/4 of your brain and cognitive faculties. Unfortunately you're allowed to vote, that's the real problem :( That is all I need to know about the subject. J. David > Unfortunately you're allowed to vote, > that's the real problem :( With any luck, you will get yourself killed before you vote. Charles Darwin told me so. :) You have my condolences. >> Unfortunately you're allowed to vote, >> that's the real problem :( > > With any luck, you will get yourself killed before you vote. Charles > Darwin told me so. :) With any luck, someone will kill you before you have the chance to cast another vote. Common sense tells me > You have my condolences. You won't have my condolences, and I'm sure you won't have the condolences of anyone when that lucky day will come. J. David This is very funny, in that a relative who had a real nasty streak used to say about me: "how could someone so skinny be so fat." Now I get a good laugh from it, but at the time, when I was in my late teens also, it was just irritating. When I switched to a vegan diet around the age of 20, that puffiness in the torso went away. I didn't know what to attribute it to at the time, but now I'd say it was the oxidative stress, due to the oils I consumed. I went from a corn oil based diet to a low fat diet, with nuts, seeds, beans, and grains being my fat sources. I ate the seeds and nuts raw. Thus, I ate less fat and the fat I ate had much more antioxidant protection than the cheap, refined corn oil (that was then fried). The evidence has been around a long time. You can look up some of JoAnn Braganza's papers (about the dangers of highly unsaturated oils) from the 1980s at pubmed.com Here's a report that is clear, yet not too technical, from www.sciencedaily.com: 5/2/2005 Food Fried In Vegetable Oil May Contain Toxic Compound MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL -- University of Minnesota researchers A. Saari Csallany, a professor of food chemistry and nutritional biochemistry, and graduate student Christine Seppanen have shown that when highly unsaturated vegetable oils are heated at frying temperature (365 F) for extended periods--or even for half an hour--a highly toxic compound, HNE (4-hydroxy-trans-2-nonenal) forms in the oil. Previously, vegetable oils such as soybean, sunflower and corn were regarded as heart-healthy because of their high levels of linoleic acid, a polyunsaturated fatty acid. HNE is incorporated into fried food in the same concentration as it forms in the heated oil. Also, Csallany and her colleagues have found three toxic HNE-related compounds (known as HHE, HOE and HDE) in heated soybean oil. They will present their work at a poster session from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. Wednesday, May 4, at the 96th annual meeting of the American Oil Chemists Society in the Salt Lake City Convention Center. "HNE is a well known, highly toxic compound that is easily absorbed from the diet," said Csallany. "The toxicity arises because the compound is highly reactive with proteins, nucleic acids--DNA and RNA--and other biomolecules. HNE is formed from the oxidation of linoleic acid, and reports have related it to several diseases, including atherosclerosis, stroke, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, Huntington's and liver diseases." Csallany's work underscores the risk of repeated heating, or reusing, highly unsaturated oils for frying because HNE accumulates with each heating cycle. In future studies, Csallany and her colleagues plan to determine how long polyunsaturated oil must be heated at lower temperatures in order to form HNE and its related compounds. The study was funded by the University of Minnesota. montygram ha scritto: > This is very funny, in that a relative who had a real nasty streak used > to say about me: "how could someone so skinny be so fat." Now I get a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > JoAnn Braganza's papers (about the dangers of highly unsaturated oils) > from the 1980s at pubmed.com <cut> What about extra virgin olive oil on a dark bottle? What about coconut oil? I read it is not considered a *bad* fat anymore as it is mainly lauric acid (an healthy fat found on mother milk too) rather than myristic or palmitic. How could your diet be low fat if you ate nuts and seeds? Unless you used to eat very few of them eating nuts and seeds may result in a diet way higher in fat content than the standard american diet. Thanks J. David On 4 Jul 2005 02:31:24 -0700, Jimmy wrote in <news:1120469484.304470.35180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> on sci.med.nutrition : > montygram ha scritto: >> This is very funny, in that a relative who had a real nasty streak used [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > as it is mainly lauric acid (an healthy fat found on mother milk too) > rather than myristic or palmitic. Guess what food is the highest in myristic acid? According to the INRAN (Italian Nutrion Institute) data base (that lets me sort foods by nutrient), that is cocounut oil (17 g / 100 g). > How could your diet be low fat if you ate nuts and seeds? Unless you > used to eat very few of them eating nuts and seeds may result in a diet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > J. David Coconut oil is usually best because it's 92% saturated, meaning that it is most resistant to free radical degradation, all things being equal. However, the 8% unsaturated fatty acids can be very nasty, so you want to buy the highest quality. My favorite is Coconut Oil Supreme, which I got over the internet. However, I usually use butter for low heat cooking, but I always skim the yellow film off the sides of the sticks - that is free radical degradation (called lipid peroxidation). I do like shredded coconut, which I get at a great price, and then grind into a powder. It then goes well with almost everything. If the olive oil is truly high quality, and if you don't damage it by cooking incorrectly, then it should be fine, but how would you know? There was a scam in Italy a few years ago. A company was selling low quality olive oil as extra virgin, first pressed organic. It took a while for anyone to notice. That is a big problem, as well as transportation, storage, etc. With the coconut oil, it should taste like fresh coconut, or else you know it's not the best. This is not true of other oils, unless you have tested them under lab conditions, as company testers do. I also want to make clear that I do not advocate a vegan diet of nuts, seeds, beans, whole grains, etc. I was always hungry and out of energy. However, the gastrointestinal problems did go away, and now I realize that was due to the lipid peroxidation. When I went to Greek restaurants, and ate the greasy falafel, my guts felt like they did on the old corn oil diet. Otherwise, I was almost always okay - that was the only greasy thing I ate for 14 years. Now my diet is high in fat, but most of the fatty acids are saturated, and so there's no lipid peroxidation problem (plus I eat berries, dark chocolate, white tea, and other food high in antioxidants). montygram ha scritto: > Coconut oil is usually best because it's 92% saturated, meaning that it > is most resistant to free radical degradation, all things being equal. Which wouldn't explain though how thousands of nutrition and epidemilogical studies show myristic, stearic and palmitic acid having a detrimental effect on human health and body. Probably the reason why certain saturated fats seem to have a good effect and other saturated fats seem to have a bad effect is to be found on the kind of fat consumed rather than their saturation, clearly certain saturated fats are okay while other are anything but healthy. J. David Yes, I've addressed this, but you've got it the wrong way around. Epidemiological studies examine "markers," and in the case of coconut oil, it is said that it is "atherogenic" because it raises cholesterol levels, but if cholesterol is only a problem if it is oxidized, then coconut oil is the best fat source, because it oxidizes less than any other, assuming it is not refined. If what you and these "studies" say is accurate, Asians on coconut oil diets would have been dying of heart disease in huge numbers, yet the opposite is true. Look at the WHO statistics. Compared to Western nations, these "primitive" peoples hardly ever die of heart disease, even though they are consuming huge amounts of saturated fatty acids. I have already addressed how "saturated fat" isn't even defined in a way that would satisfy basic scientific methodological requirements, and yet that is what is being done by "nutritional experts" and "epidemiologists" all the time. At least the epidemiologists admit that if they start off with incorrect assumptions, the results are meaningless, and in this case they are horribly misleading. Actual experiments done on people who eat almost all their fat calories from coconut or animals fed coconut demonstrates this, for example: "Cholesterol, coconut, and diets on Polynesian atolls: a natural experiment: the Pukapuka and Tokelau Island Studies." Ian A. Prior, M.D., et. al. (The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 34: August 1981, pp. 1552-1561). Quotation from the abstract: "Vascular disease is uncommon in both populations and there is no evidence of the high saturated fat intake have a harmful effect in these populations." Quotation from the text: "The migration of Tokelau Islanders from their atolls to the very different environment of New Zealand is associated with changes in lipids that indicate increased risk of atherogenesis. This is associated with an actual fall in saturated fat intake... and an increase in carbohydrate and sugar." "Pancreatic Disease: A casualty of hepatic 'detoxification'?" J.M. Braganza. The Lancet; October 29, 1983, pp. 1000-1003). Quotation from the text: "...induction [of pancreatic disease] is facilitated by an ample supply of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids... Lipid peroxidation occurs biologically when oxygen free radicals attack polyunsaturated fats, such as those in cell membranes... the products of lipid peroxidation are among the most cytotoxic substances known and they may also generate powerful bioactive substances, including key regulators of the inflammatory response, as well as a wide range of carcinogenic compounds... In the USA the pattern of intake has changed; polyunsaturated fats contribute a much higher proportion than previously [and this was in 1983, before the big canola oil push; canola oil is about 37% polyunsaturated fatty acids]... There is little that clinicians can do to halt the progress of chronic pancreatitis and pancreatic disease..." [but you can just stop eating foods that contain more than a trace amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids]. Find me one "study" of a group of people who ate fresh coconut as their major source of fat (at least 95%) for 20 years or more, and had more than a tiny incidence of heart disease. You can't, because this has never happened. Please, use your ability to think for yourself. If you do, you'll realize how ludicrous claims against saturated fatty acids are. The claims against "saturated fat" are impossilbe to verify until a standard definition for this term is agreed upon by researchers. Lard, at 39% saturation, is almost always classified as a "saturated fat," yet I would never consume it, because with 60% or so unsaturated fatty acids, it's very dangerou (and considering its lack of antioxidant protection, it is probably more dangerous than vegetable oils that are higher in PUFAs, but also higher in antioxidants - asssuming that the antioxidants haven't all been refined out of the finished product). It is true that stearic acid, found in higher percentages in beef, aid iron absorption, and that this may be unhealthy if your diet is high in iron and unsaturated fatty acids. But as a recent study, which was posted and discussed on this NG a couple of months ago demonstrated, Asians have high iron levels but not the "chronic disease" that is associated with such levels. This is because if you pack your body with saturated fatty acids, you create a kind of biochemical shield. Just as coconut oil is 8% unsaturated but can last years without going rancid, even with no preservatives, so too will your body be able to resist oxidative damge, even something like skin cancer. In Bruce Fife's book "Saturated fat may save your life," there is a detailed discussion of this. I am going to start a new post, called tell me what is wrong with this study, in which I ask where the researchers, of the kind of evidence you place so much value in, went horribly wrong. See you there. On 5 Jul 2005 11:36:14 -0700, montygram wrote in <news:1120588574.018735.5540@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> on sci.med.nutrition : > Yes, I've addressed this, but you've got it the wrong way around. > Epidemiological studies examine "markers," and in the case of coconut [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > hardly ever die of heart disease, even though they are consuming huge > amounts of saturated fatty acids. [...] Well, that might happen for different reasons as well. The WHO data show that their life expectancy is shorter: maybe one dies of other causes before one has time enough to die of heart disease? I recall seeing studies that indicate that stearic acid is harmless. >You forget that central obesity is indeed considered being >overweight/obese. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >You have my condolences :\ Johnny boy doesn't deserve your condolences. John the "man", twit extraodinaire, has refused my strongly voiced suggestions in the past to get a lobotomy. He didn't, the rest is history. RBR Nutrition. 2005 Jul-Aug;21(7-8):867-73. Related Articles, Links Dietary phosphatidylcholine alleviates fatty liver induced by orotic acid. Buang Y, Wang YM, Cha JY, Nagao K, Yanagita T. Department of Applied Biological Sciences, Saga University, Saga, Japan. OBJECTIVE: We compared the effect of dietary phosphatidylcholine (PC) with that of triacylglycerol (TG), both with the same fatty acid profiles, on fatty infiltration in orotic acid (OA)-induced fatty liver of Sprague-Dawley rats. METHODS: Rats were fed an OA-supplemented diets containing TG (TG + OA group) or PC (20% of dietary lipid, PC + OA group) for 10 d. Rats fed the TG diet without OA supplementation served as the basal group. RESULTS: Administering OA significantly increased the weights and TG accumulation in livers of the TG + OA group compared with the basal group. These changes were attributed to significant increases in the activities of fatty acid synthase, malic enzyme, and glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase, which are fatty acid synthetic enzymes, and phosphatidate phosphohydrolase, a rate-limiting enzyme of TG synthesis. However, the PC + OA group did not show TG accumulation and OA-induced increases of these enzyme activities. Further, a significant increase in the activity of carnitine palmitoyl transferase, a rate-limiting enzyme of fatty acid beta-oxidation, was found in the PC + OA group. CONCLUSIONS: Dietary PC appears to alleviate the OA-induced hepatic steatosis and hepatomegaly, mainly through the attenuation of hepatic TG synthesis and enhancement of fatty acid beta-oxidation in Sprague-Dawley rats. PMID: 15975496 [PubMed - in process] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking |
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