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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2005Re: Imperative / iron stores / diabetes
Here is the bottom line on iron and the risk of diabetes: Dietary iron intake and blood donations in relation to risk of type 2 diabetes in men: a prospective cohort study http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/1/70 "Conclusions: Heme-iron intake from red meat sources is positively associated with the risk of type 2 diabetes. Total iron intake, heme-iron intake from non-red meat sources, and blood^ donations are not related to the risk of type 2 diabetes." Giving blood makes no difference in risk of diabetes, eating poultry and fish and other such animal food sources doesn't increase risk, the total amount of iron consumed doesn't increase risk either. Because it is only red meat that shows some association and because iron can not be shown to be a cause of diabetes, it is just as likely that the saturated fat in red meat is more of an important risk for getting diabetes. Sorry your theory doesn't work out like you wanted to make it do. Invent all the ideas you want, when we look at real people in the real world can the answer be found and iron is not the cause of diabetes. Simple singel sources rarely are the answer in such complex disorders as diabetes, it may play a part, but it is not the reason diabetes starts.. :: Here is the bottom line on iron and the risk of diabetes: :: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] :: the answer in such complex disorders as diabetes, it may play a :: part, but it is not the reason diabetes starts.. Poultry and fish on average have much lower levels of heme iron than red meat. I think that Tom is right here.  SignatureJuhana So .. red meat somehow comes into the .. picture .. ? The whole .. thread has to do with .. iron .. stores .. S-T-O-R-E-S .. That is the .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. of .. iron .. Meat iron tends to buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body .. Plant iron .. does NOT .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body .. Logic says .. fish iron / chicken iron / pork iron / dog iron / cat iron / snake iron .. will ALL .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body .. Waffle all you want .. blood iron tends to buildup.. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body .. COMPOUNDED by the FACT .. blood iron binds TO all other iron and causes it TOO .. to be absorbed at this high rate which causes it TOO to be .. what .. ? .. buildup.. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body ..? Yes .. You are .. catching .. on .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking The study said total iron did not indicate a risk factor for diabetes, it said eating fish and poultry is not a risk factor, it said bloodletting makes no difference in risk. Each of those thre items undercuts your iron causes all diseases idea and those three excludes it's validity, any one of them would do it, here we have three in just one article; it doesn't get any better or clearer then that scientifically. In science we don't prove an idea, we fail to disprove it. In this one article your entire idea is disproven so we can now put it in some dusty corner with all the other curious ideas people have invented but have been proven wrong that litter the history of science. The iron from the meat we eat builds to HIGHER .. levels ..than the iron from plants can achieve and this causes a HIGHER than .. normal .. level of .. iron .. in the body which leads to disease from toxic levels of iron . Get .. the .. drift .. yet .. ? MEAT eating .. that would include EVERYCREATUREWALKINGFLYINGCRAWLING .. leads to elevated iron levels .. Elevated BEING .. higher than .. vegetarians .. Pretty simple .. stuff .. STILL .. too hard .. for some .. Heh .. heh .. <<snip>> Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more insulin sensitive and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In addition, it seems that reduced insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters is amenable to improvement by reducing body Fe. <<snip>> Br J Nutr 2001 Oct;86(4):515-9 Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo vegetarians. Hua NW, Stoohs RA, Facchini FS Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, San Francisco General Hospital, San Francisco, CA, USA. [Medline record in process] The efficacy of insulin in stimulating whole-body glucose disposal (insulin sensitivity) was quantified using direct methodology in thirty lacto-ovo vegetarians and in thirty meat-eaters. All subjects were adult, lean (BMI <23 kg/m2), healthy and glucose tolerant. Lacto-ovo vegetarians were more insulin sensitive than meat-eaters, with a steady-state plasma glucose (mmol/l) of 4.1 (95 % CI 3.5, 5.0) v. 6.9 (95 % CI 5.2, 7.5; respectively. In addition, lacto-ovo vegetarians had lower body Fe stores, as indicated by a serum ferritin concentration (mg/l) of 35 (95 % CI 21, 49) compared with 72 (95 % CI 45, 100) for meat-eaters To test whether or not Fe status might modulate insulin sensitivity, body Fe was lowered by phlebotomy in six male meat-eaters to levels similar to that seen in vegetarians, with a resultant approximately 40 % enhancement of insulin-mediated glucose disposal Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more insulin sensitive and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In addition, it seems that reduced insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters is amenable to improvement by reducing body Fe. The latter finding is in agreement with results from animal studies where, no matter how induced, Fe depletion consistently enhanced glucose disposal. PMID: 11591239, UI: 21475355 _________________________________________________________________ Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking The science says this about iron and risk of diabetes, total iron doesn't increase risk, iron from fish and poultry and simil doesn't either, nor does the rate of bloodletting change risk. Those three, only one is required, undermine fataly the iron causes all disease idea. The idea will remain dead until evidence to the contrary can be shown, that is how real science works, not the pick and choose to spin a favorite idea as science game. No number of posts showing too much iron is associated with some disorders will do, a post to the contrary must show that the three items above are incorrect, all of them must be shown as any of the three makes the idea dead. Actually science DOES show .. iron levels to be linked to diabetes .. What part of the medical studies I've posted which say .. "iron levels CLEARLY associated with diabetes .. " .. don't .. you understand ..? Pretty much spells it out .. Researchers .. say .. it .. Just because YOU say it doesn't .. makes it somehow ..so .. ? Heh .. heh .. Fk .. off .. You're just a stupid .. fk .. No .. reason .. to BE .. in .. medical newsgroups .. except that you are .. sick .. So .. stick with being .. sick .. That is about ALL you are .. good .. at .. A .. drain .. on health care .. services .. Heh . heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking What is an "fk"? Are you a baby? Do you think it has another meaning? Do you think we will know what you meant and think you are a better person because of your stupid religious superstitions? Will the Devil reach up and grab you for it? Get you soul? For Christ's sake f.ck off > Actually science DOES show .. iron levels to be linked to diabetes .. > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking No .. I don't think .. I .. will .. Maybe you should just .. STFU .. See the thread ..? It has something to do with iron and diabetes ..? I'll spell it for you .. i-r-o-n .. d-i-a-b-e-t-e-s .. Say something about .. iron OR .. diabetes .. OR .. stfu .. Too hard for ya .. ? Must .. be .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking.. SUFO then > No .. I don't think .. I .. will .. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking.. Mr. justice, you list bible verses which talk about blood and how hebrew dietary laws say not to consume it. Iron is stored in all parts of an animal including humans. Avoiding blood as a food doesn't mean that the meat the hebrews ate didn't contain iron as a normal part of it. God doesn't say not to eat meat but just blood. When cain and able made sacrifices, which was accepted, the vegetables or the meat? When hebrews took an animal to the temple to sacrificed, the priest burned only a small part of it, the rest was taken home and eaten. It appears your "code" has failed you to support that we are not to eat meat when examples of it in scripture are so common. So if your idea that iron causes all disease starts with the part where God says don't eat meat, then it can be stopped right there and there is no reason to think anymore about it. "Since the SAME .. 'code' .. I used to ALSO .. discern/interpret/find .. the 'message' of vegetarianism of Christ .. I ALSO used to discern/interpret/find .. the bloodletting for all disease ..? Bloodletting has now been shown to be the ONLY TREATMENT AVAILABLE .. for the number 1 disease in the Jewish ..found in a Jewish book about a Jewish ..doctor ..? Coincidence is just too great .." Nope, we did the definitive study on this question using the latest code algorithm from israel and that view is now clearly not in the cards. Jesus ate animal products, encouraged his followers to do likewise, made a public display to thousands by example to eat animal products, and also by following the hebrew customs of consuming animal products at religious occasions. Our code confirms this in tthe clearest terms. All this in a book written by many jews, about Jesus a jew, and in a jewish region with mostly jewish customs, how much greater can a Coincidence be then that? Now science, the article showed that bloodletting doesn't change risk of diabetes, total amount of iron does not, nor does eating fish and poultry and other animal products. That is 3 fatal blows to your idea that iron is the cause of all disease, if your idea was correct the results would have to be exactly the oppisite. Dear Mr. Justice, I accept your concession that you can not answer the original article scientifically and that it puts your idea in final and fatal jeopardy. To review, bloodletting doesn't affect risk of diabetes, nor does total iron, nor eating animal products such as fish and poultry. These three direct contridictions, only one is needed, to your idea that iron is the cause of all disease stand and your idea is now put aside as not science. One is always free to accept such an idea on the basis of religion of course and the practices you suggest are just fine. There are many religions which have food restrictions and your's fall within these and one is free to accept them or not, but not on the basis of science but as what is thought to be a revelation. The many iron related articles you post are just fine also and they are science. They outline how iron can be involved when it is too high with medical problems. But the iron is in most cases not the cause of the conditionbut a secondary effect. What is most important is that they do not contridict the three findings above and they do not lend themselves to the idea that ALL disease is caused by iron. In many cases they support the oppisite case, that disease can cause high iron. We haven't touched upon the other side of the coin, the clear medical problems of having too little iron, this is the world's number one nutritional problem among women and children. |
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