Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / June 2005
PETA Kills Animals
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TC - 22 Jun 2005 19:42 GMT http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2056
Murderers.
TC
TC - 22 Jun 2005 19:46 GMT > http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2056 > > Murderers. > > TC http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88133&ran=19014&tref=po
Another N.C. county cuts ties to PETA after charges
Sgt. Jeremy S. Roberts of the Ahoskie, N.C., Police Department describes on Friday how he saw people casting animal carcasses into this garbage bin behind a grocery store two days before. Two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals were arrested in the case. DREW WILSON / THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
Days after two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals were arrested on animal cruelty charges, Bertie County, N.C., officials said they were stunned to learn that the group had euthanized most of the animals it had taken from shelters in the northeastern part of the state.
Despite a written apology from PETA President Ingrid Newkirk, the Bertie County Board of Commissioners voted unanimously Monday to cut all ties to the group.
The two PETA employees were arrested last week after police saw bags of dead animals being dumped in a trash bin in a supermarket parking lot.
Bertie County Manager Zee Lamb said Tuesday that he thought the animals were being taken for evaluation and "the ones that were adoptable would be adopted."
Euthanasia, Lamb said, was understood to be used only "as a last resort."
Bertie joined Northampton County officials, who decided last week to stop working with PETA until the case against the two employees is resolved.
Documents filed by PETA with the state of Virginia showed that in 2001, 2002 and 2003, about 6,100 domestic animals were euthanized - about 83 percent of the animals that owners surrendered to the organization. Many animals are brought in by owners to be spayed or neutered and returned.
Many of the animals in Virginia had been euthanized at the request of their owners, said Daphna Nachminovitch, director of PETA's domestic animal and wildlife department.
Nachminovitch said she did not know how many animals had been taken in North Carolina or how many had been adopted or euthanized.
Newkirk's letter to Bertie County commissioners, though, stated: "We were able to place a small number of animals ... but the condition of most rural strays and given-up animals makes that impossible."
PETA's adoption rate - about 19 percent from 2001- 03 - is lower than that at some other animal control services, such as Isle of Wight County Animal Control, where the adoption rate spiked to 70 percent last year.
The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is that PETA never turns away an animal.
"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said.
All animals, however, should be examined by a veterinarian to see if they can be adopted or should be killed, she said.
Even animals that are deemed healthy enough to live are eventually euthanized when PETA cannot find a good home for them, Nachminovitch said.
People tend to want young, house-trained, healthy animals. Many of the animals taken in North Carolina were strays, and some had contagious and severe diseases, she said.
"Did we euthanize some animals who could have been adopted? Maybe," Nachminovitch said. "The point is that good homes are few and far between ... Our aim here was to stop them from dying an agonizing death."
Police began investigating because carcasses wrapped in plastic bags were found in trash bins at a Piggly Wiggly supermarket every Wednesday for four straight weeks. At least 80 animals were found dumped.
Officers say that on June 15 they followed a van registered to PETA after it left Bertie County's animal shelter, staked out the garbage bins and arrested two PETA employees after watching animal carcasses being thrown away.
They found 18 dead dogs in a bin and 13 other animal carcasses in the van.
Andrew B. Cook, 24, of Virginia Beach, and Adria J. Hinkle, 27, of Norfolk, were both charged with 31 felony counts of animal cruelty, eight misdemeanor counts of illegal disposal of dead animals and one count of trespassing.
A probable cause hearing was set for July 19. PETA will pay for Cook's and Hinkle's legal representation, Newkirk said on Friday.
Hinkle has been suspended for 90 days, but Cook, who was hired only weeks ago as her assistant, has not been suspended.
Nachminovitch said euthanizing animals and dumping the carcasses into trash bins violates PETA policy.
PETA typically takes animals from North Carolina to Norfolk, where those deemed unfit for adoption are killed with a fast-acting lethal injection. Newkirk said in a news conference Friday.
Only veterinarians hired by PETA are supposed to kill animals in North Carolina, she said.
"There is no reason for what happened, and there is no excuse for what happened," Nachminovitch said.
Virginia law states that domestic animals, such as those PETA was transporting, must be accompanied by a note from a veterinarian saying the animals are healthy and fit to travel before entering the commonwealth, said Elaine Lidholm, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.
Lidholm said she did not know whether PETA had obtained the proper documents for moving animals into Virginia.
"We were not aware PETA was transporting sick animals across the state line for euthanasia," she said.
Asked if Hinkle had been getting notes from veterinarians, Nachminovitch said, "That is something that has to do with the legal case, and I can't comment on that."
According to Newkirk's letter to commissioners, PETA started working with Bertie County in 2001 when a caller informed the group of poor conditions in the county's shelter.
As PETA explored other shelters, they found more troubling conditions.
For example, the Bertie County shelter had used a small gas chamber to kill animals until 2000, and some animals in Windsor, N.C., were killed with a .22-caliber bullet to the head, Nachminovitch said.
"These are all very outdated facilities," Nachminovitch said. "These are county pounds that have been here for decades."
Since 2001, PETA had expanded to serve shelters in Bertie, Hertford and Northampton counties and the Windsor town shelter.
PETA spent $250,000 in improvements to Bertie County's shelter and $65,000 on improvements in Northampton County and provided more than $9,000 to an Ahoskie veterinarian who euthanized animals, Nachminovitch said.
The Ahoskie veterinarian, Patrick Proctor, said on Tuesday he would continue to euthanize animals with PETA's support, although three cats found in the trash bins were from his clinic. He said it is important for animals to be put to death in a humane way.
Northampton County has decided to stop working with PETA for an unknown period of time, although officials do not think animals from the Northampton shelter were among those found in the trash bins , said Sue Gay, health director for Northampton County.
PETA had sent people other than Hinkle to pick up animals from Northampton on a different day of the week, Gay said.
Gay said she assumed all animals taken from her county were intended to be examined, and that healthy ones would be put up for adoption.
Nachminovitch and others from PETA have stayed in touch with Bertie and Northampton officials despite the recent decisions made by county commissioners.
"One of our people made a very bad mistake, and I don't want the animals to suffer for it," Nachminovitch said.
--- Liars and murderers.
TC
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Jun 2005 21:38 GMT >>The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is that PETA never turns away an animal.
"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said. <<
COMMENT:
This is complete BS, of course. Your local animal shelter by law must take anything you bring it. And their 20% adoption rates are about the same as PETA's here in Southern California. In some cases even the local government shelters do better than PETA.
And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for, where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they were caught in well-nurished condition. There are many cats being fed out there which will not enter a home, or which are being fed by people unwilling to take them into their homes because they have behavior problems. So long as these are neutered, they do little harm to the community. They aren't even noisy. Dogs, of course, are a harder animal control problem.
SBH
George Cherry - 23 Jun 2005 02:29 GMT >>>The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is > that PETA never turns away an animal. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they > were caught in well-nurished condition. Maybe that's hard on the local bird population.
> There are many cats being fed > out there which will not enter a home, or which are being fed by people > unwilling to take them into their homes because they have behavior > problems. So long as these are neutered, they do little harm to the > community. Except for the birds.
> They aren't even noisy. Dogs, of course, are a harder animal > control problem. > > SBH Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 23 Jun 2005 02:57 GMT > And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for, > where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they > were caught in well-nurished condition.
>>Maybe that's hard on the local bird population. COMMENT:
No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.
I suppose if you're a "bird person," all this bugs you more. But I seem to have less sympathy for animals in their natural wild, even if they are cats. It's as though we have some extra responsiblity for animals we've taken out of their normal environment and overbred. When abandoned, they're in a truly impossible position without even the chance of a bird or mouse.
Or it may be that if I thought hard about the plight of the average animal in the wild, I really would go nuts. So I pretend "la-la-la-la" that it's like Bambi out there.
SBH
George Lagergren - 23 Jun 2005 03:38 GMT > No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in > danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside > time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact > that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and > flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for > it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter. A cat is basically a tiger, right?
George Cherry - 23 Jun 2005 04:37 GMT >> No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in >> danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > A cat is basically a tiger, right? Right, and both can be domesticated. There's a Buddhist monastery in Thailand that offers a sanctuary to about one dozen tigers. The monks form very affectionate bonds with the tigers. The tigers submit to being walked on leashes (something my Standard Poodle has yet to learn well). Google <tigers buddhist monks> and you can see some of the touching pictures and videos of these cross-species friendships. It must be thrilling to have five large tigers take turns nuzzling you.
George
George Cherry - 23 Jun 2005 03:48 GMT >> And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for, >> where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside > time, than from feral cats. Quite true. Our neighbor's cat has gotten at least one of the yellow finches from our "Backyard Wildlife Habitat".
> Simply due to the numbers, and the fact > that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. Right, birds are toys for cats when they're not food for cats.
> A lust for feathers and > flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Or it may be that if I thought hard about the plight of the average > animal in the wild, I really would go nuts. Don't go there. If you can't fix it, then pretend it's not broken.
> So I pretend "la-la-la-la" > that it's like Bambi out there. > > SBH TC - 22 Jun 2005 19:55 GMT > http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2056 > > Murderers. > > TC http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88131&ran=99846
PETA has not shied away from euthanasia of dogs, cats
Ingrid Newkirk
By INGRID NEWKIRK, PETA PRESIDENT,
The ugly issue of animal population and euthanasia - and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals' struggle with it - has been in the spotlight because of the arrests of two of our workers. Like it or not, exposure to the issue is a good thing.
PETA was first invited to help animals in North Carolina by a police officer appalled by conditions at the Bertie County Pound. We found that some of these "shelters" are just shacks without heating in which animals have been left to drown during floods or freeze to death in winter.
We found that animals in underfunded, impoverished pounds were being killed in hideous, violent ways. Animals were being shot with a .22 behind a shed and forced into windowless metal boxes to be gassed. We also discovered some dogs and cats were being slowly suffocated after being injected with a drug that only paralyzes the body.
Life had dealt these animals a rotten hand. At the very least, they deserved a peaceful death. So, although PETA's main work is not in sheltering, we stepped in to provide quick and painless euthanasia by injection, free of charge, thus ending the outdated, barbaric killings.
Over the past few years, PETA has worked to provide training, personnel, money and supplies to help good people in struggling agencies in North Carolina clean up these pounds. The counties are impoverished, so there is a long way to go. We have spent more than $250,000 on veterinary and other services in Bertie County alone, and far more in Hampton Roads.
Each dollar spent means a needy animal is given warmth from the cold, shelter from rain or hot sun, fresh water, nutritious food, veterinary care and, quite often, the first gentle touch it has ever known.
PETA submitted several proposals to North Carolina officials and attended several meetings where we offered - begged, really - to be allowed to implement, among other things, an on-site adoption program. We have pushed for such a program since 2003. Officials were not interested in our offer.
We have also delivered hundreds of free sturdy dog houses and fresh straw in winter to dogs in homes who have been left chained by their owners to metal barrels or trees. We have paid to spay and neuter thousands of dogs and cats.
The tragedy is that there are not enough good homes for all the animals in shelters and pounds. It is only this harsh reality that has convinced us that euthanasia is a kindness for dogs and cats born into a world that doesn't want them, has not cared for them, and ultimately has abandoned them .
And, while people patronize pet shops where dogs and cats can be bought on a credit card, seek purebreds from breeders who add to the population overload, and fail to spay and neuter their animals or keep animals for a lifetime, euthanasia will continue. As long as it does continue, it should be done with kindness, so that each animal will know comfort in the last minutes of life .
Although we have placed dogs and cats from North Carolina in homes, most dogs we have been given were in terrible condition, many with contagious conditions like Parvo virus or severe mange. They have untreated injuries and oozing infections from being hit by cars, have been stabbed or burned, are aggressive, or are simply not attractive to people, most of whom are looking for small, cute, housebroken puppies without medical problems.
You can see some of the suffering animals we have put out of their misery, and the joyful ones we have found homes for, on www.HelpingAnimals.com.
Recently, two PETA staff members were found disposing of animal bodies in a completely improper way after euthanasia. We won't tolerate that and we took immediate action.
Now we - and this means all of us - are left with the larger issue. We can stop euthanasia, but to do it we need caring people to join us to curb the animal overpopulation crisis.
Please, spay and neuter your dogs and cats and help those with low incomes to do the same. Never buy from breeders or pet shops, but instead patronize your local shelters. Distribute our literature to educate others. Press for legislation to grant incentives to sterilize animals.
Only when there is a good home for every dog and cat can the all-admission shelters (those that open their doors to every needy animal) and PETA stop doing society's dirty work.
Ingrid Newkirk is president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (www.PETA.org) in Norfolk.
-------
1) What have PETA done with the millions it raises every year that they can't find any money to give these animals some place to live?
2) Can they not build a facility?
3) Where are the thousands of PETA members who claim to love animals? Why are they not adopting these poor creatures?
4) What about the dignity of the deceased animals? Is it appropriate to just throw them in a dumpster?
It sounds as if PETA has failed in following their simple, basic, fundamental beliefs. ie. animals deserve respect and love. Instead they are willing to take millions of dollars from donors every year, get their names in the papers, and then not waste any of the money to actually take care of the few animals they get possession of. Too inconvenient to actually have to pay for and handle and care for the animals. Easier to kill them off. Out of sight, out of mind.
Greedy, glory-seeking hypocrites. The whole bunch of them.
TC
Jim Chinnis - 23 Jun 2005 01:17 GMT "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>It sounds as if PETA has failed in following their simple, basic, >fundamental beliefs. ie. animals deserve respect and love. Instead they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >TC I agree with you, TC. PETA never has had the ideals it claims. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 22 Jun 2005 20:50 GMT >>Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<< COMMENT:
My lab has fostered several hundred kittens and cats for adoption at the local Petsmart, doing free neutering, spaying, virus testing, and administering vaccines and treating all kinds of parasites first. We get them from owners who know what happens when they take them to the pound.
The only two cats we euthanized in the last two years have been a pet with a horrid squamous cell mouth tumor (it was time), and a feral tomcat with FIV AND FeLV who became a vicious biter after we got through curing the mite diseases that had turned his heat and front quarters into an infected mass of cardboard-like skin and crust.
We are in the process of working with the local city council to turn the local animal shelter into a no-kill shelter, where no healthy animal is euthanized. We think it's possible to save 80% of the animals this way. Pilot programs in both rural New York State and city (San Francisco) areas suggest it's possible.
Neither the Humane Society nor PETA is any help in this process at all. PETA makes our research with dogs harder by making it impossible even to get already-euthanized dogs from the pound (we could use them for histology and thermal modeling). PETA figures these dogs have been "through enough" and deserve a quiet cremation without any chance to serve a better purpose. As for the Humane Society, they don't impede research, but they don't help that much with the pet problem, either. On the contrary, they seem to be fairly happy with the euthanasia status quo. About as happy as PETA is, apparently. PETA figures the big difference they make over the humane society is a *caress* before that Euthasol is given. Our animals get a caress, but also ketamine, acepromazine, and gas anesthesia. But we save many cats for every dog we kill, and we breed the research dogs ourselves. They're not pets.
I would personally like to kick Ingred Newkirk's behind up around her ears for the damage she's done to biomedical research. Failing that, I'd like to force her to learn how to spay kittens, then make her do few dozen, so she begins to have some innate understanding of the animal control problem she thinks she's an expert in.
DAMN I hate people who can only shoot their mouths off, and are ever good for any real work. People who criticise doctors without much contact with the practice of medicine. People who criticise biomedical research who have little understanding of science. People who have all kinds of answers to animal control who've never been in the trenches (or when they have, like PETA show their incompetence with solutions everybody else either figured out long ago, or are in the process of trying to change for the better.)
If I had PETA's 30 million a year I could convert a large part of Southern California to no-kill shelters.
By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their euthanasia. These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a separate DEA licence. We have a monster drug safe, lots of oversite, and all our i's are dotted and t's crossed. What about Ms. Newkirk? Hey, FEDS! Pay attention.
SBH
George Cherry - 23 Jun 2005 02:25 GMT >>>Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be >>>euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their > euthanasia. Helium maybe?
> These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA > number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > SBH Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 23 Jun 2005 03:00 GMT >>Helium maybe? << I think the PETA people have a lot of helium.
It's got to be cheaper than Nembutal.
George Cherry - 23 Jun 2005 04:06 GMT >>>Helium maybe? << > > I think the PETA people have a lot of helium. > > It's got to be cheaper than Nembutal. I suppose that since you're opposed to "good-death" for cats and dogs, you're also opposed to physician- assisted suicide? There are a substantial number of doctors in England pushing for physician-assisted suicide I have heard. I sympathize with them.
We euthanized our beloved Portuguese Water Dog, Gabbie, with Helium. (We didn't want a Vet to intrude on this family event.) She went very peacefully, in about 3-4 minutes. She was 13 and enduring a great deal of "dis-ease".
A graduate student at MIT died of Helium breathing a year or two ago. It was suspected that he was using it recreationally--and got "carried away". (There were no reports that he was depressed.)
I think it's good stuff when pain is unendurable and apparently incurable. As Woody Allen said, "I don't mind dying--I just don't want to be there when it happens."
George
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 23 Jun 2005 19:02 GMT >>I suppose that since you're opposed to "good-death" for cats and dogs, you're also opposed to physician- assisted suicide?<<
COMMENT:
This question assumes facts not in evidence. I"m not opposed to "good-death" in your sense for anybody or anything.
>>We euthanized our beloved Portuguese Water Dog, Gabbie, with Helium. (We didn't want a Vet to intrude on this family event.) She went very peacefully, in about 3-4 minutes. She was 13 and enduring a great deal of "dis-ease". <<
COMMENT:
That's fine, but you took a big risk. This kind of thing is species specific. We once had the bright idea of euthanizing a rabbit with inert gas (nitrogen) and it went nuts. Humans and (apparently) dogs don't have an "low-oxygen" sensor so they can breath inert gas and go out without any discomfort (nitrogen has been seriously and intelligently proposed for human gas chambers). Burrowing animals like rabbits and ferrets certainly do have a low oxygen sensor, so you wouldn't want to helium-ize THEM. For rodents and cats, I don't know. I can't swear this is confined to burrowing animals. That's the point, you never know till you try it. And if it doesn't work, be prepared to quit and try something else.
SBH
outrider@despammed.com - 24 Jun 2005 07:36 GMT > >>Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<< > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > SBH Steve who are you? Are you a physician, or a vet, or... ? What does "my lab" mean?
Zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Jun 2005 17:48 GMT I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. Our research model is the dog, which we breed in-house. We're also a cat/kitten rescue and adoption service on the side, figuring to make up for the bad dog-karma with some good cat-karma. We're under USDA inspection as a research facility, and our consulting vet is involved in both the research and the rescue work. This has given me the chance to learn some vet stuff. It's amazing how much it overlaps with human medicine. I would say 90% of it is the same.
SBH
outrider@despammed.com - 24 Jun 2005 18:27 GMT > I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing > basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SBH Ouch. The golden retriever here said something I can't repeat. I'll turn the monitor... .
Thanks for answering so candidly. I might have been PETA. Have you had incidents?
I've worked pr for a wildlife rehab and done stories on 'incidents' at a research lab. Seen cows with bras and windows in their sides geeeeeez and once raised more mice than you can imagine when one of my children had two as pets. How the hell was I supposed to know the pervert would copulate with all his daughters as soon as he could...? By the time it came to the white rats I knew better but the long pink tail that got me. I didn't mind the recycling worms, rather admired them, but when it came to the cockroaches brought home intentionally from entymology lab I kacked.
Now, I look after old, ill dogs whose owners have moved on to far flung universities, or when mom and dad, now childless but still with dog, want to go on month long ski holidays or just work in ICUs 20 hour shifts, but don't want to use kennels.
So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not?
zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 24 Jun 2005 20:08 GMT >>So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not? << COMMENT:
No, for the lovely thing about animal care is that it's pretty mechanistic, and if you can't figure out what's wrong with the animal, that's the end of it. The critter either dies, or gets better, or gets on with the disability, and doesn't spend all of it's time finding fault with the world. Where you need experience, is the human side, where for your enlightenment you must encounter a certain educational number of patients weak and dizzy, numb and tingly, with difficulty in memory and concentration (except when it comes to their symptom list), chronic fatigue (except when it comes to battling the medical and legal systems, where they have the strength and tenacity of Spiderman), fibromyalgia (well, actually it all hurts), and symptomatic problems with every single organ system. They've been dying of it for years, sometimes decades. Some you can find illness in with lab results, and some not. Obviously many of these people have some disease which does not yet have a name. But nevertheless like Nostradamus nearly all of them are convinced they can see into the future of medicine and they even now know the cause, and (more importantly) *who is at fault.* It's multiple chemical sensitivities and the poluting corporations. It's the mercury in their teeth or their vaccines, or other insidious heavy metals which need chelation. It's aspartame or Splenda or wheat gluten. And when these things are removed, the disease keeps on going. So what? It's undiagnosed Lyme disease or EBV or CMV or chronic virus du jour. It's mycoplasma picked up in the first gulf war, or some nerve gas antidote. Or some nerve gas. Or it's the anthrax vaccine. Or it's fluoride in the water, or IGF in the milk. Whatever-- the toxin list is nearly endless. But the main thing, is there's some axe to grind about it, and somebody who's gunna PAY.
In some primative populations such as the Indians of the Amazon, it's a common belief that people are naturally immortal. ALL disease and death is therefore due to curses, to some malignant influence of some other human being. The only trick, then, is to find the person who is doing the evil. I've come to believe from reading anthropology and lots of usenet that mankind is a natural witch-finding animal, and witch-hunting is nearly the only thing we humans do all the time when we're not thinking about food or sex or money or power or childcare. And sometimes even then. If you look at TV, you'll see it's nearly all witchhunting.
I've dealth with populations of naturally aging animals. I've seen most of the same problems humans get, there. But no animal witches have I discovered. As a doctor, I have dealt with the witchhunters. Sometimes I've even been confused with the witch (get between witchhunter and prey and see what happens). I've developed an aversion and fascination with the process, and there are times when the world appears to me very much like that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they're trying to figure out what to do with the witch. "And what floats?" "Wood" "Very small rocks". Well, yes and no. The question is whether or not we can make it out of the Dark Ages, or not. Part of what I'm doing on this forum is talking about density and froth flotation and skepticism and carrots on people's noses and burning at the stake.
And all the time I look at animals and I think of Walt Whitman:
I think i could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained I stand and look at them long and long . They do not sweat and whine about their condition , They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins , They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God , Not one is dissatisfied , not one is demented with the mania of owning things , Not one kneels to another , nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago , Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.
And all I can say is "Amen."
SBH
outrider@despammed.com - 24 Jun 2005 20:38 GMT > >>So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not? << > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > nearly endless. But the main thing, is there's some axe to grind about > it, and somebody who's gunna PAY. But I've suffered ALL those things!
I'm dizzy. What more do you want!!
Did all the other posters here have to run this gauntlet? What kinds of medical experts are they? David? Pizza Girl, TC...
Howcome I have to present qualifications? Ain't I a woman...?
> In some primative populations such as the Indians of the Amazon, it's a > common belief that people are naturally immortal. ALL disease and death [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > And all the time I look at animals and I think of Walt Whitman: Well apparently he knew little about animals; which will bite us and each other, kick--the same, stalk us and kill, nor has he seen just about any animal 'kneeling' to another of it's kind...they will all.
> I think i could turn and live with animals, > they are so placid and self-contained [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > And all I can say is "Amen." I'm an atheist. But since you used word it certainly does contradict some part of your answer.
Would you just set out the rings and hoops I have to jump through to be a member here? Google required nothing. Still, I do like a challenge...
Bring it on old man.
Zee
> SBH outrider@despammed.com - 26 Jun 2005 06:13 GMT > I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing > basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SBH Topics are resuscitation, liquid
> ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. Cryonics? (You didn't think I'd get that did you.)
I think you'd have to do a lot of cat karma to make up for killing dogs so wealthy wackos could be frozen until some time in the future when they're rescusitated with just, er...slight brain and other organ damage.
Zee
George Cherry - 26 Jun 2005 18:14 GMT >> I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing >> basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> SBH You forgot to add that you're a polymath who writes poetry (well, limericks) and waxes philosophically.
> Topics are resuscitation, liquid >> ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they're rescusitated with just, er...slight brain and other organ > damage. Yep, you spotted it, Zee. But what does saving cats do for the freeze-dried dogs? Have you ever suffered frost bite? Not pleasant.
George
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 26 Jun 2005 21:53 GMT >>Cryonics? (You didn't think I'd get that did you.) << Of course you're going to get cryonics. On the net, I'm Doctor Cryonics and if you googled me and didn't get that, you'd be blind.
The reason I didn't mention that, is it's not what we do. Most of our research is not cryonics, and the guys who actually do cryonics are in anyother state. Of course there's overlap.
We have a couple of dogs who survived cardiac fibrillation/arrest with circulatory arrest and no blood pressure, at normal body temp, for over 15 minutes. Dead on the table for 15 minutes. Yeah, that's a long time to be clinically dead especially with no CPR. We've had them for about 8 years. They don't have ANY brain damage that we can detect. As I say, we're researching resuscitation.
Cryonics is another matter. You go into liquid nitrogen, the damage that happens isn't slight by any standards. The only thing you can say about it is that it beats cremation or burial.
SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 26 Jun 2005 21:59 GMT >>I think you'd have to do a lot of cat karma to make up for killing dogs so wealthy wackos could be frozen until some time in the future when they're rescusitated with just, er...slight brain and other organ damage. <<
COMMENT:
I might also add that the natural customers of a resuscitation technique that can get you back after 15 mintues on the floor in cardiac arrest, would be people in cardiac arrest, and their families. Alas, that's the world's worst business model. Your only client group consists of people who only need you for 15 minutes, once in their lives (on average) and are unconcious during THAT time. Contrast that with HIV infected patients who know they're dying for 10+ years, and you'll see why resuscitation medicine takes it in the shorts.
There's also the FDA. Try getting anybody to sign a research consent form when you've got a couple of minutes after 911 is called, and the actual research patient isn't even clinically alive. You'd think that would make it easy, but the FDA knows how to make anything you like into a $100 dollar problem.
SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 26 Jun 2005 22:10 GMT >>but the FDA knows how to make anything you like into a $100 dollar problem<<
Sorry, $100 MILLION dollar problem.
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