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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2005AHA on margarine
I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site recommends: "Use margarine as a substitute for butter...". even if "In clinical studies, trans fatty acids or hydrogenated fats tend to raise total blood cholesterol levels and LDL ("bad") cholesterol and lower HDL ("good") cholesterol when used instead of cis fatty acids or natural oils. These changes may increase the risk of heart disease." Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? Here is the complete AHA recommendation I am referring to. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4776 ========= Trans Fatty Acids, Butter and Margarine Is butter better than margarine? Studies on the potential cholesterol-raising effects of trans fatty acids have raised public concern about using margarine and whether other options, such as using butter (despite its high level of saturated fat and cholesterol), might be better choices. Some stick margarines contribute more trans fatty acids than unhydrogenated (HI'dro-jen-a-tid or hi-DROJ'en-a-tid) oils or other fats. While studies have shown that using margarine can lower LDL ("bad") cholesterol when compared with butter, trans fatty acids can raise LDL and lower HLD ("good") cholesterol. AHA Recommendation Butter is rich in both saturated fat and cholesterol, so it's potentially highly atherogenic (ATH'er-o-JEN'ik). That means it contributes to the build up of cholesterol and other substances in artery walls. Such plaque deposits increase the risk of heart attack and stroke. Most margarine is made from vegetable fat and provides no dietary cholesterol. The more liquid the margarine (in tub or liquid form), the less hydrogenated it is and the less trans fatty acids it contains. On the basis of current data, we recommend that consumers follow these tips: * Use naturally occurring, unhydrogenated oil such as canola or olive oil when possible. * Look for processed foods made with unhydrogenated oil rather than hydrogenated oil or saturated fat. * Use margarine as a substitute for butter, and choose soft (liquid or tub) margarines over harder, stick forms. Use margarine with no more than 2 grams of saturated fat per tablespoon and with liquid vegetable oil as the first ingredient. The American Heart Association's Nutrition Committee strongly advises that healthy Americans over age 2 limit their intake of saturated fat and trans fat to less than 10 percent of total calories. Healthy people should adjust their total fat intake to match their energy expenditure so they don't gain weight. To lose weight, it's helpful to limit total fat to no more than 30 percent of calories. Minimize trans fat intake. If you limit your daily intake of fats and oils to 5-8 teaspoons, you aren't likely to get an excess of trans fatty acids. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is requiring that food manufacturers list trans fat on food labels so it will be easier for consumers to avoid trans fats. Manufacturers have until January 1, 2006 to comply. What are fatty acids? Fats and oils are mixtures of fatty acids. Each fat or oil is designated "saturated," "monounsaturated" or "polyunsaturated," depending on what type of fatty acid predominates. * Saturated fatty acids have all the hydrogen the carbon atoms can hold. Saturated fats are usually solid at room temperature, and they're more stable -- that is, they don't combine readily with oxygen and turn rancid. Saturated fatty acids raise blood cholesterol, which raises the risk of coronary heart disease and stroke. * Monounsaturated fatty acids have only one unsaturated bond. Monounsaturated oils are liquid at room temperature but start to solidify at refrigerator temperatures. For example, salad dressing containing olive oil turns cloudy when refrigerated but is clear at room temperature. Monounsaturated fatty acids seem to lower blood cholesterol when substituted for saturated fats. * Polyunsaturated fatty acids have more than one unsaturated bond. Polyunsaturated oils, which contain mostly polyunsaturated fatty acids, are liquid at room temperature and in the refrigerator. They easily combine with oxygen in the air to become rancid. Polyunsaturated fatty acids help lower total blood cholesterol when substituted for saturated fats. In addition, dietary cholesterol found in animal fats also raises total blood cholesterol and LDL ("bad") cholesterol. What are trans fatty acids and where do they come from? A fatty acid molecule consists of a chain of carbon atoms in carbon-carbon double bonds with hydrogen atoms "attached." In nature most unsaturated fatty acids are cis fatty acids. This means that the hydrogen atoms are on the same side of the double carbon bond. In trans fatty acids the two hydrogen atoms are on opposite sides of the double bond. Trans double bonds can occur in nature as the result of fermentation in grazing animals. People eat them in the form of meat and dairy products. Trans double bonds are also formed during the hydrogenation (hi"dro-jen-A'shun or hi-DROJ'en-a"shun) of either vegetable or fish oils. French fries, donuts, cookies, chips and other snack foods are high in trans fatty acids. In fact, nearly all fried or baked goods have some trans fats. How does hydrogenation create trans fatty acids? To help foods stay fresh on the shelf or to get a solid fat product, such as margarine, food manufacturers hydrogenate polyunsaturated oils. Hydrogenate means to add hydrogen. How are trans fatty acids harmful? In clinical studies, trans fatty acids or hydrogenated fats tend to raise total blood cholesterol levels and LDL ("bad") cholesterol and lower HDL ("good") cholesterol when used instead of cis fatty acids or natural oils. These changes may increase the risk of heart disease. It's not clear if trans fats that occur naturally have the same effect on cholesterol and heart disease as those produced by hydrogenating vegetable oils. ====== Gee and their information was just updated in 1958 too. > I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site > recommends: [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > > ====== On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:33:39 -0400, Pizza Girl wrote in <news:1118359771.1d3124a01a1af29bb01003a66bebefa6@teranews> on sci.med.nutrition : > Gee and their information was just updated in 1958 too. LOL :)  SignatureEnrico C Trans fats are evil and interfere with the body's utilization and processing of fatty acids. This can lead to heart disease(due to the body's 'healing' response of inflamed arterial walls), CVA's, r. arthritis, as well as cancer. In fact, most disease states, as well as premature aging states, can be linked directly to the consumption of fatty acids. Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think that trans fats occur in nature. Trans fats are man made - no natural occurring substance or food will contain these. Trans fats return big dollars to the medical and pharmaceutical companies. Trans fats should be avoided like the monkey plague. >>Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think that trans fats occur in nature. Trans fats are man made - no natural occurring substance or food will contain these. << COMMENT: You don't know what you're talking about. Try again. There are a number of bacteria that make trans-fats, including bacteria in cow rumens, which results in appreciable trans-fat concentrations in all dairy fat. SBH >You don't know what you're talking about. Try again. There are a number >of bacteria that make trans-fats, including bacteria in cow rumens, >which results in appreciable trans-fat concentrations in all dairy fat. CLA possibly the most important. As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol inside or outside your body. Butter is one of the best things you can eat. I've been going through a stick every 3 days for a few years now, just had an MRA done, and no signs of atherosclerosis (at age 40, male). I also eat plenty of coconut oil, which is very high in saturated fatty acids (92%), as well as whole dairy and dark chocolate. It's only the products that produce a lot of free radical activity (lipid peoxidation) that one should avoid. Boiled but not cooked while exposed to air: eggs, shellfish, and small amounts of meat (if you really want it). Most "processed food" these days are high in double bonded fatty acids and low antioxidants, so that's why they're "bad," not because of some supposed inability to utilize "trans fatty acids." The body has to deal with all kinds of lipids, and has no problems doing so. Find me a scientific paper which demonstrates exactly how the body, on a cellular/molecular level, has difficulty digesting and using any fatty acid, and then you can make such statements. Only when you eat too many fatty acids with double bond, too much iron, too little antioxidants, etc., is there a problem. Most of the products that contain what is being called "trans fats" are high in double bonded fatty acids and low in antioxidants (if there are any at all). > As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when > cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is > problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded > fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol > inside or outside your body. 1) Fatty acids with double bonds can NOT oxidize cholesterol inside or outside the body- if you knew any basic chemistry you'd see for yourself that this is nonsense. This would be like saying "hydrogen kills!" and not mentioning "when you use it to build a h-bomb". 2) Since margarine does not contain ANY cholesterol you would have to love it.. no cholesterol- no oxidized cholesterol. And margarine has plenty of antioxidants in it.. just look at the labels. > Butter is one of the best things you can > eat. I've been going through a stick every 3 days for a few years now, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that contain what is being called "trans fats" are high in double > bonded fatty acids and low in antioxidants (if there are any at all). I've seen the scientific papers that say otherwise. If you want to cite a paper that demonstrates that it is impossible for in vivo lipid peoxidation to include cholesterol molecules, then go ahead and cite it. Point 2: Again, there is ample scientific evidence demonstrating that unsaturated fatty acids can oxidize cholesterol in your body, so as long as there is cholesterol in your body, which there always will be (assuming you are alive) it can happen. It is widely known that antioxidants used in packaging aren't necessarily going to help inside your body. I took a look at one leading brand. It had potassium sorbate and the acetate form of alpha vitamin E. It's been demonstrated that too much of this one form of E may not do anything beneficial, but can be harmful (due to interference with other forms of E). And if you know of any evidence for potassium sorbate inhibiting lipid peroxidation in vivo, then AGAIN you must cite it or be quite. Below, I cite an abstract that mentions the connection that you deny, but more importantly, also shows that higher ingestion of fish oil is not healthy, in and of itself. It just interferes with AA metabolization, which gives some temporary relief, but is a killer in the long run, as anyone who studied the Eskimos living on such diets could tell you. The abstract also confirms my point about the gamma form of vitamin E. In your beloved margarine, they use the alpha form, which may prevent some lipid peroxidation, but seems to enhance free radical damage that leads to heart disease. So eat up that margarine. Perhaps then you'll only be around to generate there obnoxious posts for a short time. Scand J Clin Lab Invest. 2002;62(4):307-14. Long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids may account for higher low-density lipoprotein oxidation susceptibility in Lithuanian compared to Swedish men. Zieden B, Kaminskas A, Kristenson M, Olsson AG, Kucinskiene Z. Clinical Research Center and Department of Medicine and Care, Faculty of Health Sciences, Linkoping, Sweden. Bo.Zieden@kfc.liu.se OBJECTIVES: Mortality in coronary heart disease among middle-aged men is four times higher in Lithuania than in Sweden. Traditional risk factors cannot account for this difference. We earlier reported that low-density lipoprotein (LDL) in Lithuanian men showed a lower resistance to oxidation, measured as LDL lag time during copper oxidation, than that in Swedish men. Serum concentrations of several fat-soluble antioxidant vitamins were lower among Lithuanian men. The aim of this study was to investigate whether differences in LDL fatty acid composition could account for the difference in LDL oxidation susceptibility between men in the two countries. METHODS: This cross-sectional study included randomly selected healthy 50-year-old men from Vilnius, Lithuania (n=50) and Linkoping, Sweden (n=50). Main outcome measures were fatty acids in LDL, phospholipid (PL) and cholesterol ester (CE) fractions of LDL and LDL oxidation susceptibility. RESULTS: The mean proportions of PL 20:5n3 (eicosapentaenoic acid, EPA) were higher in Vilnius men (2.09 +/- 1.05 vs. 1.53 +/- 0.58%, p= 0.004). LDL lag time was shorter in Vilnius men, mean +/- SD (75.4 +/- 13.6 vs. 89.5 +/- 13.1 mins, p<0.0001) than in Linkoping men. Mean serum gamma-tocopherol was lower in Vilnius men (0.07 +/- 0.05 vs. 0.12 +/- 0.04 microg/mmol, p<0.0001) but alpha-tocopherol did not differ. In a multiple regression analysis controlled for city, high PL-EPA, low alpha-tocopherol, and high plasma triglycerides significantly contributed to a short LDL lag time, r2=0.53. CONCLUSIONS: Fat quality, i.e. poly unsaturated fatty acids, especially LDL-EPA, plasma triglycerides and antioxidative vitamins may partly account for the increased LDL oxidation susceptibility found in Vilnius men compared with Linkoping men. I've made the point recently that if one wants to make claims against "trans fat," then tell us exactly what is in this substance - in terms of the molecular structure of the various components. Are we talking about a high nickels content? How many double bonds per fatty acid? Etc. In theory, one can cook up a brew that is not especially unhealthy, but it should be tested extensively before being sold to people, or to animals that people are going to eat at some point. Basically, the less double bonds in a product that contains a lot of fatty acids, the better, because there won't be much lipid peroxidation possible, but of course there are other ingredients, some of which might be very unhealthy, regardless of the number of double bonds, iron being the most common thing. :: [...] :: Below, I cite an abstract that mentions the connection that you deny, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] :: compared to Swedish men. :: [...] In many respects the Lithuanian and Swedish diets are not comparable. Lithuania is poor country with low intake of vegetables and fruits. On the contrary Sweden is a rich country with a good food quality and a higher intake of vegetables and fruits. Also the variety is greater in Sweden. SignatureJuhana If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not present, I would agree with you, but there's really no other explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical biochemistry. In poor areas in the West, grain products, often made with PUFAs replace higher fruit and veg. intake, but the key is free radical damage, which will be much greater even if both consume the same amount of PUFAs, because fruit and veg. can have powerful antioxidants, which you won't get with bread, cookies, etc. with few exceptions (like chocoloate chip cookies made with dark chocolate, perhaps, which you won't find in very poor areas). Denham Harman, in the 1970s, proposed that free radical damage was the key to "chronic disease" or "aging," and the evidence is now so overwhelming that even doctors who represent the AHA are making the claim (about heart disease). But for some reason, a number of people who like to post on this NG seem to enjoy doubting it. It's like the religious nuts who doubt that evolution is possible, even though cancer is basically an evolutionary process, in which cells of the body adapt to harsh conditions and become, for all intents and purposes, a new species (see Duesberg's work on aneuploidy, for example). The DNA in cancer cells is tightly wound, and more resistant to free radical damage. This is not very complicated, and it's all in the scientific literature. I'm not saying anything original, nor even new. I wish I were, because then I could claim to be a nutritional version of Einstein. All of the claims you hear about fiber, cholesterol, phyotnutritents, eating more fruit and vegetables, green tea, etc., concerns stopping particular kinds of free radical damage from causing "disease." It is the root cause, and all the other things you hear about don't need to be "cured" with expensive drugs (with a few, very rare, exceptions) - if you address the root cause. > If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not > present, I would agree with you, So you admit that you are happy to form opinions without evidence. > but there's really no other > explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical > biochemistry. Which you don't seem to understand. > Denham Harman, in the 1970s, proposed that free radical damage was the > key to "chronic disease" or "aging," and the evidence is now so > overwhelming that even doctors who represent the AHA are making the > claim (about heart disease). But for some reason, a number of people > who like to post on this NG seem to enjoy doubting it. You're imagining it. Many people challenge your ill-conceived notions and poor understanding of biochemistry, physiology and nutrition, though - perhaps that's what you're thinking of. > It's like the > religious nuts who doubt that evolution is possible, even though cancer > is basically an evolutionary process, in which cells of the body adapt > to harsh conditions and become, for all intents and purposes, a new > species Oh boy, montygram's got a new crazy theory. >(see Duesberg's work on aneuploidy, for example). The DNA in > cancer cells is tightly wound, and more resistant to free radical > damage. Care to explain that? MattLB >If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not >present, I would agree with you, but there's really no other >explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical >biochemistry. In poor areas in the West, grain products, often made >with PUFAs replace higher fruit and veg. intake, but the key is free Lithuania and other east-european countries having been under control of Soviet and perused for careless production of dangerous chemicals, has an extremely high degree of pollunation with chemicals leading to tremendously increased oxidative stresses in living animals, btw. humans. No need for some PUFA explanations there. Every pollutant ever thinkable would be present in those areas. > I've seen the scientific papers that say otherwise. If you want to > cite a paper that demonstrates that it is impossible for in vivo lipid > peoxidation to include cholesterol molecules, your comment was and we will stick to that: "Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol inside or outside your body." Peroxides are not fatty acids (this would be similar to saying: alcohol is the same as acetic acid) and have very different chemical properties , so if you are talking about peroxides then say "peroxides" or even "oxidized fatty acids". >then go ahead and cite it. common selnse tells us that prooving something does NOT exist is not possible, hence this comment is utterly redundant. > Point 2: Again, there is ample scientific evidence demonstrating that > unsaturated fatty acids can oxidize cholesterol in your body, > so as long as there is cholesterol in your body, which there always will > be > (assuming you are alive) it can happen. > It is widely known that antioxidants used in packaging aren't necessarily > going to help inside > your body. They don't have to. As long as the PUFA are not oxidized in the food the antioxidants did their job well. > I took a look at one leading brand. Is this supposed to be a representative information- how many brands are there? > It had potassium > sorbate and the acetate form of alpha vitamin E. It's been > demonstrated that too much of this one form of E may not do anything > beneficial but can be harmful (due to interference with other forms of > E). we are talking of an in vitro antioxidative effect. in vivo: how big are the intakes of alpha-tocopherol from margerine in a day.. i bet those don't even come close to the levels you are talking about. >And if you know of any evidence for potassium sorbate inhibiting > lipid peroxidation in vivo, then AGAIN you must cite it or be quite. 1) its spelled "quiet". 2) potassium sorbate is a fungistatic, not an antioxidans. 3) I didn't mention potassium sorbate with a single word so why should I cite anything about it? > Below, I cite an abstract that mentions the connection that you deny, I don't deny a "connection", I deny a chemical reaction that you postulated. > but more importantly, also shows that higher ingestion of fish oil is > not healthy, in and of itself. It just interferes with AA > metabolization, which gives some temporary relief, but is a killer in > the long run, read the review i posted below. >as anyone who studied the Eskimos living on such diets you keep on bringing the eskimos but clearly have not yet answered the question: can people living in these extreme environments with practically NO vegetable intake be compared to a western industrialized civilisation? > could tell you. The abstract also confirms my point about the gamma > form of vitamin E. > In your beloved margarine, they use the alpha form, > which may prevent some lipid peroxidation, but seems to enhance free > radical damage that leads to heart disease. you probably should decide if it a) prevents lipid peroxidation or b) enhances free radical damage - they have the same mechanism. > So eat up that margarine. > Perhaps then you'll only be around to generate there obnoxious posts [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > partly account for the increased LDL oxidation susceptibility found in > Vilnius men compared with Linkoping men. You would have a point if both of these groups would have had similar tocopherol levels and would live under similar circumstances. Neither is the case. Lithuania is a very poor, sweden a very rich country - just compare the who statistics. Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2004 Nov;6(6):447-52. REVIEW Are omega-3 fatty acids the most important nutritional modulators of coronary heart disease risk? Harris WS. With each passing year, the evidence linking an increased risk for coronary heart disease (CHD) death with a chronic dietary deficiency in long-chain omega-3 (n-3) fatty acids (FAs) grows stronger. Recently, a federally mandated evidence-based review in the United States concluded that n-3 FAs, especially eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), have clear cardioprotective effects, and national and international expert panels and health organizations have begun to call for increased EPA and DHA intakes. Consumption of between 450 and 1000 mg/d is recommended for those without and with known CHD, respectively. Based on animal and isolated cell studies, these FAs were presumed to have antiarrhythmic effects. The first direct evidence for this in humans was recently published, as were new data linking low n-3 FA intakes with risk for developing atrial fibrillation. The strength of the n-3 story has now led to a proposal that blood levels of EPA plus DHA be considered a new, modifiable, and clinically relevant risk factor for death from CHD. > I've made the point recently that if one wants to make claims against > "trans fat," then tell us exactly what is in this substance - in terms > of the molecular structure of the various components. Are we talking > about a high nickels content? How many double bonds per fatty acid? > Etc. Read properly, then type. I didn't mention trans fats nor did I make claims against trans fats. > In theory, one can cook up a brew that is not especially unhealthy, but > it should be tested extensively before being sold to people, or to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > unhealthy, regardless of the number of double bonds, iron being the > most common thing. : As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when : cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is : problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded : fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol That's incorrect. Cholesterol is cholesterol. Cholesterol in the modern diet is from animal products, or made intrinsically. I think the trick is to _get off the bad fats_ -- as much as possible. Dean Ornish found that he could reverse heart disease when he had people quit animal products. The advocating of the beef, pork and dairy industry by dieticians only occurs b/c they sell themselves [and us] out. Consider this: "Why do North Americans take in so much Dairy product, but have the world's highest rate of osteoporosis?" Why? Because Dairy is so laden with protein that it blocks Calcium uptake. In fact, TOOMUCH protein leaches the Calcium FROM the bones. "Experts" who are paid enuf will lie about anything. Check out the __"Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine"__ website. www.pcrm.org Emma :) >>Consider this: "Why do North Americans take in so much Dairy product, but have the world's highest rate of osteoporosis?" << COMMENT: Answer: because North Americans have the highest per capita number of DEXA bone density scanners. If you don't look for a disease, you may well not find it. Next question? >>Why? Because Dairy is so laden with protein that it blocks Calcium uptake. In fact, TOOMUCH protein leaches the Calcium FROM the bones. << COMMENT: This is an urban myth, fostered by comparing one countrie's osteoporosis rate to that of another, which is apples vs. oranges. There are numeous studies of milk consumption vs. osteoporosis WITHIN many countries (which control for all those between country variables, like genetics and number of dexa scanners), and they generally find that more milk drunk, the better. >>Experts" who are paid enuf will lie about anything. Check out the __"Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine"__ website.<< COMMENT Indeed. But remember that those guys get paid by special interests, too, and would lose major donor funding if they ever said anything positive about any animal-derived food. If they found out that farm raised meat was bad for people, but (horrors) that an animal product like milk was actually good for them, what would they DO? They'd have a conflict between their philsophy and science, is what. Which do you suppose would win? If you want to find out, go the PCRM website and search on "fish". You'll get article after article on the toxins in fish. It is explained that fish aren't good for you. No, no, no. Never never never. http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/essential_fatty_acids.html They do inally admit that a supplement of DHA (which cannot be gotten from land plants) is good for pregant women, but they ONLY made this recommendation after a microalgae source of DHA came on the market very recently. Before that, PCRM pretended that everyone can make all the DHA they need from the ALA in land plants. In other words, before there was a vegetarian source of DHA, pregant and nursing women didn't need it. But as soon as one became available, suddently they do. The whack-jobs at PCRM are PETA with an MD face. They do not care about reality. All they care about is their animal rights agenda. You the patient, indeed you, the human, come second. SBH > Trans fats are evil now thats some scientific material to start with (did you read the sci.med.nutrition up there?).. >and interfere with the body's utilization and > processing of fatty acids. This can lead to heart disease(due to the > body's 'healing' response of inflamed arterial walls), CVA's, r. > arthritis, >as well as cancer. please to post any citation prooving that trans fats cause cancer in humans. > In fact, most disease states, as well as > premature aging states, can be linked directly to the consumption of > fatty acids. > Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think > that trans fats occur in nature. >Trans fats are man made - no natural > occurring substance or food will contain these. Trans fats return big > dollars to the medical and pharmaceutical companies. you really don't know what you are talking about. > Trans fats should be avoided like the monkey plague. machine_nine@yahoo.com wrote in part: >Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think >that trans fats occur in nature. Absolutely amazing! But you, Dr. machine_nine, know better, we presume. What kind of newsgroup is this? I'm just visiting. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu :: I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web :: site recommends: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] :: Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most :: cases)? I guess they they want to give recommendation that can be easily implemented by people. Personally I don't use butter nor margarine. :: Here is the complete AHA recommendation I am referring to. :: :: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4776 There are also margarines which have not been hydrogenated. This has been the situation is many European countries for over ten years, but the US food industry has not been willing to make necessary changes. That is the reason for hydrogenated margarines in the US markets. SignatureJuhana > I guess they they want to give recommendation that can be easily implemented > by people. Likely. Why don't they even mention olive oil though? > Personally I don't use butter nor margarine. So you don't follow AHA recommendations! ;) SignatureEnrico C :: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:28:52 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in :: <news:3gsq93Fao0ejU1@individual.net> on sci.med.nutrition : [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: Likely. :: Why don't they even mention olive oil though? Actually I think that rape seed oil would be the best choice for salads and with bread, but olive oil is better for cooking. Just have a look at the Lyon Heart Study and the importance of alpha-linolenic acid. ::: Personally I don't use butter nor margarine. :: :: So you don't follow AHA recommendations! ;) Should I? ;-) SignatureJuhana On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:42:28 +0200 in sci.med.nutrition, Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote, >Why don't they even mention olive oil though? Gee, why don't they, considering that the first bullet point under their recommendations is: >> * Use naturally occurring, unhydrogenated oil such as >> canola or olive oil when possible. > On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:42:28 +0200 in sci.med.nutrition, Enrico C > <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> * Use naturally occurring, unhydrogenated oil such as >>> canola or olive oil when possible. You are right, they mention it, so I was wrong in writing that they "don't mention" it. My point, though, is that they just recommend olive oil as a good oil, not as a possible substitute for butter. They still say: | Use margarine as a substitute for butter, The bottom line I read in AHA recommendations is: - if you are looking for some salad dressing, then use canola or olive oil; - instead of your usual butter, use margarine. AHA *doesn't* recommend olive oil (or canola) instead of butter. Compare with Harvard recommendations (Harvard School of Public Health web site): "Butter (Use Sparingly):" [...] "switching from butter to olive oil." [can improve cholesterol levels] [...] "Good sources of healthy unsaturated fats include olive, canola, soy, corn, sunflower, peanut, and other vegetable oils, as well as fatty fish such as salmon. These healthy fats not only improve cholesterol levels (when eaten in place of highly processed carbohydrates) but can also protect the heart from sudden and potentially deadly rhythm problems.(3)" http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramids.html Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: >AHA *doesn't* recommend olive oil (or canola) instead of butter. They seem to do that at the start, and then lose it. The topic on the web page is "Trans Fatty Acids, Butter and Margarine." The sub-heading is "Is butter better than margarine?" The first recommendation in that context is: "Use naturally occurring, unhydrogenated oil such as canola or olive oil when possible." Unfortunately, they then muddy it up by saying in the second bullet: "Look for processed foods made with unhydrogenated oil rather than hydrogenated oil or saturated fat." That has nothing to do with choosing butter or margarine, really. So I'll agree that they have goofed it up. The first bullet alone would do the whole job, anyway. Why look for processed foods at all if you are worried about heart disease? And why choose butter or margarine, ever, when anyone can find olive oil? I agree the AHA has penned something of a mess. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >"Good sources of healthy unsaturated fats include olive, canola, soy, corn, >sunflower, peanut, and other vegetable oils, as well as fatty fish such as >salmon. These healthy fats not only improve cholesterol levels (when eaten >in place of highly processed carbohydrates) but can also protect the heart >from sudden and potentially deadly rhythm problems.(3)" So they didn¨t care about linoleic acid may increase LDL and decrease HDL, but sum LDL and HDL decreases slightly?? While omega-3 acids do increase HDL and lowering LDL and totally decrease sum Some saturated fats in fact also increase HDL and decrease LDL :-) (But increase total slightly) soy, corn, sunflower, peanut and other vegetable oils are very high in omega-6, except rape seed oil (ratio 2) and olive oil (ratio btw. 2 and 5), while the others are mostly above 20, depending on refining and type of seed. Soy seed producers now tries to make the ratio as high as possibly in order to increase shelf life of soy oil not sold in shops. Some soy oils has ratio of n-6 : n-3 above 100 :-( Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: >> I guess they they want to give recommendation that can be easily implemented >> by people. > >Likely. >Why don't they even mention olive oil though? They do. Olive oil and canola are to be used if possible, according to the site in question. Did you read it before commenting on it? >> Personally I don't use butter nor margarine. > >So you don't follow AHA recommendations! ;) She does. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They do. Olive oil and canola are to be used if possible, > according to the site in question. See my answer to David Harmon. SignatureEnrico C >> I guess they they want to give recommendation that can be easily implemented >> by people. > > Likely. > Why don't they even mention olive oil though? I meant: why don't they mention olive oil as a replacement for butter, in most cases?, (as the Harvard School of Public Health clearly does, and as is customary in the Mediterranean region). Actually, AHA recommendations do mention olive oil in their web page (so my former statement "Why don't they even mention olive oil?" was formally incorrect). The point is they don't expressly mention olive oil as a replacement for butter. They still say "Use margarine" as the recommended alternative to butter. SignatureEnrico C >:: I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web >:: site recommends: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > industry has not been willing to make necessary changes. That is the reason > for hydrogenated margarines in the US markets. Some margarines in Italy now write "No hydrogenated fats" on the label. Both (spreadable) tubs and (hard) sticks. So, they shouldn't contain any trans fats, right? Anyway, I still have some doubts about those higly processed fats, for the reasons discussed on this newsgroup [nickel and other metals used in processing, to say one]. But what worries me most are the "hidden" shortenings in commercial foods, even in some "healthy looking" breakfast cereals. We consumers don't really know much about that partially hydrogenated stuff, do we? SignatureEnrico C > I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site > recommends: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ("good") cholesterol when used instead of cis fatty acids or natural oils. > These changes may increase the risk of heart disease." you you aware that butter contains trans fats as well? > Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? because olive oil and honey doesn't go so well on your breakfast bread. > Here is the complete AHA recommendation I am referring to. > [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > > ====== >> Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? > > because olive oil and honey doesn't go so well on your breakfast bread. I know. :) That's why I added "in most cases". I was just thinking of that. I doubt spreads taste as good as butter though. On bread, I prefer a smaller amount of the real thing, butter. Then, I don't eat bread and butter everyday. With all other foods, I use uncooked olive oil. What strikes me is that AHA doesn't even mention olive oil. And they don't mention nichel in margarines. SignatureEnrico C ================================== Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: >>> Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >And they don't mention nichel in margarines. Unbelievable commentary. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu [...snip...] >>And they don't mention nichel in margarines. > > Unbelievable commentary. Don't industries use nickel or other metals in fat hydrogenation? SignatureEnrico C ================================== :: "Enrico C" <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag :: news:14ugr3cfpmnpo$.dlg@news.lillathedog.net... ::: Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most ::: cases)? ::: :: because olive oil and honey doesn't go so well on your breakfast :: bread. Actually it is a cultural thing - what you get used to. In most of the Mediterranean countries people manages amazingly well even without margarine or butter. They use mostly olive oil with bread. SignatureJuhana >you you aware that butter contains trans fats as well? Are literature agreeing about CLA is very unhealthful (the transfat in butter) >>you you aware that butter contains trans fats as well? > > Are literature agreeing about CLA is very unhealthful (the transfat in > butter) is this a question whether CLA is a problem? your sentence is hard to interpret but in any case: cla is not the only trans fat in butter. > I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site > recommends: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? Simple answer to your simple and very valid question. Follow the money. The AHA isn't entirely up front on their website about who their corporate sponsors are but if you look at their annual report at: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=606 you will find a list of their donors. Here are the $1,000,000 and above donors: -------- $1,000,000 and above ACH Food Company - Tennessee * Archer Daniels Midland Company - Illinois * Astra Zeneca - Delaware * Averitt Express Charities - Tennessee * Bayer Corporation - New Jersey * BlueCross of California - California* Bristol-Myers Squibb Company - New Jersey * Henrietta B. and Frederick H. Bugher Foundation - New York * Clarkson Potter/Publishers, a division of Random House, Inc. - New York Federated Department Stores (Macy's) - Ohio * Genentech, Inc. - California* GlaxoSmithKline, - Pennsylvania * Guidant Foundation - Indiana * Harriett and Robert Heilbrunn - New York * J. Willard and Alice S. Marriott Foundation - Washington, DC * Merck & Company, Inc. - Pennsylvania * Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corp. - New Jersey * Esther B. O'Keeffe Foundation - Florida * PacifiCare Foundation - California * Pfizer Inc. - New York * Sanofi-Synthelabo - New York * Schering-Plough Corporation - New Jersey * Strouds - California * Subway Advertising Trust Fund - Connecticut * Takeda Pharmaceuticals - Illinois * Walgreen Co. - Illinois Women's Board of the Greater Washington Area - Washington, DC * $500,000 - 999,999 Anonymous - New Jersey * California Walnut Commission - California The Irene D. Collia Trust in the New York Community Trust * ConAgra - Nebraska * Cordis Corporation * Guidant Corporation - Indiana * Johnson & Johnson - New Jersey * F. M. Kirby Foundation - New Jersey * Kos Pharmaceuticals, Inc. - Florida * Mercedes Benz-USA LLC - New Jersey Omron Healthcare, Inc. - Illinois * The E. M. Pearson Foundation - Minnesota* Quantum Foundation - Florida * Reebok - Massachusetts Ross Stores, Inc. - California Safeway Stores, Inc. - California United Way of San Antonio & Bexar County - Texas * Mr. and Mrs. E. Carlton Wilton Jr. - Virginia * ------- Here is a site run by the National Association of Margarine Manufacturers: http://www.margarine.org/healthyresources.html ConAgra is a major margarine producer and a million-dollar-a-year-plus sponsor of the AHA. ConAgra owns the Parkay brand of margarine. ------- Johnson & Johnson and Unilever have partnered in the margarine business. Johnson & Johnson is a million-dollar-a-year-plus sponsor of the AHA. http://www.retailmerchandising.net/candy/SpecialSection/margarine.htm ------- Archer Daniels Midland is a major sponsor of the AHA and is a major supplier of various crap that is added to margarine and produces margarine itself They are also a million-dollar-a-year-plus sponsor of the AHA. http://www.gredf.org/news/news7k.html ADM ANNOUNCES CONSTRUCTION OF NEW MARGARINE FACILITY December 16, 2002 Archer Daniels Midland Company announced today that it will construct a new margarine and interesterification plant in Quincy, Illinois to produce margarine products for institutional and food service customers. The 106,000 square foot facility will be located adjacent to the existing ADM refinery and packaging plant. Construction is scheduled to be completed by the summer of 2004. This facility will continue ADM's vertical integration into value-added products to better serve its ever-growing global packaged and specialty oil customers. Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) is a world leader in agricultural processing. The Company is one of the world's largest processors of soybeans, corn, wheat and cocoa. ADM is also a leader in soy meal and oil, ethanol, high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and flour. In addition, ADM is building a position in such value-added products as specialty food ingredients, bioproducts and nutraceuticals (such as Vitamin E and sterols). Headquartered in Decatur, Illinois, ADM has over 24,000 employees, more than 260 processing plants and net sales for the fiscal year ended June 30, 2002 of $22.6 billion. Additional information can be found on ADM's Web site at http://www.admworld.com. -------- ACH Food Company is a supplier of oils and other products including crap that is added to margarine: http://www.achfood.com/commercial_ingredients.html "The breadth of our product line is unmatched in the industry. It includes the full spectrum of shortenings and oils for bakery, snacks, dressings, sauces, margarines, coatings, non-dairy substitutes, nutritional oil blends, frying and par-frying applications and an extensive line of specialty powders ranging from cheese powders and sweeteners to flavor enhancers" They are also a million-dollar-a-year-plus sponsor of the AHA ------- And note that the American Stroke Association is A Division of the American Heart Association. --------- American Heart Association 1-888-AHA-USA1 www.americanheart.org American Stroke Association A Division of the American Heart Association 1-888-4-STROKE (1-888-478-7653) For more information on life after stroke, ask for the stroke family "Warmline" www.StrokeAssociation.org ------------- This is just scratching the surface. Barely a few minutes of simple googling. I can't imagine what we would find if we had serious and capable investigators dig into the real dirt behind this organization (the AHA). TC > > I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site > > recommends: [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] > > TC Corrections: Johnson & Johnson and Unilever are not partnering but are competing by selling similar margarines that contain something that is supposed to reduce cholesterol more than regular margarines. ConAgra and Johnson & Johnson have sponsored the AHA only to the tune of something below $999,999 and above $500,000 a year and not million-dollars-a-year-plus as I stated above. TC > > > I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site > > > recommends: [quoted text clipped - 187 lines] > > TC One more correction. It is not million dollars per year, just more than one millin dollars lifetime. But they do not specify how much more than 1 million dollars they donated. For all we know it could be in the tens of millions or possibly more. TC "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: >> I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association web site >> recommends: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Simple answer to your simple and very valid question. Follow the money. A simpler answer is that the question contains a false premise. Did ANYONE read the AHA statement?! <snip> >This is just scratching the surface. Barely a few minutes of simple >googling. I can't imagine what we would find if we had serious and >capable investigators dig into the real dirt behind this organization >(the AHA). "serious and capable investigators? This clearly would leave you and most others here out. Can you even read? -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu Are you defending the AHA and their corporate sponsors? If so, why? Do you not find that information somewhat damning for the AHA? TC > "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu And how is it a false premise? The premise is that the AHA recommends margarine over butter. The AHA's recomendation: - Use margarine as a substitute for butter, and choose soft (liquid or tub) margarines over harder, stick forms. Use margarine with no more than 2 grams of saturated fat per tablespoon and with liquid vegetable oil as the first ingredient. Can't be any clearer than that. TC :: Jim Chinnis wrote: ::: "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: :::: Enrico C wrote: ::::: I don't understand why on earth the American Heart Association ::::: web site recommends: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] :: :: Can't be any clearer than that. Look at the Lyon Heart Study and the benefits of alpha-linolenic acid containing margarine (from rape seed oil). SignatureJuhana "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: >> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >TC Try reading this very post from beginning to end, very slowly. Pause on the following part: "Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)?" (Your response:) "Simple answer to your simple and very valid question. Follow the money." Now, since the AHA says, "Use naturally occurring, unhydrogenated oil such as canola or olive oil when possible," and you keep leaving out that bit, there is a false premise in the question, "Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)?" The simple answer is: THEY DO! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu [...] > "Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in > most cases)?" The simple answer is: THEY DO! Sorry Jim, they don't. SignatureEnrico C Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: >[...] >> "Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in >> most cases)?" The simple answer is: THEY DO! > >Sorry Jim, they don't. It certainly depends on how it is read. And that means they did a lousy job. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu > * Monounsaturated fatty acids have only one unsaturated bond. >Monounsaturated oils are liquid at room temperature but start to solidify >at refrigerator temperatures. For example, salad dressing containing olive >oil turns cloudy when refrigerated but is clear at room temperature. So why do rape seed oil with same amount of monounsat fat don't cloud?? That's because squalene composition (which is the solidifying stuff in olive oil) is very different. Olive oil may be very high in squalenes, an important intermediate and precursor for cholesterol, while rape seed oil is high in phytosterols. >Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? If the studies done with "olive oil" (which turned out in many places turned out to be a kind of canola oil, that is, the european variant), due to the high squalene content, I guess they would have found very little preventive effect, but since rape seed oil was mostly used, because of lack of squalene while very rich in phytosterols which are well documented as preventive against heart diseases as well of preventive of carcinogenesis, a good correlation was found, and honoured to olive oil. I look forward to someone doing a big scale, double test with olive oil and rape seed oil in preventing heart diseases and carcinogenesis. >>Why don't they just recommend olive oil instead of butter (in most cases)? > > If the studies done with "olive oil" (which turned out in many places > turned out to be a kind of canola oil, that is, the european variant), I don't know what "olive oil" they refer to. I myself only use "extra virgin olive oil", which is the real thing. That makes a difference in taste... and not just that, I gather. http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/APJCN/Vol5/Num2/52p105.htm Asia Pacific J Clin Nutr (1996) 5: 105-107 Phenolic content of olive oil is reduced in extraction and refining Analysis of phenolic content of three grades of olive and ten seed oils Colquhoun DM1 MBBS FRACP, Hicks BJ1 RN BHMS, Reed AW2 Mphil(Sc) 1. The Wesley and Greenscopes Hospitals, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; 2. Department of Primary Industries, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Three grades of olive oil and ten vegetable cooking oils were analysed for their phenolic content. It was hypothesised that as olive oil passed through the chemical extraction process, polyphenols would also be removed, thus reducing the antioxidant properties of olive oil. Other commonly used edible vegetable oils were analysed for comparative reasons. Extra virgin olive oil was found to have the greatest amount (48 mg/gram of oil) of polyphenols, when compared with other olive or vegetable oils. No polyphenols were detected in sunflower, walnut, peanut or almond oils. All other oils tested had a polyphenolic content between 2 and 10 mg/gram of oil. The results of the study confirms the above hypothesis that the phenolic content of olive oil is reduced by chemical extraction and refining. [...] ===================================================== > due to the high squalene content, I guess they would have found very > little preventive effect, but since rape seed oil was mostly used, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I look forward to someone doing a big scale, double test with olive > oil and rape seed oil in preventing heart diseases and carcinogenesis. I think it would be a good idea if they used real "extra virgin olive oil" in such a test. SignatureEnrico C >I myself only use "extra virgin olive oil", which is the real thing. That >makes a difference in taste... and not just that, I gather. Does it "freeze" when cooled down to about 2 deg C? In case it contains lot of squalenes, the key intermediate in cholesterol synthesis which is responsible why most olive oil do not decrease cholesterol in blood, but rather increase LDL in direct contrast to rape seed/canola oil that decrease cholesterol due to its content of phytosterols, more strictly brassica sterols. >>I myself only use "extra virgin olive oil", which is the real thing. That >>makes a difference in taste... and not just that, I gather. > > Does it "freeze" when cooled down to about 2 deg C? I don't know. > In case it contains lot of squalenes, the key intermediate in > cholesterol synthesis which is responsible why most olive oil do not > decrease cholesterol in blood, but rather increase LDL http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats.html [...] Unsaturated Fats--Polyunsaturated and Monounsaturated Unsaturated fats are found in products derived from plant sources, such as vegetable oils, nuts, and seeds. There are two main categories: polyunsaturated fats (which are found in high concentrations in sunflower, corn, and soybean oils) and monounsaturated fats (which are found in high concentrations in canola, peanut, and olive oils). In studies in which polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats were eaten in place of carbohydrates, these good fats decreased LDL levels and increased HDL levels. [...] > in direct > contrast to rape seed/canola oil that decrease cholesterol due to its > content of phytosterols, more strictly brassica sterols. Are there any comparisons with extra virgin olive oil ? According to this study... "Extra virgin olive oil was found to have the greatest amount (48 mg/gram of oil) of polyphenols, when compared with other olive or vegetable oils. " (no, they didn't compare it with canola oil) http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/APJCN/Vol5/Num2/52p105.htm Asia Pacific J Clin Nutr (1996) 5: 105-107 Phenolic content of olive oil is reduced in extraction and refining Analysis of phenolic content of three grades of olive and ten seed oils Colquhoun DM1 MBBS FRACP, Hicks BJ1 RN BHMS, Reed AW2 Mphil(Sc) 1. The Wesley and Greenscopes Hospitals, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; 2. Department of Primary Industries, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Three grades of olive oil and ten vegetable cooking oils were analysed for their phenolic content. It was hypothesised that as olive oil passed through the chemical extraction process, polyphenols would also be removed, thus reducing the antioxidant properties of olive oil. Other commonly used edible vegetable oils were analysed for comparative reasons. Extra virgin olive oil was found to have the greatest amount (48 mg/gram of oil) of polyphenols, when compared with other olive or vegetable oils. No polyphenols were detected in sunflower, walnut, peanut or almond oils. All other oils tested had a polyphenolic content between 2 and 10 mg/gram of oil. The results of the study confirms the above hypothesis that the phenolic content of olive oil is reduced by chemical extraction and refining. [...] |
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