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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2005

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Question About Vegatable oil / Sunflower oil in potato chips

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Deleted - 10 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT
Hi,
Im a guy in the UK who previously didnt care about what i ate, until recently when i started to get serious about nutrition.

I mainly now eat Pasta's / Rice / Chicken etc.
I used to Snack a lot but have pretty much given it up after looking at the contents in a lot of "snack" products.

But when it comes to Crisps (Potato Chips) i noticed they contained a relativly high propotion of Saturated fat (as well as Salt / Artificial ingredients etc).

as an example, from a packet of Walkers Barbecue (which has Vegitable oil as an ingreedient) crisps it says:
per 100g
525kcal, 6.5gprotein, 50gCarbs (of which sugars 2g), 33gFat (of which saturates 14g), fibre 4g, Sodium 0.7g.

To Me this seems ok, besides the Saturated Fat.

But they have a new Sub Brand called "Potato Heads", claiming 70% less Saturated fat and no artifical flavors etc. for a cheese and onion bag (contain Sunflower oil instead of vegitable), they are:
per 100g
455kcal, 9g protein, 57gCarbs (of which sugars 0.8g), 21g Fat (Saturated 2g, mono-unsatu 17g, poly-unsatu 2g), fibre 5g, Sodium 0.7g

Now, To me, This seems quite "Healthy" as a "snack", Am i right in thinking this, or is there anything anyone can see as a "risk"

I was in a supermarket the other day, and compared Vegitable oil and Sunflower oil, the Sunflower oil seemed to be "Worse" than the vegitable oil in terms of saturated fat. This has me really puzzled, as the sunflower oil seems worse, why are the more "healthy" Crisps using sunflower oil, does something happen to the oils upon cooking or something?

Sorry for such a long post, Would Really appreachiate any replies,

Thanks again
montygram - 11 Feb 2005 04:52 GMT
There's a lot more thinking you're going to want to do.  Start with
Bruce Fif'es book, Saturated fat may save your life.  There are a few
problems with it, but it's good for those who need an introduction to
the key issues, not the nonsense you hear from the talking heads on TV.
MMu - 11 Feb 2005 12:14 GMT
> There's a lot more thinking you're going to want to do.  Start with
> Bruce Fif'es book, Saturated fat may save your life.  There are a few
> problems with it, but it's good for those who need an introduction to
> the key issues, not the nonsense you hear from the talking heads on TV.

Instead of reading "a book [someguy] wrote" I'd heavily suggest to stick to
published studies from peer-reviewed journals.

Like:

     Int J Oncol. 2005 Mar;26(3):785-92. Links

A combination of docosahexaenoic acid and celecoxib prevents prostate cancer
cell growth in vitro and is associated with modulation of nuclear
factor-kappaB, and steroid hormone receptors.

Narayanan NK, Narayanan BA, Reddy BS.

Department of Environmental Medicine, New York University School of
Medicine, Tuxedo, NY 10987, USA. nnarayan@env.med.nyu.edu.

Epidemiological studies have provided evidence that high intake of saturated
fat and/or animal fat increases the risk of prostate cancer, but on the
other hand, diets rich in omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (n-3 PUFAs),
present in fish oils were found to reduce the risk. There are indications of
an increased expression of immunoreactive PPARgamma in prostatic
intraepithelial neoplasia (PIN) and prostate cancer, suggesting that
PPARgamma ligands may exert their own potent anti-proliferative effect
against prostate cancer. The experimental evidence for the role of
cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) in prostate carcinogenesis is well established
through several investigations. It clearly suggests the need for development
of strategies to inhibit COX-2 mediated prostate carcinogenesis. However,
administration of high doses of COX-2 inhibitors, such as celecoxib, over
longer periods may not be devoid of side effects. We assessed the efficacy
of DHA and celecoxib individually and in combination at low doses in three
prostate cancer cell lines (LNCaP, DU145 and PC-3) measuring cell growth
inhibition and apoptosis, and on the levels of expression of COX-2, nuclear
factor-kappaB (NF-kappaBp65), and nuclear receptors, such as PPARgamma and
retinoid X receptors (RXR), all of which presumably participate in prostate
carcinogenesis. A 48-h incubation of prostate cancer cells with 5 microM
each of DHA or celecoxib induced cell growth inhibition and apoptosis, and
altered the expression of the above molecular parameters. Interestingly, the
modulation of these cellular and molecular parameters was more pronounced in
cells treated with low doses of DHA and celecoxib (2.5 microM each) in
combination than in cells treated with the higher doses of individual
agents. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates for the first time
that a combination of lower doses of the n-3 PUFA, and DHA with the
selective COX-2 inhibitor celecoxib effectively modulates the above cellular
and molecular parameters that are relevant to prostate cancer. This raises
the intriguing prospect that the use of low doses of a COX-2 inhibitor in
combination with an n-3 PUFA could be a highly promising strategy for
prostate cancer chemoprevention while minimizing undesired side effects.

-------------

     Br J Cancer. 2005 Feb 01; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles,
Links

Specific fatty acid intake and the risk of pancreatic cancer in Canada.

Nkondjock A, Krewski D, Johnson KC, Ghadirian P.

[1] 1Epidemiology Research Unit, Research Centre, Centre hospitalier de
l'Universite de Montreal (CHUM)-Hotel-Dieu, Montreal, QC, Canada [2]
2McLaughlin Centre for Population Health Risk Assessment, Institute of
Population Health, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, ON, Canada.

The possible association of specific fatty acid (FA) intake and pancreatic
cancer risk was investigated in a population-based case-control study of 462
histologically confirmed cases and 4721 frequency-matched controls in eight
Canadian provinces between 1994 and 1997. Dietary intake was assessed by
means of a self-administered food frequency questionnaire. Unconditional
logistic regression was used to assess associations between dietary FAs and
pancreatic cancer risk. After adjustment for age, province, body mass index,
smoking, educational attainment, fat and total energy intake, statistically
significant inverse associations were observed between pancreatic cancer
risk and palmitate (odds ratios (ORs)=0.73; 95% confidence intervals (CIs)
0.56-0.96; P-trend=0.02), stearate (OR=0.70; 95% CI 0.51-0.94;
P-trend=0.04), oleate (OR=0.75; 95% CI 0.55-1.02; P-trend=0.04), saturated
FAs (OR=0.67; 95% CI 0.50-0.91; P-trend=0.01), and monounsaturated FAs
(OR=0.72; 95% CI 0.53-0.98; P-trend=0.02), when comparing the highest
quartile of intake to the lowest. Significant interactions were detected
between body mass index and both saturated and monounsaturated FAs, with a
markedly reduced risk associated with intake of stearate (OR=0.36; 95% CI
0.18-0.70; P-trend=0.001), oleate (OR=0.36; 95% CI 0.19-0.72;
P-trend=0.002), saturated FAs (OR=0.35; 95% CI 0.18-0.67; P-trend=0.002),
and monounsaturated FAs (OR=0.32; 95% CI 0.16-0.63; P-trend<0.0001) among
subjects who are obese. The results suggest that substituting
polyunsaturated FAs with saturated or monounsaturated FAs may reduce
pancreatic cancer risk, independently of total energy intake, particularly
among obese subjects.British Journal of Cancer advance online publication, 1
February 2005; doi:10.1038/sj.bjc.6602380 www.bjcancer.com.
montygram - 12 Feb 2005 03:24 GMT
I've been quoting studies here with statement like the one above " The
results suggest that substituting
polyunsaturated FAs with saturated or monounsaturated FAs may reduce
pancreatic cancer risk..." for years now, but most people don't
understandt the basic biochemical and physiological mechanisms, and
Fife does a decent job of conveying them in a simplified but
informative way.
montygram - 12 Feb 2005 03:33 GMT
Just thought I should mention that the two studies you cited would
really confuse most people.  One makes it seem like "saturated fat" is
"bad," whereas the other says the opposite.  If you wanted to make a
case for citing abstracts, you've done about the worst job possible.
SInce I know that omega 3 PUFAs interfere with omega 6 PUFA
metabolization, and that with more SFAs you don't have to worry about
consuming more omega 3s, they make sense to me and I have no problems
with the actual experimental data (as opposed to the assumptions made).
However, those who haven't read my posts about the confusion in the
phrase "saturated fat" would be lost.  This is why a book like Fife's
is good, and why I am working on what I think will be even better (in a
number of ways) at this time.
Juhana Harju - 12 Feb 2005 18:32 GMT
:: Hi,
:: Im a guy in the UK who previously didnt care about what i ate, until
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
::
:: Sorry for such a long post, Would Really appreachiate any replies,

If you are serious in your posting I think that there is a lot that you
can learn and not only about fatty acids. :-)
If you really want to learn about a healthy diet I suggest that you make
a Google search about the _traditional Cretan Mediterranean Diet_ and
start applying that to your life.

_ Extra virgin olive oil_ is the safest option to use. In addition of
olive oil you need omega-3 fatty acids from _fatty fish_. I also suggest
that you start eating a lot of vegetables and fruits. Cut all refined
grains and use only whole grain products. Fatty fish and pulses (tofu,
beans, lentils) are better protein choices than chicken.

Signature

Juhana

adam_becker_sr@yahoo.com - 12 Feb 2005 19:24 GMT
>  omega-3 fatty acids from _fatty fish_.

Juhana, good point.

DIdn't you (or somebody around here) post recently about a vegetarian
source of long chain omega-3 fatty acids?  Some seaweed or fungus or
something?  I googled but coulnd't find.

I ask not for myself (I love sardines) but for my wife who detests
anything fishy taking - including fish oil capsules.

Adam Becker
montygram - 12 Feb 2005 19:40 GMT
If "saturated fat" is so "bad," then there is no scientific explanation
for the World Health Organization database, which shows very low rates
of cancer for those peoples on coconut oil or palm kernel oil diets.
If you look at Italy and other Med countries, you'll see that some have
even higher rates than the USA.  You might have read a textbook, but
it's time to start looking at the actual evidence.  Perhaps then you
will be more in touch with the scientific reality here.
TonySeb - 14 Feb 2005 23:02 GMT
montygram:

Regarding your comment, "...very low rates of cancer for those peoples
on coconut oil or palm kernel oil diets", shouldn't one consider the
issue of the relation of saturated fat consumption and cancer risk in
relation to the total diet composition of the coconut and palm kernel
oil eaters, and indeed, their whole lifestyle profile?
Juhana Harju - 15 Feb 2005 06:00 GMT
:: Regarding [Montygram's] comment, "...very low rates of cancer for
those
:: peoples on coconut oil or palm kernel oil diets", shouldn't one
:: consider the issue of the relation of saturated fat consumption and
:: cancer risk in relation to the total diet composition of the coconut
:: and palm kernel oil eaters, and indeed, their whole lifestyle
:: profile?

Yes, the Thai diets are high in vegetables and there are certain spices
that have anti-cancer properties (turmeric, kaffir lime leaves, lemon
grass and galangal root) which are widely used. I have experimented with
those spices and I like them.

Signature

Juhana

Juhana Harju - 15 Feb 2005 06:18 GMT
:: TonySeb wrote:
:::: Regarding [Montygram's] comment, "...very low rates of cancer for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
:: leaves, lemon grass and galangal root) which are widely used. I have
:: experimented with those spices and I like them.

_Thai soup, a powerful antioxidant_

14/12/2000 - A daily bowl of "tom yum gung", Thailand's celebrated spicy
shrimp soup, might help keep the doctor away, the Bangkok Post reported
this week. According to the preliminary results of a Thai-Japanese study
into the medicinal qualities of Thai cuisine, tom yum gung contains
several anti-cancer properties that are more effective than other
antioxidants, including vitamin C and the vitamin precursor
betacarotene.

The study concluded that substances found in galanga, lemon grass and
kaffir lime leaves - the main ingredients in the spicy soup - are 100
times more effective in inhibiting tumours than those found in other
foods. Researchers at Thailand's Kasetsart University, who conducted the
study with Kyoto and Kinki universities in Japan, claimed that the
results confirmed "folk knowledge" and that traditional Thai cuisine,
famed for its heavy use of herbs and spices, has long been known to have
health benefits. The researchers added that they had discovered a type
of antioxidant, called 1'- acetoxychavicol acetate (ACA), in the soup's
ingredients, which was 100 times more effective in blocking cancer
growths than betacarotene - currently deemed the substance with the best
cancer- fighting properties. Research on tom yum gung and other
well-known Thai dishes began in 1993 after a discovery by Japanese
researchers that Thais have a much lower rate of cancer of the digestive
tract than Japanese, Filipinos and Westerners.

http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-ng.asp?id=39881-thai-soup-a

Unfortunately I have not found any published studies about this.

Signature

Juhana

Juhana Harju - 15 Feb 2005 06:37 GMT
:: Juhana Harju wrote:
:::: TonySeb wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
::
:: Unfortunately I have not found any published studies about this.

CANCER PREVENTIVE POTENTIALS OF VEGETABLES AND FRUITS FROM SOUTHEAST
ASIA AND SOME OF THEIR ACTIVE CONSTITUENTS
    K. Koshimizu, A. Murakami, H. Ohigashi
        Cancer prevention, Citrus hystrix, bitter orange, Languas
galanga, great galangal, glyceroglycolipid, acetoxychavicol acetate
     Abstract:
     A total of 112 species of edible plants (122 samples) from
Thailand were randomly collected, and their methanol-extracts screened
for in vitro anti-tumor promoting activity using the inhibition test of
tumor promoter-induced Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) activation in Raji
cells. It was found that 60% of these extracts inhibited EBV activation
by 30% or more at a concentration of 200 mg/ml. It should be noted that
the ratio was markedly higher than that (26%) previously observed in
common edible plants in Japan. The species in the families Labiatae,
Piperaceae, Rutaceae and Zingiberaceae were promising sources of
effective anti-tumor promoters. In addition, anti-tumor promoting
effects of two active constituents,
1,2-di-O--linolenoyl-3-O--galactopyranosyl-sn-glycerol (DLGG, Citrus
hystrix), and 1'-acetoxychavicol acetate (ACA, Languas galanga),
together with their possible mode of action investigated thus far, are
described.

Signature

Juhana

Juhana Harju - 15 Feb 2005 06:47 GMT
:::: Juhana Harju wrote:
:::::: TonySeb wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
:::: cancer growths than betacarotene - currently deemed the substance
:::: with the best cancer- fighting properties. [...] Thais have a much
lower
:::: rate of cancer of the digestive tract than Japanese, Filipinos and
:::: Westerners.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:: galanga, great galangal, glyceroglycolipid, acetoxychavicol acetate
:: Abstract: [...]

Here is a good review of the anti-tumour properties of Thai foods.

http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/APJCN/Vol3/Num4/34p185.htm

So, I think that saturated fat content of Thai foods is not the main
reason for their low cancer rates.

Signature

Juhana

Juhana Harju - 12 Feb 2005 20:15 GMT
:::  omega-3 fatty acids from _fatty fish_.
::
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
::
:: Adam Becker

I recall it was Pearl who was speaking about vegetarian DHA capsules
made from seaweed. They are OK but more expensive than fish oils.

Signature

Juhana

Juhana Harju - 12 Feb 2005 20:44 GMT
:: adam_becker_sr@yahoo.com wrote:
:::::  omega-3 fatty acids from _fatty fish_.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
:: I recall it was Pearl who was speaking about vegetarian DHA capsules
:: made from seaweed. They are OK but more expensive than fish oils.

http://www.detoxyourworld.com/products/food/omega_zen/

http://www.nutru.com/dha-omega.htm

Signature

Juhana

andrewvecsey@hotmail.com - 14 Feb 2005 09:57 GMT
Why worry about getting omega3 derivatives like EPA/DHA from food
sources when you can get all the LNA from ground flax seeds that your
body needs to make its own EPA/DHA. See my paper at
http://www.geocities.com/andrewvecsey/omega3.html
for a detailed paper on flax and omega3
regards
andrew vecsey

> >  omega-3 fatty acids from _fatty fish_.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Adam Becker
Juhana Harju - 14 Feb 2005 10:07 GMT
:: Why worry about getting omega3 derivatives like EPA/DHA from food
:: sources when you can get all the LNA from ground flax seeds that your
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
::: I ask not for myself (I love sardines) but for my wife who detests
::: anything fishy taking - including fish oil capsules.

Because there is not enough elongation from alpha linolenic acid to EPA
and DHA - you can be sure about the elongation only if you are young,
female and healthy. Many people might also find it unpractical or
difficult to use ground flax seeds on a daily bases. LNA obtained from
extracted oils correlates with higher prostate cancer risk.

Signature

Juhana

DZ - 16 Feb 2005 07:17 GMT
> Why worry about getting omega3 derivatives like EPA/DHA from food
> sources when you can get all the LNA from ground flax seeds that
> your body needs to make its own EPA/DHA.  See my paper at
> http://www.geocities.com/andrewvecsey/omega3.html for a detailed
> paper on flax and omega3

Most adults cannot effectively make these conversions. It is limited,
especially to DHA - http://tinyurl.com/4cdrx

DZ
montygram - 16 Feb 2005 22:15 GMT
There is a very large literature on how PUFAs cause cancer, especially
omega 3s.  If you eliminate them from the diet, you don't have to worry
about eating things with "tumor fighting" qualities.  Poison fights
tumors, after all.  It's not as simple as some of you think.  You are
thinking that cancers just happen, which is inaccurate.  But you'll
need to read the literature with an open mind, because it's clear that
your misconceptions are clouding your thoughts.  It's not just the
Thai, it's just about every third world nation.  And they generally
have very low heart disease rates as well.  The only thing they share
is much higher fatty acid  consumption, lower omega 6 PUFA consumption,
and lower caloric intake in general.  Omega 3's can have "anti-tumor
effects," by the way, because it's so toxic.  Do you want to give
yourself chemotherapy before you get cancer (and may never, if you
convert to coconut or palm kernel oil)?
D1ZZ1 - 16 Feb 2005 22:52 GMT
> There is a very large literature on how PUFAs cause cancer, especially
> omega 3s.  If you eliminate them from the diet, you don't have to worry
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> need to read the literature with an open mind, because it's clear that
> your misconceptions are clouding your thoughts.  

Do you disppute that adults have limited ability to elongate EPAs?
Because that's what was in the post you just followed up to. Try to
stay focused - your thougths are clouded and confused.

> It's not just the Thai, it's just about every third world nation.
> And they generally have very low heart disease rates as well.  The
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> cancer (and may never, if you convert to coconut or palm kernel
> oil)?
 
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