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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2005

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Glucosmine vs. Chondroitin

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David D. - 27 Jan 2005 14:14 GMT
Do glucosamine and chondroitin have different pharmacological effects?  If
so, what are they?

I am a 60-yr. old skate-dancer, and I have found that taking a supplement of
glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM significantly mitigates the effects of the
stresses that I put on my knees, hips and surrounding ligaments and muscles.

Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and
still achieve the same results.

- David
MilkyWhy - 27 Jan 2005 15:28 GMT
>Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and
>still achieve the same results.

Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr are
bundled into the same pill. Do you think that chondroitin is giving some side
effect?
David D. - 27 Jan 2005 18:32 GMT
> Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr are
> bundled into the same pill. Do you think that chondroitin is giving some side
> effect?

I am currently taking a supplement that contains all three -- Gluco, Chondr
and MSM.   If I get down to a combination of only two, then the pills will
be far less costly.   The MSM is necessary to avoid swelling of ligaments
and muscles from the stresses of skate-dancing.

 - David
flacey - 28 Jan 2005 06:03 GMT
The below article was published on
http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm

Chondroitin Sulfate for Relief of Osteoarthritis Symptoms in Prostate
Cancer Patients By Charles "Snuffy" Myers, MD
information last updated on January, 2005

Patients often use chondroitin sulfate in combination with glucosamine
to relieve osteoarthritis symptoms. Unfortunately, chondroitin sulfate
also appears to play such a major role in cancer biology that using it
may be risky.

The cartilage that lines your joints incorporates a group of proteins
that contain chondroitin sulfate. When the joint is damaged (as it is
in osteoarthritis), the joint cartilage responds by producing an array
of chondroitin-containing proteins in a futile attempt to heal. The
general consensus suggests that oral chondroitin sulfate enhances the
effectiveness of these proteins, improving joint function and relieving
pain. One of the proteins produced in the arthritic joint is the
chondroitin binding protein versican.

You can find versican on the surface of a wide range of cancer cell
types. In general, the greater the amount of chondroitin-containing
versican bound to the cancer cell, the more likely it is that the
cancer cell will be able to spread widely throughout the body. There is
sufficient documentation of this effect of versican for prostate
cancer, melanoma, some brain tumors, and a range of other cancers. For
example, the amount of chondroitin sulfate found associated with
prostate cancer in radical prostatectomy specimens correlates with the
risk of recurrent disease.

Versican is not the only chondroitin sulfate-containing protein found
on prostate cancer cells. TNB2 is a chondroitin sulfate-containing
protein whose appearance is associated with the development of
hormone-independent prostate cancer. It's also more likely to be
found in prostate cancers with Gleason grades 8-10 rather than in low
Gleason grade tumors that normally have a good prognosis.

Chondroitinases are proteins that cleave chondroitin sulfate from
proteins like versican. In animal experiments, chondroitinase
treatments slow the progression of cancer, leading to the suggestion
that chondroitin-containing proteins on the surface of cancer cells are
a useful therapeutic target.

All of this science suggests that taking the sufficient amount of
chondroitin sulfate to protect the cartilage lining of your joints
might also foster prostate cancer progression, as well as the growth of
other malignancies. I recommend you avoid chondroitin sulfate until
clinical trials can demonstrate its safety.

Alternatively, I recommend glucosamine, because there is no evidence
that glucosamine fosters the progression of prostate cancer.
Furthermore, a randomized controlled clinical trial shows that
glucosamine preserves the thickness of joint cartilage, thus slowing
the progression of osteoarthritis. In this trial, they used daily
glucosamine sulfate doses of 1,500 mg over a three-year period.

References:
1. D.P. De Klerk, et al., "Glycosaminoglycans of human prostatic
cancer" J Urol 131: 1008-12, 1984.
2. M.R. Freeman, et al., "Extracellular matrix and androgen receptor
expression associated with spontaneous transformation of rat prostate
fibroblasts" Cancer Res 51: 1910-6, 1991.
3. D.H. Schamhart, et al., "Role of proteoglycans in cell adhesion of
prostate cancer cells: from review to experiment" Urol Res 25: S89-96,
1997.
4. S. Iida, et al., "Analysis of glycosaminoglycans in human prostate
by high-performance liquid chromatography" Br J Urol 79: 763-9, 1997.
5. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated stromal chondroitin sulfate
glycosaminoglycan predicts progression in early-stage prostate cancer"
Clin Cancer Res 3: 983-92, 1997.
6. J.P. Rodriguez, et al., "Soluble factors secreted by PC-3 cells
induce structural changes in proteoglycans produced by fetal rat
osteoblasts" Tumour Biol 19: 19-29, 1998.
7. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated levels of versican but not
decorin predict disease progression in early-stage prostate cancer"
Clin Cancer Res 4: 963-71, 1998.
8. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated levels of peritumoral chondroitin
sulfate are predictive of poor prognosis in patients treated by radical
prostatectomy for early- stage prostate cancer" Cancer Res 59: 2324-8,
1999.
9. K.M. Eisenmann, et al., "Melanoma chondroitin sulphate proteoglycan
regulates cell spreading through Cdc42, Ack-1 and p130cas" Nat Cell
Biol 1: 507-13, 1999.
10. J.Y. Reginster, et al., "Long-term effects of glucosamine sulphate
on osteoarthritis progression: a randomised, placebo-controlled
clinical trial" Lancet 357: 251-6, 2001.
11. N.M. Thie, et al., "Evaluation of glucosamine sulfate compared to
ibuprofen for the treatment of temporomandibular joint osteoarthritis:
a randomized double blind controlled 3 month clinical trial" J
Rheumatol 28: 1347-55, 2001.
12. E. Glynne-Jones, et al., "TENB2, a proteoglycan identified in
prostate cancer that is associated with disease progression and
androgen independence" Int J Cancer 94: 178-84, 2001.
13. E.M. Denholm, et al., "Anti-tumor activities of chondroitinase AC
and chondroitinase B: inhibition of angiogenesis, proliferation and
invasion" Eur J Pharmacol 416: 213-21, 2001.
14. M. Touab, et al., "Versican is differentially expressed in human
melanoma and may play a role in tumor development" Am J Pathol 160:
549-57, 2002.

There is a product called Glucosatrin w/ 1500mg of glucosamine and 3
cox-2 inhibitors that works well for joint health.

> > Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr
> are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>   - David
David D. - 29 Jan 2005 14:26 GMT
Ouch!

Thanks, Flacey.   When I use up my current supps, I will drop the
Chondroitin.

Thanks for the web site references, also.

- David

> The below article was published on
> http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> >
> >   - David
Phil Scott - 01 Feb 2005 09:08 GMT
> Ouch!
>
> Thanks, Flacey.   When I use up my current supps, I will drop the
> Chondroitin.

dont do that...investigate first...it may only run up the
risk say by 2%... and for only certain types... and if you
look all that over in your case the risk may not outweigh the
benefit to yer joints.

do you know how to do a google search?

Phil Scott

> Thanks for the web site references, also.
>
>  - David
>
> "flacey" <flacey@houston.rr.com> wrote in message

news:1106892202.504034.153670@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > The below article was published on
> > http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
> >
> > > "MilkyWhy" <milkywhy@wmconnect.com> wrote in message

news:20050127102843.10657.00000298@mb-m29.wmconnect.com...

> > > > Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and
> > Chondr
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > >
> > >   - David
flacey - 05 Feb 2005 18:52 GMT
Why increase the risk?

Facts & Figures

Prostate cancer is diagnosed every 2 1/4 minutes, over 232,000 new
cases are expected in 2005. It is the most commonly diagnosed cancer in
America among men. An estimated 30,350 American men will lose their
lives to prostate cancer this year alone, one death every 18 minutes.
That's more new cases than any other form of cancer.

Prostate cancer incidence rates increased 192 percent between 1973 and
1992.

One in six American men is at lifetime risk of prostate cancer. If a
close relative has prostate cancer, a man's risk of the disease more
than doubles. With two relatives, his risk increases fivefold. With
three close relatives, his risk is about 97%.

In the next 24 hours, prostate cancer will claim the lives of 83
American men.

Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in
American men.
Phil Scott - 05 Feb 2005 23:50 GMT
> Why increase the risk?

  No need to be mathematically illiterate...but if you wish.

  Here is the deal, if the risk for something is say  1 in
million, and you 5x or even 10x the risk... the net risk
increase to you is mathematically irrelevent.

  Those that do that spin, then ignore the fact that say
smoking for instance runs risk one in 3...now THATS
significant.

also these studies to not parse for individuals.. doing that
closely, and it takes brains, so some will be able .. you can
decide if the 3% increase is even relevant....in most cases
its not only not relevent but the bogus spin from some special
iterests, like the drug manufacturers trying to spin vitamin E
as dangerous.... and well..it is...  Water too is dangerous,
if you drink more than a gallon an hour for a while you will
die from it...and thats proven..  and its true.    Its just
irrelevant as applied in peoples lives.

> Facts & Figures
>
> Prostate cancer is diagnosed every 2 1/4 minutes, over 232,000 new
> cases are expected in 2005.

Irrelevant... especially world wide...and the dumb a.s report
ignores the fact that all men get prostate cancer if they live
long enough...and that most die of other causes after
diagnosed with prostate cancer... bogus spin you see...by a
bunch of slime balls trying sell thier fatal arthritis
drugs...

Getting a clue yet or are you fronting this crap for the drug
companies?

It is the most commonly diagnosed cancer in
> America among men. An estimated 30,350 American men will lose their
> lives to prostate cancer this year alone, one death every 18 minutes.
> That's more new cases than any other form of cancer.

Thats false on the face of it...given over 200 million
american males in the us... a hundredeth of one percent of the
US male population...get a clooooo mon.

Those stats are *bogus...you are unable to add and subtract or
something.

Bad joints over 50 however is about 60% common... so you are
comparing the two?   Ahhh hopes yer drug company employer goes
broke bud.

> Prostate cancer incidence rates increased 192 percent between 1973 and
> 1992.

   Thats because men are living longer turd breath...the
numbers are still miniscule.   and for that you want to trash
glucocamine use...? which I seriously doubt could be shown to
increase prostate cancer risks in such a small percentile
range with so many other factors.

> One in six American men is at lifetime risk of prostate cancer. If a
> close relative has prostate cancer, a man's risk of the disease more
> than doubles. With two relatives, his risk increases fivefold. With
> three close relatives, his risk is about 97%.

  oh  puhleeeeze.

> In the next 24 hours, prostate cancer will claim the lives of 83
> American men.

Thats irrelevant unless compared directly to the numbers who
will die in the next 24 hours of all causes... prostate cancer
ranks near the invisible trace levels at the bottom of the
list... and you should know that.    Heart disease still ranks
first in most cases, in a hot tie with cancers of all
types...prostate is one of the most curable and minor forms of
cancer in men.

Your lies and spin waste time bud...

> Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in
> American men.

False on the face of it.

and you have distracted from the spectacular good news of
Glucosamine and Crondotin for folks over 40.... very little or
no risks, so small as to be hard to measure.

Your drug companies VIOXX though killed 200,000
people...dead... and maimed a few million more... there is
massive evidence and billions in law suits... not a hair split
issue bud.

Your drug company buddies are headed for the tank these days,
did you know that... to survive they are trying to trash
nutritives... amazing.

Pure scum these are.

Phil Scott
John Que - 12 Feb 2005 10:32 GMT
> Why increase the risk?
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in
> American men.

Thus it is wise to have a generous vitamin D intake, 200 mcg of
selenium, rrr-alpha tocopherol succinate, other forms of
of E such as gamma, and lycopene. Keeping the estrogen
levels down should also help.
Juhana Harju - 12 Feb 2005 20:46 GMT

::: Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in
::: American men.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:: of E such as gamma, and lycopene. Keeping the estrogen
:: levels down should also help.

Resveratrol in red wine helps also.

Signature

Juhana

askpam@gmail.com - 28 Jan 2005 14:21 GMT
David

You may want to check out USANA   They offer Procosa II  Glucosamine
that is great.  If you look at the company it is founded on intergrity
and backed by science.  Check it out it could be what you are looking
for
www.askpam.usana.com  (go to products)
Phil Scott - 01 Feb 2005 09:06 GMT
> Do glucosamine and chondroitin have different pharmacological effects?  If
> so, what are they?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and
> still achieve the same results.

Use all 3 for 6 months at least..beyond a year or two in me at
least the joints tend to pack up with too much cartilage or
whatever ...I can feel it..  so now I take the suppliment
maybe for 30 days a year...Im 64 and in the trades about 20
hours a week...and engineering the other 20.

and yes each has a different effect...the glucosamine builds
cartilage, the msm im not sure of, and the crondotin is a
joint lubricant.

I went from hard to walk very far 3 years ago, to no problem
now.

Phil Scott

>  - David
 
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