Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / February 2005
Glucosmine vs. Chondroitin
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David D. - 27 Jan 2005 14:14 GMT Do glucosamine and chondroitin have different pharmacological effects? If so, what are they?
I am a 60-yr. old skate-dancer, and I have found that taking a supplement of glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM significantly mitigates the effects of the stresses that I put on my knees, hips and surrounding ligaments and muscles.
Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and still achieve the same results.
- David
MilkyWhy - 27 Jan 2005 15:28 GMT >Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and >still achieve the same results. Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr are bundled into the same pill. Do you think that chondroitin is giving some side effect?
David D. - 27 Jan 2005 18:32 GMT > Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr are > bundled into the same pill. Do you think that chondroitin is giving some side > effect? I am currently taking a supplement that contains all three -- Gluco, Chondr and MSM. If I get down to a combination of only two, then the pills will be far less costly. The MSM is necessary to avoid swelling of ligaments and muscles from the stresses of skate-dancing.
- David
flacey - 28 Jan 2005 06:03 GMT The below article was published on http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm
Chondroitin Sulfate for Relief of Osteoarthritis Symptoms in Prostate Cancer Patients By Charles "Snuffy" Myers, MD information last updated on January, 2005
Patients often use chondroitin sulfate in combination with glucosamine to relieve osteoarthritis symptoms. Unfortunately, chondroitin sulfate also appears to play such a major role in cancer biology that using it may be risky.
The cartilage that lines your joints incorporates a group of proteins that contain chondroitin sulfate. When the joint is damaged (as it is in osteoarthritis), the joint cartilage responds by producing an array of chondroitin-containing proteins in a futile attempt to heal. The general consensus suggests that oral chondroitin sulfate enhances the effectiveness of these proteins, improving joint function and relieving pain. One of the proteins produced in the arthritic joint is the chondroitin binding protein versican.
You can find versican on the surface of a wide range of cancer cell types. In general, the greater the amount of chondroitin-containing versican bound to the cancer cell, the more likely it is that the cancer cell will be able to spread widely throughout the body. There is sufficient documentation of this effect of versican for prostate cancer, melanoma, some brain tumors, and a range of other cancers. For example, the amount of chondroitin sulfate found associated with prostate cancer in radical prostatectomy specimens correlates with the risk of recurrent disease.
Versican is not the only chondroitin sulfate-containing protein found on prostate cancer cells. TNB2 is a chondroitin sulfate-containing protein whose appearance is associated with the development of hormone-independent prostate cancer. It's also more likely to be found in prostate cancers with Gleason grades 8-10 rather than in low Gleason grade tumors that normally have a good prognosis.
Chondroitinases are proteins that cleave chondroitin sulfate from proteins like versican. In animal experiments, chondroitinase treatments slow the progression of cancer, leading to the suggestion that chondroitin-containing proteins on the surface of cancer cells are a useful therapeutic target.
All of this science suggests that taking the sufficient amount of chondroitin sulfate to protect the cartilage lining of your joints might also foster prostate cancer progression, as well as the growth of other malignancies. I recommend you avoid chondroitin sulfate until clinical trials can demonstrate its safety.
Alternatively, I recommend glucosamine, because there is no evidence that glucosamine fosters the progression of prostate cancer. Furthermore, a randomized controlled clinical trial shows that glucosamine preserves the thickness of joint cartilage, thus slowing the progression of osteoarthritis. In this trial, they used daily glucosamine sulfate doses of 1,500 mg over a three-year period.
References: 1. D.P. De Klerk, et al., "Glycosaminoglycans of human prostatic cancer" J Urol 131: 1008-12, 1984. 2. M.R. Freeman, et al., "Extracellular matrix and androgen receptor expression associated with spontaneous transformation of rat prostate fibroblasts" Cancer Res 51: 1910-6, 1991. 3. D.H. Schamhart, et al., "Role of proteoglycans in cell adhesion of prostate cancer cells: from review to experiment" Urol Res 25: S89-96, 1997. 4. S. Iida, et al., "Analysis of glycosaminoglycans in human prostate by high-performance liquid chromatography" Br J Urol 79: 763-9, 1997. 5. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated stromal chondroitin sulfate glycosaminoglycan predicts progression in early-stage prostate cancer" Clin Cancer Res 3: 983-92, 1997. 6. J.P. Rodriguez, et al., "Soluble factors secreted by PC-3 cells induce structural changes in proteoglycans produced by fetal rat osteoblasts" Tumour Biol 19: 19-29, 1998. 7. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated levels of versican but not decorin predict disease progression in early-stage prostate cancer" Clin Cancer Res 4: 963-71, 1998. 8. C. Ricciardelli, et al., "Elevated levels of peritumoral chondroitin sulfate are predictive of poor prognosis in patients treated by radical prostatectomy for early- stage prostate cancer" Cancer Res 59: 2324-8, 1999. 9. K.M. Eisenmann, et al., "Melanoma chondroitin sulphate proteoglycan regulates cell spreading through Cdc42, Ack-1 and p130cas" Nat Cell Biol 1: 507-13, 1999. 10. J.Y. Reginster, et al., "Long-term effects of glucosamine sulphate on osteoarthritis progression: a randomised, placebo-controlled clinical trial" Lancet 357: 251-6, 2001. 11. N.M. Thie, et al., "Evaluation of glucosamine sulfate compared to ibuprofen for the treatment of temporomandibular joint osteoarthritis: a randomized double blind controlled 3 month clinical trial" J Rheumatol 28: 1347-55, 2001. 12. E. Glynne-Jones, et al., "TENB2, a proteoglycan identified in prostate cancer that is associated with disease progression and androgen independence" Int J Cancer 94: 178-84, 2001. 13. E.M. Denholm, et al., "Anti-tumor activities of chondroitinase AC and chondroitinase B: inhibition of angiogenesis, proliferation and invasion" Eur J Pharmacol 416: 213-21, 2001. 14. M. Touab, et al., "Versican is differentially expressed in human melanoma and may play a role in tumor development" Am J Pathol 160: 549-57, 2002.
There is a product called Glucosatrin w/ 1500mg of glucosamine and 3 cox-2 inhibitors that works well for joint health.
> > Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and Chondr > are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - David David D. - 29 Jan 2005 14:26 GMT Ouch!
Thanks, Flacey. When I use up my current supps, I will drop the Chondroitin.
Thanks for the web site references, also.
- David
> The below article was published on > http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > > > > - David Phil Scott - 01 Feb 2005 09:08 GMT > Ouch! > > Thanks, Flacey. When I use up my current supps, I will drop the > Chondroitin. dont do that...investigate first...it may only run up the risk say by 2%... and for only certain types... and if you look all that over in your case the risk may not outweigh the benefit to yer joints.
do you know how to do a google search?
Phil Scott
> Thanks for the web site references, also. > > - David > > "flacey" <flacey@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:1106892202.504034.153670@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > The below article was published on > > http://www.malecare.com/new_page_26.htm [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > > > > "MilkyWhy" <milkywhy@wmconnect.com> wrote in message news:20050127102843.10657.00000298@mb-m29.wmconnect.com...
> > > > Why though. I just buy G&C in a big bottle from WalMart. Gluco and > > Chondr [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > > > - David flacey - 05 Feb 2005 18:52 GMT Why increase the risk?
Facts & Figures
Prostate cancer is diagnosed every 2 1/4 minutes, over 232,000 new cases are expected in 2005. It is the most commonly diagnosed cancer in America among men. An estimated 30,350 American men will lose their lives to prostate cancer this year alone, one death every 18 minutes. That's more new cases than any other form of cancer.
Prostate cancer incidence rates increased 192 percent between 1973 and 1992.
One in six American men is at lifetime risk of prostate cancer. If a close relative has prostate cancer, a man's risk of the disease more than doubles. With two relatives, his risk increases fivefold. With three close relatives, his risk is about 97%.
In the next 24 hours, prostate cancer will claim the lives of 83 American men.
Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in American men.
Phil Scott - 05 Feb 2005 23:50 GMT > Why increase the risk? No need to be mathematically illiterate...but if you wish.
Here is the deal, if the risk for something is say 1 in million, and you 5x or even 10x the risk... the net risk increase to you is mathematically irrelevent.
Those that do that spin, then ignore the fact that say smoking for instance runs risk one in 3...now THATS significant.
also these studies to not parse for individuals.. doing that closely, and it takes brains, so some will be able .. you can decide if the 3% increase is even relevant....in most cases its not only not relevent but the bogus spin from some special iterests, like the drug manufacturers trying to spin vitamin E as dangerous.... and well..it is... Water too is dangerous, if you drink more than a gallon an hour for a while you will die from it...and thats proven.. and its true. Its just irrelevant as applied in peoples lives.
> Facts & Figures > > Prostate cancer is diagnosed every 2 1/4 minutes, over 232,000 new > cases are expected in 2005. Irrelevant... especially world wide...and the dumb a.s report ignores the fact that all men get prostate cancer if they live long enough...and that most die of other causes after diagnosed with prostate cancer... bogus spin you see...by a bunch of slime balls trying sell thier fatal arthritis drugs...
Getting a clue yet or are you fronting this crap for the drug companies?
It is the most commonly diagnosed cancer in
> America among men. An estimated 30,350 American men will lose their > lives to prostate cancer this year alone, one death every 18 minutes. > That's more new cases than any other form of cancer. Thats false on the face of it...given over 200 million american males in the us... a hundredeth of one percent of the US male population...get a clooooo mon.
Those stats are *bogus...you are unable to add and subtract or something.
Bad joints over 50 however is about 60% common... so you are comparing the two? Ahhh hopes yer drug company employer goes broke bud.
> Prostate cancer incidence rates increased 192 percent between 1973 and > 1992. Thats because men are living longer turd breath...the numbers are still miniscule. and for that you want to trash glucocamine use...? which I seriously doubt could be shown to increase prostate cancer risks in such a small percentile range with so many other factors.
> One in six American men is at lifetime risk of prostate cancer. If a > close relative has prostate cancer, a man's risk of the disease more > than doubles. With two relatives, his risk increases fivefold. With > three close relatives, his risk is about 97%. oh puhleeeeze.
> In the next 24 hours, prostate cancer will claim the lives of 83 > American men. Thats irrelevant unless compared directly to the numbers who will die in the next 24 hours of all causes... prostate cancer ranks near the invisible trace levels at the bottom of the list... and you should know that. Heart disease still ranks first in most cases, in a hot tie with cancers of all types...prostate is one of the most curable and minor forms of cancer in men.
Your lies and spin waste time bud...
> Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in > American men. False on the face of it.
and you have distracted from the spectacular good news of Glucosamine and Crondotin for folks over 40.... very little or no risks, so small as to be hard to measure.
Your drug companies VIOXX though killed 200,000 people...dead... and maimed a few million more... there is massive evidence and billions in law suits... not a hair split issue bud.
Your drug company buddies are headed for the tank these days, did you know that... to survive they are trying to trash nutritives... amazing.
Pure scum these are.
Phil Scott
John Que - 12 Feb 2005 10:32 GMT > Why increase the risk? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in > American men. Thus it is wise to have a generous vitamin D intake, 200 mcg of selenium, rrr-alpha tocopherol succinate, other forms of of E such as gamma, and lycopene. Keeping the estrogen levels down should also help.
Juhana Harju - 12 Feb 2005 20:46 GMT
::: Prostate cancer represents 33 percent of all new cancer cases in ::: American men. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: of E such as gamma, and lycopene. Keeping the estrogen :: levels down should also help. Resveratrol in red wine helps also.
 Signature Juhana
askpam@gmail.com - 28 Jan 2005 14:21 GMT David
You may want to check out USANA They offer Procosa II Glucosamine that is great. If you look at the company it is founded on intergrity and backed by science. Check it out it could be what you are looking for www.askpam.usana.com (go to products)
Phil Scott - 01 Feb 2005 09:06 GMT > Do glucosamine and chondroitin have different pharmacological effects? If > so, what are they? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do I really need all three supplements, or can I drop the chondroitin and > still achieve the same results. Use all 3 for 6 months at least..beyond a year or two in me at least the joints tend to pack up with too much cartilage or whatever ...I can feel it.. so now I take the suppliment maybe for 30 days a year...Im 64 and in the trades about 20 hours a week...and engineering the other 20.
and yes each has a different effect...the glucosamine builds cartilage, the msm im not sure of, and the crondotin is a joint lubricant.
I went from hard to walk very far 3 years ago, to no problem now.
Phil Scott
> - David
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