jim, in all honesty i had no doubt that you knew very well the
functionality of a rumen. the question was purely rhetorical to show
the difference between the two. what made me respond was the way (by a
simple sentence without any argument) you simply transferred ruminal
metabolism to human gut metabolism. in reality there are few relations
between these two. you can feed a lot of chemicals to rumen bacteria,
which would be undigestable by or even nasty to human gut bacteria.
there are a lot of doubts, that metabolism studies between mammalians
(like humans and rats) are inter-tranferrable. vitamin b and vitamin c
deficient humans might be such a problem. there are a lot more
reasons, why we should accept, that there huge differences between
ruminants and "common" warm-blooded digesters.

klaus

Chuck,

I think it's a dairy industry smear campaign.  I think they're a little
concerned about the recent upswing in popularity of soy milk.  The fact
is Soy beans have been consumed by humans for ages.  If you like 'em, I
say eat or drink 'em... I do every day...

Patrick

=============================
They didn't have large parts of their diet in soy products like the ones
being processed in the US.  It is a different product, and they didn't eat
it as a main course substitute for meat.

Chuck <crobinson22@grandecom.net> writes

Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for
cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are
toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally
by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less
fermenting - 'bean curds').

Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is
probably safer.

see======================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.business.agriculture/browse_threa
d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+
a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+information+(worth+a+read)%22%2
6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f9b7a90987a314db

uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)"

Oz
May 29 2002, 8:39 am   show options

Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post)

==========================

Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.

Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.

Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.

When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.

Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.

Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.

Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.

The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.

Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.

Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.

This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.

Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.

Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.

Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.

Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.

Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.

Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.

The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.

While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.

These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.

Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"

Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.

The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

=======================================

Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
 quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends
to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso,
as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
unfermented and in very large quantities.

<...

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

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