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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / November 2004Baking Soda vs. Limestone/Dolomite
Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph of,say, 7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an exponential difference, right? Thanks. > Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda > or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you > explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph of,say, > 7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an > exponential difference, right? Thanks. Limestone (assume calcium/magnesium carbonate) has a greater ability to take up protons, i.e. to follow the following reaction: CO3(2-) + H3O(+) --> HCO3(-) + H2O (Calcium is not a participant in this reaction, nor is magnesium from magnesium carbonate.) The carbonate anion is converted to bicarbonate anion at the expense of one hydronium (H30+) cation. So, after carbonate reacts with an acidic hydronium, you end up with bicarbonate and water. Bicarbonate can take up a proton in a similar reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice the alkalinizing effect of bicarbonate. In blood chemistry (if there is where you're going with this), the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and thus provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is CO2 concentration. pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion". So, to convert pH 7.1 to an actual concentration, you determine the value of 10 ^ -7.1, where ten is raised to that exponent value. That is a concentration of 7.94 X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2. I hope that helps. Lar > > Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda > > or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice the alkalinizing > effect of bicarbonate. How many molecules of carbonate exist in 5 grams of dolomite and how many molecules of bicarbonate exist in 5 grams of baking soda? Haven't pH values already been calculated for baking soda and dolomite? [I've always thought the former was more base, more alkalinizing. If you mix baking soda with ascorbic acid, you get fizzing. Mixing dolomite with ascorbic acid produces no apparent fizzing.] In blood chemistry (if there is where you're going with > this), [yes] the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and thus > provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is CO2 concentration. I read somewhere that hospitalized burn victims need to manage/restrict their carbohydrate intake due to acidosis issues surrounding CO2 build-up and the impaired ability of the patient to expire those gases. > pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log > of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion". Hydrogen or Hydronium? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an > increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2. I was under the impression that a .1 difference represented a 10?- to 100-fold influence on pH. You're saying the difference between 7.1 and 7.2 is 26%? > I hope that helps. What did mankind do before the invention of the Solvay Process and the resulting creation of bicarbonate of soda. Fortunately, they didn't have to contend with modern pizza! > Lar >> > Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda >> > or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> alkalinizing >> effect of bicarbonate. > How many molecules of carbonate exist in 5 grams of dolomite and how > many molecules of bicarbonate exist in 5 grams of baking soda? I'll simply say that bicarbonate is at a higher concentration in sodium bicarbonate than carbonate is in dolomite. I don't think the exact number of molecules is really important. > Haven't pH values already been calculated for baking soda and > dolomite? [I've always thought the former was more base, more > alkalinizing. If you mix baking soda with ascorbic acid, you get > fizzing. Mixing dolomite with ascorbic acid produces no apparent > fizzing.] That's due to solubility. Dolomite is not readily soluble in water, or weak acids. In the stomach, HCl is the acid. Even in that acid, though, dolomite is not fully dissolved, unless it is reduced to a very fine powder slurry before ingestion. Dolomite is pretty stable, or it would have washed away in nature, rather than accumulating. Sodium bicarbonate is readily soluble. That makes it more reactive with hydronium cations, even those produced by a weak organic acid. What happens in the stomach ought to be kept distinct from what happens in the blood. >>In blood chemistry (if there is where > you're going with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > surrounding CO2 build-up and the impaired ability of the patient to > expire those gases. That's a very special case, and I think you're talking about the effect of burns inside the lungs, i.e. inhalation injury. >> pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log >> of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion". Hydrogen or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an >> increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2. > I was under the impression that a .1 difference represented a 10?- to > 100-fold influence on pH. You're saying the difference between 7.1 > and 7.2 is 26%? Check it with a calculator. By definition, because pH is based on a log-base 10 scale, each increment in the number coming before the decimal place represents a 10-fold change in concentration. A pH of 6.0 is exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.0. A ph of 6.1 is exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.1. That's 1000 %. As another example, comparing pH 7.8 to pH 7.9. The former is 10^-7.8, or 1.59 X 10-8 molar in hydronium ions. The latter is 1.26 X 10^-8. A pH of 7.8 is an increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.9. That's the beauty of logarithms. In the first example I gave earlier, the absolute increase (found by subtraction) in hydronium ion concentration was 1. 64 X 10^-8. In the second example, the increase was 0.33 X 10^-8 molar. That's the confusing part of logarithms. >> I hope that helps. > What did mankind do before the invention of the Solvay Process and > the resulting creation of bicarbonate of soda. Fortunately, they > didn't have to contend with modern pizza! >> >> Lar I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea. Lar > >> > Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda > >> > or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea. Things that cause dyspepsia. Or how was Renal Acid Load maintained in ancient Rome, for instance. I presume they ate a more balanced diet. More vegetables. Non-chlorinated drinking water. Limestone is not in short supply in Western Europe. Thanks for your reply. It was helpful. > Lar >> I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea. > Things that cause dyspepsia. Or how was Renal Acid Load maintained in > ancient Rome, for instance. The kidneys are pretty good at sorting that out, all by themselves. > I presume they ate a more balanced diet. > More vegetables. Non-chlorinated drinking water. Limestone is not in > short supply in Western Europe. Thanks for your reply. It was > helpful. I'm still not sure where you're trying to take this discussion, but you might be interested in these two links: http://www.basica.de/english/downloads/PRAL-NMT_Basica_engl.pdf http://www.mgwater.com/estend.shtml Lar |
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