Ah, he who "invented" the standard for verity now revises it. If some
industry intrest group funds research and that comes out in favor of it's
products, saying it had been done makes that research ok and verity is
assured. If it don't it ain't. Good, some previous low carb articles I
could not post can now be so, the last funded by two state meat advisory
councils, I now know they have been stamped A1 and are the model of verity
for fessing up to their support. Does this new revised standard also
apply to research done at Duke u.? In a previous revision this school was
added as forbidden because some research done there showed low carb and
other diets were similar at one year. But then I ran across a low carb
study from there supported by atkins foundation and a dairy board, if
recalling correctly, but followed the guidelines and didn't post even when
it was favorable to low carb. What about all those previously posted
articles where supported was declared but failed the verity test because,
just as stated, some research was supported by some industry intrst or
another not in favor with he who creates verity guidelines? These
shifting verity standards sure do cause one's head to spin. "Hiding"
denotes motivation and would have to be demonstrated as per some
guidelines of verity, who shall invent them?
>The "standard
guidelines for verity in this group" is not just being >funded by industry
but, much more importantly, not HIDING THE FACT >that the study is being
funded by industry. > >You yanks do not seem to have any basic
understanding of the simple >concepts of conflicts of interests. > >If the
conflict of interest is stated up front, you can then assume >some modicum
of honesty and forthrightness on the part of the >researchers and then can
evaluate the science on the basis of the >science. > >Conversely, if the
authors and researchers fail to declare >(repeatedly) their financial
interests, or, as is more typical, take >steps to hide (repeatedly) any
financial interest, then their basic >honesty amd integrity as humans and
scientists are under question, it >becomes very difficult to get past that
and actually consider the >science being presented. > >For supposedly
educated people, why do you have such blatant >blindspots when it comes to
conflicts of interest? I don't understand >how you guys have such a poor
understanding of corruption and >conflicts of interest. > >Unless you just
use it for convenience, as a point in an argument that >you know you
cannot win otherwise. Failing to find fault in the >science you grab at
any convenient reason, valid or not, to dispute >the validity of a study,
therefore you can pretend to be able to win >the argument. Cherry picking.
Hardly the high road in a scientific >debate. > >TC > >
>markd@toad-net.com wrote in message
news:<4194ff80$0$63175$4d5ecec7@reader.city >-net.com>... >> Sorry, exeeds
standard guidelines for verity set in this group: >> >> "be funded in part
by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation, has previously" >> >> >>
>http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-11/bc-vld111204.php >> > >>
>Very low-carbohydrate diets work for men and upper body fat >>
>Scientists say that low carbohydrate diets, like the Atkins and South >>
>Beach Diets, may actually be the best option for men who want to slim. >>
>New research, published this week in the Open Access journal, >>
>Nutrition & Metabolism, shows that over 70% of men lost more weight >>
>and fat on a low carbohydrate diet, despite eating more calories. >>
>Jeff Volek and colleagues, from the University of Connecticut, also >>
>show for the first time that a low carbohydrate diet is much more >>
>effective in losing fat from the stomach and chest. Upper body fat >>
>carries "a greater health risk than fat stored in other regions of the >>
>body," say the authors. They found that fat loss in men was >>
>three-times greater in the trunk area, when they were on a >>
>low-carbohydrate regime compared to the low-fat diet. Nearly all >>
>participants in the study (12 of 15 men and 12 of 13 women) lost more >>
>fat on their upper body on the low- carbohydrate diet. >> > >> >Fifteen
overweight or obese men, and thirteen women, were randomly >> >assigned to
a very low carbohydrate diet or a low fat diet. After >> >fifty days, they
were switched to the other diet. 11 of the 15 men did >> >better on the
low carbohydrate diet, six lost greater than 10 lbs more >> >on the low
carbohydrate diet, and one subject lost almost 25 pounds >> >more. Similar
results were found for women although the results were >> >less dramatic.
>> > >> >Volek and colleagues also looked at whether weight and fat loss
were >> >affected by what order the diets were done in. Their data seem to
>> >favour undertaking a low carbohydrate first, suggesting that those who
>> >have concerns about long term 'low carb' diets could follow a low carb
>> >diet first followed by a low fat diet. >> > >> >There is much debate
about the health implications of long-term use of >> >low carbohydrate
diets. Volek's lab, whose work is the first-ever to >> >be funded in part
by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation, has previously >> >shown that low
carbohydrate diets improve cardiovascular risk factors. >> > >> >For more
information about low carbohydrate diets read the review by >> >well-known
endocrinologist, Samy McFarlane, in Nutrition & Metabolism. >> >Dr
McFarlane reviews the new book, 'Atkins Diabetes Revolution', by >> >Mary
C. Vernon, M.D. and Jacqueline A. Eberstein, R.N. McFarlane and >>
>co-reviewer Surender Arora, M.D. found the book "sufficiently >>
>convincing to make us believe that some form of low carbohydrate >>
>intervention is worth investigating and should be considered by >>
>practitioners. The highly negative un-scientific response of critics, >>
>if anything, encourages us in this direction." >> > >> >This press
release is based on: >> > >> >Comparison of energy-restricted very
low-carbohydrate and low-fat >> >diets on weight loss and body composition
in overweight men and women >> >Volek JS, Sharman MJ, G?mez AL, Judelson
DA, Rubin MR, Watson G, >> >Sokmen B, Silvestre R, French DN, and Kraemer
WJ. Nutrition & >> >Metabolism 2004, 1:12 (9 November 2004) >> > >> >The
article is freely available at >>
>http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/12. >> > >> >******* >>
> >> >TC
tcomeau - 16 Nov 2004 14:55 GMT
> Ah, he who "invented" the standard for verity now revises it.
Bullshit. You are the one who "invented" the so-called standard. I am
trying to explain to you the difference between transparency and
opacity in the area of professional ethics and integrity.
Here is how it works.
Scientific authors are supposed to declare their conflicts of
interest, period. Once done, one can take that information and keep it
in mind as one peruses the study presented. That is called
transparency. It keeps everyone honest. It allows you to see the study
in the right light and with appropriate critical judgement.
If a studies authors fail to declare any financial interests, then one
is left to believe that they are without conflicts of interest. This
is misleading the reader. It is also patently dishonest,
unprofessional, and shows a fundamental lack on integrity. One is
incapable of evaluating the science in the appropriate light with the
appropriate critical judgement.
Being that 70 to 80% of all research is funded by industry, it is of
critical importance that we know this information. Do you not
understand that simple concept?
TC
markd@toad-net.com - 16 Nov 2004 16:28 GMT
He who invented the "standard" continues to do so, and revise as finds
fits his needs. He invented it when he could not provide any scientific
support for some of his claims and when research support was found and
presented to him that undercut his claims. After bing at the wrong end of
that process he started to claim that science, all scinence, was suspect
and that any that contridicted his unsupported claims was a fraud and the
results really didn't contridict his unsupported claims. By this process
he invented the standard, if some research was supported by some group it
should be tossed. My reminder to him of this from time to time is just a
bit of chain yanking to make the point, when hen he finds it convient to
present info based on support from industry but in favor of his ideas.
His attempt to take some "higher" ground on the question is a source of
some amusement to me, especially now when he finds science to his liking
because, finally, some real research outside of diet book is now being
done on low carb and the whole question of macro sources and weight
status. The point all along is that the quality of the research must
always be found in itself, unless fraud can be shown.
>> Ah, he who "invented" the standard for verity now revises it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>TC
markd@toad-net.com - 17 Nov 2004 01:14 GMT
I take your point, there is a danger of bias being introduced into
published info and it must be taken with a grain of salt. There is a
process in science that over time real fraud gets caught, but that is not
what is at issue in your observation. It is when info is massaged by what
is included and what is left out or minimized etc. that becomes the
problem. But even here this tends to be balanced over time as competing
intrests, both commercial and academic and philosophical, present their
best. This process leads in time to a concensus of the middle ground that
most folk hold. The charge used in this group by "he who makes standards"
that any research is a fraud if some group supporting it has a vested
intrest and that can not be maintained for long in light of the above.
For each beef council pushing the consumption of more meat by supporting
studies to show some benefit for their products there is a agri biz who is
eager to make known the benefits of nuts or some other commoidity. This
can in fact be healthy because it forms in time the middle concensus of
science. Just because the beef and the nut intrests support the research
to show the respective benefits of the nutrition of their products is not
based on fraud or faking data and so on as is the charge. The same thing
happens with various schools of thought on a scientific question, such as
some theory in cosmology and the evolution of the universe. But "he who
makes standards" starts with the notion that all science is suspect and
can easily be dismissed, especially if it contridicts one's dearly held
view about something. He now wants to qualify that anti science by
qualifying whtt is "good" and "bad" science now that low carb is in it's
infancy in scienctific research.
>> The point all along is that the quality of the research must
>> always be found in itself, unless fraud can be shown.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Skinny