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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / December 2004

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the perfect food

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Gabe - 07 Oct 2004 20:15 GMT
I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
what I was wondering is -- is there a food out there that comes close
to perfection nutritionally wise, something that you could take out in
the woods and live on for a few months without problems? Also, are
potatoes good or bad? I thought they were healthy but this low carb
thing has really confused me.
Thanks

Gabe Elias
markd@toad-net.com - 07 Oct 2004 21:32 GMT
There is no single thing.  When scientists started looking around the
world at food traditions they spotted food patterns, which in
combination provided a sound nutrition.  For example, the native
american diet in many places where farming was done was based on
beans, corn, varieties of squash and other fewer veggies and some
meat. In some places such as the astecs in mexico meat was rare as a
common food and used the corn/bean/squash combination almost
exclusively. The rice, soy bean, veggie combination with little meat
is an example in the e. asian cultural area.  These provided less
complete sources of proteins that when combined were complete and the
veggies and other such provided vital vitamin/minerals when combined.
Potatoes were part of such a combination in s. america and in the
irish case.  The potatoe is a fine source when all of it is used,
excessive carbs or any other macro source only becomes a problem if
too much of any one is used to the detriment of some vita/minerals and
other nutritional factors such as antioxs etc.; and of course the real
problem is eating too much such that calories eaten exceed the amount
of energy required for a given level of physical activity.

>I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
>carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Gabe Elias
Skinny - 09 Oct 2004 01:43 GMT
The traditional combination thing was discussed a lot several decades ago,
and good books and recipies came out. Search for "complete protein".
Perhaps Adelle Davis?

I think lentils are part of a traditional combination in India: lentils,
kidney beans, etc, served with rice. Many of their dishes include yogurt or
a yogurt drink is served with the meal. There are very spicy Indian dishes
packaged in foil in boxes by Tasty Bite etc -- I take one of those and add
plain lentils or whatever for a milder taste. The traditional spices in the
dishes are helpful for digestion and I expect nutritionally too.

> There is no single thing.  When scientists started looking around the
> world at food traditions they spotted food patterns, which in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> common food and used the corn/bean/squash combination almost
> exclusively.

Cheese is part of most traditinal Mexican dishes, may be needed to complete
the protein.

> The rice, soy bean, veggie combination with little meat
> is an example in the e. asian cultural area.  These provided less
> complete sources of proteins that when combined were complete and the
> veggies and other such provided vital vitamin/minerals when combined.
> Potatoes were part of such a combination in s. america and in the
> irish case.

What did they combine with the potatoes for complete protein?

Skinny
markd@toad-net.com - 09 Oct 2004 19:30 GMT
"Cheese is part of most traditinal Mexican dishes, may be needed to
complete
the protein."

Cows were introduced by europeans, the combination of the protein of the
beans and corn was complete.

"What did they combine with the potatoes for complete protein?"

Incans, corn - irish, grain; both very small amounts of animal protein
when available.
Skinny - 10 Oct 2004 17:11 GMT
> "Cheese is part of most traditinal Mexican dishes, may be needed to
> complete the protein."
>
> Cows were introduced by europeans, the combination of the protein of the
> beans and corn was complete.

Good point. But weren't there other domesticated animals, such as llamas,
before the European cows? Goats?

Skinny
Daniel - 10 Oct 2004 19:45 GMT
> "Cheese is part of most traditinal Mexican dishes, may be needed to
> complete
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Incans, corn - irish, grain; both very small amounts of animal protein
> when available.

Protein completing is an hoax
Legumes proteins and grains protein are complete by themselves
There's no need to combine grains with legumes
There's no need to complete or combine anything
Although the amount of some amino acids may be low on some foods they're
still adequate to human nutrition
2500 calories of only beans provide all the essential amino acids one
need without needing to complement with grains or other foods:

-----------------------------------------------------------
                (1)    (2)      (3)        (4)        (5)
                 RDA    RDA     BEANS      BEANS
Amino Acid     mg/kg  mg/70kg  mg/100g  mg/2000kcal   %RDA
Isoleucine       10     700      363       5299       757%
Leucine          14     980      656       9577       977%
Lysine           12     840      564       8234       980%
Methionine       13     910      124       1810       199% <--
Phenylalanine    14     980      444       6482       661%
Threonine         7     490      346       5051      1031%
Tryptophan      3.5     245       97       1416       578%
Valine           10     700      430       6277       897%

What these results show is that eating nothing but beans would result in
obtaining a large excess of
every essential amino acid.  In spite of the fact that beans are
_relatively_ low in methionine,
they are not _absolutely_ low in methione.  Eating nothing but beans
would still provide 2 times the
RDA of methionine.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Skinny - 10 Oct 2004 17:21 GMT
PS. I haven't compared prices much, but you might look at coconut milk as a
source of fat. It's a sauce base for many traditional Asian dishes that
combine rice, lentils, etc. Delicious, easy to cook with, comes in cans or
powdered. Perhaps cheaper in Asian import shops than supermarkets.

I use it as a soup base too. Thin like chicken broth or with pureed veg for
'cream of' soups. Take cheap vegetable parts such as stalks of broccoli or
asparagus and puree them in coconut milk and microwave, makes a wonderful
quick soup.

Or for quick drink combine half coconut milk with half V8 and add water to
thin to taste, microwave.

There used to be some health issues about what kind of fat is in coconut
milk -- but lately some 'coconut oil' supplements have come out, claiming
health benefits too.

Skinny
----------------

> The traditional combination thing was discussed a lot several decades ago,
> and good books and recipies came out. Search for "complete protein".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> plain lentils or whatever for a milder taste. The traditional spices in the
> dishes are helpful for digestion and I expect nutritionally too.
acard - 07 Oct 2004 22:09 GMT
> Well
> what I was wondering is -- is there a food out there that comes close
> to perfection nutritionally wise, something that you could take out in
> the woods and live on for a few months without problems?

Not a food, but hundreds of foods, since diversity is protective
and our proto-human ancestors and early man likely had access
to several hundred different types of wild plant foods, along with
modest quantities of animal foods, mostly invertebrates in the
earlier days. Mostly or all raw. Cooking tends to destroy the
protective phytochemicals of plant foods, and recent studies have
found that while raw vegetables are most protective for certain
types of cancers, cooked vegetables can yield a null effect.

But, if you seek the single cultivated plant food that has the
highest nutrient density (considering only vitamin and mineral
DRIS) the winner is Swiss chard. Not that you should eat it in
abundance, though, because it is also high in oxalic acid, which
will inhibit absorption of some of the minerals.

> Also, are
> potatoes good or bad?

Regular potatoes are not as protective as non-starchy vegetables
or even other starchy vegetables such as the sweet potato or
winter squash. Some nutritionists think that regular potatoes
should be excluded from the recommended 5-7 servings of
fruits/vegetables per day.

> I thought they were healthy

You could do far worse. You could also do better.

> but this low carb
> thing has really confused me.

It's an oversimplification. You shouldn't limit non-starchy
vegetables, eat as much as you can, different ones, preferrably
raw. For starchy vegetables, which are not as protective as
non-starchy ones but provide a more concentrated source of
calories, try to choose the more colorful ones. Some can be
eaten raw if shredded or grated. All diets, regardless of
macronutrient ratios, appear to be healthiest when the soluble
fiber fraction is high to very high, but this usually also means
a moderate to high total carbohydrate fraction. Depending on
how one defines high.
Darkfalz - 30 Nov 2004 08:50 GMT
> I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
> carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Gabe Elias

Some chinese believe you can exist solely on a diet of rice and chinese
broccolli.
andrewvecsey - 30 Nov 2004 23:13 GMT
Flax is not a compete "food" but according to my paper
http://geocities.com/andrewvecsey/omega3.html
it is vital for optimal health.
regards
andrew vecsey
> > I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
> > carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Some chinese believe you can exist solely on a diet of rice and chinese
> broccolli.
johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com - 02 Dec 2004 16:03 GMT
I would agree that Flax is a perfect food.

I would also add almonds and hot oatmeal to the list.

I grow up on eating whole potatoes.  Whole potatoes was the third
vegetable in my house.  And, our entire family was skinny.

Google has changed their newsgroup interface today.  And, so far it
really sucks!  This post may end up looking like s..t!
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
andrewvecsey - 03 Dec 2004 11:02 GMT
According to the glycemic concept, potatoes should be avoided if you
want to lose weight
> I would agree that Flax is a perfect food.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Google has changed their newsgroup interface today.  And, so far it
> really sucks!  This post may end up looking like s..t!
N-H-P - 03 Dec 2004 15:07 GMT
> According to the glycemic concept, potatoes should be avoided if you
> want to lose weight
>
> > I grow up on eating whole potatoes.  Whole potatoes was the third
> > vegetable in my house.  And, our entire family was skinny.

That is why I wrote about growing up on potatoes.

I grew up skinny. And, I'm still skinny.

But, notice how I specified "whole" potatoes?
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
William_Noyes - 02 Dec 2004 08:41 GMT
> > I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
> > carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Some chinese believe you can exist solely on a diet of rice and chinese
> broccolli.

And some due to living on local diet deficient in iodine are not
the bright bulbs in the night of life.
tcomeau - 02 Dec 2004 20:12 GMT
> > I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
> > carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Some chinese believe you can exist solely on a diet of rice and chinese
> broccolli.

The Canadian Coureurs de Bois, who opened up the vast Canadian
interior by canoe, ate pemmican and it sustained them for months on
end. It is a mixture of dried pounded buffalo meat and fat (or beef)
with dried pounded berries.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/notukeu/pemmican_e.htm

TC
andrewvecsey@hotmail.com - 06 Dec 2004 11:01 GMT
Hi Gabe.
For survival I would suggest that meats and fish would give you
everything your body needs to survive. And to reuse the minerals I
would drink my own urine.

But to be health long term, meat is too powerfull for our health. It is
like a fire you need for survival. The best fastest and easiest is
kindling, but on a long term, it is better to use branches.
I wrote a paper listing some of the sources of foods from the USDA 15
foods data base which are the richest sources for each each of the
essential  nutrients that our body has to get from food. Most of the
food sources are plants that grow world wide and which have been used
for centuries.

Meats and fish on top of this food pyramid are the most complete
sources as they are the most concentrated. Because of this they contain
too much of the types of fats that are harmfull in too large amounts
because they make us too fat to remain healthy.

Eggs and milk, are one level lower and being produced by meat bearing
animals are very complete and more healthy. Butter and cheese are
concentrates of milk.

Seeds are in the middle of the pyramid and feed the animals that
produce the meats. They produce less of the harmfull fats and more of
the necessary essential ones.

Vegetables and fruit are one level lower and one level healthier.

Herbs and spices (leaves) that produce the vegetables and fruits are on
the bottom of this pyrimid. Different plants offer different nutrients
so it is important to have a wide variety for completeness.

For long term survival and health I would base my nutrition on mainly
plants and their fruits and seeds. I would try to find birds and their
eggs to eat. It would be nice to have a goat, not to eat, but to keep
for milk and cheese. I would learn and occasionally go fishing and
hunting. And I would drink my own urine.
use as wide variety of foods available as possible and would try to
The more varied
You can read this paper at
http://www.geocities.com/andrewvecsey/optimalhealth.html
regards
andrew vecsey

> I'm pretty much broke all the time and I try to get enough protein and
> carbs thru veggies and grains (and meat every once and a while). Well
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Gabe Elias
andrewvecsey@hotmail.com - 13 Dec 2004 15:08 GMT
Your question aroused my interest and i wrote a paper dealing with it.

http://geocities.com/andrewvecsey/optimalhealth.html
Abstract:

Optimal health is defined. Suggestions are presented as to how it can
be reached despite the many obstacles to it that must be overcome. The
presently known essential nutrients are listed with foods that are rich
in these nutrients. Correcting diet deficiencies using these foods is
highlighted. Analogy comparing the biological functioning of our body
to the functioning of machines and communities are presented. They are
used for building an understanding and appreciation of the important
factors that hinder or help us in attaining and maintaining optimal
health. Part 1 deals with general health concerns. Part 2 introduces
molasses, yeast, cod liver oil, flax, and wheat bran as foods that can
replenish the depleted nutrients in foods caused by processing. Options
using commercial meal replacement products and multi vitamin /mineral
capsules are compared. Part 3 deals with symptoms of deficiencies and
choosing the right foods to cover these deficiencies.
regards
andrew vecsey
 
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