Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / September 2004
Cretan diet - can we make it even better?
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Jan - 24 Sep 2004 08:38 GMT As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the healthiest prototype of it, the next question is obviously: Can we make it even better? Or is the only task left to try to define the Cretan diet as well as possible?
I think that there are some possibilities to make the Cretan diet even better. On could start e.g. by replacing the Greek coffee by green tea. In northern latitudes it would also make sense to add some high-flavonoid berries to the diet. The Greeks also use white sugar in the Greek coffee. That could be replaced by the use of raw cane sugar if one wants to insist in using little sugar. The Japanese use sea vegetables and this feature could be adapted from the Japanese diet. Also there are some benefits in the spices used in Asia, just to mention turmeric and ginger.
Jan
tcomeau - 24 Sep 2004 22:18 GMT > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the > healthiest prototype of it, the next question is obviously: Can we make > it even better? Or is the only task left to try to define the Cretan > diet as well as possible? All that work is done already. Just do a search on "Weston Price".
TC
Jan - 25 Sep 2004 12:28 GMT > > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean > > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > All that work is done already. Just do a search on "Weston Price". I think that the diet proposed in those pages deviates from the _traditional_ Cretan diet in the more abundant use of red meat and saturated fat. Could you tell me in your own words (1) Why you think it is healthy or important to eat red meat in addition to legumes, fish and nuts? And (2) Why is it important to eat saturated fat in addition to monounsaturated fats? What are the health benefits?
I am asking these questions because I want to understand your viewpoint.
Jan
Wolfbrother - 25 Sep 2004 05:33 GMT > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Jan The mediterranean diet: just what are realities and fictions
Should help get a better understanding of aspects of the Mediterranean diet and its history as well as just how much damage one misguided misinformed biased ideological man can do in the world. The actions of Ancel Keys border on criminality in his willful and stubborn ignorance and disregard for reality. When one digs deep and all the facts are known, the distortions are obvious and it is clear that his extreme incompetence is staggering and hard to comprehend.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/the_mediterranean_diet.html
http://www.divineonline.com.au/DivineReadingNews.cfm?news=402
kadill - 25 Sep 2004 16:59 GMT >
> The mediterranean diet: just what are realities and fictions > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.divineonline.com.au/DivineReadingNews.cfm?news=402 Having had the opportunity to both travel extensively through out the Italian and Spanish coasts, as well as live with family in the calabria (the foot of the boot) region of Italy I have seen examples of both the diets observed by Keys and those mentioned on the Weston price site in the link above. The diets that resemble Key's observations tend to be more indicative of the poorer more rural areas, while the more succulent diets tend to be more prevalent in the more urban and/or affluent areas. Even then, in the more affluent areas the daily diet is more moderate and the weekend family dinners are more filled with meats and fats and such.
I think the biggest part of the Med Diet that is being over looked is portion control. Even when they are eating the higher fat meals, they are not gluttonous about it.
In my family's meals, bread and pasta were daily occurrences, as were wine, cheese, olive oil, vegetables in abundance as well as fruit and beans on most days, and small amounts of meat. Meat was very expensive and while it may have been eaten frequently, it was not eaten in great quantity. Dishes with large amounts of butter and cream were generally reserved for Sunday family dinners, and eaten in small portions by American standards.
cde - 25 Sep 2004 15:20 GMT > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think that there are some possibilities to make the Cretan diet even > better. I agree. It is a tremendous improvement compared to SAD but that is not to say it is the healthiest way to go. One could replace the refined grains with whole grains or vegetables and fruits, a good part of the MUFA with vegetables and fruits, and a good part of the full-fat dairy with vegetables and fruits and likely have yet lower risks for most types of cancers and CHD, due to an increased exposure to a very wide spectrum of protective phytochemicals and soluble fibers with decreased exposure to fat-soluble and persistent toxics that bioaccumulate in successive trophic levels of the food chain. It would be a more primitive style of eating, more Myocene than Paleo.
I tried to follow the Simopoulos-described implementation of the Cretan Med diet (Nutr. 131:3065S-3073S, November 2001,The Mediterranean Diets: What Is So Special about the Diet of Greece? The Scientific Evidence) when I made this comparison chart of Cretan Med vs improvements. There is a picture at the bottom for those who wish to be spared the details:
http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html
Jan - 25 Sep 2004 22:54 GMT > > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean > > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html That was really interesting to see. I would like to make one question: It was mentioned in the Vegetarian Nutrition by Joan Sabaté that it is probable that alcohol doesn't offer much extra protection for vegetarians. If one eats according to your Super Healthy Improvement Diet, as I would call it, do you think that alcohol would still give some additional protection or could you just replace red wine with red grapes and get an equal healthy effect? Jan
cde - 26 Sep 2004 00:34 GMT It was mentioned in the Vegetarian
> Nutrition by Joan Sabaté that it is probable that alcohol doesn't > offer much extra protection for vegetarians. If one eats according to > your Super Healthy Improvement Diet, as I would call it, do you think > that alcohol would still give some additional protection or could you > just replace red wine with red grapes and get an equal healthy effect? I am not sure, but it seems to me that the moderate ethanol component in itself provides some protection, and there may be a synergistic benefit when combined with grape and other polyphenols, but we lack the final word because of limited data on stability, uptake, bioavailability, etc. [Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2002 Dec 21;146(51):2466-9.]
One study concludes: "The absorption of these three polyphenols trans-resveratrol, [+]-catechin and quercetin) is broadly equivalent in aqueous and alcoholic matrices but, at peak concentrations of 10 to 40 nmol/L, is inadequate to permit circulating concentrations of 5 to 100 micromol/L consistent with in vitro biologic activity. The voluminous literature reporting powerful in vitro anticancer and antiinflammatory effects of the free polyphenols is irrelevant, given that they are absorbed as conjugates." [Clin Biochem. 2003 Feb;36(1):79-87].
Another: "The failure of red wines (which have a 20-fold excess of polyphenols over white wines) to show any advantage suggests that, in vivo, ethanol is the dominant anti-aggregatory component in these beverages which are more potent than grape juices in preventing platelet aggregation in humans." [Clin Chim Acta. 1996 Mar 15;246(1-2):163-82.]
And a third: "The beneficial effects of red wine could be related to both the alcohol and antioxidant activities of red wine polyphenols. However, it is not clear whether the alcohol component is important and the results of intervention trials are conflicting." [Med Hypotheses. 2002 Jul;59(1):101-4. ]
Whether or not the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption would be additive in combination with a very high raw veg/fruit/protective phytochemical diet is not known to me, but my guess is that it is probably not necessary but also probably would not hurt.
Wine polyphenols and promotion of cardiac health Nutrition Research Reviews June 2004, vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 111-130(20) Thurnham D.I; Cooper K.A.; Chopra i.
"The present review concludes that red wine polyphenols have little effect on plasma lipid concentrations but wine consumption appears to reduce the susceptibility of LDL to oxidation and increase serum antioxidant capacity. However, these effects do depend on the amount of wine and period of supplementation. Authors who have examined specific polyphenols suggest that some phenolics appear to have endothelium-dependent vaso-relaxing abilities and some a positive effect on NO concentrations. Red wine phenolics also have an inhibitory effect on platelet aggregation, and individual phenolics also have a similar effect in vitro, although it should be noted that there are often discrepancies as large as ten-fold between the concentrations of polyphenolics tested in vitro and their measured levels in vivo. Evidence suggests that alcohol has a positive synergistic effect with wine polyphenols on some atherosclerotic risk factors. Thus evidence that wine drinking is beneficial for cardiac health continues to accumulate but more research is required to understand fully and exactly the functions of red wine polyphenols."
Jan - 26 Sep 2004 20:36 GMT > I tried to follow the Simopoulos-described implementation > of the Cretan Med diet (Nutr. 131:3065S-3073S, November [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make fresh soups?
Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet?
Jan
cde - 26 Sep 2004 21:06 GMT > Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do > you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make > fresh soups? Grind the nuts/seeds and mix with fruit or lemon juice or vinegar for dressings with herbs/spices to taste. I actually use a little olive oil, about 5 g mixed with 15 g red wine vinegar and/or lemon juice and nonsweet fruit (tomato, cucumber), herbs, spices, and garlic, for my salads.
Alternate small fruit salads with large green salads throughout the day. The nuts/seeds can be ground and/or blended with water to make dressings for the fruit salad. A typical combination could be blackberries, strawberries, orange or grapefruit, apple, melon, peach, grapes. The more variety, the better it tastes.
Green salads are really delicious when a wide variety of greens and other colors are used, romaine, arugula, escarole, chicory, red or green leaf lettuce, kale, collards, broccoli, cauliflower, tomato, yellow or green summer squash, bell and other peppers of various colors, sprouts, scallion, onion, radicchio, spinach, chard, beet greens, grated carrot or sweet potato, legumes, cucumber, etc.
This is more fun than meals of only a few components but also more expensive and more time consuming to prepare.
> Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and > algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet? I don't know about the nutritional composition of barley grass and if it has more to offer than most of the common produce greens. One could juice a portion of the greens, probably no harm done if fiber intake is still high. The green tea and algae could be improvements that contribute minimal calories.
Jan - 26 Sep 2004 21:52 GMT > > Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do > > you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > juice and nonsweet fruit (tomato, cucumber), herbs, spices, and garlic, > for my salads. Yes, I have done this also. Especially tahini (ground sesame seeds) is a very good base for salad dressings.
> Alternate small fruit salads with large green salads throughout the > day. The nuts/seeds can be ground and/or blended with water to make > dressings for the fruit salad. This is done in the Living food diet also.
> > Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and > > algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet? > > I don't know about the nutritional composition of barley grass and > if it has more to offer than most of the common produce > greens. I think it has. It has especially high amount of SOD, superoxide dismutase, which is said to be a group of very powerful antioxidant enzymes fighting free radicals and degenerative changes. I tried to find the composition of the fresh barley grass but found only plenty of sites about the dried barley juice powder.
Jan
Matti Narkia - 26 Sep 2004 23:40 GMT Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article
>> As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean >> diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html Are you sure your nutrient analysis is correct? It shows 104000 IU of vitamin A, which is very high and could possibly cause toxicity. Still, I wasn't able to pinpoint any particular ingredient with especially high vitamin A content.
A couple of other points to ponder:
- Carbohydrates have gone up from Cretan 212 g to 308 g. - Sugars have gone up from 68 g to 140 g, perhaps not so good. - Fat % down from 37 % to 23 %. I'm not sure, if that's so good either. - Vitamin D down from 730 IU to 418 IU.
Most of the other changes seem to be improvements.
 Signature Matti Narkia
Jan - 27 Sep 2004 06:57 GMT > Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > wasn't able to pinpoint any particular ingredient with especially high > vitamin A content. I think that the nutrional analysis are correct. Carrots and sweet potato are especially high in in beta-carotene, also the greens are high in beta-carotene. As far as I know there is no risk in getting this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to retinols according its needs.
Jan
Matti Narkia - 27 Sep 2004 12:35 GMT 26 Sep 2004 22:57:26 -0700 in article <1096264646.066897.200480@k17g2000odb.googlegroups.com> "Jan" <shantigiri@luukku.com> wrote:
>> Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to >retinols according its needs. Although beta-carotene can be converted to vitamin A (as needed, all of it will not be converted, if a large amount is consumed) it is _not_ vitamin A and should _not_ be counted as vitamin A in nutrient analysis.
 Signature Matti Narkia
Jan - 27 Sep 2004 13:07 GMT > 26 Sep 2004 22:57:26 -0700 in article > <1096264646.066897.200480@k17g2000odb.googlegroups.com>
> >I think that the nutrional analysis are correct. Carrots and sweet > >potato are especially high in in beta-carotene, also the greens are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will not be converted, if a large amount is consumed) it is _not_ vitamin A > and should _not_ be counted as vitamin A in nutrient analysis. I am aware of that. But still it is often done. :-)
Jan
cde - 27 Sep 2004 15:30 GMT >>Are you sure your nutrient analysis is correct? It shows 104000 IU of >>vitamin A, which is very high and could possibly cause toxicity. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to > retinols according its needs. The analysis is from SR 17 and other sources at nutritiondata.com.
It's pretty safe, but some people might get a tint to their skin. Carotenemia caused by high beta-carotene intake does not have serious sequelae. [Cutis. 2003 Jun;71(6):441-2, 448.] Many Asian peasant populations are known to derive the greatest proportion of their calories from the sweet potato; they are known for their longevity.
Some other possible concerns might be oxalic acid content ( mostly the spinach, chard, beet greens) a concern for stone-formers, probably not a concern for others when a wide variety of low-oxalate vegetables are also consumed) and excessive cruciferous vegetable consumption (possibly antithyroid). The composite family (lettuces, dandelion) seem to be safest in large quantity. A 20% lettuce diet appears to have many benefits for the rat with no apparent problems. [Clin Nutr. 2004 Aug;23(4):605-14.]
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