Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / September 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Cretan diet - can we make it even better?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Jan - 24 Sep 2004 08:38 GMT
As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
healthiest prototype of it, the next question is obviously: Can we make
it even better? Or is the only task left to try to define the Cretan
diet as well as possible?

I think that there are some possibilities to make the Cretan diet even
better. On could start e.g. by replacing the Greek coffee by green tea.
In northern latitudes it would also make sense to add some
high-flavonoid berries to the diet. The Greeks also use white sugar in
the Greek coffee. That could be replaced by the use of raw cane sugar
if one wants to insist in using little sugar. The Japanese use sea
vegetables and this feature could be adapted from the Japanese diet.
Also there are some benefits in the spices used in Asia, just to
mention turmeric and ginger.

Jan
tcomeau - 24 Sep 2004 22:18 GMT
> As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
> diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
> healthiest prototype of it, the next question is obviously: Can we make
> it even better? Or is the only task left to try to define the Cretan
> diet as well as possible?

All that work is done already. Just do a search on "Weston Price".

TC
Jan - 25 Sep 2004 12:28 GMT
> > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
> > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> All that work is done already. Just do a search on "Weston Price".

I think that the diet proposed in those pages deviates from the
_traditional_ Cretan diet in the more abundant use of red meat and
saturated fat. Could you tell me in your own words
(1) Why you think it is healthy or important to eat red meat in
addition to legumes, fish and nuts? And
(2) Why is it important to eat saturated fat in addition to
monounsaturated fats? What are the health benefits?

I am asking these questions because I want to understand your
viewpoint.

Jan
Wolfbrother - 25 Sep 2004 05:33 GMT
> As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
> diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Jan

The mediterranean diet:  just what are realities and fictions

Should help get a better understanding  of aspects of the
Mediterranean diet and its history as well as just how much damage one
misguided misinformed biased ideological man can do in the world.  The
actions of Ancel Keys border on criminality in his willful and
stubborn ignorance and disregard for reality.  When one digs deep and
all the facts are known, the distortions are obvious and it is clear
that his extreme incompetence is staggering and hard to comprehend.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/the_mediterranean_diet.html

http://www.divineonline.com.au/DivineReadingNews.cfm?news=402
kadill - 25 Sep 2004 16:59 GMT
 >
> The mediterranean diet:  just what are realities and fictions
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://www.divineonline.com.au/DivineReadingNews.cfm?news=402

Having had the opportunity to both travel extensively through out the
Italian and Spanish coasts, as well as live with family in the calabria
(the foot of the boot) region of Italy I have seen examples of both the
diets observed by Keys and those mentioned on the Weston price site in
the link above.  The diets that resemble Key's observations tend to be
more indicative of the poorer more rural areas, while the more succulent
diets tend to be more prevalent in the more urban and/or affluent areas.
 Even then, in the more affluent areas the daily diet is more moderate
and  the weekend family dinners are more filled with meats and fats and
such.

I think the biggest part of the Med Diet that is being over looked is
portion control.  Even when they are eating the higher fat meals, they
are not gluttonous about it.

In my family's meals, bread and pasta were daily occurrences, as were
wine, cheese, olive oil, vegetables in abundance as well as fruit and
beans on most days, and small amounts of meat.  Meat was very expensive
and while it may have been eaten frequently, it was not eaten in great
quantity.  Dishes with large amounts of butter and cream were generally
reserved for Sunday family dinners, and eaten in small portions by
American standards.
cde - 25 Sep 2004 15:20 GMT
> As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
> diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I think that there are some possibilities to make the Cretan diet even
> better.

I agree. It is a tremendous improvement compared to SAD
but that is not to say it is the healthiest way to go.
One could replace the refined grains with whole grains
or vegetables and fruits, a good part of the MUFA with
vegetables and fruits, and a good part of the full-fat
dairy with vegetables and fruits and likely have yet
lower risks for most types of cancers and CHD, due to
an increased exposure to a very wide spectrum of protective
phytochemicals and soluble fibers with decreased exposure
to fat-soluble and persistent toxics that bioaccumulate in
successive trophic levels of the food chain. It would be a
more primitive style of eating, more Myocene than Paleo.

I tried to follow the Simopoulos-described implementation
of the Cretan Med diet (Nutr. 131:3065S-3073S, November
2001,The Mediterranean Diets: What Is So Special about the
Diet of Greece? The Scientific Evidence) when I made
this comparison chart of Cretan Med vs improvements. There
is a picture at the bottom for those who wish to be spared
the details:

http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html
Jan - 25 Sep 2004 22:54 GMT
> > As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
> > diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html

That was really interesting to see.
I would like to make one question: It was mentioned in the Vegetarian
Nutrition by Joan Sabaté that it is probable that alcohol doesn't
offer much extra protection for vegetarians. If one eats according to
your Super Healthy Improvement Diet, as I would call it, do you think
that alcohol would still give some additional protection or could you
just replace red wine with red grapes and get an equal healthy effect?
Jan
cde - 26 Sep 2004 00:34 GMT
 It was mentioned in the Vegetarian
> Nutrition by Joan Sabaté that it is probable that alcohol doesn't
> offer much extra protection for vegetarians. If one eats according to
> your Super Healthy Improvement Diet, as I would call it, do you think
> that alcohol would still give some additional protection or could you
> just replace red wine with red grapes and get an equal healthy effect?

I am not sure, but it seems to me that the moderate ethanol
component in itself provides some protection, and there may
be a synergistic benefit when combined with grape and other
polyphenols, but we lack the final word because of limited
data on stability, uptake, bioavailability, etc. [Ned Tijdschr
Geneeskd. 2002 Dec 21;146(51):2466-9.]

One study concludes:
"The absorption of these three polyphenols trans-resveratrol,
[+]-catechin and quercetin) is broadly equivalent in aqueous
and alcoholic matrices but, at peak concentrations of 10 to
40 nmol/L, is inadequate to permit circulating concentrations
of 5 to 100 micromol/L consistent with in vitro biologic activity.
The voluminous literature reporting powerful in vitro anticancer
and antiinflammatory effects of the free polyphenols is irrelevant,
given that they are absorbed as conjugates."
[Clin Biochem.  2003 Feb;36(1):79-87].

Another:
"The failure of red wines (which have a 20-fold excess of
polyphenols over white wines) to show any advantage suggests
that, in vivo, ethanol is the dominant anti-aggregatory component
in these beverages which are more potent than grape juices in
preventing platelet aggregation in humans."
[Clin Chim Acta.  1996 Mar 15;246(1-2):163-82.]

And a third:
"The beneficial effects of red wine  could be related to both the
alcohol and antioxidant  activities of red wine polyphenols. However,
it is not clear  whether the alcohol component is important and the
results of intervention trials are conflicting."
[Med Hypotheses. 2002 Jul;59(1):101-4. ]

Whether or  not the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption would be
additive  in combination with a  very high raw veg/fruit/protective
phytochemical diet is not  known to me, but my guess is that it is
probably not necessary but also probably would not hurt.

Wine polyphenols and promotion of cardiac health
Nutrition Research Reviews   June 2004, vol. 17, no. 1,
pp. 111-130(20)
Thurnham D.I; Cooper K.A.; Chopra i.

"The present review concludes that red wine polyphenols have
little effect on plasma lipid concentrations but wine
consumption appears to reduce the susceptibility of LDL to
oxidation and increase serum antioxidant capacity. However,
these effects do depend on the amount of wine and period of
supplementation. Authors who have examined specific
polyphenols suggest that some phenolics appear to have
endothelium-dependent vaso-relaxing abilities and some a
positive effect on NO concentrations. Red wine phenolics
also have an inhibitory effect on platelet aggregation, and
individual phenolics also have a similar effect in vitro,
although it should be noted that there are often
discrepancies as large as ten-fold between the
concentrations of polyphenolics tested in vitro and their
measured levels in vivo. Evidence suggests that alcohol has
a positive synergistic effect with wine polyphenols on some
atherosclerotic risk factors. Thus evidence that wine
drinking is beneficial for cardiac health continues to
accumulate but more research is required to understand fully
and exactly the functions of red wine polyphenols."
Jan - 26 Sep 2004 20:36 GMT
> I tried to follow the Simopoulos-described implementation
> of the Cretan Med diet (Nutr. 131:3065S-3073S, November
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html

Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do
you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make
fresh soups?

Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and
algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet?

Jan
cde - 26 Sep 2004 21:06 GMT
> Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do
> you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make
> fresh soups?

Grind the nuts/seeds and mix with fruit or lemon juice or vinegar
for dressings with herbs/spices to taste. I actually use a little
olive oil, about 5 g mixed with 15 g red wine vinegar and/or lemon
juice and nonsweet fruit (tomato, cucumber), herbs, spices, and garlic,
for my salads.

Alternate small fruit salads with large green salads throughout the
day. The nuts/seeds can be ground and/or blended with water to make
dressings for the fruit salad. A typical combination could be
blackberries, strawberries, orange or grapefruit, apple, melon,
peach, grapes. The more variety, the better it tastes.

Green salads are really delicious when a wide variety of greens
and other colors are used, romaine, arugula, escarole, chicory,
red or green leaf lettuce, kale, collards, broccoli, cauliflower,
tomato, yellow or green summer squash, bell and other peppers of
various colors, sprouts, scallion, onion, radicchio, spinach,
chard, beet greens, grated carrot or sweet potato, legumes,
cucumber, etc.

This is more fun than meals of only a few components but also more
expensive and more time consuming to prepare.

> Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and
> algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet?

I don't know about the nutritional composition of barley grass and
if it has more to offer than most of the common produce
greens. One could juice a portion of the greens, probably no
harm done if fiber intake is still high. The green tea and algae
could be improvements that contribute minimal calories.
Jan - 26 Sep 2004 21:52 GMT
> > Nutritionally this is excellent, but how do you make this palatable? Do
> > you make some kind of salad dressing or do you use a blender to make
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> juice and nonsweet fruit (tomato, cucumber), herbs, spices, and garlic,
> for my salads.

Yes, I have done this also. Especially tahini (ground sesame seeds) is
a very good base for salad dressings.

> Alternate small fruit salads with large green salads throughout the
> day. The nuts/seeds can be ground and/or blended with water to make
> dressings for the fruit salad.

This is done in the Living food diet also.

> > Would it be any improvement to add barley grass juice, green tea and
> > algae (like nori, wakame and chlorella) to your improvement diet?
>
> I don't know about the nutritional composition of barley grass and
> if it has more to offer than most of the common produce
> greens.

I think it has. It has especially high amount of SOD, superoxide
dismutase, which is said to be a group of very powerful antioxidant
enzymes fighting free radicals and degenerative changes. I tried to
find the composition of the fresh barley grass but found only plenty of
sites about the dried barley juice powder.

Jan
Matti Narkia - 26 Sep 2004 23:40 GMT
Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article

>> As there is a quite large consensus that the traditional Mediterranean
>> diet is very healthy and the traditional Cretan diet is probably the
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/med.html

Are you sure your nutrient analysis is correct? It shows 104000 IU of
vitamin A, which is very high and could possibly cause toxicity. Still, I
wasn't able to pinpoint any particular ingredient with especially high
vitamin A content.

A couple of other points to ponder:

- Carbohydrates have gone up from Cretan 212 g to 308 g.
- Sugars have gone up from 68 g to 140 g, perhaps not so good.
- Fat % down from 37 % to 23 %. I'm not sure, if that's so good either.
- Vitamin D down from 730 IU to 418 IU.

Most of the other changes seem to be improvements.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Jan - 27 Sep 2004 06:57 GMT
> Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> wasn't able to pinpoint any particular ingredient with especially high
> vitamin A content.

I think that the nutrional analysis are correct. Carrots and sweet
potato are especially high in in beta-carotene, also the greens are
high in beta-carotene. As far as I know there is no risk in getting
this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to
retinols according its needs.

Jan
Matti Narkia - 27 Sep 2004 12:35 GMT
26 Sep 2004 22:57:26 -0700 in article
<1096264646.066897.200480@k17g2000odb.googlegroups.com> "Jan"
<shantigiri@luukku.com> wrote:

>> Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:20:10 GMT in article
>>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to
>retinols according its needs.

Although beta-carotene can be converted to vitamin A (as needed, all of it
will not be converted, if a large amount is consumed) it is _not_ vitamin A
and should _not_ be counted as vitamin A in nutrient analysis.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Jan - 27 Sep 2004 13:07 GMT
> 26 Sep 2004 22:57:26 -0700 in article
> <1096264646.066897.200480@k17g2000odb.googlegroups.com>

> >I think that the nutrional analysis are correct. Carrots and sweet
> >potato are especially high in in beta-carotene, also the greens are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> will not be converted, if a large amount is consumed) it is _not_ vitamin A
> and should _not_ be counted as vitamin A in nutrient analysis.
I am aware of that. But still it is often done. :-)

Jan
cde - 27 Sep 2004 15:30 GMT
>>Are you sure your nutrient analysis is correct? It shows 104000 IU of
>>vitamin A, which is very high and could possibly cause toxicity.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> this much beta-carotene because the body converts beta-carotene to
> retinols according its needs.

The analysis is from SR 17 and other sources at nutritiondata.com.

It's pretty safe, but some people might get a tint to their skin.
Carotenemia caused by high beta-carotene intake does not have serious
sequelae. [Cutis. 2003 Jun;71(6):441-2, 448.] Many Asian peasant
populations are known to derive the greatest proportion of their
calories from the sweet potato; they are known for their longevity.

Some other possible concerns might be oxalic acid content ( mostly
the spinach, chard, beet greens) a concern for stone-formers, probably not a
concern for others when a wide variety of low-oxalate vegetables are also
consumed) and excessive cruciferous  vegetable consumption (possibly
antithyroid). The composite family (lettuces, dandelion) seem to be
safest in large quantity. A 20% lettuce diet appears to have many
benefits for the rat with no apparent problems. [Clin Nutr. 2004 Aug;23(4):605-14.]
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.