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Mirek Fidler - 17 Sep 2004 09:35 GMT

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2004_sept16.html

Mirek

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Jan - 17 Sep 2004 21:36 GMT

> http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2004_sept16.html
>
> Mirek

Interesting posting. Traditionally the diet in the Eastern European
countries have been quite poor. The intake of flavonoids, carotenoids
and other antioxidants has been very low because people consume so
little fresh vegetables, fruits and wine. Also the diet has been very
limited in variety. I have been to Russia and I have seen what people
eat. High smoking rates might also be one cause. In the Seven Countries
Study the flavonoid intake explained about 25% of the heart disease
variation.

Jan

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Mirek Fidler - 17 Sep 2004 21:59 GMT

> Interesting posting. Traditionally the diet in the Eastern European
> countries have been quite poor. The intake of flavonoids, carotenoids
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Study the flavonoid intake explained about 25% of the heart disease
> variation.

Well, I would be a little bit more cautios about anything "explaining"
heart disease :)

Mirek

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Jan - 18 Sep 2004 06:53 GMT

> > Interesting posting. Traditionally the diet in the Eastern European
> > countries have been quite poor. The intake of flavonoids, carotenoids
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Well, I would be a little bit more cautios about anything "explaining"
> heart disease :)

Well, it was not originally my expression. Just look at this article:

Hertog MG, Kromhout D, Aravanis C, Blackburn H, Buzina R, Fidanza F,
Giampaoli S, Jansen A, Menotti A, Nedeljkovic S, et al. Flavonoid
intake and long-term risk of coronary heart disease and cancer in the
seven countries study. Arch Intern Med. 1995 Feb 27;155(4):381-6. PMID:
7848021

"Average intake of antioxidant flavonoids was inversely associated with
mortality from coronary heart disease and explained about 25% of the
variance in coronary heart disease rates in the 16 cohorts."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed
&list_uids=7848021&dopt=Abstract
Jan

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Jan - 18 Sep 2004 09:27 GMT

> "Average intake of antioxidant flavonoids was inversely associated with
> mortality from coronary heart disease and explained about 25% of the
> variance in coronary heart disease rates in the 16 cohorts."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed
&list_uids=7848021&dopt=Abstract

Also the high alcohol consumption is suspected to correlate with the
high heart disease mortality in Russia.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/2/346

And the russians drink vodka, not wine. So they are devoid of the
protective flavonoids in wine.

Jan

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Jan - 18 Sep 2004 09:59 GMT

> And the russians drink vodka, not wine. So they are devoid of the
> protective flavonoids in wine.

This site of Pravda tells how little Russian drink wine.
http://english.pravda.ru/society/2001/10/18/18543.html

Jan

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Mirek Fidler - 18 Sep 2004 10:34 GMT

> > > Interesting posting. Traditionally the diet in the Eastern European
> > > countries have been quite poor. The intake of flavonoids,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Well, it was not originally my expression. Just look at this article:

Come on, I just wanted to point out that making any conclusions is har.
Personally I do believe in antioxidants too. But I have so far have read
too many studies associating disease with this or that, that I am very
sceptical :)

It is very easy to to find your favorite topic in nutrition (like
flavonoids, or processed carbs, or vegetable oils, or whatever) and
google NET to find supporting studies...

Mirek

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Jan - 18 Sep 2004 10:46 GMT

> Come on, I just wanted to point out that making any conclusions is har.
> Personally I do believe in antioxidants too. But I have so far have read
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> flavonoids, or processed carbs, or vegetable oils, or whatever) and
> google NET to find supporting studies...

It is good to be sceptical to some extent, but there is a *large* body
of evidence which shows that high intake of vegetables and fruit and
moderate wine and consumption (plus some fish) is inversely correlated
with heart disease. It is not one or two studies that show this. You
know that, too. :)

Jan

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Mirek Fidler - 18 Sep 2004 14:09 GMT

> > flavonoids, or processed carbs, or vegetable oils, or whatever) and
> > google NET to find supporting studies...
>
> with heart disease. It is not one or two studies that show this. You

Even to find a lot of supporting studies :)

Mirek

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Jan - 18 Sep 2004 18:09 GMT

> > > flavonoids, or processed carbs, or vegetable oils, or whatever) and
> > > google NET to find supporting studies...
> >
> > with heart disease. It is not one or two studies that show this. You
>
> Even to find a lot of supporting studies :)

If a mountain of evidence is not enough beware of creeping
wolfbrotherism! :-)

Jan

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Mirek Fidler - 18 Sep 2004 21:53 GMT

> > Even to find a lot of supporting studies :)
>
> If a mountain of evidence is not enough beware of creeping
> wolfbrotherism! :-)

Well, I am afraid that wolfbrother has his own pile of evidence... ;)

Mirek

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Jan - 20 Sep 2004 06:22 GMT

> > > Even to find a lot of supporting studies :)
> >
> > If a mountain of evidence is not enough beware of creeping
> > wolfbrotherism! :-)
>
> Well, I am afraid that wolfbrother has his own pile of evidence... ;)

So, is it easy for you to find a number of studies which would show
that eating plenty of vegetables and fruits do not have any health
benefit? As you enjoy paradoxes, I would like to encourage you to look
for this kind of paradoxes.

Jan

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Wolfbrother - 17 Sep 2004 23:06 GMT

> http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2004_sept16.html
>
> Mirek

Heh yeah this is nothing new of course but will we ever see it on the
mainstream media no matter how true it is?? No matter that this is
reality vs. the fiction of the lipid hypothesis/cholesterol theory.
Instead we hear that we need MORE AGGRESSIVE cholesterol lowering than
ever!! People need to understand that the SIGNIFICANCE or merit of
certain medical knowledge is not what gets it promoted to the public.
If that was true we would be hearing about things like this and more.
Instead we hear false information. The issue that gets information
promoted to the public is whether or not it will benefit industry.
The issue that insures information is not promoted to the public is if
it will harm the interests of industry. This is so simply because the
obscene consolidation of wealth and power has insured that industry
alone is in control of the means to communicate with the public. That
being the media, advertising, and the government. This aspect is
totally independent of the fact that industry is also largely in
control of medical research. However because it can not be 100% in
control it relies on its ability to over publicize the false
information it creates to an extreme degree while at the same time
blocking/discrediting truthful research and information which escapes
its control. This is not a difficult concept to grasp and it has been
going on for decades beginning with the massive campaign to promote
the cholesterol theory and promote fake industry made fats while
demonizing healthy animal fats. Yet so many people have their heads
in the sand. What is going on today in modern medicine is nothing
less than GENOCIDAL PROFITEERING. It makes Hitler look like Jesus.

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Mirek Fidler - 17 Sep 2004 23:29 GMT

> > http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2004_sept16.html
> >
> > Mirek
>
> Heh yeah this is nothing new of course but will we ever see it on the

MONICA data are new. And put together to single graph they look nice :)

Mirek

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