Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2004
Healthcare - US vs World - We're number 20 - yee haaaa
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tcomeau - 26 Aug 2004 15:50 GMT Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 Country Life Expectancy Country Infant mortality Japan 81 Sweden 2.8 Australia 80.3 Japan 3.3 Sweden 80.3 Finland 3.6 Switzerland 80.3 Norway 3.7 Canada 80 Czech Republic 4 Italy 79.5 Germany 4.2 France 79.4 France 4.3 Spain 79.4 Switzerland 4.4 Israel 79.2 Spain 4.5 Norway 79.2 Denmark 4.6 Austria 78.9 Austria 4.7 Greece 78.9 Australia 4.8 Germany 78.5 Canada 4.8 New Zealand 78.5 Portugal 5.1 United Kingdom 78.3 United Kingdom 5.2 Finland 78.2 Ireland 5.5 Cyprus 77.5 Greece 5.6 Denmark 77.4 New Zealand 6 Ireland 77.4 Italy 6.1 United States 77.4 United States 6.6
1. Infant deaths per 1,000 live births. 2. Life expectancy at birth, in years, both sexes.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, International Database.
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TC
Robert - 26 Aug 2004 19:14 GMT "tcomeau" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
You are comparing apples and oranges. You should be comparing government insurance programs among nations. The US does not have a national monopolistic system. The US medicare system provides less than regular private insurance companies in effect lowering the quality of care as what happens with government programs. If anything it shows that the US Medicare program for the elderly sucks. It also doesn't show tha life expectancy of HIV or IV abusers in those countries or the life expectancy for the poor in comparison.
news:b550f406.0408260650.dabb62c@posting.google.com...
> Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > TC tcomeau - 27 Aug 2004 14:59 GMT > "tcomeau" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > You are comparing apples and oranges. You should be comparing government > insurance programs among nations. No apples and oranges here, we are comparing life expectancies, and infant mortalities. That is pretty straightforward stuff there Mr. Idiot.
> The US does not have a national monopolistic system. Interesting, the US does not have a comprehensive national healthcare system in place for their citizens and taxpayers and the US ranks 20th in life expectancies and infant mortalities. Pretty much in last place for all modern western democracies. Hummm, do you think there may me a connection there?
And you are stupid enough to say that as if you are proud of it. Or that it is a bad thing to provide decent healthcare to all your citizens and taxpayers.
> The US medicare system provides less than regular private insurance > companies in effect lowering the quality of care as what happens with > government programs. Less care, lower quality care, more cost, lower life expectancies and higher infant mortalities. Do you see a pattern here? I do.
> If anything it shows that the US Medicare program for the elderly sucks. It shows that the US Medicare program sucks.
> It also doesn't show tha life expectancy of HIV or IV abusers in those > countries or the life expectancy for the poor in comparison. Irrelevant. These two groups are part of the overall numbers, which still means nothing in terms of this discussion.
It shows that the US Medicare program sucks. Less care, lower quality care, more cost, lower life expectancies and higher infant mortalities.
No apples and oranges, we are comparing life expectancies, and infant mortalities. That is pretty straightforward stuff there Mr. Idiot.
The US still ranks 20th in life expectancies and infant mortalities. In the *WORLD*. Hardly an endorsement for the US model for health care.
Even the *Czech Republic*, an eastern european backwater just fresh from 40 years of Russian and communist domination, has a significantly lower infant mortality rate (4) than the US (6.6). That is a 61% difference.
Most, if not all, of the counties ahead of the US in both charts have socialized medicine.
Now your silly protestations are just plain ludicrous. You and your utter stupidity are a further embarassment to your country.
TC
> news:b550f406.0408260650.dabb62c@posting.google.com... > > Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > TC Robert - 27 Aug 2004 18:59 GMT > > "tcomeau" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Less care, lower quality care, more cost, lower life expectancies and > higher infant mortalities. Do you see a pattern here? I do. Yes as I do to. That is the governments care for the elderly has lower quality care and cost more and should not be expanded to the entire population here. Thanks for proving my point as the elderly under medicare already have the same insurance that you are proposing the nation to be under including the twenty year olds. They have a lower life expectancy under that system.
> > If anything it shows that the US Medicare program for the elderly sucks. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Irrelevant. These two groups are part of the overall numbers, which > still means nothing in terms of this discussion. You are talking about the young too or not? We already have Medicare for those in their sixties so the only thing changing would be to include the young. It is very relevent.
> It shows that the US Medicare program sucks. Less care, lower quality > care, more cost, lower life expectancies and higher infant > mortalities. > > No apples and oranges, we are comparing life expectancies, and infant > mortalities. That is pretty straightforward stuff there Mr. Idiot. Again you are showing that people die old and when they are old they are on Medicare. That mortality rate is a reflection of Medicare status. It proves that when you lose your private insurance people die sooner when they are put on Medicare.
> The US still ranks 20th in life expectancies and infant mortalities. > In the *WORLD*. Hardly an endorsement for the US model for health [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > > > > TC Larry Hoover - 28 Aug 2004 03:10 GMT > Yes as I do to. That is the governments care for the elderly has lower > quality care and cost more and should not be expanded to the entire [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that when you lose your private insurance people die sooner when they are > put on Medicare. Do you have a clue what you're talking about? Life expectancy is a cohort statistic, which include lifespan mortality factors. It isn't something that is applied only after retirement, or at age 65, or whatever the hell you're arguing. If fewer people make it to old age, the life expectancy is reduced. Lack of insurance before age 65 is probably the biggest factor reducing the life expectancy in the U.S., not Medicaid in the declining years.
Lar
tcomeau - 27 Aug 2004 15:27 GMT You've been doing nothing but comparing the US healthcare system to the Canadian healthcare system since you started posting to this group, even when the topic had nothing to do with healthcare systems, and now you are telling me that we are comparing apples to oranges?
What an idiot.
TC
> "tcomeau" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > > > TC Robert - 27 Aug 2004 19:05 GMT > You've been doing nothing but comparing the US healthcare system to > the Canadian healthcare system since you started posting to this > group, even when the topic had nothing to do with healthcare systems, > and now you are telling me that we are comparing apples to oranges? You are comparing statistics that don't really prove anything. For one the cost of care of which you do not include people paying for additional private supplemental insurance for canadians are not included in the price of care. You do not include People coming to the US for treatment out of pocket cost to them. You do not include the wages you steal from the Healthcare workers in their low pay. You do not include the cut drug prices. If you add all those up, you will see that the price of your care is balony when published and quoted by people.
> What an idiot. > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > > > > > TC tcomeau - 26 Aug 2004 21:29 GMT > Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > TC http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Publ icly_funded_medicine#Public_systems_around_the_world
Public systems around the world
In Australia the current system, known as Medicare, was instituted in 1984. It coexists with a private health system. Currently, the tax levy system of funding Medicare has lead to a severe revenue shortfall, with increased costs to patients. This has triggered reforms by the Howard government to the scheme. Many critics claim that these reforms are in fact a move away from the principle of universal health care.
Canada has a federally-sponsored publicly funded medicare system, but each province may opt in or out but none curretnly do. Basic services are wholly public, with no fee for service allowed. Other areas of health care such as dentistry and optometry are almost wholly private. In Finland the publicly funded medical system is funded by taxation and every citizen has a state-funded health insurance. The system is comprehensive and compulsory, like in Sweden, and a small patient fee is also taken.
In France, most doctors remain in private practice; there are both private and public hospitals. Social Security is a public organization (actually, several of them) distinct from the state government, and with separate budgets. It generally refunds patients 70% of most health care costs, and 100% in case of costly or long-term ailments. Supplemental coverage may be bought from private insurers, most of them nonprofit, mutual insurer s.
In Israel, the publicly funded medical system is universal and compulsory. Payment for the services are shared by labor unions, the military, and the treasury.
In Sweden, the publicly funded medicine system is comprehensive and compulsory. Physician and hospital services take a small patient fee, but the services are funded through the taxation scheme of the County Councils of Sweden.
In 1948, the United Kingdom passed the National Health Service Act that provided free physician and hospital services to all citizens. Most doctors and nurses are on government payroll and receive salaries, a fixed fee for each patient assigned, and enhanced payments for specialized treatments or skills. The National Health Service has been amended from time to time, but is largely intact. Around 86% of prescriptions are provided free. Prescriptions are provided free to people who satisfy certain criteria such as low income or permanent disabilities. People that pay for prescriptions do not pay the full cost. For example, in 2004 most people will pay a flat fee of £6.40 (9.64, US$11.76) for a single drug prescription regardless of the cost (average cost to the health service was £11.10--about 16.70, US$20.40--in 2002). Funding comes from a hypothecated health insurance tax and from general taxation. Private health services are also available.
The United States has been virtually alone among developed nations in not maintaining a publicly-funded health-care system since South Africa adopted one after toppling its apartheid regime, but a few states have taken serious steps toward achieving this goal, most notably Minnesota. Other states, while not attempting to insure all of their residents strictly speaking, cover large numbers of people by reimbursing hospitals and other health-care providers using what is generally characterized as a "charity care" scheme; New Jersey is perhaps the best example of a state that employs the latter strategy.
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TC
Lictor - 26 Aug 2004 22:13 GMT > In France, most doctors remain in private practice; there are both > private and public hospitals. Social security will cover both of these without distinction. Likewise, private insurance will also cover both. Choice between public or private system is the patient's business only. Actually, many doctors do both; they have a private office, but work a couple of days a week at the public hospital. This is especially true of doctors who need access to costly machines or staff as they often get a deal allowing them to use hospital resources for private use in exchange of working hours in the public system.
> It generally refunds patients 70% of most > health care costs, and 100% in case of costly or long-term ailments. That's the general system. People on really low revenue get access to universal healthcare which bumps there to 100%. This includes homelesses, but also used to include everyone on the territory, including illegal immigrants (they still qualify, but they have to jump through complex loops to get it now :( ). Long term ailments and serious diseases (AIDS, diabete, cancer...) also get promoted to 100% coverage. Likewise, surgery and other serious exams are covered at the 100% rate. Dental (especially prosthesis and enamelled crowns) and corrective glasses get poor coverage, that's where private insurances step in.
> Supplemental coverage may be bought from private insurers, most of > them nonprofit, mutual insurer s. Yes, that's an area where we get full choice, we have both mutual benefit insurance and classical insurance. Most people pick the former for obvious reasons. If you have very low revenues, the State can give you a contribution towards paying for a private insurance. Many people also get their private insurance partly or totally paid as benefits from their employer.
PaulP - 27 Aug 2004 12:37 GMT > Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 > > Country Life Expectancy Country Infant mortality > > Japan 81 Sweden 2.8 > Australia 80.3 Japan 3.3 Are you suggesting Americans eat more like the Japanese?
PaulP
tcomeau - 27 Aug 2004 18:52 GMT > > Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > PaulP Is there anything in my post that says anything like that? And if I did, what's the problem?
TC
PaulP - 27 Aug 2004 23:50 GMT > > > Infant Mortality and Life Expectancy for Selected Countries, 2004 > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > TC Isn't it ironic that a people whose diet is centered on white rice, with beans and sugar for dessert, has the longest life expectancy?
PaulP
Robert - 28 Aug 2004 04:47 GMT > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > PaulP That's my point when idiots start bringing out numbers and then spin anything they want to with them.
john - 29 Aug 2004 03:40 GMT >> > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message >> news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >That's my point when idiots start bringing out numbers and then spin >anything they want to with them. That's what they always say then the numbers don't agree with them.
tcomeau - 28 Aug 2004 17:02 GMT > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > PaulP I am not convinced that all Japanese eat that way. Sounds kinda like a westerners skewed idea of what the japanese must all eat.
I know the typical japanese home cooked meal contains a lot of fresh fish and produce. Being a cook myself, I find that their recipes contain little refined carbs other than a fair amount of white rice.
So I'm not so sure that the point you are trying to make is actually a valid point.
TC
Wolfbrother - 28 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT > > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > TC Just watch the show Iron Chef to get an idea. It will dispel many myths. For example creating a "Fat Netting" for certain dishes is a popular traditional cooking technique.
Wolfbrother - 28 Aug 2004 23:15 GMT > > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > TC I find it amusing how something like a "fat netting" is not only totally unheard of but would be considered totally appalling in the west with our supposed fatty animal food diet! Yet it is commonly used in japan. lol
PaulP - 29 Aug 2004 01:49 GMT > Just watch the show Iron Chef to get an idea. It will dispel many > myths. For example creating a "Fat Netting" for certain dishes is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > west with our supposed fatty animal food diet! Yet it is commonly > used in japan. lol Fat netting is neither popular nor traditional in Japan. And I wouldn't confuse Iron Chef to typical Japanese cooking. Iron Chef is a TV show.
PaulP
tcomeau - 30 Aug 2004 14:35 GMT > > > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > west with our supposed fatty animal food diet! Yet it is commonly > used in japan. lol It isn't unusual in french cooking. It is a standard french technique, which means basically that any one with chefs training will use it sooner or later. And french techniques are used throughout the world, wherever gourmet cooking is found.
TC
PaulP - 29 Aug 2004 02:31 GMT > > > "PaulP" <paulp@japan.com> wrote in message > > news:<cgn654$1014$1@nsvn02.zaq.ne.jp>... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > TC I live in Japan and you can take my word for it that the Japanese eat rice with every meal, including breakfast, except when the meal includes noodles, pasta or bread. The typical 80-year-old will eat every meal holding a rice bowl in his left hand. And there will not be "a lot of" anything. There will be a little fish and small dishes of vegetables. This is the key to health and weight control.
The younger generations who have been raised on cheeseburgers, French fries, Coke and ice cream are becoming as obese and diabetic as Americans and will probably not see the longevity of their grandparents.
PaulP
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