Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
rather than the underlying cause. The question becomes, why is
cholesterol too high?
Many of the body's hormones are derived from cholesterol. Suppose that,
for whatever reason, the conversion of cholesterol to hormone A is only
half as efficient as in our youth or in a healthier body. Perhaps the
increase in cholesterol is the body's attempt to maintain the proper
level of hormone A. Of course if the conversions of cholesterol to
hormones B and C are okay, then hormones B and C will be become too high.
I welcome your comments on this possibility, as well as any other
theories as to why the body might elevate its production of cholesterol,
thus making its reduction unwise.
(I'm aware that the constant lowering of "safe" levels is an attempt to
get more people on expensive drugs. I'm also aware that reducing
cholesterol levels below a certain level isn't really a valid end point;
incidence of heart attacks or strokes or death from them are probably
better ones. And I'm aware that half the people dying from heart attacks
have none of the alleged major risk factors: high LDL or total
cholesterol levels, smoking, obesity, etc. So no need to raise these
points.)
Ray
Robert - 26 Aug 2004 19:02 GMT
> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
> prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
> rather than the underlying cause. The question becomes, why is
> cholesterol too high?
Cholesterol is a marker for disease and you really want to get at the
underlying cause as you state so the question is not why is the cholesterol
too high. The cholesterol may be low normal or high in disease and in normal
health ie reactive which is why the lipid panel is always performed when you
are not acutely sick.
> Many of the body's hormones are derived from cholesterol. Suppose that,
> for whatever reason, the conversion of cholesterol to hormone A is only
> half as efficient as in our youth or in a healthier body. Perhaps the
> increase in cholesterol is the body's attempt to maintain the proper
> level of hormone A. Of course if the conversions of cholesterol to
> hormones B and C are okay, then hormones B and C will be become too high.
That would then be an apparent normal physiology and it would thus be
reactive and not pathologic.
> I welcome your comments on this possibility, as well as any other
> theories as to why the body might elevate its production of cholesterol,
> thus making its reduction unwise.
Cholesterol is a marker for disease and is involved in tissue repair in both
normal and abnormal physiology. It may not be primary in cause but secondary
in a normal physiological repair process. The normal repair can cause
narrowing of the lumen and in the long run disease. You want to reduce the
availability of the normal repair process by limiting the amount of
cholesterol in circulation.
> (I'm aware that the constant lowering of "safe" levels is an attempt to
> get more people on expensive drugs. I'm also aware that reducing
> cholesterol levels below a certain level isn't really a valid end point;
???????
> incidence of heart attacks or strokes or death from them are probably
> better ones. And I'm aware that half the people dying from heart attacks
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ray
The classical LDL, TC are not by themselves accurate. Subgrouping of LDL and
lipids are more specific and can explain the so called normal LDL and the
person gets a heart attack. If the LDL is mostly of an abnormal type then
the total LDL is misleading.
Wolfbrother - 26 Aug 2004 21:24 GMT
> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
> prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Ray
Yes it is true that lowering cholesterol with drugs is not safe.
Cholesterol does indeed rise with age and the body does this for good
reason. It is a well established fact that not only is cholesterol
not a risk factor in elderly people, but those with the highest
cholesterol live longer.
facts about the benefits of high cholesterol by Uffe Ravnskov
http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html
risks of cholesterol lowering drugs
http://www.thincs.org/pressrelease82004.htm
other good info about cholesterol at The International Network of
Cholesterol Skeptics
http://www.thincs.org
Robert - 27 Aug 2004 09:13 GMT
> > Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
> > prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> facts about the benefits of high cholesterol by Uffe Ravnskov
Not facts only spin. Talk about spin. So low cholesterol is bad?
Most people with heart attacks have a low cholesterol?
He spins the fact that maybe the young have stress and it causes the
cholesterol to go up well then wouldn't that make the people with high
cholesterols more resistent to heart attacks.
He takes unrelated things and takes a spin on them.
He is one big myth
A heart attack is caused by blocked arteries as a result of "cholesterol"
build up. It cloggs the arteries. What in the hell does he think causes the
clogged artery? Giant Bacteria? One big ball of bacteria? Cut out an artery
and look at it and see what's there. Its not a myth moron.
> http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> http://www.thincs.org
Wolfbrother - 27 Aug 2004 19:59 GMT
> > Ray K <raykosXXX@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:<VamXc.4809$ZD4.5182422@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> clogged artery? Giant Bacteria? One big ball of bacteria? Cut out an artery
> and look at it and see what's there. Its not a myth moron.
You really are pathetic. I hope you are enjoying your statins. We
will see who the moron is when you are dead from your stupidity. It
must be frightening and depressing thinking the only way you can stay
alive are toxic drugs. Yet you seem to cling so desperately to such
self destructive notions.
Jay Tanzman - 28 Aug 2004 05:18 GMT
>>>Ray K <raykosXXX@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> You really are pathetic. I hope you are enjoying your statins. We
> will see who the moron is when you are dead from your stupidity.
At least he won't be dead from _your_ stupidity.
-Jay
Robert - 28 Aug 2004 09:36 GMT
> >>>Ray K <raykosXXX@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> -Jay
There's cholesterol deposits narrowing the arteries and the moron says it is
a myth and don't believe it.
Some people know how to swim and some others don't so if you through them
both in the water the ones who don't know how to swim will drown. Conclusion
it wasn't the water that caused them to drown because some didn't. That's
the type of dumb a.s logic the entire book is based on.
Robert - 28 Aug 2004 09:29 GMT
> > > Ray K <raykosXXX@optonline.net> wrote in message
> > news:<VamXc.4809$ZD4.5182422@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> alive are toxic drugs. Yet you seem to cling so desperately to such
> self destructive notions.
Tell me what's clogging arteries then? Ok it's not cholesterol then what is
it?
If your garbage disposal gets clogged up with banana peels then don't put
banana peels in it next time.
If your arteries get clogged with cholesterol then lower your cholesterol
until they can come up with something better.
C Kent - 29 Aug 2004 17:34 GMT
> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing?
Yes -- Of course it is!
See: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/why4.htm
A 1994 study called the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (also called
4S) found that lowering cholesterol can prevent heart attacks and reduce
death in men and women who already have heart disease and high cholesterol.
For over 5 years, more than 4,400 patients with heart disease and total
cholesterol levels of 213 mg/dL to 310 mg/dL were given either a
cholesterol-lowering drug or a placebo (a dummy pill that looks exactly like
the medication). The drug they were given is known as a statin, and it
reduced total cholesterol levels by 25 percent and LDL-cholesterol levels by
35 percent. The study found that in those receiving statin, deaths from
heart disease were reduced by 42 percent, the chance of having a nonfatal
heart attack was reduced by 37 percent, and the need for bypass surgery or
angioplasty was reduced by 37 percent. A very important finding is that
deaths from causes other than cardiovascular disease were not increased, and
so the 42 percent reduction in heart disease deaths resulted in a 30 percent
drop in overall deaths from all causes.
The 4S researchers say that the following benefits could be expected if
doctors were to treat their heart disease patients for the same 5-year
period and lower cholesterol to the same extent. For every 1,000 patients:
a.. 40 people would be saved out of the 90 who would otherwise die from
heart disease.
b.. 70 of the expected 210 nonfatal heart attacks would be avoided.
c.. Heart procedures such as bypass surgery would be avoided in 60 of the
210 patients who would be expected to need these procedures.
In 1996 the results of the Cholesterol and Recurrent Events (CARE) Study
also showed the benefits of cholesterol lowering in heart disease patients.
This study reported that even in patients with seemingly normal cholesterol
levels (average of 209 mg/dL), cholesterol lowering with a statin drug
lowered the risk of having another heart attack or dying by 24 percent.
These patients were also less likely to need bypass surgery (26 percent
reduction) or angioplasty (22 percent reduction) during the study. Women
benefited even more than men, reducing their risk of having another heart
attack by 45 percent. The CARE researchers estimate that treatment of 1,000
patients similar to those in CARE would result in 153 fewer heart attacks
and deaths from heart disease. If the patients were over 60, there would be
214 fewer, and if they were all women, there would be 248 fewer.
A study published in 1998, the Long-Term Intervention with Pravastatin in
Ischaemic Disease (LIPID) study, examined the effects of cholesterol
lowering in people with CHD (those who had already experienced a heart
attack or had been hospitalized for angina) and who had relatively average
cholesterol levels. The LIPID study used a statin drug to lower cholesterol
levels in the treatment group. All study participants were counseled about
following a cholesterol-lowering diet. The LIPID results showed that a drop
of 18 percent in total cholesterol and 25 percent in LDL-cholesterol
produced a 24 percent decrease in deaths from CHD among the treatment group
compared with the control group. Similarly, cholesterol-lowering in the
treatment group reduced the overall death rate by 22 percent, heart attacks
by 29 percent, the need for bypass surgery or angioplasty by 20 percent, and
stroke by 19 percent. Cholesterol lowering in the LIPID study resulted in
significant reductions in CHD-related deaths and events without increasing
non-CHD deaths.
In the 4S, CARE, and LIPID trials, diabetic patients benefited from
cholesterol lowering as much as nondiabetics. These studies along with many
others support the need to lower cholesterol levels in heart disease
patients. People with diabetes who do not have heart disease have a high
risk for developing it - more than 20% over the next 10 years. People with a
combination of several risk factors may also have more than a 20% risk of
developing heart disease in the next 10 years. If your risk for developing
heart disease is high (you have diabetes but do not have heart disease, or
if you have a combination of risk factors and more than 20% risk in the next
20 years), you can expect benefits from cholesterol-lowering similar to
those in people with heart disease. If you lower your cholesterol, you too
can see benefits like those in 4S, CARE, and LIPID.
Also check out
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44702-2004Jul12.html
and check the ATP III Guidelines at
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/
GMCarter - 30 Aug 2004 09:56 GMT
>> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing?
>
>Yes -- Of course it is!
I agree.
>See: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/why4.htm
>A 1994 study called the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (also called
>4S) found that lowering cholesterol can prevent heart attacks and reduce
>death in men and women who already have heart disease and high cholesterol.
snip
> a.. 40 people would be saved out of the 90 who would otherwise die from
>heart disease.
That looks nice but the data spun out here do not reflect the original
article's finding that nearly the same number of people died in the
follow-up in both the original and treatment arms.
I contend that lowering cholesterol can be done in safer ways than
simvastatin. Aside from dietary changes, quitting smoking, exercising,
agents such as policosanol, pantethine, inositol hexanicotinate,
fenugreek, insoluble fiber and others have shown some significant
improvement in a range of lipid dyscrasias, including management of
increased LDL, triglycerides, VLDL and low HDL.
George M. Carter
francispoon - 31 Aug 2004 23:44 GMT
> >> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I contend that lowering cholesterol can be done in safer ways than
> simvastatin.
Use herbs. I tried it before and they worked beautifully. The good
thing about using herbs is that you need not take them permanently and
there are hardly any side-effects. The downside to herbs is that you
do need an experienced herbs practitioner to prescribe a recipee which
does not make your body over-react. And I doubt if there are that
many good traditional practitioners are around in North America.
FP
==================================
Aside from dietary changes, quitting smoking, exercising,
> agents such as policosanol, pantethine, inositol hexanicotinate,
> fenugreek, insoluble fiber and others have shown some significant
> improvement in a range of lipid dyscrasias, including management of
> increased LDL, triglycerides, VLDL and low HDL.
>
> George M. Carter
Lictor - 01 Sep 2004 11:11 GMT
> Use herbs. I tried it before and they worked beautifully. The good
> thing about using herbs is that you need not take them permanently and
> there are hardly any side-effects.
Herbs are just drugs in their natural form. A good deal of the drugs we use
now started as plant extracts anyway. Like drugs, herbs do have
side-effects. Like drugs, they only tend to work for as long as you use
them, unless you use them to treat an acute disease (and then you can
discontinue use, just like you do with drugs). Herbs can kill you or harm
you, just as easily as drugs can. Eating a few mouthful of bay leafs
(dont't!) will be as harmfull as overdosing on heart pills.
GMCarter - 01 Sep 2004 11:42 GMT
snip
>Use herbs. I tried it before and they worked beautifully. The good
>thing about using herbs is that you need not take them permanently and
>there are hardly any side-effects. The downside to herbs is that you
>do need an experienced herbs practitioner to prescribe a recipee which
>does not make your body over-react. And I doubt if there are that
>many good traditional practitioners are around in North America.
A variety of nutrients might help. See, e.g.,
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/3/203.pdf
George M. Carter
Jan - 30 Aug 2004 09:18 GMT
> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
> prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Ray
On the page 25 of the lecture below there is a diagram which shows the
correlations between total cholesterol and coronary heart disease in
The Seven Countries Study. You can see a clear correlation between
high cholesterol and CHD mortality in Northern Europe and in the
United States. However, in countries where flavonoid intake (see page
26) is high and intake of omega-3 fats is also high there is almost no
correlation. I would draw a conclusion that if the diet is not
especially healthy one should try to lower cholesterol. But the best
option is always to correct the diet.
http://www.mgsd.net/uk/medias/Crepaldi_Drouin_lecture.PDF
Jan
tcomeau - 30 Aug 2004 16:40 GMT
> Is lowering cholesterol really a good thing? Regardless of method -
> prescription drugs, diet, supplements - it seems like treating a symptom
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Ray
Of course we need to lower cholesterol. How else are the
pharmaceutical companies going to earn billions for their share
holders?
TC