Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / April 2004
cholesterol and heart disease - interesting story
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tcomeau - 28 Apr 2004 22:04 GMT http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference
TC
Robert - 28 Apr 2004 23:13 GMT > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your > heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference > > TC I agree with both sides of the controversy on cholesterol but as stated in the article that one must make certain assumptions that not everybody is aware of. 1. Not everybody with a high cholesterol will develop heart disease and this makes it a poor marker by itself. 2. You can not depend heavily on one single marker for CAD. Too many people want to say that the HDL/total cholesterol ratio is the best marker but that is not valid. 3. You must rely on "all" known markers for CAD including genetics and you don't want to reduce it to one single good one. 4. You are trying to predict, in the young, who has an increased chance of developing CAD with age. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't. 5. The initial studies were survey epidemiological studies relating cholesterol and CAD. This association was made but causality was only implied and not proved. It takes time to develop heart disease so long term studies obviously take time. 6. This does not apply to the old who already would have developed or not, CAD. 7. As with anything else better predictors for CAD are being developed, but like the changes with the knowledge base involving cholesterol, they will also evolve and change themselves. these are also associations and may not be causality related. To say that heart disease is primarily related to inflammation and CRP is like saying heart disease is related to lipids and cholesterol. Aspirin has been used for years in heart disease and inflammation has been studied from day one. The bottom line is that it is a multifactoral disease involving genetics, inflammation, free radical damage, lipids and what ever comes down the pike later on. You will always get one group criticizing the other group for funding and attention.
tcomeau - 29 Apr 2004 15:00 GMT > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > later on. You will always get one group criticizing the other group for > funding and attention. I agree. But it is almost criminal how they continue to push testing for cholesterol. It means virtually nothing but everyone is urged to get the cholesterol checked. Someone is making a whack of cash on this. And treatment with statins are pretty much useless, but that seems to be the rage too. Again, someone is making a whack of cash.
TC
Robert - 29 Apr 2004 19:30 GMT > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > TC I think you are throwing out the babe with the bath water. The association with risk factors involving lipids has been established. People with a certain lipid profile on testing have an increased risk for heart disease. For the sake of argument let's say 80-90% of those with heart disease will have markers of independent risk factors. Not every person with that same lipid profile develop disease and let's say only 50% of that group will develop heart disease. This makes lipids a not so good positive predictor of disease but a good negative predictor. You do this for each analyte being total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglyceride. When you combine all the other independent risk factors such as hypertension, family history and other markers such CRP, homocyteine and apolipoprotein analysis then you really get a more accurate and complete assessment. Just because lipids are not the primary cause of heart disease it doesn't mean they have no role. Their pathophysiology involves a lesion on the artery wall induced by who knows what and involves inflammation and host tissue repair incorporating lipids resulting in rich fatty lipid deposits causing a reduction in lumen size. They are trying to decrease of stop the lipid deposition by decreasing the lipid building blocks with the use of drugs. Drugs to manipulate or decrease immune response will also be undertaken. Antibiotics used in eradicating certain bacteria aimed at stopping the initial event lesion have also been undertaken. The search for the specific gene or genes in these people making them vulnerable to these insults and or altered immune response is also being undertaken. Research will be proven wrong with outcome studies intended to treat these things so change is expected. It is a waste of money and not useful to treat everybody with a high cholesterol but only studies and more specific markers will lead the way. It is a valid criticism of the health care industry as to why they chose that unprecedented program. Cholesterol testing is the only test to my knowledge that has national standards for testing. The bigger question is should nutritional alteration imitate drug manipulation. It has always done so. Don't eat eggs because of the high cholesterol content will raise your blood cholesterol, all the way down the road. It is thus a valid criticism about nutritional advise and products also and not just drug companies.
fresh~horses - 29 Apr 2004 19:53 GMT > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > TC Salut
This is a controversial topic. Many take statins and virtually all are counselled to lower cholesterol. Cholesterol makes up the myelin sheath of the nerves and cholesterol is needed by the brain. How much cholesterol lowering is safe, by any means, drug or diet?
Statins also cause a depletion of coenzyme Q10. This depletion causes mitochondrial damage.
Statins can cause cognitive side effects: irritability, aggression, memory loss, aphasia, learning difficulties, and transient global amnesia. Read the link on Duane Graveline MD, former US astronaut who writes about his experience with short term memory loss and transient global amnesia in Lipitor: Thief of Memory.
Some different thinking on the statin issue.
The Cholesterol Myths http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm Also do a search on his name on sci.med.cardiology.
www.pubmed.org Biofactors. 2003;18(1-4):101-11 The clinical use of HMG CoA-reductase inhibitors and the associated depletion of coenzyme Q10. A review of animal and human publications. Langsjoen PH, Langsjoen AM. East Texas Medical Center and Trinity Mother Francis Health System Tyler, TX 75701, USA. langsjoen@compuserve.com Also do a search on Langsjoen on sci.med.cardiology.
http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick.html Malcom Kendrick MD, columnist, with many columns on cholesterol and statins. Also do a search on his name on sci.med.cardiology.
Statins and transient global amnesia Lipitor: Thief of Memory http://www.spacedoc.net/
If all statins act similarly and all deplete coenzyme Q10, all will have dangerous side effects to a greater or lesser degree, depending on dosage, length of use and each person's original health.
For those taking statins for heart health, there is an even more ridiculous irony: statins *cause* cardiomyopathy.
Zee
fresh~horses - 30 Apr 2004 00:40 GMT > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > > > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > > Zee Newspaper columnist on statins, cholesterol and statins; Not the best info, but the newest I found:
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/living/8545302.htm?template=contentModule s/printstory.jsp Posted on Thu, Apr. 29, 2004 Statins may need CoQ10 for protection
Q: In reference to your column on statin drugs, I am an 85-year-old lady taking Lipitor (10 mg) to lower my cholesterol. Something that I did not hear from a doctor or read in the patient drug information was the importance of taking CoQ10 with the statin drug to protect your heart. I have read about this from several sources and also have read that the pharmaceutical companies were advised to include CoQ10 in the statin drug tablet but chose not to do so.
I don't think this information is getting enough publicity to help the millions of people taking these drugs. I was surprised that you didn't mention it in your article.
A: I have written about this issue in the past, and it's time for an update.
Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10 for short) is a vitamin-like substance that plays a role in the body's energy production. The body manufactures it, and it also is present in foods such as meats, fish and soybean oil.
In some countries, CoQ10 supplements are approved for treating cardiovascular conditions, particularly heart failure, for which it may be prescribed to enhance the effects of conventional drugs.
Statin drugs such as Lipitor work by interfering with an enzyme necessary for the body's manufacture of cholesterol. This same enzyme is also required for the production of CoQ10.
For this reason, statin drugs reduce blood levels of CoQ10 along with cholesterol.
--more at url
Mike V - 30 Apr 2004 12:54 GMT > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html > > For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your > heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference > > TC Statins Role in Primary Prevention (still) Not Proven. Evidence based Medicine. "Therapeutics Letter" University of British Columbia.
http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter48.htm
MikeV
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