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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / April 2004

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cholesterol and heart disease - interesting story

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tcomeau - 28 Apr 2004 22:04 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html

For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your
heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference

TC
Robert - 28 Apr 2004 23:13 GMT
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
>
> For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your
> heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference
>
> TC

I agree with both sides of the controversy on cholesterol but as stated in
the article that one must make certain assumptions that not everybody is
aware of.
1. Not everybody with a high cholesterol will develop heart disease and this
makes it a poor marker by itself.
2. You can not depend heavily on one single marker for CAD.
  Too many people want to say that the HDL/total cholesterol ratio is the
best marker but that is not valid.
3. You must rely on "all" known markers for CAD including genetics and you
don't want to reduce it to one single good one.
4. You are trying to predict, in the young, who has an increased chance of
developing CAD with age. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't.
5. The initial studies were survey epidemiological studies relating
cholesterol and CAD. This association was made but causality was only
implied and not proved. It takes time to develop heart disease so long term
studies obviously take time.
6. This does not apply to the old who already would have developed or not,
CAD.
7. As with anything else better predictors for CAD are being developed, but
like the changes with the knowledge base involving cholesterol, they will
also evolve and change themselves. these are also associations and may not
be causality related. To say that heart disease is primarily related to
inflammation and CRP is like saying heart disease is related to lipids and
cholesterol. Aspirin has been used for years in heart disease and
inflammation has been studied from day one.
The bottom line is that it is a multifactoral disease involving genetics,
inflammation, free radical damage, lipids and what ever comes down the pike
later on. You will always get one group criticizing the other group for
funding and attention.
tcomeau - 29 Apr 2004 15:00 GMT
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
> >
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> later on. You will always get one group criticizing the other group for
> funding and attention.

I agree. But it is almost criminal how they continue to push testing
for cholesterol. It means virtually nothing but everyone is urged to
get the cholesterol checked. Someone is making a whack of cash on
this. And treatment with statins are pretty much useless, but that
seems to be the rage too. Again, someone is making a whack of cash.

TC
Robert - 29 Apr 2004 19:30 GMT
> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> TC

I think you are throwing out the babe with the bath water. The association
with risk factors involving lipids has been established.
People with a certain lipid profile on testing have an increased risk for
heart disease. For the sake of argument let's say 80-90% of those with heart
disease will have markers of independent risk factors. Not every person with
that same lipid profile develop disease and let's say only 50% of that group
will develop heart disease. This makes lipids a not so good positive
predictor of disease but a  good negative predictor. You do this for each
analyte being total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglyceride. When you
combine all the other independent risk factors such as hypertension, family
history and other markers such CRP, homocyteine and apolipoprotein analysis
then you really get a more accurate and complete assessment.
Just because lipids are not the primary cause of heart disease it doesn't
mean they have no role. Their pathophysiology involves a lesion on the
artery wall induced by who knows what and involves inflammation and host
tissue repair incorporating lipids resulting in rich fatty lipid deposits
causing a reduction in lumen size. They are trying to decrease of stop the
lipid deposition by decreasing the lipid building blocks with the use of
drugs.
Drugs to manipulate or decrease immune response will also be undertaken.
Antibiotics used in eradicating certain bacteria aimed at stopping the
initial event lesion have also been undertaken. The search for the specific
gene or genes in these people making them vulnerable to these insults and or
altered immune response is also being undertaken.
Research will be proven wrong with outcome studies intended to treat these
things so change is expected. It is a waste of money and not useful to treat
everybody with a high cholesterol but only studies and more specific markers
will lead the way. It is a valid criticism of the health care industry as to
why they chose that unprecedented program. Cholesterol testing is the only
test to my knowledge that has national standards for testing.
The bigger question is should nutritional alteration imitate drug
manipulation. It has always done so. Don't eat eggs because of the high
cholesterol content will raise your blood cholesterol, all the way down the
road. It is thus a valid criticism about nutritional advise and products
also and not just drug companies.
fresh~horses - 29 Apr 2004 19:53 GMT
> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> TC

Salut

This is a controversial topic. Many take statins and virtually all are
counselled to lower cholesterol. Cholesterol makes up the myelin
sheath of the nerves and cholesterol is needed by the brain. How much
cholesterol lowering is safe, by any means, drug or diet?

Statins also cause a depletion of coenzyme Q10. This depletion causes
mitochondrial damage.

Statins can cause cognitive side effects: irritability, aggression,
memory loss, aphasia, learning difficulties, and transient global
amnesia. Read the link on Duane Graveline MD, former US astronaut who
writes about his experience with short term memory loss and transient
global amnesia in Lipitor: Thief of Memory.

Some different thinking on the statin issue.

The Cholesterol Myths
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm
Also do a search on his name on sci.med.cardiology.

www.pubmed.org
Biofactors. 2003;18(1-4):101-11
The clinical use of HMG CoA-reductase inhibitors and the associated
depletion of coenzyme Q10. A review of animal and human publications.
Langsjoen PH, Langsjoen AM.
East Texas Medical Center and Trinity Mother Francis Health System
Tyler, TX 75701, USA.
langsjoen@compuserve.com
Also do a search on Langsjoen on sci.med.cardiology.

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick.html
Malcom Kendrick MD, columnist, with many columns on cholesterol and
statins.
Also do a search on his name on sci.med.cardiology.

Statins and transient global amnesia
Lipitor: Thief of Memory
http://www.spacedoc.net/

If all statins act similarly and all deplete coenzyme Q10, all will
have dangerous side effects to a greater or lesser degree, depending
on dosage, length of use and each person's original health.

For those taking statins for heart health, there is an even more
ridiculous irony: statins *cause* cardiomyopathy.

Zee
fresh~horses - 30 Apr 2004 00:40 GMT
> > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>
> Zee

Newspaper columnist on statins, cholesterol and statins; Not the best
info, but the newest I found:

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/living/8545302.htm?template=contentModule
s/printstory.jsp

Posted on Thu, Apr. 29, 2004  

Statins may need CoQ10 for protection

Q: In reference to your column on statin drugs, I am an 85-year-old
lady taking Lipitor (10 mg) to lower my cholesterol. Something that I
did not hear from a doctor or read in the patient drug information was
the importance of taking CoQ10 with the statin drug to protect your
heart. I have read about this from several sources and also have read
that the pharmaceutical companies were advised to include CoQ10 in the
statin drug tablet but chose not to do so.

I don't think this information is getting enough publicity to help the
millions of people taking these drugs. I was surprised that you didn't
mention it in your article.

A: I have written about this issue in the past, and it's time for an
update.

Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10 for short) is a vitamin-like substance that plays
a role in the body's energy production. The body manufactures it, and
it also is present in foods such as meats, fish and soybean oil.

In some countries, CoQ10 supplements are approved for treating
cardiovascular conditions, particularly heart failure, for which it
may be prescribed to enhance the effects of conventional drugs.

Statin drugs such as Lipitor work by interfering with an enzyme
necessary for the body's manufacture of cholesterol. This same enzyme
is also required for the production of CoQ10.

For this reason, statin drugs reduce blood levels of CoQ10 along with
cholesterol.

--more at url
Mike V - 30 Apr 2004 12:54 GMT
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,3605,1186456,00.html
>
> For decades the advice has been to cut cholesterol and protect your
> heart. Now some doctors think it makes no difference
>
> TC

Statins Role in Primary Prevention (still) Not Proven. Evidence based
Medicine. "Therapeutics Letter" University of British Columbia.

http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter48.htm

MikeV
 
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