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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / August 2009

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OK to take flax seed oil AND fish oil?

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Kalmia - 07 Aug 2009 18:00 GMT
My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
the other?

thank you
Ron Peterson - 07 Aug 2009 18:48 GMT
> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
> the other?

It's a good idea to take both. Fish oil contains DHA and EPA which are
biologically more effective than ALA. The body will convert ALA to EPA
and DHA. There are more palatable sources of ALA than flaxseed, but
they may not be as concentrated. Look at walnuts, canola oil, and chia
as other sources of ALA.

--
  Ron
montygraham - 07 Aug 2009 20:11 GMT
As long as you have very good health insurance.
Kalmia - 08 Aug 2009 00:47 GMT
> As long as you have very good health insurance.

OK--- you two have contradicted each other.  What am I to think?
Or are you two the group arch enemies?
MikeV - 08 Aug 2009 01:14 GMT
Ron Peterson is certifiable mainstream.
Monti is merely certifiable.
Take your pick
Mike V

>> As long as you have very good health insurance.
>
> OK--- you two have contradicted each other.  What am I to think?
> Or are you two the group arch enemies?
montygraham - 08 Aug 2009 04:18 GMT
My free site is at:

http://thescientificdebateforum.aimoo.com/

You can read some of the strong evidence against omega 3s there.  The
key question is, why are you taking a substance that is so susceptible
to oxidation, which can damage any vital biomolecule in your body?
And the answer is, to inhibit arachidonic acid metabolization.
However, this only helps make you more resistant to "chronic
inflammation," but then you are more susceptible to other serious
health problems ("bleeding strokes," for example), and the long-term
effects seem to be a case of "the patient died but the operation was a
success" (because this is mostly based upon "markers" rather than
things that almost everyone else is focused on, which is "overall
mortality").  Instead, what the evidence suggests (without any
contradictory evidence) and what I've found in my dietary experiments
on myself (since 2001) is that adult humans who are not pregnant do
not need either omega 6s nor omega 3s.  The human body makes a
different "essential fatty acid" or PUFA in the absence of these
others.  It's called the Mead acid (non-technical name).  It is
neither too "sticky" or inflammatory, as is the case for omega 6s, but
it does aid in healing very well (my cuts now heal to a rubbery scab,
which is much better than before), whereas omega 3s prevent your cuts
from healing.  This is why it was found that native Greenlanders, back
in the mid 20th century, often died of minor blunt-force traumas
("internal bleeding").  Why some people with "credentials" can't
examine all the evidence (not just what they would like to believe)
with an open mind is a question I cannot answer.  My guess is that
they are not as intelligent as they think they are (perhaps because
they do well on "IQ" tests) and have a "do-gooder" mentality, instead
of adhering to academic standards, which demand that evidence be
examined as a whole and without prejudice.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 08 Aug 2009 19:16 GMT
> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
> the other?
>
> thank you

My I offer an alternative view somewhat between Monty and Ron views.
First, try for unrefined fats in the form of unroasted nuts and seeds
for
the good plant fats with their natural antioxidants.
Second, while agree with Ron fish oil has some merits but I don't see
it fish oil omega 3 as a complete good. I suspect part of the game
is to trim omega 6 intake to improve the ratio of omega 3 fattty acids
to omega 6 fatty acids. Therefore when looking at supplements,
I'll suggest those fish oil supplements that have fewer fatty acids
that aren't EPA and DHA are to be preferred. And yes there a
are such products for example take as CLOSE look at the
various product in the Puritan's Pride catalog and check out
the 2X and 3X omega 3 supplements. And I'll suggest
there is merit to avoiding soy oil, canola oil, corn oil as these are
highly refined foods and concentrated sources of omega 6 FAs.
I have reservations about butter for cooking as it contain cholesterol
which could become a source of oxysterols especially if heated
intensely. By the way if you use butter store it the freezer
not the frig as this has profound effect on improving storage
of the fat and preserving it. This is not to say butter doesn't
have some other merits as food. On the other hand, coconut
meat with its short chain saturated fatty acids seem to be a healthy
food and it as I see it a food that permits lowering the
overall intake of unsaturated fatty acids. And in some
contexts I prefer virgin olive oil and in others coconut 'grease.'
As I'll suggest pork fat is especially nasty from what I have seen as
it is high arachidonic acid. And of course avoid hydrogentated
fats whether fully or partly hydrogentated. Hydrogenated soy oil
contains a damaged version of vitamin K that I suspect is best
avoided in addition to the trans-fats issue.

Further, to prevent hardening of the arteries I suggest looking
into both higher dose vitamin K-2 supplements and higher dose vitamin
D3 supplements. LEF carries a nice vitamin K supplement which I like.
And during the autumn and winter, I take 6000 to 8000 IU
of vitamin D3 and during the rest of year I take D3 depending
on sun exposure.

Further for blood lipid control consider stopping sucrose and high
fructose
corn syrup as this is really important as eating these is worse
some ways worse than eating fat. Avoiding grains and
grain products can also be useful in both controlling blood sugar
and triglycerides levels. Eating fructose raises uric acid
levels not a good thing for many.

So I'll suggest coconut meat, almonds, filberts, walnuts, good cold
water wild
caught fish, olive oil,  nonstarchy green veggies as many as possible,
some beef, no pork, no ham, no bacon, no salami. I am divided on
eggs as they contain too much arachidonic acid but they
are a wonderful source of methyl group contributers which
are also important. Avoid fruit juice and sodas. Prefer berries
to fruit and limit fruit intake. Avoid all foods from McDs and
Burger King. Avoid potatoes and french frys. Avoiding the
grains may also be needed by many though some fair well
on the less refined grain that aren't doped up with
additional sugars i.e. nearly all store bought bread be it
"whole grain" or "white". Plus for about 1 in 100 grain gluten
is a "gradual deadly poison" of sorts for those with the celiac
disease.

This is just a tentative view
MikeV - 09 Aug 2009 01:25 GMT
<trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0456acaf-63eb-4022-aead-f0882ee3d3a2@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com...
>> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
>> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> This is just a tentative view

Trig:
Just want to say that I admire your helpful, patient, and non-dogmatic
approach.
Incidentally I have come to rather similar opinions over many years, and
need no meds. as I approach my mid seventies.
Personally, I have concluded that we are probably better off to refer to a
sort of paleo ideal rather than try to read the molecular tea leaves to make
long term decisions.

I am part way through this UCTV lecture on the evils of sugar in the modern
diet. Please give us your assessment of its conclusions when you have time.

"Sugar: The Bitter Truth "
http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=16717

First Aired: 7/27/2009
89 minutes

Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics, Division of
Endocrinology, explores the damage caused by sugary foods. (#16717)

Mike V
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 09 Aug 2009 11:15 GMT
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
> Mike V

I recently saw it, Doctor Lustig does a good job on the topic.
I saw it on Utube as someone provided a link. The Utube video was too
grainy
to get the full value of the speaker charts. It reminded me that
that I should review a modern advanced biochemistry textbook.
When I observe kids and parents, I am shocked
with levels of obesity.

Thanks for the compliment. I try to see some consensus even among
the warring parties.

I am not always wise ................Trig
Ron Peterson - 09 Aug 2009 05:17 GMT
> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
> the other?

What eye disease was your husband's eye doctor concerned about?
Although omega 3 fatty acids are good for a variety health reasons, I
am not aware of any effect of omega 3 on vision.

--
 Ron
MikeV - 09 Aug 2009 13:18 GMT
>> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
>> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as good as
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
>  Ron

There are a few studies around Ron. Here are a couple of articles re ARMD:

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-linked-to-healthy-eyes-meta-analysis
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-may-prevent-blindness-in-the-el
derly-Study

Mike
Ron Peterson - 09 Aug 2009 21:29 GMT
> There are a few studies around Ron. Here are a couple of articles re ARMD:

(Sorry if I broke the links)

> http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-linked-to-healthyey...
> http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-may-prevent-blindnes...

The first paper says that their is positive correlation of ALA with
ARMD which seems at odds with the opposite effects of EPA and DHA.
Perhaps the dietary data is ignoring trans fats.

A friend who was assisting a researcher with dietary effects on eye
health mentioned that they were getting lutein as an important
nutritional factor in reducing eye disease.

--
  Ron
MikeV - 12 Aug 2009 15:21 GMT
>> There are a few studies around Ron. Here are a couple of articles re
>> ARMD:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> --
>   Ron

Lutein is said to be strongly present in the macula, and to be protective of
damage from blue light and beyond.
Antioxidents also appear to protect against cataracts.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Lutein-zeaxanthin-vitamin-E-eyed-for-ca
taracts

Also provides cardio-vascular protection I believe.
Vauxall - 10 Aug 2009 18:53 GMT
On Aug 9, 1:18 pm, "MikeV" <mavid...@att.net> wrote:
> "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote in message
>
> news:34364b3b-1b81-4556-8401-
aa7cc425d310@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

> > On Aug 7, 12:00 pm, Kalmia <tweeny90...@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >> My husband's eye doctor recommended the flaxseed oil, cardiologist
> >> recommended the fish oil.  OK to take both?  Overkill?  One as
good as
> >> the other?
>
> > What eye disease was your husband's eye doctor concerned about?
> > Although omega 3 fatty acids are good for a variety health
reasons, I
> > am not aware of any effect of omega 3 on vision.
>
> > --
> >  Ron
>
> There are a few studies around Ron. Here are a couple of articles re
ARMD:

> http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-linked-to-healthy-
ey...http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Omega-3-may-prevent-
blindnes...
> Mike

Full text is here:

http://press.psprings.co.uk/bjo/june/bj143412.pdf
 
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